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[SneakersSO]

Do we know this didn't happen, out are we just assuming?

She said they moved her laterally within the company and took away her public-facing privileges when the pressure escalated a few weeks ago, likely once The Wayne Foundation became involved.

And whatever the job was, both Allison & Nintendo have said the nature of this position & its discovery are what lead to her termination. Some companies have zero-tolerance policies, especially for people who are meant to be their public speaking faces & their conduct. Nintendo fired a well known rep recently for speaking on a podcast without permission.

It sounds like, more than anything, people are mostly upset that GG is walking away with a sense of victory from this, and are resentful towards Nintendo for appearing to provide them that.

 

[Meier]

So maybe if that's what it is, then people should rage against it in the hopes of trying to change it so that they won't continue to do so in the future.

I mean, the reality is that they have to do it in the future. Publicly traded companies are beholden to their shareholders. If an employee is doing something that can be construed as damaging to a brand, then the company has almost no choice but to get rid of them. Corporate culture exists in such a manner that it needs to exist.

It sounds like, more than anything, people are mostly upset that GG is walking away with a sense of victory from this, and are resentful towards Nintendo for appearing to provide them that.

I think this is true. It's really unfortunate that "they" (who "they" are is unknown to me. The only guys I know associated with GG are the dude from Chuck/Firefly and someone named Milo that DCharlie hates) are likely feeling some sense of accomplishment from this but the end result is not a particularly surprising one.

 

[kiryogi]

No-one in the institutions do they teach you how to start a revolution, but you gotta start somewhere. Accepting the status quo when the status quo is a blow after blow of no no no is a stupid thing to do.

So...anyone got any idea how we start a revolution rather than just talking about it?

Get out and vote, get others to come out and vote. Or even caucus. The caucus chair at my precinct made it distinctly clear that we were here on behalf of our neighbors, because hell, they're not showing up themselves. Write to your congressmen about these issues. A lot of this corporate mentality stems from capitalist figures holding all the power thus being able to influence workers rights as such. But folks refuse to turn out to vote unless it's a presidential election year.

 

[cartographer]

I sent an email to Nintendo today, it was short and to the point. Basically, that I've been a life-long fan and am disappointed with how the situation was handled. I closed my email by saying "Please spare me the canned PR response, I'm not looking for an answer, I just need to express my sincere disappointment." And of course, they emailed me the canned PR response. Thanks for reading my email :/

This thread is a bit frustrating in that a lot of us want to discuss the larger issue of how Nintendo handled the situation, not the fact that she was fired (which may have been justified). But it's hard to argue that is what we should be talking about when the thread is titled 'Alison Rapp fired...'. I might message the mods later to see if we can start a second thread where we can discuss how Nintendo should've handled things.

Yeah, there's really two things going on: 1) Nintendo's silence and poor handling of this situation and how that relates to the ongoing problems in the games industry when it comes to dealing with misogyny and harassment, and 2) Rapp's employment status.

No. 2 sucks, and it shouldn't be minimized, but it is magnified by No. 1, which affects the entire industry.

Rapp herself has consistently tried to shift the conversation back to No. 1, as have many in this thread. But it's not sticking. (And to be fair, I've discussed No. 2 in these past two threads, as well. And though I've believe I've mostly done it to relate back to No. 1, I'm sure I could have done much better).

 

[diaspora]

Why not both? Both are problems worth discussing. There's more meaningful discussion that can be had there than with the "i dunno, maybe Alison DESERVED to be fired and subject to all this harassment" type stuff which was making the thread nasty a few pages ago (not referring to you ofc)




Amen.

I just find that it won't enact the change I want to see. I don't see change happening until the moderation of toilets like Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook undergoes a major overhaul. Moot didn't give a fuck, the 4Chan mods went nuclear and drew a line in the sand with gamergate discussion. The idea that these platforms can't do it while 4ch can strains credulity. I would have absolutely preferred to see Nintendo express solidarity with harassed employees but to me it's needed if inessential.

 

[jstripes]

lol twitter doesn't 'welcome misogynists and racists to use their platform as a means of discrimination and harassment'

thats a really stupid statement

Twitter may not "welcome" them, but they certainly don't turn them away at the door.

 

[TheBaldEmperor]

I am relatively surprised that she lasted as long as she did. She was posting about divisive social issues despite being instructed not to, soliciting gifts, and tweeting NSFW pictures of herself. It seems Nintendo was at the very least tolerant of all that stuff, when I'd expect such a conservative company to completely flip out.

So why did they drop the hammer now? The "second job" bit strikes me as a facade or false pretense, or maybe it's just the straw that broke the camel's back.

I largely feel the same. She was allowed to have a second job. Nintendo didn't feel the job was something becoming to a Nintendo employee.

 

[notworksafe]

No-one in the institutions do they teach you how to start a revolution, but you gotta start somewhere. Accepting the status quo when the status quo is a blow after blow of no no no is a stupid thing to do.

