It depends on where you live and who your kids are. Surprise? Everyone is different . Sounds like you've got a nice neighborhood. Some kids don't. Some do and their parents still helicopter. As a parent you can now learn the true joy of watching people who don't and will never have kids, criticizing them on the internet.
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American Parenting is governed by fear and it's ruining our children
- Thread starter Emperor_Uriel
- Start date
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
My ex had multiple run ins with the police and EMTs (suicide attempts). The 2nd go at it our little girl was at the house and I had to get her out and into the car and just leave. Mother in Law called the cops and we handled it but when i got back to the house a hour or so later there was a card on my door from CPS with a number on the back asking me to get a hold of her as soon as i could.
I called that number for 5 days straight and left a message all but one time.
It was almost 6-8 months later that they finally called me back to follow up on that incident. They had lost a few case workers and were currently working through a serious back log (my towns CPS/Civil Service/Human Affairs dept had some serious shit go down which got a lot of people fired) - I was..... displeased... with that reasoning and let the girl fucking have it over the phone. She apologized and we set up a time for her to come by and talk to me and my kid.
As a quick aside my sister is a social worker and did house calls with Portland PD for years. Saw some horrible shit before she got a job at OHSU working their ED. I've had exposure to this job and lifestyle and what it does to people.
This poor girl was drowning. You could see that she was probably weeks behind where she wanted to be on these house calls and was fairly drained but had put on her best smile and come out and was ticking all the boxes of being non threatening and all that good stuff. I had cleaned my house from all the crap my ex left around and had basically started the process of separating already so i didn't have that to worry about and after a 15-25 minute conversation with the each of us she tells me -
"You have a really nice house. And a really sweet and intelligent little girl.... and I just wanna say I'm sorry about all the waiting you had to do with this just kind of out there but i did read your file a few months ago when i first came on and your case went low priority because the police made a note that you were stable and seemed to have things in hand. I really do apologize but i just want to say - thank you for being normal."
That last line reminded me so badly of my sister that i ended up telling her to get some rest and take care of herself and to remember to talk to somebody as she was leaving. These people see the fucking worst. WORST. of the worst when it comes to parents and families. If you aren't a piece of shit and your towns DHS isn't woefully corrupt or inept CPS is not usually your enemy. Just my experience for the most part.
OT - I was walking to and from school in the town i'm currently living in 20+ years ago at the age of 8ish easy. Never a worry or a problem. The only thing that bugs me about letting my daughter do the same thing now is the road i live on being MUCH busier than most of the roads i had to cross/travel when I was a kid.
Also of note: while signing her up for 1st grade last year we had to fill out a "how she gonna get home" sheet and there were all sorts of options from her taking the bus to people picking her up to marking "walking home". So at the least the schools are whatever about it...
edit: fuck me that's a wall of text. Sorry urrybody
Best friend had CPS called on him for the exact issues noted in this thread. (He lets his kids walk around the block together while he fixes dinner) One cordial visit and it was fine. They have to investigate. It's not the fault of CPS but the idiot neighbors that made the call.
Bornstellar
Member
In Idaho for the eclipse I watched my 15 year old cousin drive a semi-truck and my 7 year old cousin driving (and repairing) a dirt bike. Both without parental supervision. Seemed like they were much more actualized than their suburban / urban equivalents.
I remember being home alone pretty much most of the time during the summer months I didn't go and stay with my grandmother. I'd basically sit in the air conditioned house all day, eat the sandwich or snack prepared by my mom before she left for work/school and watch cartoons all damn day until she got back home around 2:30 ish. Was awesome. I can't imagine not being able to walk and hang out at my friends houses by myself when we all were young. I really wish kids had the same freedom I did. We only had to be back in front of the house before the streetlights came on.
This discussion reminds me of a paper I had to read a few years back for a course on media sociology. Looked it up and found some interesting tidbits:
"children's lives are defined by the ways in which:
‘adults seek to impose or negotiate rules and limits, adjusted over time, aimed at reconciling children's freedom and security... The nature of the local environment and the availability of formal recreational services, ranging from parks to clubs, crucially affect how children negotiate their relationships and use of space outside the home' (Hill & Tisdall, 1997: 93)."
