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Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection

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Gaborn

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JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days.

If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

The tablet, probably found near the Dead Sea in Jordan according to some scholars who have studied it, is a rare example of a stone with ink writings from that era — in essence, a Dead Sea Scroll on stone.

It is written, not engraved, across two neat columns, similar to columns in a Torah. But the stone is broken, and some of the text is faded, meaning that much of what it says is open to debate.

Still, its authenticity has so far faced no challenge, so its role in helping to understand the roots of Christianity in the devastating political crisis faced by the Jews of the time seems likely to increase.

Daniel Boyarin, a professor of Talmudic culture at the University of California at Berkeley, said that the stone was part of a growing body of evidence suggesting that Jesus could be best understood through a close reading of the Jewish history of his day.

“Some Christians will find it shocking — a challenge to the uniqueness of their theology — while others will be comforted by the idea of it being a traditional part of Judaism,” Mr. Boyarin said.


Given the highly charged atmosphere surrounding all Jesus-era artifacts and writings, both in the general public and in the fractured and fiercely competitive scholarly community, as well as the concern over forgery and charlatanism, it will probably be some time before the tablet’s contribution is fully assessed. It has been around 60 years since the Dead Sea Scrolls were uncovered, and they continue to generate enormous controversy regarding their authors and meaning.

The scrolls, documents found in the Qumran caves of the West Bank, contain some of the only known surviving copies of biblical writings from before the first century A.D. In addition to quoting from key books of the Bible, the scrolls describe a variety of practices and beliefs of a Jewish sect at the time of Jesus.

How representative the descriptions are and what they tell us about the era are still strongly debated. For example, a question that arises is whether the authors of the scrolls were members of a monastic sect or in fact mainstream. A conference marking 60 years since the discovery of the scrolls will begin on Sunday at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem, where the stone, and the debate over whether it speaks of a resurrected messiah, as one iconoclastic scholar believes, also will be discussed.

Oddly, the stone is not really a new discovery. It was found about a decade ago and bought from a Jordanian antiquities dealer by an Israeli-Swiss collector who kept it in his Zurich home. When an Israeli scholar examined it closely a few years ago and wrote a paper on it last year, interest began to rise. There is now a spate of scholarly articles on the stone, with several due to be published in the coming months.

“I couldn’t make much out of it when I got it,” said David Jeselsohn, the owner, who is himself an expert in antiquities. “I didn’t realize how significant it was until I showed it to Ada Yardeni, who specializes in Hebrew writing, a few years ago. She was overwhelmed. ‘You have got a Dead Sea Scroll on stone,’ she told me.”

Much of the text, a vision of the apocalypse transmitted by the angel Gabriel, draws on the Old Testament, especially the prophets Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai.

Ms. Yardeni, who analyzed the stone along with Binyamin Elitzur, is an expert on Hebrew script, especially of the era of King Herod, who died in 4 B.C. The two of them published a long analysis of the stone more than a year ago in Cathedra, a Hebrew-language quarterly devoted to the history and archaeology of Israel, and said that, based on the shape of the script and the language, the text dated from the late first century B.C.

A chemical examination by Yuval Goren, a professor of archaeology at Tel Aviv University who specializes in the verification of ancient artifacts, has been submitted to a peer-review journal. He declined to give details of his analysis until publication, but he said that he knew of no reason to doubt the stone’s authenticity.

It was in Cathedra that Israel Knohl, an iconoclastic professor of Bible studies at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, first heard of the stone, which Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur dubbed “Gabriel’s Revelation,” also the title of their article. Mr. Knohl posited in a book published in 2000 the idea of a suffering messiah before Jesus, using a variety of rabbinic and early apocalyptic literature as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls. But his theory did not shake the world of Christology as he had hoped, partly because he had no textual evidence from before Jesus.

When he read “Gabriel’s Revelation,” he said, he believed he saw what he needed to solidify his thesis, and he has published his argument in the latest issue of The Journal of Religion.

