Support NeoGAF

[Palpable]

You're misreading.

Divorce sucks in general. But she filed for divorce, meaning she has the grievance.

People are just reacting to the timing.

No married couple gets divorced because they're happy together.

 

[Oersted]

That the sentiment "Innoncent until proven guilty" only comes up when it's about woman being abused. Or was that not the sentiment you were referring to?

I'm not gonna make a scientific study for you(please excuse my distrust based laziness), but here are the threads which pop up when you look for the term:


http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1019413

Rape topic

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1163879&page=1

Rape topic

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1201028

Rape topic

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1178138

Physical assault of women

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1223937

Physical assault of a woman


There is a tendency. Oh yeah, one exception(sort of):

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept intended to ensure that the force of legal punishment for misbehavior isn't dealt out unfairly. Applying it to personal judgment that has no force beyond opinion makes no sense. Nobody in real life ever actually says "well this person was accused of something... but they haven't technically been tried in court... so I must assume they didn't do it...."



It's an observation that some of Valve's more vocal fanbases springs out of places with strongly right-libertarian bents like 4chan and that Valve has generally acted to cultivate these fanbases rather than purposely alienate them as companies like Blizzard and BioWare have done. It's neither a particularly strong claim nor a particularly notable one.

If you prefer you can get to the same conclusion by noting that most game companies are founded by long-time industry people or young starry-eyed idealists while Valve was founded by tech industry millionaires.



A little searching around suggests that specifically because they're incredibly difficult to win, Wrongful Termination suits in the US tend to have seven-figure payouts, so yeah.

 

[Aztechnology]

I wish people weren't just like I'm just a guy on the Internet therefore I don't have to be held responsible for my opinions and statements. Im not saying you should be punished or anything (hello first ammendment), just be aware that your actions do have consequences. You have to realize that for instance if you talk about this to other people and are like "did you hear that Johnny Depp and Amber are getting divorced and he was beating her" you are now complicit in furthering a sentiment that he is essentially guilty of crimes he may or may not have commited. It's a really tough situation because on one hand we want to believe that people are truly good, and that if someone is a victim they can come out and feel they are being heard (pun not intended) but at the same time it's increasingly important that we remain impartial as citizens because we do have alot of power in cases where we are the driving force behind popular media/culture etc.

 

[akira28]

I can understand your reasons for being sceptical and I'd be right there with you if not for the apparent existence of a video.

That's making me lean in one direction, probably more than it should as we haven't actually seen the video or had its existence verified, but I feel with this being so high profile, I doubt anyone would lie about the existence of there being video footage.

That's not to say it can't happen, I just feel in this instance, it would be extremely counter-productive to claim there's footage when there isn't.

thing that makes me wonder is she has a video but the judges ruled in Depp's favor, although they did dissolve the marriage. Was it not what we think or did she not show them?

 

[Cipherr]

This argument is personal to Groovy.

Whoaly shit. Man, really terrible and scary story. That being said, don't take opinions from here so personal. The courts will indeed look over the details and the truth will have its chance to come out, despite anyone here leaning one way or another.

 

[Kinyou]

I'm not gonna make a scientific study for you(please excuse my distrust based laziness), but here are the threads which pop up when you look for the term:


http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1019413

Rape topic

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1163879&page=1

Rape topic

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1201028

Rape topic

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1178138

Physical assault of women

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1223937

Physical assault of a woman


There is a tendency. Oh yeah, one exception(sort of):

Shooting topic

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=107793474#post107793474

Shooting topic

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=977306

Doping topic

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1100652&page=4

Someone accused of selling stolen Uncharted 4 copy

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1211787&page=40

Topic about piracy

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=484411&page=2#post40758107

Of course it's also often showing up in topics about abuse, but it's hardly exclusive

It's anecdotal, but be honest with yourself guy. When you hear about a situation where a man is being abused by a woman, people don't question it, they just say that man is a pussy. Remember when Emma Roberts beat up her boyfriend a few years ago? The first thing people said wasn't "oh he's just lying to hurt her", they just treated it as a big joke.

I'm not saying one reaction is better than the other, but the way it's perceived is pretty obviously different in our society.

I can agree when it's specifically comparing reactions to male and female abuse.

 

[Bad_Boy]

Are you sure?

Yeah after those foreign numbers come in.