"There has been a gradual shift from children's leisure time spent outside (in the streets, woods or countryside) to that spent primarily at home, both reflecting and shaping cultural conceptions of childhood over the past half century. Interviews with parents about their own childhoods reveal a dominant image of a carefree childhood spent out of doors (Livingstone, 2002). Idealised and nostalgic though this may be, historians of childhood confirm a ‘shift from a life focused on the street to one focused on the home'. Further, ‘this was accompanied by a change in the social organisation of the home. Parents, and in particular fathers, became less remote and authoritarian, less the centre of attention when they were present' (Cunningham, 1995: 179)."
"James et al (1998) draw on Beck's (1992) theory of the risk society to examine how the spaces for young people's leisure activities have changed in meaning over the past half century. Ennew (1994) argues that British children's lives are ruled by ‘the idea of danger', which she sees as having taken a new twist at the beginning of the 1990s. One consequence of the growing fears regarding children's safety is a growth in adult management of children's leisure space and time. For example, Hillman et al (1990) found that while in 1971 80% of seven and eight year-old children walked to school on their own, by 1990 this figure had dropped to 9%.
Parents recall with nostalgia their own childhood freedoms to play out of doors, convinced that they cannot allow this for their children, and so the home is construed as the haven of safety. Fears of the outdoors are expressed by parents in urban and rural areas, and reports of harm to children on television and in the newspapers often figure in parents' accounts. The YPNM survey showed that only 11% of parents with children aged 6-17 say the streets where they live are ‘very safe' for their child, compared with 56% thinking this about the neighbourhood where they themselves were brought up."
The paper examines the role modern media has had on this shift from children playing in the streets to them playing inside our homes.
As someone living close to Amsterdam (Belgium), I can guarantee that even here, this fear of 'danger' outside, has certainly become more common than in the generations before. Even though I was still allowed to ride my bike to school, the difference in freedom as kids between me and my parents' generation is huge.
My grandmother would send their children out of the house for the entire day, to play on te streets. Since the house was no place for children to play in. We on the other hand, had to stay inside or in the yard and we were happy if we were allowed to go out of the vicinity of our backyard, on our own, from time to time.
For those interested, I uploaded the paper here: http://docdro.id/QMac2yu
"children's lives are defined by the ways in which:
‘adults seek to impose or negotiate rules and limits, adjusted over time, aimed at reconciling children's freedom and security... The nature of the local environment and the availability of formal recreational services, ranging from parks to clubs, crucially affect how children negotiate their relationships and use of space outside the home' (Hill & Tisdall, 1997: 93)."
"There has been a gradual shift from children's leisure time spent outside (in the streets, woods or countryside) to that spent primarily at home, both reflecting and shaping cultural conceptions of childhood over the past half century. Interviews with parents about their own childhoods reveal a dominant image of a carefree childhood spent out of doors (Livingstone, 2002). Idealised and nostalgic though this may be, historians of childhood confirm a ‘shift from a life focused on the street to one focused on the home'. Further, ‘this was accompanied by a change in the social organisation of the home. Parents, and in particular fathers, became less remote and authoritarian, less the centre of attention when they were present' (Cunningham, 1995: 179)."
"James et al (1998) draw on Beck's (1992) theory of the risk society to examine how the spaces for young people's leisure activities have changed in meaning over the past half century. Ennew (1994) argues that British children's lives are ruled by ‘the idea of danger', which she sees as having taken a new twist at the beginning of the 1990s. One consequence of the growing fears regarding children's safety is a growth in adult management of children's leisure space and time. For example, Hillman et al (1990) found that while in 1971 80% of seven and eight year-old children walked to school on their own, by 1990 this figure had dropped to 9%.
