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America's Racist Criminal Justice System

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Actually, no. It's also about innocent people who have to rely on an absurdly overworked public defense system and having to register a guilty plea from inadequate representation and advice.

I think everybody really should spend a day in a criminal felony court. It's disturbing to see the orderly and swift processing of poor people in jumpsuits and handcuffs (which are often linked to string four or five of them together) one after another. The number of people being processed through the system has grown by leaps and bounds, but the resources haven't. So the cases get virtually no individual attention whatsoever. And with even the federal judiciary (also severely under-resourced in light of the immense expansion of criminal justice over the last few decades) having been taken over by conservative ideological radicals, there are no checks on the system at all right now.
 
Well other than the absence of the death penalty would you say it is accurate?

I actually agree with empty vessel more closely than most people on these issues. However I think that post overstates the case he's making and hides the ball by trying to create the impression that harsh punishment per se did not exist, when it clearly did.

Having been part of the overworked mass production justice system, I totally agree with the premise of the OP.

I think everybody really should spend a day in a criminal felony court. It's disturbing to see the orderly and swift processing of poor people in jumpsuits and handcuffs (which are often linked to string four or five of them together) one after another. The number of people being processed through the system has grown by leaps and bounds, but the resources haven't. So the cases get virtually no individual attention whatsoever. And with even the federal judiciary (also severely under-resourced in light of the immense expansion of criminal justice over the last few decades) having been taken over by conservative ideological radicals, there are no checks on the system at all right now.

It doesn't even have to be felony court. The mass produced justice system of even misdemeanor land operates on the same principles.


Ending the drug war would destroy the foundation for a lot of this injustice.
 
I find it funny that a lot of people dismiss all of his speeches and material because they say he's a white guy looking to make money off of talking about how white people have privilege.

The irony being some people are more willing to listen to those with the same privilege.
 
I find it funny that a lot of people dismiss all of his speeches and material because they say he's a white guy looking to make money off of talking about how white people have privilege.

What's amazing is in the very beginning of the video I link he addressed that very thing. That one of the main reasons he does get the speaking gigs he does is because he "fits the aesthetic" that his white privilege has allowed him to do the work he does:

"We will know that we have made progress only on that day when a person of color can get up and give the talk I'm about to give and be taken half as seriously as I expect to be taken"
 
Really? I don't doubt the rest of your post, but this seems really unlikely.

It's true. Think of the origins of clemency to understand why this is so. Clemency was an act of grace by a king, and kings granted clemency to "criminals"--commoners charged with crimes against the king--to curry favor with the masses. The masses identified with "criminals" more than kings or other nobility, of course, so when a king spared somebody for the offenses committed against him, the show of mercy was celebrated by commoners and the monarch gained popularity. Governors of states are the democratic successors of kings, and to them the king's old clemency power has by and large passed (some states have taken clemency power away from governors and placed it in separate administrative bodies). So in the old days (pre-civil rights movement), much like kings, governors still used their clemency powers to show leniency to the common people as a form of populism.

In the modern era (post civil rights movement), the use of clemency has severely atrophied.

Executive clemency power exercised by the President of the United States has a rich and distinguished history in America. The Framers robustly championed the executive clemency power that is provided by Article II of our Constitution. At the time of founding, Alexander Hamilton stressed the importance of clemency in the Federalist Papers, emphasizing that "[t]he criminal code of every country partakes so much of necessary severity, that without an easy access to exceptions in favor of unfortunate guilt, justice would wear a countenance too sanguinary and cruel." Similarly, James Iredell of North Carolina championed the crucial nature of the executive clemency power, explaining that "there may be many instances where, though a man offends against the letter of the law, yet peculiar circumstances in his case may entitle him to mercy." As Iredell explained, because general criminal law cannot "foresee and provide for all possible cases that may arise . . . an inflexible adherence to it, in every instance, might frequently be the cause of very great injustice."