So...anyone got any idea how we start a revolution rather than just talking about it?

Create your own company. Run it how you want and make policies that you approve of and are accepting to all. Then (most important part) become successful and tell others exactly what you did to become that way.

Raging from the outside isn't gonna do too much.

 

[diaspora]

lol twitter doesn't 'welcome misogynists and racists to use their platform as a means of discrimination and harassment'

thats a really stupid statement

Fucking 4chan has better moderation at this point.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Nah, they were between a rock and a hard place.

Either defend the person who is accused of holding pro-pedophile opinions and risk the story gaining traktion with mainstream media (the absolutely worst case scenario imaginable), or be hated by the small amount of people on the internet who care because they held their head low (not good, but far preferable).

Uhhh...

this shit was literally on my Facebook alerts (and I don't follow her or Nintendo on fbook)

It's everywhere

 

[Not]

Listen, I'm a feminist too and hate the harassment bullshit too, but you are accusing Nintendo of a lot of things without hard facts to back them up, which is not unlike those in the thread trying to talk about the photos and thesis being reasons for her being let go. I'm not saying Nintendo might not have done the things you allege them of, just that it is going a lot on speculation. The only guilty party we know of for sure here is GG.

Let me know if I have this right-- if I'm allowed to speculate negatively against Nintendo based on the evidence at hand as well as their prior stances in situations like this, I'm no better than the mouthbreathers who spurted the completely unfounded accusations against Rapp that created this whole shitshow in the first place?

Come on. Why shouldn't I go after the multibillion dollar company before the lone harrassment-targeted employee? Why does one deserve a fairer shake, especially given the likelihood of Rapp's personal testimony compared to Nintendo's carefully-worded "please stop talking about this" press release?

 

[moondoggerr]

So hows Republican obstructionism going? Yes, this is a horrific issue, but most of the solutions on display so far have been really been made with a reasonable thought. Everyone's simply calling for Nintendo's head like a angry mob kind of like the right wing themselves with Obama. There's no good solution here with the current status quo as some have stated. TBH, some of the supportive mentalities I see in here are bordering on Tea party extremists with their ideals.

I haven't seen anyone calling for Nintendo's head.

 

[Mental Atrophy]

I sent an email to Nintendo today, it was short and to the point. Basically, that I've been a life-long fan and am disappointed with how the situation was handled. I closed my email by saying "Please spare me the canned PR response, I'm not looking for an answer, I just need to express my sincere disappointment." And of course, they emailed me the canned PR response. Thanks for reading my email :/

It seems likely that they're required by policy to reply to everything in some fashion.

 

[Bumbletron]

Again, you're running into the same trouble of making the conversation about Rapp, and whether or not she deserved to be fired (borderline victim blaming), when the actual conversation is Nintendo choosing to remain silent in the face of online harassment of their employee and then a subsequent dismissal of her.

Would Nintendo speaking out have helped? If they made a statement it would have invariably escalated it into a much bigger news story. The smear campaign would have increased and painted Rapp in a negative light to a great deal more people. This could have led to detriments in future employment and much more psychological harm to her and her family. Nintendo issuing more of a statement may have helped, but it may have hurt her a lot more.

And although many chose to assume by default that Nintendo did nothing, I don't believe we should assume so. There are a great many things Nintendo could have done behind the scenes. Many companies I've worked for offer therapy for any personal issues, for instance. I'm not saying this is anything but baseless speculation, but I think it is far more likely than Nintendo doing absolutely nothing at all to help. I hope, at least.

Harassment needs to stop, but this seems like a lose/lose situation for all parties but one.

Let me know if I have this right-- if I'm allowed to speculate negatively against Nintendo based on the evidence at hand as well as their prior stances in situations like this, I'm no better than the mouthbreathers who spurted the completely unfounded accusations against Rapp that created this whole shitshow in the first place?

Come on. Why shouldn't I go after the multibillion dollar company before the lone harrassment-targeted employee? Why does one deserve a fairer shake, especially given the likelihood of Rapp's personal testimony compared to Nintendo's carefully-worded "please stop talking about this" press release?

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I get you're upset, but you are jumping a lot to conclusions and trying to make the world a black and white system. I was talking about those who are in this thread, despise GG, yet still bring up the photos and thesis as justified reasons Nintendo could have fired her. My point is speculation is speculation. I'm not saying you should go after the employee or the company. You know who we should be going after.

 

[SneakersSO]

Uhhh...

this shit was literally on my Facebook alerts (and I don't follow her or Nintendo on fbook)

It's everywhere

I've seen this literally nowhere outside of GAF. And I have tons of industry figureheads on my FB timeline.

 

[weekev]

Get out and vote, write to your congressmen about these issues. A lot of this corporate mentality stems from capitalist figures holding all the power thus being able to influence workers rights as such. But folks refuse to turn out to vote unless it's a presidential election year.