Parents recall with nostalgia their own childhood freedoms to play out of doors, convinced that they cannot allow this for their children, and so the home is construed as the haven of safety. Fears of the outdoors are expressed by parents in urban and rural areas, and reports of harm to children on television and in the newspapers often figure in parents' accounts. The YPNM survey showed that only 11% of parents with children aged 6-17 say the streets where they live are ‘very safe' for their child, compared with 56% thinking this about the neighbourhood where they themselves were brought up."
The paper examines the role modern media has had on this shift from children playing in the streets to them playing inside our homes.
As someone living close to Amsterdam (Belgium), I can guarantee that even here, this fear of 'danger' outside, has certainly become more common than in the generations before. Even though I was still allowed to ride my bike to school, the difference in freedom as kids between me and my parents' generation is huge.
My grandmother would send their children out of the house for the entire day, to play on te streets. Since the house was no place for children to play in. We on the other hand, had to stay inside or in the yard and we were happy if we were allowed to go out of the vicinity of our backyard, on our own, from time to time.
For those interested, I uploaded the paper here: http://docdro.id/QMac2yu
I grew up mostly in the States. Spent a little time growing up in the Czech Republic. Once you're old enough to go to school in CZ it's basically open season for you to go anywhere without any adult supervision and nobody old or young would bat an eye. Parents not home? Who cares you got a key. Need to get to practice? Hope on the bus and go. anging out with friends with no parent supervision? Why would you need it. I'm talking age groups 6 to preteen here.
I know in the States it would have been borderline child abuse if my mom left me at home all alone at age 8 for like 6 hours with no babysitter.
And I know that many spots can be rough in the States and some are not optimal for getting around easily. Of course. Just use some basic logic as to why sometimes kids can't get around so easily or are reigned in a bit depending on their location and city safety levels.
I remember one of my college teachers (for a media class) explaining how when he was a young adult he was rooming with an elderly lady who would be holed up for the most part and always made sure to watch the news on TV. Then she would tell my teacher to not go to Wenceslav Square because it was too dangerous. This is the most famous square in Prague. You could potentially get mugged in the crowd but it's a place where EVERYBODY goes with zero fear. The TV news in fact was the fear mongering culprit for those that don't get any personal experience but only second hand info of never ending crime and catastrophe in their daily news cycle. But that's maybe diverting to another topic.
I know in the States it would have been borderline child abuse if my mom left me at home all alone at age 8 for like 6 hours with no babysitter.
And I know that many spots can be rough in the States and some are not optimal for getting around easily. Of course. Just use some basic logic as to why sometimes kids can't get around so easily or are reigned in a bit depending on their location and city safety levels.
In all fairness to the "news" part. TV news especially local news would make any outsider think that your place was the worst place in the world with constant murders or muggings or sexual assaults.
I remember one of my college teachers (for a media class) explaining how when he was a young adult he was rooming with an elderly lady who would be holed up for the most part and always made sure to watch the news on TV. Then she would tell my teacher to not go to Wenceslav Square because it was too dangerous. This is the most famous square in Prague. You could potentially get mugged in the crowd but it's a place where EVERYBODY goes with zero fear. The TV news in fact was the fear mongering culprit for those that don't get any personal experience but only second hand info of never ending crime and catastrophe in their daily news cycle. But that's maybe diverting to another topic.
Rhomega Beta
Member
I walked to school every day, except for a year and a half when I lived in a rural town and had to take the bus, and special occasions like dentist visits. I've also heard from the Baby Boomers, and how they would play outside all day on weekends until the streetlights came on. A lot of it has to do with fear of pedophiles and CPS.
Wrong. Children in Netherlands in all cities and towns bike to school most of the time.
Yes i can tell you that honestly. There are a few neighberhoods who are not great. But even then you see kids going alone everywhere and playing by themselfes outside. And its not that dangerous at all. Certainly not gang invested and stuff like that.
Also in most cities we have (not always) more mixed neighberhoods, what i mean by that is that in my block (consisting of just 3 streets) for example we have low income housing, villa's, middle class homes and a few flats for old people and 1 for troubled youth. So its very rare a neighberhood turns troublesome.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
Rural areas tend to be less uptight than urban and suburban ones, so this doesn't surprise me at all.
