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[guggnichso]

Don't bash the great games just because Killzone 2 isn't selling well.

Well, to be honest, RE5 HAD really really shitty controls. It was a great game though, even more so in co-op mode.

 

[Acid08]

Don't bash the great games just because Killzone 2 isn't selling well.

wat

 

[CrushDance]

Don't bash the great games just because Killzone 2 isn't selling well.

Look. The game had 1 million retail orders before launch in Europe, sold 600k in the U.S. to consumers, maybe half of that in Europe. We don't know for sure about retail orders for NA but it'd likely be around the same 1 mil mark. The game has sold over 1 million to consumers worldwide and that is a great achievment, may not be the big game most thought it would be but it's not a flop or anything like that either. The reason I mentioned retail orders is because those count as well towards money made on the title as evident by the massive price drops of games post launch(Halo 3 CE for $30 and MGS4 CE for $30).

So at the end of the day the amount of games sold as a total from the project is easily maybe 2.5 million(likelyhalf consumers half retail based on SCEE) not to mention the bundles by SCEE and others surely to come it's highly likely that Killzone will break 3 million after all is said and done.

 

[Zen]

I'd still maintain that the lack on a party system for multiplayer hurt the game more so than 'bad controls'.

 

[TTP]

Don't bash the great games just because Killzone 2 isn't selling well.

He isn't doing that. Just offering an example of how "bad controls" don't necessarily affect sales.

RE5 ain't a "great game" anyway.

 

[CrushDance]

I'd still maintain that the lack on a party system for multiplayer hurt the game more so than 'bad controls'.

I think they really dropped the ball with the multiplayer aspect, when it works it's a lot of fun but getting there is the problem and it really takes away from the game. Today me, FFO and CJ were trying to join a room with other Gaffers and it was really frustrating as we couldn't move as a group. Slots would either fill up and one of us would be left out or it'd be unbalanced in Gaf vs Random matches.

I'm looking forward to the new DLC(Didn't buy the other one) becuase the maps look great, but I kind of wish they'd focus more on making multiplayer fast and easy before anything else. Especially carry over of points when DC'd etc.

 

[PSGames]

WTF? controls now??

One good example of a shitty game with horrible controls and still sells amazingly well is RE5, it sold because of it's brand and Capcom marketed the shit out of it which Sony failed to do. I saw more ads for the MLB08 The Show here in Canada than the Killzone ads, hell they are still airing here.

Oh please. They both had DEMOS to try. And RE5 sold incredibly well so obviously the controls weren't that bad. It sold because the game is FUN.

 

[brain_stew]

You're not serious are you?

GTA4 says hi.

When do review sites EVER hype the shit out of a game and then give it a low or average score? (which virtually exposes what clueless idiots they are)

Never. Look at a game like God Hand. The review personally just didn't like it, but gave it a fucked score anyway because there was no external pressure to give it a good review score, and also no fear of backlash from the gaming community.

Can you imagine what would happen if any review gave Killzone 2 less than say 8? Despite 8 being a good score for a game? There's a good chance that the world as we know it, MAY have come to an end.

To claim that Killzone 2 had great reviews so the controls MUST be ok is just insane. Despite MANY of the reviews MENTIONING the controls would be an issue for 'some'.

Big name, hyped games RARELY if ever get low scores from review sites. I mean christ, look at the backlash Zelda TP got for an 8.8 for fucks sake. 8.8 is a great score and look at the response.

I mean shit, Killzone 2 got a 9.5 for graphics somewhere, and the Killzone 2 thread reactions were akin to someone who just watched his mother get raped and murdered.

Well the one publication that doesn't tend to follow that mantra; Edge, gave the game a 7/10, make of that what you will. Oh, and yes, the backlash was legendary, it doesn't surprise me that many publications and gaming journalists are too pussy to face that sort of reaction, considering the general standard of that sector of the industry.

 

[TTP]

Well the one publication that doesn't tend to follow that mantra; Edge, gave the game a 7/10, make of that what you will.

Going as far as saying "tight controls" no less.