See I live in Scotland, I vote SNP and voted for independence (although we lost that) maybe I'll get rich and start a political party encouraging socialism in an accessible way, get rid of tories and labour and have a more liberal culture of acceptance and where hatred and oppression is outwardly opposed instead of being ignored.

 

[EatinOlives]

Here's the thing - a smear campaign is ongoing between a singular person & a group of people. What exactly is the individual's employer supposed to do about quelling the harassment campaign? They're not the primary platform holder for where the majority of these attacks were taking place (Twitter).

Nintendo is responsible for providing a safe, harassment-free work environment to all of its employees, but that doesn't extend to the individual's social media accounts. Nintendo also has a responsibility to hear information on the activities of their representatives & employees when its presented to them, regardless of the source. Failing to do so can become a problem in the workplace, not to mention the legal liability it could become.

Yes, its fucking TERRIBLE that whatever it was came out through the efforts of a hate movement. But that doesn't mean it must be ignored.

They could, for one, make a brief statement about her lack of involvement in a particular localization. Yes, yes, we all know Nintendo likes to keep a tight lid in how it makes its sausage, but I'm applying their own logic to them: do something if something problematic about one of their public employees comes to light.

But at the end of the day the problem isn't just that they didn't do anything to defend her while the smear campaign was ongoing. It's that they ignored the smear campaign UNTIL said campaign turned up something that they didn't like. If they weren't going to get involved, they needed to be consistent and not get involved. They know that GG was doing it to get her fired, and they fired her anyway. They did exactly what a misogynist hate group wanted them to do, and now GG will double down in doing this shit for other women in the industry they don't like because it already worked.

I agree that Nintendo's reasons for firing her were in accordance to their policies. The BIGGER problem here, the one that actually has ramifications in the industry, isn't her moonlight job and Nintendo's policy, it's what firing her means. It's bigger than them, and they should (and do) know better, but they took the easy way out instead of doing what's right. Of course cynics will go "that's corporate for ya!!" but I'm not interested in easy, complacent answers.

 

[Quadraphonic]

Do we know this didn't happen, out are we just assuming?

There's a lot of assumptions all around. We still have no confirmation of what the second job is, just simply that there are risque photos around with her posing with her company's products, and accompanying links to an Amazon wish list of various items.

The key issue right now is we don't know 100% whether or not the "second job" is related to the risque photos. We do know she used a pseudonym for it, and some extrapolate that to mean that if she went that far to not show her name, she wouldn't dare mention it on the main Twitter account, like posting photos. But photos were posted, but with no real explanation about their origin or purpose. So there's disagreement over if there is that link or not.

Originally when this all happened, she didn't elaborate on the reasons for being fired, letting followers fill in the blanks, and minds ran wild. Once Nintendo offered their reasoning, she elaborated, also murking the discussion a bit conflating "second jobs aren't allowed" with "second jobs that conflict with the company aren't allowed", but still defends that holding an outside job is allowed, but she didn't elaborate on the nature of it.

So it seems right now a lot of the discussion is being fueled by assumptions.

Ultimately, my opinion is that she was unfairly targeted, but they did find a fire-able offense, so that's why they took that action.

Risque photos on their own are fine, but when they involve the products that you represent during your day job that's where the conflict of interest comes in, sending VERY mixed messages. If Nintendo chose not to act, then it would appear they endorse such behavior by omission of action. And that is making the assumption it relates to her second job.

We also must keep in mind that she's been warned by her bosses about her public persona on multiple occasions before anybody started targeting her. (Unless GG started harassing her back in 2014.) So instead of treading lightly, she kept on being herself, discussing what she believes in.

Building on that, the discussion about Nintendo's reaction to it hinges on whether this was the last straw for her or not. If they had done a "please take these posts down" request or "please leave your other job" statement before letting her go, that would probably ease this discussion a lot, but neither party is stating that.

 

[diaspora]

They could, for one, make a brief statement about her lack of involvement in a particular localization. Yes, yes, we all know Nintendo likes to keep a tight lid in how it makes its sausage, but I'm applying their own logic to them: do something if something problematic about one of their public employees comes to light.

But at the end of the day the problem isn't just that they didn't do anything to defend her while the smear campaign was ongoing. It's that they ignored the smear campaign UNTIL said campaign turned up something that they didn't like. They know that GG was doing it to get her fired, and they fired her. They did exactly what a misogynist hate group wanted them to do, and now GG will double down in doing this shit for other women in the industry they don't like because it already worked.

I agree that Nintendo's reasons for firing her were in accordance to their policies. The BIGGER problem here, the one that actually has ramifications in the industry, isn't her moonlight job and Nintendo's policy, it's what firing them means. It's bigger than them, and they should (and do) know better, but they took the easy way out instead of doing what's right. Of course cynics will go "that's corporate for ya!!" but I'm not interested in easy, complacent answers.

Well imo the bigger problem is that these fools have a platform to organize and execute thier harassment and discrimination. Which still baffles me.