Critically, the federal clemency power was not only praised in theory at America's founding, but it was also honored in practice through America's first two centuries. As former Pardon Attorney Margaret Colgate Love has explained:

[F]rom the early days of the republic the pardon power was pressed into regular service as an integral part of the day-to-day operation of the federal justice system. At a time when the laws were relatively harsh and inflexible, pardon was virtually the only way that federal offenders could have their convictions reviewed, prison sentences reduced, and rights of citizenship restored. Many pardons and sentence commutations were issued each year to ordinary people convicted of garden variety crimes, often upon the recommendation of the prosecutor or the sentencing judge. Far from being an "extraordinary" remedy, pardon was a very ordinary form of early release and restoration of citizenship rights.

. . . .

Until 1980, each president granted well over a hundred post-sentence pardons and sentence commutations almost every year, without fanfare or scandal. Grants were issued almost every month for much of this period, evidence that pardoning was considered part of the ordinary housekeeping work of the Presidency, not something reserved for holidays or departure from office. The percentage of clemency petitions acted on favorably remained high, approaching or exceeding 30% in every administration until [President] Jimmy Carter's.

Significantly, not only was the clemency power regularly used by most presidents, but it was often used swiftly. As scholar P.S. Ruckman has effectively documented, roughly half of all presidents granted some form of clemency within their first two weeks in the Oval Office; until recently, nearly every president granted some clemencies during his first 100 days in office. Even presidents serving during the most tumultuous periods in American history found the time and the opportunity to make early and regular use of their clemency power. For example, in their first years in the White House, Abraham Lincoln issued eighty pardons, Theodore Roosevelt issued 128 pardons or clemencies, Franklin Roosevelt issued 167 clemency grants, and Harry Truman issued 107 such grants. ...

B. The Modern Decline of Clemency

In modern times, the executive clemency power has been failing to serve the ends of mercy and justice that the Framers emphasized and that many presidents previously effectuated. Once again, Margaret Colgate Love provides an effective summary of the modern decline of this historically important part of the criminal justice system:

In the past twenty-five years we have lost touch with the rich history of presidential pardoning. Four successive presidents have allowed the pardon power to atrophy, not because there was no more use for it -- certainly this is not true since the advent of determinate sentencing -- but because they both misunderstood and feared it. The Department of Justice, pardon's trusted official custodian for more than a century, marginalized and compromised the power.

President Obama's three predecessors are uniquely responsible for clemency's functional demise. President George H.W. Bush granted a record low number of pardons and commutations, and Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush continued a modern tendency to use the clemency power exceedingly sparingly. Perhaps even more troubling, the last two presidents largely declined to use their clemency power until the end of their terms. Neither Bill Clinton nor George W. Bush granted a single pardon or commuted a single prison sentence for the first two years of their presidencies. And more than half of the clemency grants by President Clinton were issued during his very last days in office after eight years of a presidency marked largely by disregard for the clemency power.

The modern decline in the use of clemency at the federal level is not due to a lack of requests or a paucity of worthy cases; Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush received a record number of pardon and commutation requests. This fact is not surprising, given that in recent decades the federal criminal justice caseload has grown tremendously, the possibility of parole has been formally eliminated by statute, sentencing rules have become more rigid and severe through mandatory minimum-sentencing terms and increased guideline-sentencing ranges, and the collateral consequences of conviction have become more extensive and burdensome. But, while many more persons are subject to the federal criminal justice system and many more offenders are serving longer prison terms and dealing with the ever-more-burdensome consequences of a criminal conviction, the constitutional clemency power continues to atrophy.

Many cultural and political forces have played a role in clemency's modern decline, which has occurred at the state level as well as in the federal system. Extreme tough-on-crime political rhetoric and attitudes have become all too commonplace as criminal justice policy has become increasingly politicized.