 

[CrushDance]

Oh please. They both had DEMOS to try. And RE5 sold incredibly well so obviously the controls weren't that bad. It sold because the game is FUN.

What does your post imply? Go back and read the RE% demo threads. People were moaning and crying about the controls before even using them and still did after the fact. A decent number of people said they would not buy the game due to the controls in those threads, just like a decent number of people said in the KZ2 demo thread.

Some found it good, some found it bad for both titles. How can you say RE5 is "fun" and "KZ2" isn't? By the very act of people disagreeing on RE5 and KZ2 controls, your post makes no sense as to good and bad as they're all relative.

Killzone's sales are due to the PS3 userbase, some poor marketing(From what I saw in my region) and other more notable big games coming out in the same timeframe. Not really that difficult at all. Maybe people didn't feel it like they did with RE5.

 

[Rapping Granny]

Don't bash the great games just because Killzone 2 isn't selling well.

My balls it's a great game, no one would have gave a shit about it if it wasn't named Resident Evil.

Killzone's sales are due to the PS3 userbase.

That's another bullshit excuse, Gears managed to sell over 5M when the 360 was around the 20million mark.

 

[CrushDance]

My balls it's a great game, no one would have gave a shit about it if it wasn't named Resident Evil.



That's another bullshit excuse, Gears managed to sell over 5M when the 360 was around the 20million mark.

I mean the fact that the PS3 userbase for the most part doesn't seem to buy games as much as on the 360 or Wii. I did not mean in terms of userbase numbers. Tie ratios are fine but the massive sales just aren't there when you look at it on a regional basis, The PS3 usually comes close or eeks it out thanks to Japan for a few games at best.

 

[Future]

Killzone was good and looked great, but not enough to blow minds. It didnt have the good word of mouth to carry it through, nor the brand strength to make people give a damn. It's multiplayer didnt make anyone's friends buy the game cuz they are still playing CoD4/5. And looking back, while the AI was amazing, there werent enough big memorable moments to make people continuously talk about it.

Gears, in comparison, was a new brand that could have faltered like Killzone 2. But the stop and pop cover focus, chainsaw kills, and unique coop mechanics set itself apart enough to get people talking. Add in awesome marketing and you got great sustained sales

I think Killzone was actually marketed pretty well. I saw Killzone ads all the time, it was in all the magazines, and was massively hyped due to the Target Render back at E3 a long time ago. More ads wouldnt have done shit. The game just didnt have mass appeal. Proof that peeps arent going to lick up any FPS that gets thrown out there, even though this one was actually pretty damn good.

And as much as people like to defend them, sluggish controls unlike 90% of FPS games in their demo probably did not help.

 

[PSGames]

What does your post imply? Go back and read the RE% demo threads. People were moaning and crying about the controls before even using them and still did after the fact. A decent number of people said they would not buy the game due to the controls in those threads, just like a decent number of people said in the KZ2 demo thread.

Some found it good, some found it bad for both titles. How can you say RE5 is "fun" and "KZ2" isn't? By the very act of people disagreeing on RE5 and KZ2 controls, your post makes no sense as to good and bad as they're all relative.

Killzone's sales are due to the PS3 userbase, some poor marketing(From what I saw in my region) and other more notable big games coming out in the same timeframe. Not really that difficult at all. Maybe people didn't feel it like they did with RE5.

I'm not saying KZ2 isn't fun I was calling bullshit on him saying people bought RE5 with "shitty controls" just because of name recognition and marketing. People enjoyed the demo and ultimately bought the game because it was FUN plain and simple. Just because GAF didn't like the controls doesn't mean shit when it comes to the general populus.

 

[CrushDance]

I'm not saying KZ2 isn't fun I was calling bullshit on him saying people bought RE5 with "shitty controls" just because of name recognition and marketing. People enjoyed the demo and ultimately bought the game because it was FUN plain and simple. Just because GAF didn't like the controls doesn't mean shit when it comes to the general populus.

I agree, just wanted to clarify.

