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[dude]

Objectification of women contributes to objectification of women. It's not having the characters dress in short skirts which is the problem, the problem has more to do with why the characters are dressed in short skirts.

Again, as I said like a kajillion times in this thread - Having a sexualized design can be justified.

Other than that - Yeah, most of the time they are in short skirt for no other reason than to please male players. Why are the character in Valkyria Chronicles dressed in short skirts that look like a school girl outfit? Why does Lara Croft look like some sort of breast monster in earlier games? For no other reason than male players.

When just accept these sorts of designs, we are embracing a culture that has an inherent disrespect for women, it sees them as objects. We should demand that designers do not default to designing women as male fantasies. This worked in the PE Kickstarter for exmaple - A character was presented in ridiculous boob armor - but thanks to fans it was changed to an armor that actually makes sense and doesn't unnecessarily sexualize the character.

I will say that it's not like the design is the sole factor here, but it's a subtle and persistent way in which women are objectified.

Can you elaborate on the "large gender gap" comment? As far as I am aware, Japanese manga and anime has been far more successful at developing a female audience than American comics. The Japanese market has a much larger number of works aimed primarily at women than what you see in the US. As a whole, American fantasy art, be it in Comics, trading cards, or videogames, has major problems of its own with over-sexualization of women and appealing to a female audience.

Japanese games such as the Atelier series or Harvest Moon seem to have done a much better job at directly appealing to female fans than many Western games. So why are you claiming that there is a gender gap issue in particular with anime art-styles?

Japan as a country is one of the worst when it comes to gender issues. The gender gap there is one of the worst in the developed world.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

Meh, I don't see why anime games are getting singled-out here, to be honest. It's not as if the majority of non-anime games have achieved any sort of maturity on this topic.

 

[gngf123]

Meh, I don't see why anime games are getting singled-out here, to be honest. It's not as if the majority of non-anime games have achieved any sort of maturity on this topic.

I would take a guess because we are used to it in more western games, and we know that not every western game is an oversexualized mess.

Things always stand out more when they are from a different culture and come with a style you aren't used to. People get the assumption that games in that style are only like the ones they have seen.

 

[MGrant]

Can you elaborate on the "large gender gap" comment? As far as I am aware, Japanese manga and anime has been far more successful at developing a female audience than American comics. The Japanese market has a much larger number of works aimed primarily at women than what you see in the US. As a whole, American fantasy art, be it in Comics, trading cards, or videogames, has major problems of its own with over-sexualization of women and appealing to a female audience.

Japanese games such as the Atelier series or Harvest Moon seem to have done a much better job at directly appealing to female fans than many Western games. So why are you claiming that there is a gender gap issue in particular with anime art-styles?

Sure. I'll preface this by saying that I subscribe to Judith Butler's theories about gender being performative, by which I mean that we are largely taught from birth how our gender is supposed to act. If you're not big on formal feminist/gender theory, feel free to disregard. An example of this would be boys' toys vs girls' toys -- there's no reason that boys' toys should have a monopoly on creating and building and action, but they do, and that's because of the idea that girls are to perform as caretakers and organizers rather than creators.

When I say Japan has a gender gap problem, I'm not really talking about making things that appeal to women. I think it's great that there is a market for women, especially when you see the things the US tries to pass off as "for women" (if I see ONE more shitty NBC "women's sitcom" that features an affluent white couple and their baby, I swear to God...). But Japan also has a deep-seated "performance" for its genders -- not dramatically more destructive than Western cultures, but there is a higher fetishization of things like rape and coercion, and a general expectation that women are subservient and coquettish. Factor in the power differential between men and women in Japanese society (less than 30% of leadership positions are filled by women), and it becomes relevant to note the pop culture attitudes that demoralize and dehumanize women: in this case, fetishization of women and girls in Japanese games.

 

[Mileena]

Meh, I don't see why anime games are getting singled-out here, to be honest. It's not as if the majority of non-anime games have achieved any sort of maturity on this topic.