Mr. Knohl is part of a larger scholarly movement that focuses on the political atmosphere in Jesus’ day as an important explanation of that era’s messianic spirit. As he notes, after the death of Herod, Jewish rebels sought to throw off the yoke of the Rome-supported monarchy, so the rise of a major Jewish independence fighter could take on messianic overtones.

In Mr. Knohl’s interpretation, the specific messianic figure embodied on the stone could be a man named Simon who was slain by a commander in the Herodian army, according to the first-century historian Josephus. The writers of the stone’s passages were probably Simon’s followers, Mr. Knohl contends.

The slaying of Simon, or any case of the suffering messiah, is seen as a necessary step toward national salvation, he says, pointing to lines 19 through 21 of the tablet — “In three days you will know that evil will be defeated by justice” — and other lines that speak of blood and slaughter as pathways to justice.


To make his case about the importance of the stone, Mr. Knohl focuses especially on line 80, which begins clearly with the words “L’shloshet yamin,” meaning “in three days.” The next word of the line was deemed partially illegible by Ms. Yardeni and Mr. Elitzur, but Mr. Knohl, who is an expert on the language of the Bible and Talmud, says the word is “hayeh,” or “live” in the imperative. It has an unusual spelling, but it is one in keeping with the era.

Two more hard-to-read words come later, and Mr. Knohl said he believed that he had deciphered them as well, so that the line reads, “In three days you shall live, I, Gabriel, command you.”

To whom is the archangel speaking? The next line says “Sar hasarin,” or prince of princes. Since the Book of Daniel, one of the primary sources for the Gabriel text, speaks of Gabriel and of “a prince of princes,” Mr. Knohl contends that the stone’s writings are about the death of a leader of the Jews who will be resurrected in three days.

He says further that such a suffering messiah is very different from the traditional Jewish image of the messiah as a triumphal, powerful descendant of King David.

“This should shake our basic view of Christianity,” he said as he sat in his office of the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem where he is a senior fellow in addition to being the Yehezkel Kaufman Professor of Biblical Studies at Hebrew University. “Resurrection after three days becomes a motif developed before Jesus, which runs contrary to nearly all scholarship. What happens in the New Testament was adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story.”

Ms. Yardeni said she was impressed with the reading and considered it indeed likely that the key illegible word was “hayeh,” or “live.” Whether that means Simon is the messiah under discussion, she is less sure.

Moshe Bar-Asher, president of the Israeli Academy of Hebrew Language and emeritus professor of Hebrew and Aramaic at the Hebrew University, said he spent a long time studying the text and considered it authentic, dating from no later than the first century B.C. His 25-page paper on the stone will be published in the coming months.

Regarding Mr. Knohl’s thesis, Mr. Bar-Asher is also respectful but cautious. “There is one problem,” he said. “In crucial places of the text there is lack of text. I understand Knohl’s tendency to find there keys to the pre-Christian period, but in two to three crucial lines of text there are a lot of missing words.”


Moshe Idel, a professor of Jewish thought at Hebrew University, said that given the way every tiny fragment from that era yielded scores of articles and books, “Gabriel’s Revelation” and Mr. Knohl’s analysis deserved serious attention. “Here we have a real stone with a real text,” he said. “This is truly significant.”

Mr. Knohl said that it was less important whether Simon was the messiah of the stone than the fact that it strongly suggested that a savior who died and rose after three days was an established concept at the time of Jesus. He notes that in the Gospels, Jesus makes numerous predictions of his suffering and New Testament scholars say such predictions must have been written in by later followers because there was no such idea present in his day.

But there was, he said, and “Gabriel’s Revelation” shows it.

“His mission is that he has to be put to death by the Romans to suffer so his blood will be the sign for redemption to come,” Mr. Knohl said. “This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel.”

Story Here

This is definitely interesting, though I doubt it's going to change minds on any side of the discussion.
 
Any self-respecting Christian would have already known that there were nearly a dozen other "ressurected messiah" myths that preceded Biblical accounts of Jesus.
 
This stuff should be obvious.

In cultures which had messiah beliefs... many claimed to be messiahs.

In cultures which had enlightenment myths.... many claimed to be enlightened.