Last movie made like 700 mil overseas.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I wish people weren't just like I'm just a guy on the Internet therefore I don't have to be held responsible for my opinions and statements. Im not saying you should be punished or anything (hello first ammendment), just be aware that your actions do have consequences. You have to realize that for instance if you talk about this to other people and are like "did you hear that Johnny Depp and Amber are getting divorced and he was beating her" you are now complicit in furthering a sentiment that he is essentially guilty of crimes he may or may not have commited. It's a really tough situation because on one hand we want to believe that people are truly good, and that if someone is a victim they can come out and feel they are being heard (pun not intended) but at the same time it's increasingly important that we remain impartial as citizens because we do have alot of power in cases where we are the driving force behind popular media/culture etc.

It doesn't help that in non-celebrity cases it is easy for an army of internet vigilantes to pop up and take out their own version of justice without any real proof. We've seen so many times in the past where personal information is released, threats are made, etc. etc.

 

[Oersted]

Shooting topic

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=107793474#post107793474

Shooting topic

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=977306

Doping topic

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1100652&page=4

Someone accused of selling stolen Uncharted 4 copy

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1211787&page=40

Topic about piracy

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=484411&page=2#post40758107

Of course it's also often showing up in topics about abuse, but it's hardly exclusive


I can agree when it's specifically comparing reactions to male and female abuse.

The shooting thread is a comment on the justice system, second one also, the doping is a good example of one person opting out of making a judgement, Uncharted is someone being obtuse and instantly corrected and the piracy one is someone missusing the term and being instantly corrected.

You found 3 people. 2 of them using it wrong/ too late.

I found 5 threads, 2 filled with "innocent until proven guilty".

I would say there is a tendency.

 

[Aztechnology]

It doesn't help that in non-celebrity cases it is easy for an army of internet vigilantes to pop up and take out their own version of justice without any real proof. We've seen so many times in the past where personal information is released, threats are made, etc. etc.

Definitely both people get dragged through the mud in a terrible way due to internet mobs. Even if they "Win" too often they lose because of the harassment they have to endure. I cannot imagine being Depp or Heard right now and the inevitable shit storm that is coming their way.

 

[Kinyou]

The shooting thread is a comment on the justice system, second one also, the doping is a good example of one person opting out of making a judgement, Uncharted is someone being obtuse and instantly corrected and the piracy one is someone missusing the term and being instantly corrected.

You found 3 people. 2 of them using it wrong/ too late.

I found 5 threads, 2 filled with "innocent until proven guilty".

I would say there is a tendency.

I guess we could just keep posting threads but that wouldn't achieve much. But at least you moved from "literally always" to "tendency" which I take less issue with.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I wish people weren't just like I'm just a guy on the Internet therefore I don't have to be held responsible for my opinions and statements. Im not saying you should be punished or anything (hello first ammendment), just be aware that your actions do have consequences. You have to realize that for instance if you talk about this to other people and are like "did you hear that Johnny Depp and Amber are getting divorced and he was beating her" you are now complicit in furthering a sentiment that he is essentially guilty of crimes he may or may not have commited. It's a really tough situation because on one hand we want to believe that people are truly good, and that if someone is a victim they can come out and feel they are being heard (pun not intended) but at the same time it's increasingly important that we remain impartial as citizens because we do have alot of power in cases where we are the driving force behind popular media/culture etc.

You've made up a quote. Has anyone said that?

Regardless, people spread misinformation all the time about all sorts of topics. You're assuming people are idiots who need us to hold their hands through doing research and forming their own opinions. We're not the gatekeepers of any information.

It's not controversial to have a victim say something and then say "I believe this victim." You're blowing it up to something much bigger than it actually is. Why?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

It doesn't help that in non-celebrity cases it is easy for an army of internet vigilantes to pop up and take out their own version of justice without any real proof. We've seen so many times in the past where personal information is released, threats are made, etc. etc.

This is why thinking a person is lying without proof of them lying makes no sense. Why would someone put themselves through this? Sara Schaefer made a video about this phenomenon of distrusting rape victims even though what they've done is put themselves in the crosshairs of the worst of the public.

http://www.funnyordie.com/articles/...e-rape-accusations-as-a-get-rich-quick-scheme

 

[jelly]

Didn't Sean Penn beat the crap out of Madonna?