Douglas A. Berman, Turning Hope-and-Change Talk Into Clemency Action for Nonviolent Drug Offenders, 36 N.E. J. on Crim. & Civ. Con. 59 (can't find a free version online to link to)

And this is rather telling: "But the percentage of federal grants of clemency applications has declined sharply, with the biggest drop occurring from President Nixon’s presidency until today." That's basically right on cue from the civil rights movement forward.

http://www.harvardlawreview.org/issues/121/march08/barkow.pdf

See also The Politics of Forgiveness: Reconceptualizing Clemency: http://www.law.nyu.edu/ecm_dlv4/gro...al_law/documents/documents/ecm_pro_062016.pdf
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
While fiction, see also: the movie "O Brother Where Art Thou?"

I think everybody really should spend a day in a criminal felony court. It's disturbing to see the orderly and swift processing of poor people in jumpsuits and handcuffs (which are often linked to string four or five of them together) one after another. The number of people being processed through the system has grown by leaps and bounds, but the resources haven't. So the cases get virtually no individual attention whatsoever. And with even the federal judiciary (also severely under-resourced in light of the immense expansion of criminal justice over the last few decades) having been taken over by conservative ideological radicals, there are no checks on the system at all right now.
Reading this made me think of this story:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/430/very-tough-love
 
I do recommend the book, because it does go in significantly greater detail about the political process that brought us here, as well as the historical context of what happened post-slavery, why it was naive not to expect some attempt to reassert wouldn't happen after the collapse of Jim Crow, and how the drug war was sold and packaged, etc.. The author of the blog mentioned one example where the "In 1996, the Supreme Court ruled that the prosecutors did not have to make any evidence available to the defense," and that the only way they would be able to get that information is by proving the thing they were requesting data to prove. But that wasn't the only thing; Michelle Alexander mentioned maybe as many as a dozen other court rulings that explicitly allowed for many of these abuses (either implicitly or explicitly). She described it as the Court saying that it didn't matter what the statistics showed (which is why I'm rather pessimistic about this); unless there was evidence that there was actually a racial motivation in the form of explicit statements to that effect, the fact that, say, there's a disparity of 2000 : 0 in federal crack sentencing despite similar usage rates is insignificant.

So I don't think it's really been ignored so much as it has been explicitly affirmed.



Oh, indeed.





A couple choice facts from the author of the book.

Wow.

Anyone else remember what Santourm said a while back, about black people being better off during the slavery era then they are now? His statement actually makes sense after reading this excerpt.
 

Puddles

Banned
I personally will vote not guilty on any non-violent drug case I am ever called up to the jury for, regardless of the evidence. Everyone should do the same.
 
Racism trumps economic disparity in lots of things, including this.

I don't know if I agree with that. There's obviously racism, but I don't think that it's the driving force behind the disparity. If that was the case, we've got an awfully lot of racist judges on the bench.

Economic disparity means that the defendants won't have good legal defense. Economic disparity means that the defendants are much less likely to have graduated high school, or be enrolled/graduated from college. Which also means they're less likely to have a good job.

Two people are convicted of selling crack cocaine. Neither has a previous record. One is in college, and the other never graduated high school, never went in the military, and is unemployed. If you were a judge, who would you give the lesser sentence to? If you think both should be given the same sentence, what's the point of having a judge hear the case? You did X crime, so you do X penalty. A computer could do that.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Nintendo Ate My Children: Wealth disparity is a large part of what perpetuates both the effects and causes of racism.
 

Mumei

Member
True, but then is it fair to call it a "racist criminal justice system"? That implies racism on the part of judges, attorneys, etc. It's a racist economic system.

I'm glad you asked!

Yes, it is.

"And it doesn’t even have to be motivated overtly by racism. There are built in incentives that push the actors at every level in the same direction to maintain that caste system. Police departments qualify for federal grants by increasing the number of people arrested for drugs, so the focus isn’t on the kingpins but on arresting as many of the low level users and dealers as they can. Prosecutors are elected and they get reelected by pumping up their conviction rate, giving the incentive to get guilty pleas whenever possible. Everyone is acting in their own rational self-interest, even if they aren’t motivated by racism."
 