In Islamic circles which have myths about the Mahdi... many have claimed to be the mahdi.

I don't think it's a blow to those who would have believed so-and-so were the messiah back in the day... but only to those who have had their beliefs pre-packaged to them as "obvious" conclusions in religion down to the present day. You can believe Jesus was the messiah... but hopefuly because you think THIS story fits the account of the messiah... not that he was the only possible candidate.
 
If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus, since it suggests that the story of his death and resurrection was not unique but part of a recognized Jewish tradition at the time.

Daniel Boyarin, a professor of Talmudic culture at the University of California at Berkeley, said that the stone was part of a growing body of evidence suggesting that Jesus could be best understood through a close reading of the Jewish history of his day.

All you Christians are really Jews and you don't even know it. Another massive Jewish conspiracy succeeds.
 
Gaborn said:
This is definitely interesting, though I doubt it's going to change minds on any side of the discussion.

And it makes no sense why it would. The entire basis of Christianity is that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies. The contention of the article in this regard really makes no sense from a Christian perspective. Rather, it would seem to just be more evidence, assuming you already accept the resurrection.

Ned Flanders said:
Any self-respecting Christian would have already known that there were nearly a dozen other "ressurected messiah" myths that preceded Biblical accounts of Jesus.

Sure, absolutely. But this tablet would have been Jewish prophesy, and given Jesus was a Jew, and claimed that he was there to fulfill prophecy, this tablet could be interpreted to be prophesying of Jesus.

mac said:
All you Christians are really Jews and you don't even know it. Another massive Jewish conspiracy succeeds.

A Christian with a clue would view Christianity as the fulfillment of the promise to the nation of Israel so yes, in a manner of speaking, all Christians would be "Jews" anyway.
 
Reading....About to post something...

Btw

I find it awesome, that a boy named Muhammad found the Dead Sea Scrolls :lol

Christians are jews :O
 
Dan Brown's New Book: The Messiah Tablet!

Gonna hold from posting my atheist comments.... of course these news will be buried within a few months and the churches will say this is a new age thing or something along those lines. Fear works well as tactic!
 
zoku88 said:
lol, what's the point of that? :lol


I don't know, I got excited :lol


Well, the dead sea scrolls speak of several Messiah's, it is no wonder ( to me ) that another one is found.


Keep in mind, Messiah means appointed.
 
dasein said:
The tablet doesn't discredit Christianity, if that's what you are insinuating.

It depends entirely on your interpretation. It can be seen as prophetic sure but it can also be seen as part of the origins of a myth.
 
Mash said:
It depends entirely on your interpretation. It can be seen as prophetic sure but it can also be seen as part of the origins of a myth.
So something's being part of the origins of a myth makes it not prophetic? Why either/or, and not both/and?

/devil's advocate
 
AmMortal said:
Look up Mithra

No lol, explain your point please, it's more interesting to have someone do that than for me to go bouncing around wikipedia and whereever. I know it has something very loosely to do with Manicheaism but that's all I know off the top of my head.

dasein said:
So something's being part of the origins of a myth makes it not prophetic? Why either/or, and not both/and?

/devil's advocate

I should have known someone with the name dasein would prefer to convolute than be succint (not that I think accuracy is always clear). My point was very simple. This sort of writing could have been the cause of a lot of mythical ideas being attributed attached to a travelling teacher named Jesus, or it could be something prophetic about him. The two typical interpretations will depend on prior beliefs.

/potato salad.
 
Mash said:
No lol, explain your point please, it's more interesting to have someone do that than for me to go bouncing around wikipedia and whereever. I know it has something very loosely to do with Manicheaism but that's all I know off the top of my head.



I should have known someone with the name dasein would prefer to convolute than be succint (not that I think accuracy is always clear). My point was very simple. This sort of writing could have been the cause of a lot of mythical ideas being attributed attached to a travelling teacher named Jesus, or it could be something prophetic about him. The two typical interpretations will depend on prior beliefs.

/potato salad.


Sure thing

Mithra ( Persian ) was born 25th of December Mithra the god man from Persia was also visited shortly after birth by three shepherds.