 

[Vincent Alexander]

This is why thinking a person is lying without proof of them lying makes no sense. Why would someone put themselves through this? Sara Schaefer made a video about this phenomenon of distrusting rape victims even though what they've done is put themselves in the crosshairs of the worst of the public.

http://www.funnyordie.com/articles/...e-rape-accusations-as-a-get-rich-quick-scheme

Maybe it makes no sense to say they are lying, but would you put me in that same category if I simply said I don't feel comfortable making a judgement yet? I don't have the stones to say she is lying. I'd feel like a piece of shit if I did, only for more information to come out pointing to the validity of her claims. But just the same, I'd feel bad lobbing insults at Depp for the same reasons. And I say all of this while agreeing with you that I don't think a person would put themselves through this for no reason. Still, I'm too weary to judge much of anything at this time.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Maybe it makes no sense to say they are lying, but would you put me in that same category if I simply said I don't feel comfortable making a judgement yet? I don't have the stones to say she is lying. I'd feel like a piece of shit if I did, only for more information to come out pointing to the validity of her claims. But just the same, I'd feel bad lobbing insults at Depp for the same reasons. And I say all of this while agreeing with you that I don't think a person would put themselves through this for no reason. Still, I'm too weary to judge much of anything at this time.

That's all totally fair and pretty much how I feel.

When I say I believe, it's because I want to take the situation seriously and get justice where it's deserved. It's frustrating how many people will assume lies, making it so victims never feel safe coming out when they've been abused. The "she's lying" reaction is so cynical and usually just sexist in my view.

 

[Oersted]

I guess we could just keep posting threads but that wouldn't achieve much. But at least you moved from "literally always" to "tendency" which I take less issue with.

The last post you quoted already got tendency. You are welcome.

You found as a counterpoint three insular persons who immediatly got shut down. The sentiment is clear.

I found 5 threads, all about abuse of women, with multiple persons going along the lines of "she is just in for the money/ innocent until proven guilty".

And every single time, it is explained again and again, that you missuse the term. You keep on going anyway.

 

[.shin]

That's all totally fair and pretty much how I feel.

When I say I believe, it's because I want to take the situation seriously and get justice where it's deserved. It's frustrating how many people will assume lies, making it so victims never feel safe coming out when they've been abused. The "she's lying" reaction is so cynical and usually just sexist in my view.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[mattiewheels]

This thread reminded me that if Polanski and Penn had pulled their shit in this day and age, they wouldn't have gotten off the way they did. And I'm a huge fan of Polanski's films but his unrepentantness would not play at all if this happened in this era.

 

[triplestation]

I heard amber is divorcing johny depp

 

[Vincent Alexander]

That's all totally fair and pretty much how I feel.

When I say I believe, it's because I want to take the situation seriously and get justice where it's deserved. It's frustrating how many people will assume lies, making it so victims never feel safe coming out when they've been abused. The "she's lying" reaction is so cynical and usually just sexist in my view.

Agreed completely. I think a lot of people like to use examples like the University of Virginia story from Rolling Stones a few years ago as an excuse to not trust any woman who claims she's been raped. Or really a woman claiming any horrific thing. In the end, they're doing exactly what you said----fostering an environment where victims don't feel safe to come out publicly, even against piece of shit scumbags. All because "Well....people have lied before." People have lied about a lot of things in life. That's no reason to treat everyone like a liar.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Oh, this explains a lot.

Groovy, your story is similar to many. There are also many people with stories of abuse who got no justice. This is why abuse and violence is such a charged subject that people say our justice system doesn't handle well.

Me believing Heard's story here has no impact on what happened to you. I'm not the police. I'm a guy on the Internet. I haven't condemned Depp or even expressed an opinion on him. I'd just rather not be a part of the culture that looks to undermine and dismiss outspoken victims. In an ideal world, we could've had Cosby in jail long before he abused and raped 50+ more women, but no one believed the victims for decades.

And we could've had Groovy in jail for abusing his girlfriend, except he luckily managed to prove the reality of the situation.

Agreed completely. I think a lot of people like to use examples like the University of Virginia story from Rolling Stones a few years ago as an excuse to not trust any woman who claims she's been raped. Or really a woman claiming any horrific thing. In the end, they're doing exactly what you said----fostering an environment where victims don't feel safe to come out publicly, even against piece of shit scumbags. All because "Well....people have lied before." People have lied about a lot of things in life. That's no reason to treat everyone like a liar.

Obviously not, but at the same time, jumping to believe someone's claim at face value is not the right way to go either. If everyone was like that, possibly innocent people's lives could easily be ruined.

Need to find a balance in the absence of obvious proof. Assuming lies or assuming guilt. Neither is the way to go.