 

[Not]

Do we know this didn't happen, out are we just assuming?

I don't know anymore than you do, but I was inferring that such talks, if handled correctly, may have had a better chance of leading to a more desirable situation for Rapp than what happened, and may have made it look less like online harrassment led to her getting fired from her job.

 

[domlolz]

Fucking 4chan has better moderation at this point.

well 4chan doesn't have to moderate against harassment and stuff because (pretty much) everyone is anonymous, so you can't really compare them.

 

[diaspora]

I don't know anymore than you do, but I was inferring that such talks, if handled correctly, may have had a better chance of leading to a more desirable situation for Rapp than what happened, and may have made it look less like online harrassment led to her getting fired from her job.

I don't agree with your conclusion, but I get where you're coming from.

well 4chan doesn't have to moderate against harassment and stuff because (pretty much) everyone is anonymous, so you can't really compare them.

4chan openly bans any and all gamergate discussion or any other discussions involving harassment/doxxing.

 

[EatinOlives]

Well imo the bigger problem is that these fools have a platform to organize and execute thier harassment and discrimination. Which still baffles me.

Indeed. And internet hate groups have always been a thing, but they only become a significant thing if they're empowered. It's sad that Nintendo has effectively chosen to empower them by firing Alison.

 

[Cyrano]

The reality is people don't want to lose their jobs because they need their income. Speaking out against someone who you rely on to pay your rent isn't that appealing to most people. If you really want to change a company then get into a position where you can actually do so which typically means taking your lumps and keeping your head down when at the bottom of the food chain. There's a reason why so many rich celebrities etc can say whatever the hell they want.

If you want to change a company you're going to have to take risks and the less risks you take, the less likely you are to change anything. Nintendo's own regressive reaction is the exact opposite of what they should be doing, especially if they are intending to promote themselves as inclusive.

The belief that anyone should "take their lumps" without question is patently absurd, regardless of their situation. Even worse, the idea that they should have to in order to secure their income is horrifying. Stating "that's just how things are" doesn't excuse myopic behavior.

Not even sure what rich celebrities have to do with it, but if you genuinely believe there was a point at which those people accepted "their lumps" and didn't fight for themselves at every moment, I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[diaspora]

Indeed. And internet hate groups have always been a thing, but they only become a significant thing if they're empowered. It's sad that Nintendo has effectively chosen to empower them by firing Alison.

I can't argue for/against the firing without knowing the information that belongs squarely between Rapp and her former employer. What I can argue for is Twitter and Reddit moderation to go nuclear on gamergate.

 

[stuminus3]

I'm especially curious about what sparked Gamergate to entirely reverse their stance on ethics and video games and turn against the animu pantsu they until now so fervently embraced and to harass a women for agreeing with their stated goals and writing a college thesis is support of their claimed ideals.

I don't like to resort to simple insults but I honestly think it's because they're as dumb as a bag of rocks. Their parents failed them. Their education system failed them. They honestly believe the things they do because they're literally too stupid to know any better.

That's why I think it's important for the video game industry to be more proactive. To reach out and educate. If the best they've got is to gaze at their shoes and complain that harassment is wrong after the fact then it's already too late. And make no bones about it, the video game industry have unfortunately been sending these people the wrong message for far too many years.

Some may point to the targeted harassment as a sign that these people are actually super intelligent, but I don't think so. Anyone can use Google and MS Paint. The fact that they can sustain such attacks for so long without it ever occurring to themselves how absurd they are tells me they're not playing with a full deck.

 

[kiryogi]

If you want to change a company you're going to have to take risks and the less risks you take, the less likely you are to change anything. Nintendo's own regressive reaction is the exact opposite of what they should be doing, especially if they are intending to promote themselves as inclusive.

The belief that anyone should "take their lumps" without question is patently absurd, regardless of their situation. Even worse, the idea that they should have to in order to secure their income is horrifying. Stating "that's just how things are" doesn't excuse myopic behavior.

Not even sure what rich celebrities have to do with it, but if you genuinely believe there was a point at which those people accepted "their lumps" and didn't fight for themselves at every moment, I have a bridge to sell you.

It is absurd, but you are the employee and they're the employer. Who determines who has a job or not? Certainly not you. What you're asking for is organizing and unionism, which corporations have taken massive steps against to union bust and more. If they get a hint of folks organizing, you can bet they'll take action to terminate you or mitigate it. That is how labor laws work in America, or more so the how weak they are.

 

[Not]

The more you dig into this mess the more you realize that GGers are a human centipede eating their own tail.

Fascinating point that article makes, but it seems to differentiate unbalanced standards of female modesty from exclusively female sexual objectification, which are really just two forms of the same basic misogynistic practices. Either way, the presentation of women is inequitably controlled.

 

[RichiRamjag]

So maybe if that's what it is, then people should rage against it in the hopes of trying to change it so that they won't continue to do so in the future.

Most of us would be out of work before that happens.