I wonder: Are there any places where this isn't the norm? Any places where men don't face unfair scrutiny around kids? Any places where communities are driven by unity rather than competition?
I am very guilty of this but my own childhood was a nightmare and I'm anxious bad things will happen to my kids too. Especially my daughter. My 14 year old is getting more freedom to walk around town and go to the store and such, but I always make him take his phone 
I really have tried to do better.
I really have tried to do better.
Nice, when I was a kid with those problems I got harassed by the teacher in front of the class, occasionally got a detention and then had the shit beat out of me by my parents and fellow classmates. Also, I didn't get properly diagnosed when I was a kid cuz the doctor was like "could be this but hes a kid so I dunno" so everyone just assumed I was lazy and stupid instead because it was easier.
Must be nice to have people that care about you. Oh wait no, bad parents.
Fact that your teacher harassed you with those problems and your parents didn't reply in the best possible manner, doesn't negate the point he's trying to make...
Of course, some kids are more anxious than others and nobody's advocating to make fun of that in any way, but do you really think it's wise to just give in to such requests every time?
If you have ever, tried to teach a class, you'll notice everyone coming up to you with excuses for why he or she can't do whatever is expected of him or her. Making any assignments, tests, impossible.
If a student of mine or one of his parents comes up to me and tells me the kid has anxiety problems, I'll always ask for some sort of proof. That way, I can find an alternative way of testing and I'm not being unfair to the rest of the class.
As sort of pointed out in thread and in the story, a lot of times if you try to be less of a helicopter parent, other people will call the police on you, so it turns into societal reinforcement of helicopter parenting.
it also really sucked that public parks have become more and more oriented towards the 3 to 7 year old age range in terms of equipment. When I was a kid the parks had something for everyone. I could go with my brothers and we all had something to do Now they're all plastic small things and are basically closed to anyone in elementary school and older because cops will get called on kids for 'loitering'. IN A PARK. It was really sad when my youngest brother was growing up and had only a couple of years where I could even take him to the park and actually be able to use the equipment. As much fun as fishing is, and he's a huge fishing fan, it really sucked that it was pretty much the only thing he was allowed to do from 7-ish onwards in a park.
edit: they even have removed and don't install regular swings in parks anymore around here. They're all just the toddler swings.
it also really sucked that public parks have become more and more oriented towards the 3 to 7 year old age range in terms of equipment. When I was a kid the parks had something for everyone. I could go with my brothers and we all had something to do Now they're all plastic small things and are basically closed to anyone in elementary school and older because cops will get called on kids for 'loitering'. IN A PARK. It was really sad when my youngest brother was growing up and had only a couple of years where I could even take him to the park and actually be able to use the equipment. As much fun as fishing is, and he's a huge fishing fan, it really sucked that it was pretty much the only thing he was allowed to do from 7-ish onwards in a park.
edit: they even have removed and don't install regular swings in parks anymore around here. They're all just the toddler swings.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
Sorry to hear this. Because of situations like yours, which were genuinely neglectful, the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction and we now have hundreds of kids with IEPs in a district where only a few dozen actually need them.
If you were a child today, and truly needed the extra help, you still wouldn't get the resources you need because entitled parents would be clogging up the system by trying to give further advantages to their totally capable kids.
It's just like how we neglected to identify and address sexual abuse in many of this country's core institutions for decades, and now we've decided to pivot towards blasting anyone who treats kids like kids rather than clients with powerful parents.
The idea of "grooming" in particular, which technically refers to behaviors that predators use to isolate and control a potential victim, has now become a catchall term for "any display of warmth and/or any physical contact between a man and a child," which is disastrous both for men who want to work in the field and kids who are in need of positive reinforcement and rolemodels. These are problems that need to be handled with a scalpel, but instead we jump in with a bazooka and justify the massive collateral damage by saying "Better safe than sorry!"
Socially, at least here in suburban/urban NY, I feel like our society has lost any and all sense of what it means to build a positive, loving and nonjudgmental community.