 

[IISANDERII]

I'm not saying he's going to keep attacking her, I'm saying that this isn't just a single incident charge. She is claiming he is a serial abuser, which is kind of a big deal for a star with such a huge spotlight on him.

Oh you're saying more things will come to light

 

[Aztechnology]

You've made up a quote. Has anyone said that?

Regardless, people spread misinformation all the time about all sorts of topics. You're assuming people are idiots who need us to hold their hands through doing research and forming their own opinions. We're not the gatekeepers of any information.

It's not controversial to have a victim say something and then say "I believe this victim." You're blowing it up to something much bigger than it actually is. Why?

Am I? Look at the poster below. This is a direct result of people weighing in on issues before the facts are in. It's become pervasive. Now granted once Jelly looks up "Did Sean Penn beat Madonna he will find dozens of articles showing that Madonna has broken her silence and refuted those allegations. But the damage has already been done. For years you had many people convinced and many still do that Sean Penn beat her. I asked my Mom "What do you think of Sean Penn." She basically said the same thing Jelly did. Do you see what I'm saying? It's just my opinion, but I believe the best option is to remain skeptical until empirical or at least strongly compelling evidence can be provided. I believe people will do what's in their own best interest and will go to extraordinary lengths to get what they want. Movie stars and starlets are no different. I'm just as want to believe Johnny Depp is an asshole wife beater as I am to believe she is trying to leverage the cultural climate to get out of a relationship with the maximum benefit she can.

Didn't Sean Penn beat the crap out of Madonna?

According to Madonna he didn't.

But I'm going to stop here because I think by trying to force my opinion that people should be ambivalent about something I am in effect trying to stop discussion on a forum which is counter productive. If I have something to say going forward it will be about the subject and not how we choose to perceive it. So as I said I'll be waiting for the facts to present themselves before weighing in and I encourage more here to do the same.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Obviously not, but at the same time, jumping to believe someone's claim at face value is not the right way to go either. If everyone was like that, possibly innocent people's lives could easily be ruined.

Need to find a balance in the absence of obvious proof. Assuming lies or assuming guilt. Neither is the way to go.

And I probably should have said "some" and not "a lot" of people. But it is a tricky middleground. I think we all know where that middle is, but it's hard to express our opinions without sounding like we're on one side or other. Then people get upset.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

And I probably should have said "some" and not "a lot" of people. But it is a tricky middleground. I think we all know where that middle is, but it's hard to express our opinions without sounding like we're on one side or other. Then people get upset.

Yeah...

I called out a post defending Heard, but I'm probably in the same camp, honestly. I could totally see someone like Depp being a creep, even if he didn't mean to and "isn't like that" whenever he's actually sober.

Like many other people, I've seen drugs and alcohol turn kind people into monsters and not-so-kind people into even bigger monsters. Not saying that's what has happened here, but it's not hard to imagine at all and I hope a serious investigation is carried out.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I'm just as want to believe Johnny Depp is an asshole wife beater as I am to believe she is trying to leverage the cultural climate to get out of a relationship with the maximum benefit she can.

Can you name some liars who have done this and improved their lives?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

And we could've had Groovy in jail for abusing his girlfriend, except he luckily managed to prove the reality of the situation.

Great that the justice system took that situation seriously and didn't assume one of them was a liar, then.

 

[Beefy]

I have no problem with people wanting to believe alleged abuse victims. As many have said a hell of a lot of people don't step forward due to them thinking no one will believe them. What I do have a problem with is the story going public. Yes in Depps case if he is found out to be innocent he most likely will be fine. But for the general public accused of abuse their lives are in many cases ruined. There have been more and more cases of people being accused of being a pedo then being beat up or even worse killed or end up killing themselves.

That's why cases like this are so hard. On one hand the alleged victim needs support and protection. They also need to be trusted until they are proven right or wrong. But the accused needs to be treated the same way.

 

[jesu]

I have no problem with people wanting to believe alleged abuse victims. As many have said a hell of a lot of people don't step forward due to them thinking no one will believe them. What I do have a problem with is the story going public. Yes in Depps case if he is found out to be innocent he most likely will be fine. But for the general public accused of abuse their lives are in many cases ruined. There have been more and more cases of people being accused of being a pedo being beat up or even worse killed or end up killing themselves.

That's why cases like this are so hard. On one hand the alleged victim needs support and protection. They also need to be trusted until they are proven right or wrong. But the accused needs to be treated the same way.

A non pedo accused himself of being s pedo and killed himself?