 

[moondoggerr]

It is absurd, but you are the employee and they're the employer. Who determines who has a job or not? Certainly not you. What you're asking for is organizing and unionism, which corporations have taken massive steps against to union bust and more. If they get a hint of folks organizing, you can bet they'll take action to terminate you or mitigate it. That is how labor laws work in America, or more so the how weak they are.

Organizing and unions are good things.

 

[SneakersSO]

They could, for one, make a brief statement about her lack of involvement in a particular localization. Yes, yes, we all know Nintendo likes to keep a tight lid in how it makes its sausage, but I'm applying their own logic to them: do something if something problematic about one of their public employees comes to light.

But at the end of the day the problem isn't just that they didn't do anything to defend her while the smear campaign was ongoing. It's that they ignored the smear campaign UNTIL said campaign turned up something that they didn't like. If they weren't going to get involved, they needed to be consistent and not get involved. They know that GG was doing it to get her fired, and they fired her anyway. They did exactly what a misogynist hate group wanted them to do, and now GG will double down in doing this shit for other women in the industry they don't like because it already worked.

I agree that Nintendo's reasons for firing her were in accordance to their policies. The BIGGER problem here, the one that actually has ramifications in the industry, isn't her moonlight job and Nintendo's policy, it's what firing her means. It's bigger than them, and they should (and do) know better, but they took the easy way out instead of doing what's right. Of course cynics will go "that's corporate for ya!!" but I'm not interested in easy, complacent answers.

So heres the thing - nothing about her second job has, fortunately, come to light (at least to my knowledge). You're Nintendo. And you discover, before it goes public, that a public face of your company, that you moved out of the public spotlight a few weeks ago specifically to try and deescalate the negative attention an ongoing hate campaign against this person had brought onto your company, has had a moonlighting job that you deem unsavory to your corporate interests. Do you risk hanging onto the employee or waiting until the news of this 2nd job getting out & becoming a national story?

When Nintendo does something right, they have to do whats right by them & their other employees as well. You're saying the entirety of Nintendo should sacrifice itself because some bad stuff about one of their public faces came to light?

Here's the reality - we now live in an age of weaponized social media outrage. Pure & Simple. For years, we used these tactics against targets The Internet deemed to be harmful or problematic. We got people fired or removed from positions of power & influence, and people celebrated. We never thought that ideological opponents would use these same tactics against us, but this was bound to happen. This is political escalation. You cannot expect a company, or any company, to now sit there & ignore public outcry when we have basically spent the last decade teaching corporations to react to any & all public outcry. Adding onto to that, the double whammy in this case, where a group like The Wayne Foundation is accusing said employee of supporting pedophilia culture, and you can begin to appreciate just how difficult of a position Nintendo was really in.

The internet was well aware that Allison had nothing to do with the Fire Emblem localization. That isn't why she was being targeted. She had been targeted for years prior to the FE localization fiasco. She was targeted because she was an outspoken ideological opponent to these people, and she was employed in a highly public organization. You're right in that, going forward, people who are deemed ideological opponents of theirs are going to have to dot their i's and cross their t's on social media. Its an unfortunate reality for the internet now.

 

[NimbusD]

So hows Republican obstructionism going? Yes, this is a horrific issue, but most of the solutions on display so far have been really been made without a reasonable thought. Everyone's simply calling for Nintendo's head like a angry mob kind of like the right wing themselves with Obama. There's no good solution here with the current status quo as some have stated. TBH, some of the supportive mentalities I see in here are bordering on Tea party extremists with their ideals.

Wat? You're likening this to someone who's not doing their job and actively trying to prevent other people from being able to do their jobs?

Criticism is not obstructionist.

 

[Draxal]

Well imo the bigger problem is that these fools have a platform to organize and execute thier harassment and discrimination. Which still baffles me.

Completely agreed here, didn't the twitter ceo state about a year ago that they have to do a better job, and nothing's changed.

 

[blankempathy]

If you want to change a company you're going to have to take risks and the less risks you take, the less likely you are to change anything. Nintendo's own regressive reaction is the exact opposite of what they should be doing, especially if they are intending to promote themselves as inclusive.

The belief that anyone should "take their lumps" without question is patently absurd, regardless of their situation. Even worse, the idea that they should have to in order to secure their income is horrifying. Stating "that's just how things are" doesn't excuse myopic behavior.

Not even sure what rich celebrities have to do with it, but if you genuinely believe there was a point at which those people accepted "their lumps" and didn't fight for themselves at every moment, I have a bridge to sell you.

What world do you live in where people don't have to worry about living expenses? Sure it's nice to believe that things should be better but they're not. Many people live pay check to paycheck. Many people have worse jobs then working at nintendo and yet stick with them because they have to. It would be great if everyone had the job they wanted and could be themselves but we're not there yet. Which again means people who want to change things for the better should work their way up to the top where they can change corporate policies because they have the power to do so. If you want to change the system from the outside you are free to try. However changing it from the inside is a possible alternative.