 

[tahrikmili]

How much did LAIR sell?

Yes I went there. There are ludicrous sums being tossed around concerning the budget of this project. I'm honestly concerned about Guerilla Games' future.

 

[CrushDance]

How much did LAIR sell?

Yes I went there. There are ludicrous sums being tossed around concerning the budget of this project. I'm honestly concerned about Guerilla Games' future.

LAIR sold poorly, Killzone did not set the charts on fire as expected but did well enough if Sony is happy with the sales. It's fastest SCEI title to reach 1 million I believe as for Guerrilla, they're a part of SCEI, ain't dying anytime soon. Secondly it was said to be the most costly media product ever in Dutch history, which is only about 20 million or so I believe.

But, our latest update comes from a Dutch newspaper -- Guerilla Games is located in the Netherlands -- who claim Killzone PS3 is the most expensive multimedia undertaking the country's ever had, with the game's reportedly over 21 million budget

Also note that things learned from this project will most liekyl be shared in SCEWWS and it's a solid investment. The cost easily fits in with other big releases.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

How much did LAIR sell?

Yes I went there. There are ludicrous sums being tossed around concerning the budget of this project. I'm honestly concerned about Guerilla Games' future.

Not sure, but I bet Killzone 2 sold and will sell many more copies than Lair in it's lifetime. At least the game received very positive reviews for anyone who is still sitting on the fence. If the game fails to break 1.5 million worldwide in over a year, then that would probably be much lower than anticipated and extremely underwhelming then. If MotorstormR really did hit over 1 million a few months ago like sources claim(which I still have a hard time believing), I can easily see KZ2 hitting at least 2.5-3 million worldwide units within several more months. I think GG should be fine because I think they are a part of Sony now.

 

[Kuroyume]

nvm

 

[Scottlarock]

didn't PDZ sell 750 thousand early on and is well above a million now?

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

Killzone 2 was only $21 million to make? I heard anywhere from $20 million, to $40 million to $55 million. If it was only $21 million, I would imagine that anything over 1 million sales would be suffucient.

 

[tahrikmili]

didn't PDZ sell 750 thousand early on and is well above a million now?

KZ2 selling PDZ numbers is a sign of success or failuer? This thread has gone places..

 

[GCX]

didn't PDZ sell 750 thousand early on and is well above a million now?

Launch games always sell well.

I mean, fucking Red Steel is well above a million ww.

 

[TEH-CJ]

wut

 

[zoukka]

In the end, Killzone is probably the main reason for Killzone 2 not selling billions.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

KZ2 selling PDZ numbers is a sign of success or failuer? This thread has gone places..

I think what he means is, PDZ didn't sell it's respectable numbers all within a few months. The numbers gradually escalated with time meaning KZ2 sales are not going to stop within 3 months. It will sell more throughout the year and beyond.

 

[Subitai]

You gotta feel for Sony. They went from a video that nearly crushed the 360 on hype alone to this. We can all armchair QB what we would have done to make it move better, but for some reason the hype didn't carry over into the sales Sony originally was projecting.

Who knows, maybe it will grow legs and build hype for KZ3 after they get lobbies fixed.

 

[PSGames]

Yeah KZ2 was rumored to be the most expensive game of all time or some such. Over 40 Million. Can't remember where I read it.

 

[Scottlarock]

KZ2 selling PDZ numbers is a sign of success or failuer? This thread has gone places..

well they are both first party, so the game that costed the least ended up making the most.

 

[CrushDance]

Apparently Killzone 2, developed by Amsterdam-based Guerilla Games, is the most expensive entertainment project in Dutch history, with a whopping great budget in excess of $20 million (£10 million).

Outside of Sony President of Worldwide Studios Phil Harrison suspiciously promising aspects of Killzone PS3 apparently look even better than the presented CG movie from E3 2005, we haven't heard a peep about the controversial shooter. But, our latest update comes from a Dutch newspaper -- Guerilla Games is located in the Netherlands -- who claim Killzone PS3 is the most expensive multimedia undertaking the country's ever had, with the game's budget reportedly over $21 million.