 

[Beefy]

A non pedo accused himself of being s pedo and killed himself?

I am dyslexic. But I guess you knew what I was trying to say anyways.

 

[jesu]

I am dyslexic. But I guess you knew what I was trying to say anyways.

not really no.
i didn't realise you were dyslexic.

 

[Beefy]

not really no.
i didn't realise you were dyslexic.

Been a reports of people being accused of being rapists/pedos etc taking their lives even after they have had their named cleared. Even if a person is cleared in court many are still abused/threatened etc throughout their lifes.

 

[Thebeardofknowledge]

two of depp's ex's have come out now saying amber is full of shit

http://www.tmz.com/2016/05/29/johnny-depp-ex-partner-wife-amber-heard-vanessa/

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

two of depp's ex's have come out now saying amber is full of shit

http://www.tmz.com/2016/05/29/johnny-depp-ex-partner-wife-amber-heard-vanessa/

Right. Just because he didn't beat you he must've not beaten her. There are legitimate ways to refute her claims, this is not one of them.

 

[gamz]

two of depp's ex's have come out now saying amber is full of shit

http://www.tmz.com/2016/05/29/johnny-depp-ex-partner-wife-amber-heard-vanessa/

That doesn't mean shit. Every relationship is different.

 

[Extra Sauce]

Assumptions OT

 

[mario_O]

That doesn't mean shit. Every relationship is different.

It does mean something, actually a lot. There's no history of Depp being violent with past relations. And that to a judge means something. Every relationship is different, yes, but one doesn't become a wifebeating monster all of a sudden. Abusers normaly repeat their violent behaviour with every relation.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

It does mean something, actually a lot. There's no history of Depp being violent with past relations. And that to a judge means something. Every relationship is different, yes, but one doesn't become a wifebeating monster all of a sudden. Abusers normaly repeat their violent behaviour with every relation.

What's with this escalation? She has a phone bruise on her face. That's enough.

What are you basing your findings on, anyway?

 

[mario_O]

Here's the letter from Vanessa Paradise.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Assumptions OT

Pretty much. When it comes to matters like this my only position is I wasnt there, so I don't know what happened.

Until the investigated evidence prove conclusive, it's just hot air.

Always the same usual suspects, playing moral judge and jury too. Pffft.

 

[Allonym]

It does mean something, actually a lot. There's no history of Depp being violent with past relations. And that to a judge means something. Every relationship is different, yes, but one doesn't become a wifebeating monster all of a sudden. Abusers normaly repeat their violent behaviour with every relation.

Everyone has to start somewhere, no one just comes out being a wife beater and so just because these situations weren't present with someone else doesn't mean they aren't happening with another. I feel that "normaly" is the operative word in your sentence. There's nothing to suggest that this falls into a normal situation.

EDIT; if the 14yrs were wonderful, why did they separate?

 

[j0hnnix]

Here's the letter from Vanessa Paradise.

This means alot for Mr. Depp.

 

[akira28]

Right. Just because he didn't beat you he must've not beaten her. There are legitimate ways to refute her claims, this is not one of them.

well she never claimed he beat her. She claims he threw a cell phone at her, and grabbed her and shoved her, and also pulled her hair.

 

[mario_O]

What's with this escalation? She has a phone bruise on her face. That's enough.

What are you basing your findings on, anyway?

I'm not escalating anything, it's what I'm reading here, and everywhere.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Andy Richter with interesting information regarding these situations:

https://twitter.com/andyrichter/status/736630192328822784

One of the things you can pay a publicist to do is to make your ex look bad in the press after you've been accused of abuse

Some publicists even specialize in such things

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Why should "innocent until proven guilty!" matter in public opinion or various internet discussions.

This is a legal standard, people discussing things online is not actual lawmaking.

 

[dakun]

Why should "innocent until proven guilty!" matter in public opinion or various internet discussions.

This is a legal standard, people discussing things online is not actual lawmaking.

it's a pretty good standard to hold your opinion to.. believing in evidence and facts.

 

[s_mirage]

Here's the letter from Vanessa Paradise.

To be fair, even if those 14 years were wonderful, substance dependency can change a person. Even before this kerfuffle, some of Depp's public appearances over the last few years have been concerning. Besides, his first wife defending him as well carries little weight when she's talking about a man from 30 years ago. People can change, and not always for the better.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

To be fair, even if those 14 years were wonderful, substance dependency can change a person. Even before this kerfuffle, some of Depp's public appearances over the last few years have been concerning.

This one in particular