Yes, it is.

"And it doesn’t even have to be motivated overtly by racism. There are built in incentives that push the actors at every level in the same direction to maintain that caste system. Police departments qualify for federal grants by increasing the number of people arrested for drugs, so the focus isn’t on the kingpins but on arresting as many of the low level users and dealers as they can. Prosecutors are elected and they get reelected by pumping up their conviction rate, giving the incentive to get guilty pleas whenever possible. Everyone is acting in their own rational self-interest, even if they aren’t motivated by racism.

But that's not racism. That's corruption.

That's where comparing races along the same crimes and class comes in. Blacks still suffer more.

Did I miss that part in the original post, or is there a separate study? I haven't read a great deal on this, so I honestly don't know. And do they just compare class, or other variables like education attained? Is there a difference between the percentage of poor whites who attend college compared to poor blacks?
 
I don't know if I agree with that. There's obviously racism, but I don't think that it's the driving force behind the disparity. If that was the case, we've got an awfully lot of racist judges on the bench.

Economic disparity means that the defendants won't have good legal defense. Economic disparity means that the defendants are much less likely to have graduated high school, or be enrolled/graduated from college. Which also means they're less likely to have a good job.

Two people are convicted of selling crack cocaine. Neither has a previous record. One is in college, and the other never graduated high school, never went in the military, and is unemployed. If you were a judge, who would you give the lesser sentence to? If you think both should be given the same sentence, what's the point of having a judge hear the case? You did X crime, so you do X penalty. A computer could do that.

As a socialist, I'm very sympathetic to class-based arguments. And I think class is usually given way too little weight. But, even still, I believe race to be a separate problem on top of class. Yes, blacks are obviously disproportionately poor, and, yes, this is obviously a part of the reason why we see disproportionate statistics in the criminal justice system. And, yes, wealthy blacks will be more likely to get better results in the criminal justice system than poor whites. But that said, all other things being equal, a black person will, without any doubt, fare less well than a white person in the criminal justice system. There is a mountain of empirical evidence out there that shows how much race affects the conclusions we draw about the world (often entirely subconsciously), and if you look into it, it will likely blow your mind. And that's what police, prosecutors, judges, and juries all do in any given criminal case: draw conclusions.
 

Farooq

Banned
As a socialist, I'm very sympathetic to class-based arguments. And I think class is usually given way too little weight. But, even still, I believe race to be a separate problem on top of class. Yes, blacks are obviously disproportionately poor, and, yes, this is obviously a part of the reason why we see disproportionate statistics in the criminal justice system. And, yes, wealthy blacks will be more likely to get better results in the criminal justice system than poor whites. But that said, all other things being equal, a black person will, without any doubt, fare less well than a white person in the criminal justice system. There is a mountain of empirical evidence out there that shows how much race affects the conclusions we draw about the world (often entirely subconsciously), and if you look into it, it will likely blow your mind. And that's what police, prosecutors, judges, and juries all do in any given criminal case: draw conclusions.

As a society, how do you fight that?
 

Mumei

Member
As a society, how do you fight that?

Well he's probably going to answer this much better than I will, but! I think something that helps as an individual is trying to be aware of the way that your subconscious biases can affect your decision-making and constantly second-guessing yourself as a result. While you won't notice the subconscious process that got you to that point, I think that if you pay attention to the surface thoughts and are honest with yourself, you'll start to notice where you are inconsistent or unfair or less charitable in your interpretations or so forth. I've noticed those things myself; I certainly don't think of myself as perfect in this regard. And when I do, I try to be aware of it and question whether my impression of a situation or a person or even a slur that popped into my head when I was angry - and realize that this does represent subconscious, implicit biases on my part, whether about gender or race.

In short, I think trying to be more self-aware about your own foibles and actively critically considering them and rejecting those that are incongruent with your explicit values can help. At least I hope it does.
 