There. You guys are remembering wrong, it's the most expensive in Dutch history NOT gaming as a whole.

 

[Brashnir]

well they are both first party, so the game that costed the least ended up making the most.

why? why? This thread was bad enough, now we have to endure comments about how Rare cost MS 300 million dollars, and how comparisons aren't fair because PDZ cost $50 at retail.

 

[EazyB]

You gotta feel for Sony. They went from a video that nearly crushed the 360 on hype alone to this. We can all armchair QB what we would have done to make it move better, but for some reason the hype didn't carry over into the sales Sony originally was projecting.

Who knows, maybe it will grow legs and build hype for KZ3 after they get lobbies fixed.

Yeah, KZ and especially KZ2 have had a colorful past. While trying to follow the KZ2 hype thread they'd always post links to this one PS3 viral marketer who spelled out how KZ2 would destroy the entire 360 fanbase. Something about "tray for life." Never thought I'd see self-respecting posters rally behind someone like that. The kind of blatant fanboyism that KZ2 was able to provoke from both sides was incredible.

Needless to say, I don't see any more links to that guy anymore. :lol

 

[Scottlarock]

why? why? This thread was bad enough, now we have to endure comments about how Rare cost MS 300 million dollars, and how comparisons aren't fair because PDZ cost $50 at retail.

sorry, my bad...

 

[zoukka]

Yeah, KZ and especially KZ2 have had a colorful past. While trying to follow the KZ2 hype thread they'd always post links to this one PS3 viral marketer who spelled out how KZ2 would destroy the entire 360 fanbase. Something about "tray for life." Never thought I'd see self-respecting posters rally behind someone like that. The kind of blatant fanboyism that KZ2 was able to provoke from both sides was incredible.

Needless to say, I don't see any more links to that guy anymore. :lol

Trey was probably the lowest pit I've witnessed in GAF.

 

[Aaron]

My balls it's a great game, no one would have gave a shit about it if it wasn't named Resident Evil.

Most of the bashing comes from the fact that it's an RE game that doesn't play or feel like an RE one should. With Capcom's relative successes with new franchises, it would probably be better received by critics if it hadn't been an RE game.

KZ2 should have also been a new franchise. Not many people even remember KZ, and most of those that do it isn't fondly. Releasing a sequel is a little off putting for people who don't know the original.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Trey was probably the lowest pit I've witnessed in GAF.

That whole thread was pretty embarrassing, honestly. I mean, it had its moments, but on the whole, embarrassing.

 

[Haunted]

Killzone 2 was only $21 million to make? I heard anywhere from $20 million, to $40 million to $55 million. If it was only $21 million, I would imagine that anything over 1 million sales would be suffucient.

Again, the last number I've heard (surfer girl rumour + a dutch article) was that the game nearly doubled its initial budget of €21 million to roughly €40 million.

Which would be something like $55 million at current conversion.

The only "official" number we know of is that it's cost over €17/18 million (which converts to roughly $24/25 million), which is the budget of the most expensive Dutch entertainment project before Killzone (Verhoeven's Zwartboek). They don't say how much it's over that, though.


So we've got an absolute minimum bar of roughly €18 million/$25 million, with reports topping out at €40 million/$55 million.

Should be somewhere in between. As usual with big budget games, it's a guessing game. :/

 

[PSGames]

There. You guys are remembering wrong, it's the most expensive in Dutch history NOT gaming as a whole.

It says over 20 million but doesnt tell us how much over. I'm pretty sure it's well beyond that.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

It says over 20 million but doesnt tell us how much over. I'm pretty sure it's well beyond that.

CrushDance is simplefolk, stop trying to confuse it.

 

[Rad Agast]

Give it up about the fucking controls already. Nothing is wrong with them. Want to know what the problem is? They aren't Quake's. There is your problem. They aren't the speed up, weightless, floaty style the vast majority of games use. They actually put some weight on to them and hence why allot of people were turned off by them. Its just different.