Hickbilly Deluxe
Banned
Lots and lots of small rural towns. Everyone knows everyone else, so trust becomes the norm. Sure, every town will have a local weirdo or two that kids know to stay away from but other than that nobody gives a shit as long as the kids don't burn something down. Hell, in my home town to this day if the local cop sees kids out past midnight he doesn't think twice about it so long as they aren't smoking or drinking.
Raven117
Member
Kinda crazy really. Growing up in the 80s and 90s, I rode my bike to elementary school every day. Geesh, thinking back, I don't think I could have been more than 6 or 7. Did that everyday until I got a car when I was 16.
The day I could get that license was the day I got it. (Hearing that kids wait awhile for this boggles my mind out of my damn skull).
To this day, independence is a cherish trait.
I wonder what kind of adults these kids will become...
The day I could get that license was the day I got it. (Hearing that kids wait awhile for this boggles my mind out of my damn skull).
To this day, independence is a cherish trait.
I wonder what kind of adults these kids will become...
Emperor_Uriel
Member
There are actual laws that would seriously impact your parents if you left the house alone at 6 or 7, or even if you were left alone inside the house at that age.
I was surprised to learn that Canada has similar problems, with cases like this one running wild over there:
The part in bold rings the most true for me, I've witnessed my school system empowering countless busybodies and helicopter parents in an effort to be spared the gaze of a hungry prosecutor.
timetokill
Banned
If you haven't seen it, watch The Hunt with Mikkelsen. Extremely relevant. It's not a horror film but it's the scariest movie I've ever seen.
I'm confused by this post as it directly contradicts more thorough posts about Amsterdam in this thread.
But what about Hamsterdam?
shaowebb
Member
Its true and I hate it. It forced a lot of anxiety and difficulty on a lot of us. Hard to know who you are, what you want, and even what matters when you never know more than the walls in your home. Folks dont know how to mingle as adults. Idle conversation or interaction with folks in line, service industry folk, random folks that seem interesting...it all leads to weird looks a lot of the time or rushed smiles and folks moving on. They're all taught if you dont know someone they're a stranger and that they are dangerous. Many dont have the foundation to take normal risks because they had every moment anxiously preset for them and supervised. When left to make their own adult decisions they dont know how to cope and look for help at every turn.
We are simultaneously told we are brilliant, and special, and we will never fail while being raised in a manner that more or less enforces a mindset that we will never be able to handle adversity should we face it without someone to protect us from the real world. Folks move back in or never move away from their home towns or even their family's houses because its the only way to stay safe. We interact to excessive amounts via electronic devices because its the only way folks raised this way here are allowed to feel safe from actual human contact...and even then folks say anyone online are not real so you keep those at arms length too even if its the only conversation you may eventually find. Its isolated, paranoid, and fills your life with no foundation to cope with the real world in all its difficulties and in all its wondrous potential.
No one ever lives if they were never raised to have their own life. Kids are young but not stupid...just inexperienced. They have a sense of right and wrong. Enforce that in a healthy manner and you get well adjusted adults who will be capable of making decisions in their lives. Make them paranoid with overprotective fear mongering and you will ruin their lives long after they grow up and leave school. They'll never do anything new. They'll never go anyplace they dont know. They'll miss out on everything cool and one by one as life forces them apart they'll see all the friends they did manage to find drift apart and thin because the more they are try to hold on to what they were raised the more the world will pass along and forget about them.
Barajas_201
Member
Yep can confirm, Americans are super paranoid. I lived in Peoria, Illinois and I would walk to school, since no school bus was available for my area do its proximity, because my parents worked so they couldn't give me a ride. When my classmates found out they said me and my parents were crazy because of the bad neighborhood were we lived. Now I'm in Mexico and on my way to college I see elementary school children get on public transportation every day without any adult supervision, paying in cash to a sketchy bus driver, standing up and holding onto their dear tiny lives because the driver is speeding like crazy to meet his schedule. And nobody cares, I can't image an American allowing this to their children, they're such nannies.
It's not just America.