It is a racist system; nothing was claimed about the racism of individuals. Some are, some aren't. In many cases racism is likely just subconscious.

A system is composed of individuals. I just don't think it's helpful to label something racist if the problem is corruption. The remedies for racism and corruption are two separate things. If you could magically make every single individual in the criminal justice system completely non-racist, the corruption would still remain.
 

Mumei

Member
A system is composed of individuals. I just don't think it's helpful to label something racist if the problem is corruption. The remedies for racism and corruption are two separate things. If you could magically make every single individual in the criminal justice system completely non-racist, the corruption would still remain.

I don't think he was describing "corruption" there. He was describing the way that any person operating in an institution has natural incentives based on what the system incentivizes him to do; it is built into the system. A prosecutor is motivated to overcharge to get easy convictions, for instance. This isn't corruption; it's a feature of the system. I think the issue is about changing incentives (or simply removing them or the options that the incentive results in (e.g. overcharging) rather than cracking down on corruption (though that is still important).

And the system is racist in how it functions. If all of this was run by a single person with intent, I'd call that person racist, but since it obviously isn't, the system is.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
A system is composed of individuals. I just don't think it's helpful to label something racist if the problem is corruption. The remedies for racism and corruption are two separate things. If you could magically make every single individual in the criminal justice system completely non-racist, the corruption would still remain.
If the racist behavior remains then the system is effectively racist.
 
I don't know...I see a lot of different ethnicities fucking the living shit out of each other and making mixed babies. Hard to be racist when everyone is gonna be light mocha....

Then the light mocha people will be racist towards the slightly darker mocha people. Just look at Puerto Rico where the lighter skinned people are racist towards the Afro Puerto Ricans and Dominicans that reside on the Island.
 

Mumei

Member
I don't know...I see a lot of different ethnicities fucking the living shit out of each other and making mixed babies. Hard to be racist when everyone is gonna be light mocha....

I don't think that's right. We're still very segregated, and it is probably most pronounced when it comes to who we choose to date and even more particularly marry. I'm just not sure I believe that we're, say, only a few generations away from that sort of world where everyone is in a more limited range of colors. I think that would require a fairly drastic change in people's behavior.

And in somewhat more depressing speculation, I was reading this book, which included the author's speculation about the sort of racial system (though the main thrust of the book was about how colorblind racism functions and how it is justified rhetorically) he thought we were moving towards: a triracial system that would consist of "whites" on top (e.g. "traditional" whites, totally assimilated white Latinos, lighter-skinned multiracials), then sub-groups like light-skinned Latinos, Japanese-Americans, Chinese-Americans, etc., and then finally dark-skinned African-Americans, dark-skinned Latinos, Vietnamese, Filipinos, Laotians, etc. He described the system as being a pigmentocracy:

As a triracial system (or Latin- or Caribbean-like racial order), race conflict will be buffered by the intermediate group, much like class conflict is when the class structure includes a large middle class. Furthermore, color gradations, which have always been important matters of within-group differentiation, will become more salient factors of stratification. Lastly, Americans, like people in complex racial stratification orders, will begin making nationalist appeals ("We are all Americans"), decry their racial past, and claim they are "beyond race."

This new order, I argue, will be apparently more pluralistic and exhibit more racial fluidity than the order it is replacing. However, this new system will serve as a formidable fortress for white supremacy. Its "we are beyond race" lyrics and color-blind music will drown the voices of those fighting for racial equality ("Why continue talking about race and racism when we are all Americans?") and may even eclipse the space for talking about race altogether. Hence, in this emerging Latin America-like America, racial inequality will remain -- and may even increase -- yet there will be restricted space to fight it.​

And I think even today we can see the potential for that:

Unfortunately, a fairly consistent finding is that punitiveness and hostility almost always increase when people are primed - even subliminally - with images or verbal cues associated with African Americans. In fact, studies indicate that people become increasingly harsh when an alleged criminal is darker and more "stereotypically black"; they are more lenient when the accused is lighter and appears more stereotypically white. This is true of jurors as well as law enforcement officers.​

... And speak of the devil, right after I finished typing this, I looked to see if anyone had posted since I checked, and I saw gibon3z's post. Thanks!
 