1) This "weight" thing is getting out of hand. Counter-Strike which was a free mod back in 1999 had this "weight" you talk about. A bunch of guys in a mod community knew how to do it right 10 years ago.

2) Stop bringing Quake into the subject. There's a very good reason why that game was and is still being played in tournaments around the world.

 

[joey_z]

'Realistic Controls' is the new 'Subtle Beauty'.

 

[PSGames]

Yep it was Surfer Girl. Here's the story:

Disaster: You Guerrillas Have Created a Drainzone

Take it away, friendo:

remember this story? that figure was actually €21 million
($30 million) and it has only gone up from there (by gone
up i mean it has doubled to €42 million/$60 million). by
the time killzone 2 comes out it will dethrone shenmue as
the most expensive video game ever made. the game
should have cost the former figure but guerrilla's
managerial lacks any sort of financial or work allocation
skills, the studio has high turnover and a few other things.
because of this incapacity a nice portion of the team at
studio cambridge is assisting in development. to top this
off the game may be pretty but it's barely mediocre and
past the point of no return. the september release date
floating around will without doubt be missed if guerrilla
sticks to their intention of not releasing the game until its
done which will be early next year.
To add to this, over at Insomniac, there is a general
feeling of sharp resent towards Guerrilla and Killzone, as
they believe that Guerrilla is imbibing the currency whilst
they are delivering. In far less time and with less people,
Insomniac have a far better title that is further along in
development. This resent seems justified.

And he/she has been like 99% correct about everything.

It's interesting reading how Insomniac felt about all this.

 

[tahrikmili]

Even at a budget of 20m€ this project ROI is awful. Most of that budget is made of loans and if you less the financing expenses from the sales revenue they seem rather fucked.

If it's 40m€ they are just fucked sore.

 

[[Nintex]]

Even at a budget of 20m€ this project ROI is awful. Most of that budget is made of loans and if you less the financing expenses from the sales revenue they seem rather fucked.

If it's 40m€ they are just fucked sore.

There's a rumor out there that the EU helped fund the project.

 

[brain_stew]

Even at a budget of 20m€ this project ROI is awful. Most of that budget is made of loans and if you less the financing expenses from the sales revenue they seem rather fucked.

If it's 40m€ they are just fucked sore.

It definitely doesn't seem like Sony's best ever use of funds either way but then what did they honestly expect throwing so much money at a followup to one of the biggest FPS disasters of recent memory?

I wonder what might have been if they gave that sort money and time to an FPS developer with proven pedigree like id, Valve or Epic? Certainly Microsoft's funding of Gears 1 and 2 (which cumulatively seem to have a similar budget to the single release from GG) was a much better ROI. Just imagine what id could do with that sort of money and a closed box environment? Blows my mind.

 

[guggnichso]

Just imagine what Id could do with that sort of money and a closed box environment?

Buy lots of internet porn?

 

[PSGames]

Ok I'm not one to gossip. But Element (who works in the industry) over in another thread is saying that KZ2's costs which includes marketing is roughly140 million and he heard that from GG's own employees... Holy shit :lol

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362318&page=6

 

[Doubledex]

Ok I'm not one to gossip. But Element (who works in the industry) over in another thread is saying that KZ2's costs which includes marketing is roughly140 million and he heard that from GG's own employees... Holy shit :lol

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=362318&page=6

bullshit

 

[dejan]

'Realistic Controls' is the new 'Subtle Beauty'.

The good thing about these sales is that most developers won't touch these 'realistic controls' with a ten foot stick now. Remember that game Gears of War and it's cover mechanic? The horde of clones it spewed? Just imagine for second ...

 

[Zhuk]

It definitely doesn't seem like Sony's best ever use of funds either way but then what did they honestly expect throwing so much money at a followup to one of the biggest FPS disasters of recent memory?

I'm guessing that Sony went into a panic after they saw the overwhelming reaction to the E3 2005 trailer, it didn't help when they basically wouldn't admit it was CG. They knew they had to deliver at least something, otherwise they would be the laughing stock of the gaming world.