I get legit bummed out when I'm walking my dogs and kids are terrified of my... pug.
Truly terrifying
"Back in my day" we used to go pet dogs and shit all the time, within reason of course.
I get legit bummed out when I'm walking my dogs and kids are terrified of my... pug.
Truly terrifying
"Back in my day" we used to go pet dogs and shit all the time, within reason of course.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
I wonder if there are any places in America where this sort of lifestyle still exists? Places that have sidestepped this insanity?
Wait? That was a real thing? The Simpsons didn't make that up?
As always on the internet, there's more to the story than the glib headline. There was a history of complaints between their parents & the neighbours.
My elementary school-aged kids walk home or bike home most days, with a neighbour kid, with them, sometimes to an empty house. My son plays at the park/creek at the bottom of our road, every day he can with his friends. They have a 'base', capture crawfish with nets & homemade traps, try to catch fish, and generally mess around. Nearest parent isn't far, one of their friends lives on the street overlooking the creek, so they're close if needed, but so far so good. They play. They have fun.
timetokill
Banned
When I was growing up my sister and I walked to and from our elementary school every day. About a half mile each way. Pre-cell phone era and whatever. I don't think it happens everywhere, but 24/7 news has really increased fear everywhere. And I think it's fear of neighbors "Reporting you" as much as it's fear of anything actually happening to your kids.
Earthbound64
Banned
A relevant thread:
Does anyone actually answer the door? Do you answer it blind?
People - adults - admitting to turning off the lights, hiding, and cowering in fear because someone knocked on their door...
I get the "I don't want to be bothered" sentiment - but some people are taking it way beyond that.
Does anyone actually answer the door? Do you answer it blind?
People - adults - admitting to turning off the lights, hiding, and cowering in fear because someone knocked on their door...
I get the "I don't want to be bothered" sentiment - but some people are taking it way beyond that.
Vincent Grayson
Member
The thing is, when people come to your door today, it's mostly to pressure you to buy shit.
I'd rather just not deal with it at all, plus it's fucking rude.
Yea I had to walk to school and cross a really busy street which was also a steep hill, so cars and yourself didn't have the best vision of what was coming. The walk was only like 5 minutes, but that crossing was kinda sketchy to be honest haha.
Helicoptering will only do more harm than good because how is a person going to figure out how to live by themselves if they never get to choose how to act?
If I ever have a kid, my mindset is going to be to give them as much information as possible and let them make an informed choice. Any other way seems like I am taking away their freedom, taking away their right to experience life.
Helicoptering will only do more harm than good because how is a person going to figure out how to live by themselves if they never get to choose how to act?
If I ever have a kid, my mindset is going to be to give them as much information as possible and let them make an informed choice. Any other way seems like I am taking away their freedom, taking away their right to experience life.
Earthbound64
Banned
Yeah, but there's a difference between what you said, and people saying they hide and turn off the lights or go upstairs or something - and that's what I meant, people seeming to live in fear of someone at their door.
I do this out of social anxiety, not out of actual bodily harm.
sooperkool
Member
Kids in my neighborhood run all over the place and into and out of each other's houses all day. I know all the parents and they know me and sometimes kids will ask for a glass of water or a parent will ask us to keep an eye on them. Ours will go to the store a few blocks away by themselves and bike/walk to school. Its a fairly normal neighborhood and not some suburb either. But then again we also answer our door and give out candy on Halloween.
sooperkool
Member
No, no, no. What you do is give a kid acceptable choices and let them choose one. This gives them agency over themselves but allows you to have control and prevent unforeseen circumstances.
ex. you don't say, "you get to choose dinner, what do you want?" then some little joker remembers the time he got a steak dinner and you sort of roped into it or saying no which undermines their choice. You say, "you get to choose dinner, do you want burgers, chicken or pizza" They get to pick and you retain control and keep it to reasonable and logical things. Just to provide an example.
Mammoth Jones
Member
One Eyed Willy
Member
IIRC correctly the time period was like 4 hours and kid was like 6 or something? Thats dangerous parenting and negligent.