Then the light mocha people will be racist towards the slightly darker mocha people. Just look at Puerto Rico where the lighter skinned people are racist towards the Afro Puerto Ricans and Dominicans that reside on the Island.

That's a damn good point.

StarTrekBlackFaceWhiteFace.jpg
 
I find it funny that a lot of people dismiss all of his speeches and material because they say he's a white guy looking to make money off of talking about how white people have privilege.
Personally, I dismiss his speeches and material because he is honest-to-god invoking reverse racism as a solution to racism.

Also because he cannot help but fall into the dramatic, emotional rhetoric that the undergrads love rather than engage in temperate, constructive discourse. He's a pop activist, not a scholar.
 

Mumei

Member
Personally, I dismiss his speeches and material because he is honest-to-god invoking reverse racism as a solution to racism.

Also because he cannot help but fall into the dramatic, emotional rhetoric that the undergrads love rather than engage in temperate, constructive discourse. He's a pop activist, not a scholar.

"Reverse racism"?
 
I'm not sure what else to call this.

(Or this.)

Also I find that many people who use the term "anti-racist" to describe themselves or their rhetoric have a nasty habit of labeling anyone who disagrees with them on any level as "racist". Disagreeing with someone who claims to oppose racism =/= racism.

Not to derail this thread, in which issues of actual racism and/or potential racism have been brought up and discussed at some length, even if I don't agree with all the conclusions drawn.
 

Nert

Member
I'm not sure what else to call this.

(Or this.)

Also I find that many people who use the term "anti-racist" to describe themselves or their rhetoric have a nasty habit of labeling anyone who disagrees with them on any level as "racist". Disagreeing with someone who claims to oppose racism =/= racism.

Not to derail this thread, in which issues of actual racism and/or potential racism have been brought up and discussed at some length, even if I don't agree with all the conclusions drawn.

If you perceive those examples as expressing (or advocating) racism against white people, it would still just be "racism."
 
"Reverse racism" = racism against the majority/traditionally dominant racial class. It's easier to shame someone out of protesting it, but it's still racism. Racism does not solve racism. (Yes, it is still technically just "racism" but "reverse racism" is a more specific term for a particular type of racism. It's not like I made it up.)

Unless you're saying that I am racist for saying that he is racist, in which case I guess we have started our descent into semantic madness.

Also yeah, discrimination will always exist to some degree, that is just a basic component of human psychology. The goal should be to establish a system of law that is as impartial as possible to factors (such as race) that in no way reflect on the merit of the individual, and a culture which reinforces this philosophy. I think today's problems with race are a compound result of the lingering aftereffects of slavery and and its ensuing fallout, and the disproportionate cultural/media propagation of racial stereotypes which inform everyday attitudes and prejudices. I think these issues have for the most part gotten better over time (though there's still a long ways to go) and I think that with an incumbent generation of lawmakers, tastemakers, community figures, etc. raised in a more egalitarian society than their parents and their parents' parents before them, they will become increasingly marginalized over the next century or so. Never gone completely, but marginalized. I think people who spew angry, confrontational and above all heavily-racialized rhetoric like Wise are accomplishing absolutely nothing except exacerbating the problem (and possibly stroking their own egos in the process) - irritating the wound rather than allowing it to heal.
 

Nert

Member
"Reverse racism" = racism against the majority/traditionally dominant racial class. It's easier to shame someone out of protesting it, but it's still racism. Racism does not solve racism. (Yes, it is still technically just "racism" but "reverse racism" is a more specific term for a particular type of racism. It's not like I made it up.)

Unless you're saying that I am racist for saying that he is racist, in which case I guess we have started our descent into semantic madness.