 

[TM94]

I am relatively surprised that she lasted as long as she did. She was posting about divisive social issues despite being instructed not to, soliciting gifts, and tweeting NSFW pictures of herself. It seems Nintendo was at the very least tolerant of all that stuff, when I'd expect such a conservative company to completely flip out.

So why did they drop the hammer now? The "second job" bit strikes me as a facade or false pretense, or maybe it's just the straw that broke the camel's back.

Completely agree.

It's just insanity to broach issues like that.

 

[Cyrano]

It is absurd, but you are the employee and they're the employer. Who determines who has a job or not? Certainly not you. What you're asking for is organizing and unionism, which corporations have taken massive steps against to union bust and more. If they get a hint of folks organizing, you can bet they'll take action to terminate you or mitigate it. That is how labor laws work in America, or more so the how weak they are.

As part of a union in America, I agree with your concerns about labor laws. But I've also worked at businesses in states without such protection, and regardless of the arguments that are continually on display here, the corporate structure does take note of how people react to their decisions, assuming they are public-facing. They do make decisions both from the outside and the inside, and the internet has forced more businesses out of their comfortable bubbles than ever before. Kicking and screaming maybe, but unless people let them know there's a problem, it's a sure thing the problem continues unabated.

I agree that the labor laws and the treatment of unions in the US are awful, but that's not really the point of this discussion.

 

[domlolz]

4chan openly bans any and all gamergate discussion or any other discussions involving harassment/doxxing.

oh.

then again terrorist groups are allowed to use twitter freely so they should do something about that before they tackle the pointless culture war that is gamergate

 

[blankempathy]

As part of a union in America, I agree with your concerns about labor laws. But I've also worked at businesses in states without such protection, and regardless of the arguments that are continually on display here, the corporate structure does take note of how people react to their decisions, assuming they are public-facing. They do make decisions both from the outside and the inside, and the internet has forced more businesses out of their comfortable bubbles than ever before. Kicking and screaming maybe, but unless people let them know there's a problem, it's a sure thing the problem continues unabated.

I agree that the labor laws and the treatment of unions in the US are awful, but that's not really the point of this discussion.

Look I agree public outcry can force companies to change certain policies but at the same time it hasn't solved everything either. I'm not arguing against speaking out. I'm saying there's more then one path to take.

 

[Schnozberry]

Organizing and unions are good things.

Then everybody would be fired and they'd hire people on a contract basis with no formal employment. That precedent has already been set in the IT World with H1b's.

 

[Sianos]

I don't like to resort to simple insults but I honestly think it's because they're as dumb as a bag of rocks. Their parents failed them. Their education system failed them. They honestly believe the things they do because they're literally too stupid to know any better.

That's why I think it's important for the video game industry to be more proactive. To reach out and educate. If the best they've got is to gaze at their shoes and complain that harassment is wrong after the fact then it's already too late. And make no bones about it, the video game industry have unfortunately been sending these people the wrong message for far too many years.

Some may point to the targeted harassment as a sign that these people are actually super intelligent, but I don't think so. Anyone can use Google and MS Paint. The fact that they can sustain such attacks for so long without it ever occurring to themselves how absurd they are tells me they're not playing with a full deck.

I agree that the true believers who actually think they are fighting for "ethics in video games" are indeed just... not very skilled at abstract thought and maintaining cognitive consistency. They have been let down by our ineffective education systems and taught to reject any attempts at actually helping them learn some critical thinking skills.

I think that the organizers behind Gamergate, the ones directing who to harass and what the talking points of the day are, are not quite as devoid of intellect. Certainly not intelligent, very certainly deluded, but composed enough to set an agenda for themselves and actually follow it. Difference is, these people do not hold the stated "ethics in video games" malarkey as anything more than a convenient smokescreen and a means to an end. Their real goal as demonstrated by their actions is to harass women out of gaming to prevent market forces and the lure of money from convincing developers to stop excluding women - which would mean that mainstream developers would no longer be exclusively pandering to them in a manner that pushes away others. And plenty of people just ride along to have an excuse to further bash women and spread the toxicity of the alt right: people like Milo who just a couple of years ago dismissed all video game players as manchildren.

 

[Neoleo2143]

This was a rather lose/lose situation, though perhaps an early response by Nintendo could've cause some backdown, or it could've caused further backlash, the issue was up when the Wayne Foundation got involved and completely threw off the risk balance and it seems that them getting involved was inevitable at some point. Keeping Alison became a significantly bigger risk than than firing her. It's all theoretical but at least I hope Alison was provided some counseling by Nintendo. It's rather evident that there was no "right" call here.

Now as for GG, I honestly have no idea how to handle that, it's like Anonymous if they were far more malicious in terms of goals. The only possibility I see is to somehow cause the group to internally dissolve itself, in fighting to confuse the voice. The issue is that GG is a negative group not unlike the KKK, it's easier to unite in Anger and Rage than it is to promote positive attitudes and progression, especially with the little risk to the individual that the internet seemingly presents (It's a bit of a Farce as this event has shown us).