As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
--He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
--His resurrection was celebrated every year.
--He was called “the Good Shepherd” and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
--He was considered the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” [Word] “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
--His sacred day was Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
--Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
--His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”


Horus ( egyptian god ) Was born of Isis-Meri in December 25thin a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by Three wise men.

Horus walked on water. etc.
[/B]
Many other references, point to the fact that the later Idea of Jesus being half-god, were borrowed from ancient civilizations. Exactly, what you'd expect Romans to do...


Dionysus/Bacchus

Dionysus or Bacchus is thought of as being Greek, but he is a remake of the Egyptian god Osiris, whose cult extended throughout a large part of the ancient world for thousands of years. Dionysus’s religion was well-developed in Thrace, northeast of Greece, and Phrygia, which became Galatia, where Attis also later reigned. Although a Dionysus is best remembered for the rowdy celebrations in his name, which was Latinized as Bacchus, he had many other functions and contributed several aspects to the Jesus character:

--Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.
--He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
--He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.”
--He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
--Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.
--He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
--He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
--He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”
--He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.
--His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.

Krishna of India
--Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki (“Divine One”) on December 25.
--His earthly father was a carpenter, who was off in the city paying tax while Krishna was born.
--His birth was signaled by a star in the east and attended by angels and shepherds, at which time he was presented with spices.
--The heavenly hosts danced and sang at his birth.
--Krishna was anointed on the head with oil by a woman whom he healed.
--He worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
--He castigated the clergy, charging them with “ambition and hypocrisy . . . Tradition says he fell victim to their vengeance.”
--Krishna’s “beloved disciple” was Arjuina or Ar-jouan (Jouhn).
--He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
--He gave his disciples the ability to work miracles.
--His path was “strewn with branches.”
--In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
--Krishna was killed around the age of 30, and the sun darkened at his death.
--He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven “in the sight of all men.”
--He was depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet, as well as having a heart emblem on his clothing.
--Krishna is the “lion of the tribe of Saki.”
--He was called the “Shepherd of God” and considered the “Redeemer,” “Firstborn,” “Sin-Bearer,” “Liberator,” “Universal Word.”
--He was deemed the “Son of God” and “our Lord and Savior,” who came to earth to die for man’s salvation.
--He was the second person of the Trinity.

Many , many more...
 
My guess is there was a sect that existed already at the time, probably only since recent times before Jesus' birth.

So basically, "Christianity" existed in some form already, all the main apostles and Jesus himself were probably born to members of that sect, etc., and eventually fulfilled their own prophecies.

If such a sect existed before Jesus' birth, then it makes the whole story of "Christ" even more likely to have been a fabrication from its own members. A big self-fulfilled act.
 

The irony.

Zeitgeist is a hilarious movie since one of its biggest messages is that people should "wake up" and stop blindly believing everything that's presented to them a certain way. Yet, that's exactly what many people who watch the movie do. It doesn't take much research to disprove nearly the entire first part of the movie.
 
AmMortal said:

I'll admit I didn't read your whole post as it was too long and I don't care enough (and can you give sources please), but your emphasis on December 25th doesn't mean anything, because that is not the day Jesus was born, but rather they day it is celebrated.

Edit: Again, what are you sources? I just looked up something on Krishna real quick and it said he was born in July?
 
bachikarn said:
I'll admit I didn't read your whole post as it was too long and I don't care enough (and can you give sources please), but your emphasis on December 25th doesn't mean anything, because that is not the day Jesus was born, but rather they day it is celebrated.


I'll gladly get rid of the emhpasis, but read the whole thing :)
 
bachikarn said:
I'll admit I didn't read your whole post as it was too long and I don't care enough (and can you give sources please), but your emphasis on December 25th doesn't mean anything, because that is not the day Jesus was born, but rather they day it is celebrated.

Edit: Again, what are you sources? I just looked up something on Krishna real quick and it said he was born in July?

A Loose Change-like crocumentary.
 
Ned Flanders said:
Any self-respecting Christian would have already known that there were nearly a dozen other "ressurected messiah" myths that preceded Biblical accounts of Jesus.