Not at all; I'm not implying anything about you in particular. I'm just annoyed by the term "reverse racism" existing, as "racism" is sufficient to describe the phenomenon. Adding additional terms to important cultural conversations when they have no useful function just tends to obfuscate things.

It also seems like a rhetorical tool that some people use to try to divide racism into separate issues (e.g., whites are now under attack by this new force of reverse racism) that distract people from the issue as a whole. If whites feel that they're being hit back with a special type of racism, they may be less sympathetic to the unfair situation minorities find themselves in.

When I've had conversations about racism with my father, he has sometimes protested that he is suffering from reverse racism because his company was forced to hire some minorities (never mind the fact that the overwhelming majority of people working there at the time were white men). The phrase becomes a strange counterpoint in discussions that creates arguments and wedges when it doesn't make sense for them to be there.
 
When I've had conversations about racism with my father, he has sometimes protested that he is suffering from reverse racism because his company was forced to hire some minorities (never mind the fact that overwhelming majority of people working there at the time were white men). The phrase becomes a strange counterpoint in discussions that creates arguments and wedges when it doesn't make sense for them to be there.

Sounds more like entitlement issues than racism towards whites.
 
@Nert: Okay, I thought that's what you meant. Sorry to imply that you were dismissing me entirely.

Eh, I don't think "reverse racism" is a wrong term or even a bad one, even if it does frequently get co-opted by some, uh, unsavory types. Reverse racism, by its very nature, does not take the same form or occupy the same space in society as conventional racism, so I think there is use in treating it as a distinct offshoot of conventional racism.

TBH I think affirmative action is an example of reverse racism - regardless of context, granting advantages or disadvantages to any individual on the basis of their ethnicity is racist, plain and simple. Mandatory hiring of minority employees on the basis of their minority status is an insult to minority workers (why should anyone be able to question whether they earned their job on the basis of merit?) and only serves to foster resentment and keep racist sentiment alive on the side of the employee majority. I get the concerns surrounding the argument in favor of affirmative action, I just don't think it's a good solution for reasons I outlined above and in my previous post.
 

Mumei

Member
I'm not sure what else to call this.

(Or this.)

Also I find that many people who use the term "anti-racist" to describe themselves or their rhetoric have a nasty habit of labeling anyone who disagrees with them on any level as "racist". Disagreeing with someone who claims to oppose racism =/= racism.

Not to derail this thread, in which issues of actual racism and/or potential racism have been brought up and discussed at some length, even if I don't agree with all the conclusions drawn.

Unfortunately for the purposes of this conversation, I haven't read that book (and honestly I'm probably not going to any time soon), but I have just listened to that first link and I'm not really seeing the problem? I feel the same way about in-group / out-group usages of slurs outside of an academic setting (and even then, it would seem odd to imagine it spoken at an academic conference, though I can't claim to really know that). Even when I do feel comfortable extending in group privileges to friends who aren't in the, er, in-group, that's with me; it doesn't then mean that they have carte blanche to use it with anyone.

I skew towards "Never," myself, though I was reading this a little over a year ago and it did get me thinking about my usage (or lack thereof, I suppose). But the next time the issue of race came up in a conversation, it just felt really, really uncomfortable, so I stuck with the dodge.

So, anyway, what was racist about it? I saw your comment, but I don't recall him explicitly saying "Saying that a white person cannot use the word "nigger" or its derivatives in any context whatsoever without being A Filthy Stinking Racist = absolutely racist as fuck," as per your comment.
 
@Nert: Okay, I thought that's what you meant. Sorry to imply that you were dismissing me entirely.

Eh, I don't think "reverse racism" is a wrong term or even a bad one, even if it does frequently get co-opted by some, uh, unsavory types. Reverse racism, by its very nature, does not take the same form or occupy the same space in society as conventional racism, so I think there is use in treating it as a distinct offshoot of conventional racism.