Another possibility that has been brought up has been to have Twitter better moderate the posts, and I see this as the best solution in the short term. It would be wise to at least attempt to remove the platform that Hate-speech stands on.

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

So heres the thing - nothing about her second job has, fortunately, come to light (at least to my knowledge). You're Nintendo. And you discover, before it goes public, that a public face of your company, that you moved out of the public spotlight a few weeks ago specifically to try and deescalate the negative attention an ongoing hate campaign against this person had brought onto your company, has had a moonlighting job that you deem unsavory to your corporate interests. Do you risk hanging onto the employee or waiting until the news of this 2nd job getting out & becoming a national story?

I'd say this paragraph needs a whole lot more "what if"s and other speculative indicators in it, or you need to pony up something that indicates that the second job was something unsavory enough that a national story would stem from it.

Because for all we know, that second job could have been that she accepted a staff writing position for a feminist blog under a pen name, which would do neither of those things but would likely send Nintendo corporate into a panic.

 

[Griss]

I don't like to resort to simple insults but I honestly think it's because they're as dumb as a bag of rocks. Their parents failed them. Their education system failed them. They honestly believe the things they do because they're literally too stupid to know any better.

That's why I think it's important for the video game industry to be more proactive. To reach out and educate. If the best they've got is to gaze at their shoes and complain that harassment is wrong after the fact then it's already too late. And make no bones about it, the video game industry have unfortunately been sending these people the wrong message for far too many years.

Some may point to the targeted harassment as a sign that these people are actually super intelligent, but I don't think so. Anyone can use Google and MS Paint. The fact that they can sustain such attacks for so long without it ever occurring to themselves how absurd they are tells me they're not playing with a full deck.

My read of the situation is the exact opposite. These people are intelligent trolls. They see the hypocrisy clearly, they just don't care. They want to attack people and hurt people, and the 'ethics in video games' stuff was only ever a cloak with which to recruit people. As we can see in this case, they're good at research, good at finding corporate pressure points, and good at recruiting unwitting people who don't have the proper context to see through the poison etc.

Trolls have been around forever.

 

[Boy Wander]

Again, you're running into the same trouble of making the conversation about Rapp, and whether or not she deserved to be fired (borderline victim blaming), when the actual conversation is Nintendo choosing to remain silent in the face of online harassment of their employee, then silence and reposition her, and then a subsequent dismissal of her.

No. There are two points of discussion. One, which I think most could agree on, is the lack of support and repositioning being bang out of order and akin to silently supporting gg. The second point is about why she was fired and whether or not you choose to believe the two are related. What I think is plain wrong, is people saying that Nintendo shouldn't care what else she was getting up to. Only people who have literally no commercial experience could come up with such a statement and believe it to be true.

 

[Sianos]

oh.

then again terrorist groups are allowed to use twitter freely so they should do something about that before they tackle the pointless culture war that is gamergate

i'd address this post but what about talking about whataboutism!!

did you know that whataboutism is also called whataboutery? i didn't, until now that is!

anyways... how about twitter... this might blow your mind, so ground yourself and put on a safety helmet... bans both hardline right religous terrorist groups and western alternate right hate groups?!

 

[Schnozberry]

Completely agree.

It's just insanity to broach issues like that.

I think she definitely crossed some lines on Twitter as a public representative of her company.

Whether she ever would have been fired for it without the GG harassment is another thing altogether. She was under scrutiny after attention was drawn to her social media posting, and I'd have a hard time believing that Nintendo wouldn't have had some problems with some of it.

The explanation of her second gig was a bit odd as well. She kind of moved right along past the point that she was using a fake name to work anonymously, which was probably what got her fired. Even the most progressive companies wouldn't tolerate a PR employee saying what she did on twitter and working a second gig under a fake name, no matter how talented or well respected you are. That part seems lost on her, which is a bit puzzling. I think Nintendo was entirely justified in letting her go, but the fact that GG was the catalyst that caused them to scrutinize her is what will keep people pissed off about it for eternity.

 

[EatinOlives]

So heres the thing - nothing about her second job has, fortunately, come to light (at least to my knowledge). You're Nintendo. And you discover, before it goes public, that a public face of your company, that you moved out of the public spotlight a few weeks ago specifically to try and deescalate the negative attention an ongoing hate campaign against this person had brought onto your company, has had a moonlighting job that you deem unsavory to your corporate interests. Do you risk hanging onto the employee or waiting until the news of this 2nd job getting out & becoming a national story?

When Nintendo does something right, they have to do whats right by them & their other employees as well. You're saying the entirety of Nintendo should sacrifice itself because some bad stuff about one of their public faces came to light?