That is pretty much true, most Educated ones at least know about the fact that both the Myths of Horus and Mithra pretty much echo the story of Christ.
 
bachikarn said:
I'll admit I didn't read your whole post as it was too long and I don't care enough (and can you give sources please), but your emphasis on December 25th doesn't mean anything, because that is not the day Jesus was born, but rather they day it is celebrated.

Edit: Again, what are you sources? I just looked up something on Krishna real quick and it said he was born in July?


So you ignored the rest of his post then attack it?
wtf.

There are certain parallels between his birth and infancy and that of Christ's which tend to link these two important figures together.

Here's my source which states the similar dates of birth
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/k/krishna.html
 
Seth is right about this not making sense in regards to a shakeup of Christianity. I think it would be more a troubling bit of text for Judaism than anything.
 
Precision GAF advertising:
imgad.jpg


beaten by 'my name is ed'
 
AmMortal said:
Sure thing

Mithra ( Persian ) was born 25th of December Mithra the god man from Persia was also visited shortly after birth by three shepherds.

As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
--He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
--His resurrection was celebrated every year.
--He was called “the Good Shepherd” and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
--He was considered the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” [Word] “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
--His sacred day was Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
--Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
--His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”


Horus ( egyptian god ) Was born of Isis-Meri in December 25thin a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by Three wise men.

Horus walked on water. etc.
[/B]
Many other references, point to the fact that the later Idea of Jesus being half-god, were borrowed from ancient civilizations. Exactly, what you'd expect Romans to do...


Dionysus/Bacchus

Dionysus or Bacchus is thought of as being Greek, but he is a remake of the Egyptian god Osiris, whose cult extended throughout a large part of the ancient world for thousands of years. Dionysus’s religion was well-developed in Thrace, northeast of Greece, and Phrygia, which became Galatia, where Attis also later reigned. Although a Dionysus is best remembered for the rowdy celebrations in his name, which was Latinized as Bacchus, he had many other functions and contributed several aspects to the Jesus character:

--Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.
--He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
--He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.”
--He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
--Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.
--He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
--He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
--He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”
--He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.
--His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.

Krishna of India
--Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki (“Divine One”) on December 25.
--His earthly father was a carpenter, who was off in the city paying tax while Krishna was born.
--His birth was signaled by a star in the east and attended by angels and shepherds, at which time he was presented with spices.
--The heavenly hosts danced and sang at his birth.
--Krishna was anointed on the head with oil by a woman whom he healed.
--He worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
--He castigated the clergy, charging them with “ambition and hypocrisy . . . Tradition says he fell victim to their vengeance.”
--Krishna’s “beloved disciple” was Arjuina or Ar-jouan (Jouhn).
--He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
--He gave his disciples the ability to work miracles.
--His path was “strewn with branches.”
--In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
--Krishna was killed around the age of 30, and the sun darkened at his death.
--He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven “in the sight of all men.”
--He was depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet, as well as having a heart emblem on his clothing.
--Krishna is the “lion of the tribe of Saki.”
--He was called the “Shepherd of God” and considered the “Redeemer,” “Firstborn,” “Sin-Bearer,” “Liberator,” “Universal Word.”
--He was deemed the “Son of God” and “our Lord and Savior,” who came to earth to die for man’s salvation.
--He was the second person of the Trinity.

Many , many more...

Zeitgeist itself got a numbef of "facts" wrong in its bash on Christianity. You might want to open up the Interweb and double check those figures. Yes many were "born of a virgin" and December 25th was significant to many cultures pre-dating Christianity, using Zeitgeist talking points doesn't help your position.
 
I think people are missing the point. The interesting thing about this tablet is two fold. First, it contradicts primary understanding of Jewish perception of the Messiah
He says further that such a suffering messiah is very different from the traditional Jewish image of the messiah as a triumphal, powerful descendant of King David.

And second, that the messiah figure would die and be resurrected in 3 days. Both of those traits seem rather unusual and oddly against most of what I understand Jewish thought to have been.
 
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