TBH I think affirmative action is an example of reverse racism - regardless of context, granting advantages or disadvantages to any individual on the basis of their ethnicity is racist, plain and simple. Mandatory hiring of minority employees on the basis of their minority status is an insult to minority workers (why should anyone be able to question whether they earned their job on the basis of merit?) and only serves to foster resentment and keep racist sentiment alive on the side of the employee majority. I get the concerns surrounding the argument in favor of affirmative action, I just don't think it's a good solution for reasons I outlined above and in my previous post.

What would be your solution to resolving institutional prejudice and racism?
 
His bit about "double standards" doesn't seem suspect to you? He's basically saying "injustice has occurred in history, so perpetrating the opposite of this injustice is justified" - sure he's only referring to one specific thing, but looking at some of his other writings I feel like that actually says quite a bit about his philosophy.

Not to mention that he is himself going out of his way to avoid using a word in a formal discussion about that word, simply because of his skin color - seems pretty ridiculous to me.

Obviously I'm not saying that white people calling black people "niggers" isn't racist (or at least in very poor taste), but saying that they can or cannot so much as speak the word simply because they are white seems - well, it's telling an individual what they can or can't do on the basis of their ethnicity, which is racism.

@Devolution: I guess encouraging businesses to educate their employees on topics like unconscious bias, or even encourage the use of hiring systems that somehow bypass the very possibility for prejudice, such that the person or people making the final decisions on hiring are blind to factors such as race and sex? Those are two possible measures, I'm sure there are more. I mean, I don't have a perfect solution, I just know that affirmative action is not the right one.
 
How is AA racist? Are white people and men entitled to jobs? Because that's how it works without things like AA in place. How would you get those people into places that refuse to hire them?
 

Mumei

Member
His bit about "double standards" doesn't seem suspect to you? He's basically saying "injustice has occurred in history, so perpetrating the opposite of this injustice is justified" - sure he's only referring to one specific thing, but looking at some of his other writings I feel like that actually says quite a bit about his philosophy.

No, it doesn't.

There are double standards about the usage of the n-word in particular (and frankly I wish more words had that same in-group / out-group taboo, but anyway), and there should be given historical context.

Not to mention that he is himself going out of his way to avoid using a word in a formal discussion about that word, simply because of his skin color - seems pretty ridiculous to me.

If he was saying what he was saying, while actually using it he'd look ridiculous because he would be hypocritical. I don't see how his consistency on the issue is ridiculous.

I think that it could be possible for a white person to use the word in formal conversation without intending offense. But I think that given the history of white people using the word, that erring on the side of caution is the best policy. There's nothing racist about being sensitive to the historical context of the word and understanding how the reception of the word changes based on the race of the speaker.
 
How is AA racist?
I... just explained this, literally just now.

Devolution said:
Are white people and men entitled to jobs? Because that's how it works without things like AA in place. How would you get those people into places that refuse to hire them?
You're putting things in pretty (if you'll pardon the phrasing) black-and-white terms here. Either we have affirmative action or black people have no jobs? I'm skeptical of that. Millions of black people have jobs that they didn't need affirmative action to get. How did they get those? Pure luck?

I already offered a couple of ideas for policies other than affirmative action that could help alleviate the effects of discrimination in businesses. Did you read those?
 
I... just explained this, literally just now.


You're putting things in pretty (if you'll pardon the phrasing) black-and-white terms here. Either we have affirmative action or black people have no jobs? I'm skeptical of that. Millions of black people have jobs that they didn't need affirmative action to get. How did they get those? Pure luck?

I already offered a couple of ideas for policies other than affirmative action that could help alleviate the effects of discrimination in businesses. Did you read those?

So do you believe that stuff like Civil Rights Legislation would have worked better if instead people just told everyone to be less racist or prejudice?
 
I personally will vote not guilty on any non-violent drug case I am ever called up to the jury for, regardless of the evidence. Everyone should do the same.

i made this decision a while ago also. jury nullification has a long proud history in this country.

john jay said:
The jury has a right to judge both the law as well as the fact in controversy.
 
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