Here's the reality - we now live in an age of weaponized social media outrage. Pure & Simple. For years, we used these tactics against targets The Internet deemed to be harmful or problematic. We got people fired or removed from positions of power & influence, and people celebrated. We never thought that ideological opponents would use these same tactics against us, but this was bound to happen. This is political escalation. You cannot expect a company, or any company, to now sit there & ignore public outcry when we have basically spent the last decade teaching corporations to react to any & all public outcry. Adding onto to that, the double whammy in this case, where a group like The Wayne Foundation is accusing said employee of supporting pedophilia culture, and you can begin to appreciate just how difficult of a position Nintendo was really in.

The internet was well aware that Allison had nothing to do with the Fire Emblem localization. That isn't why she was being targeted. She had been targeted for years prior to the FE localization fiasco. She was targeted because she was an outspoken ideological opponent to these people, and she was employed in a highly public organization. You're right in that, going forward, people who are deemed ideological opponents of theirs are going to have to dot their i's and cross their t's on social media. Its an unfortunate reality for the internet now.

I understand the reality of why Nintendo chose to fire her and what could happen if they completely ignored it, but there's a very large spectrum of choices other than "completely ignore public outcry to the point where your entire corporation is in danger" and "fire her ass immediately". You mention that corporations have been essentially taught that they need to react to any and all public outcry, but they actually didn't do that. They didn't react to the outcry when there was a large smear campaign against Alison, they simply sat by the sidelines because engaging with the smear campaign was inconvenient for them. But they only listened when it was convenient to listen, and surprise surprise, it was only to fire her. So they took the worst of both worlds by reacting only when it involved marginalizing an outspoken feminist, someone whose personality wasn't a secret and Nintendo obviously was fine with.

Nintendo's own logic is not consistent here. I don't buy the notion that their hand has been forced simply because the GG doxxing revealed something they didn't like about Alison. If that's truly the case then Nintendo's a LOT more easy to manipulate than they try to let on. No, what's more likely is that Alison's outpsoken, socially progressive personality was convenient for them until it wasn't, and the minute it wasn't they showed her the door because it was the easier thing to do.

 

[Cyrano]

What world do you live in where people don't have to worry about living expenses? Sure it's nice to believe that things should be better but they're not. Many people live pay check to paycheck. Many people have worse jobs then working at nintendo and yet stick with them because they have to. It would be great if everyone had the job they wanted and could be themselves but we're not there yet. Which again means people who want to change things for the better should work their way up to the top where they can change corporate policies because they have the power to do so. If you want to change the system from the outside you are free to try. However changing it from the inside is a possible alternative.

This is a very old way of looking at business structure. Who is "outside" and who is "inside" continues to blur further everyday. What's more, most people who are "at the top" of corporate structures (especially US ones) probably aren't from the company internally. Anymore, it is not uncommon for much of the corporate structure to simply be chosen from among a cadre of known entities, and becoming someone known for that usually meant you did something that got a lot of attention. In other words, you took a big risk and it had a large impact. It's relatively rare for a person to work up from being rank-and-file to being a person capable of directly influencing policy. What rank-and-file can do is discuss their issues on a public forum, which will then reach people who can make policy decisions, rather than taking it to their boss who likely doesn't have power to make the changes they want to see. It's far easier to get the attention of someone in a position of power when there are ten-thousand people stating they are seeing the same problem, than when one rank-and-file member of their work force makes a complaint about it.

Look, you might be right. There might be a way to do exactly what you want. But it's likely going to be slow, highly bureaucratic, and unlikely to lead to a long-term solution to ills that may not even be relevant by the time you're in the position to make such a decision. I think it's far more effective to speak to power directly than try to filter your way through a misguided business so you can (maybe) eventually influence the decisions you find problematic.

 

[kiryogi]

As part of a union in America, I agree with your concerns about labor laws. But I've also worked at businesses in states without such protection, and regardless of the arguments that are continually on display here, the corporate structure does take note of how people react to their decisions, assuming they are public-facing. They do make decisions both from the outside and the inside, and the internet has forced more businesses out of their comfortable bubbles than ever before. Kicking and screaming maybe, but unless people let them know there's a problem, it's a sure thing the problem continues unabated.

I agree that the labor laws and the treatment of unions in the US are awful, but that's not really the point of this discussion.

I think it is another point of discussion related. A lot of what's going on here is the treatment of females in the industry, and there's really no workers rights that protect them. In fact, there is no workers rights standards in the industry period. At least recently, thanks to Lily ledbetter, was there congressional action to get women paid equally all across any industry. But that said, if there was workers rights in the video game industry, it would lead the industry to be a more inclusive place.

 

[Schnozberry]

I think it is another point of discussion related. A lot of what's going on here is the treatment of females in the industry, and there's really no workers rights that protect them. In fact, there is no workers rights standards in the industry period. At least recently, thanks to Lily ledbetter, was there congressional action to get women paid equally all across any industry. But that said, if there was workers rights in the video game industry, it would lead the industry to be a more inclusive place.

What kind of protections do you have in mind aside from what exists under existing labor law?