My guess is because anime girls usually look 9 regardless of what the makers say their age is

 

[zkylon]

Meh, I don't see why anime games are getting singled-out here, to be honest. It's not as if the majority of non-anime games have achieved any sort of maturity on this topic.

agreed

 

[Ken]

Meh, I don't see why anime games are getting singled-out here, to be honest. It's not as if the majority of non-anime games have achieved any sort of maturity on this topic.

Because

I could come up with easier examples on western games when I thought about it

again, im not really trying to go on a rant about the state of japanese games or anything like that. I just think there's an audience for that and that most anime-looking games try to cater to that at least a bit

 

[Valkyria]

Oh, do explain what is the right problem then?

Anyway having girls dress in short skirts, exposed skin and other forms of over sexualizations as default in games contribute to the objectification of women in video games. They are there as "eye-candy" for the male gamers. Deny it all you want.

Again for a kajilion time as you say, NO. You are trying to make your moral standards the universal ones. Women, not in gaming or movies or real life that dress like that are being objectified. A women is objectified when is acted upon (thanks Anita for the phrase), not of how it looks.

 

[Moonlight]

Oh, do explain what is the right problem then?

Anyway having girls dress in short skirts, exposed skin and other forms of over sexualizations as default in games contribute to the objectification of women in video games. They are there as "eye-candy" for the male gamers. Deny it all you want.

You're right, of course.

Not to say that there's anything wrong with hijabs/burqas/niqabs specifically, but this is apparently this is the most effective way to 'prevent' or curb 'oversexualization' by this line of logic.

There's a difference between being conscious of objectification and being straight up puritanical.

 

[A Black Falcon]

You're right, of course.

Not to say that there's anything wrong with hijabs/burqas/nijabs specifically, but this is apparently this is the most effective way to 'prevent' to curb 'oversexualization'.

There's a difference between being conscious of objectification and being straight up puritanical.

No, that's objectification too. I mean, the whole reasoning behind forcing women to wear that kind of thing is because of the belief that if men see women wearing normal clothes they'll have uncontrollable urges to assault them, or something; it's something sexist to its core, anyway. I know that veils and those things also have a historical root as something worn by noble women in order to separate them from the masses, and then they became more common as people copied the nobility (or Muhammad's family, in the case of Islam; veils weren't only from Islam though), but regardless of the excuse for having veiled women, it's sexism. I mean, noble or regular, when dressed like that (and secluded from society a lot of the time, something that almost always comes with this) one cannot be as functional a person as they could dressed normally and out in society, as men are allowed to be. Overall it's significantly more sexist than anything even from Japan, in its implications socially.

As far as games go, I know that some people mention that kind of as a joke, but character/art design isn't the only element to sexualization, it's also about how the character is written and treated in the game.

But yes, sexualization is definitely a very difficult issue which it's hard to find easy solutions for...

Sure. I'll preface this by saying that I subscribe to Judith Butler's theories about gender being performative, by which I mean that we are largely taught from birth how our gender is supposed to act. If you're not big on formal feminist/gender theory, feel free to disregard. An example of this would be boys' toys vs girls' toys -- there's no reason that boys' toys should have a monopoly on creating and building and action, but they do, and that's because of the idea that girls are to perform as caretakers and organizers rather than creators.

I agree that a lot of it is learned, but I think the fact that every human society is sexist in some way or another says that some of it has to be natural... it's only partially learned. Still though of course there's a lot that can be done to reduce sexism in society.

When I say Japan has a gender gap problem, I'm not really talking about making things that appeal to women. I think it's great that there is a market for women, especially when you see the things the US tries to pass off as "for women" (if I see ONE more shitty NBC "women's sitcom" that features an affluent white couple and their baby, I swear to God...). But Japan also has a deep-seated "performance" for its genders -- not dramatically more destructive than Western cultures, but there is a higher fetishization of things like rape and coercion, and a general expectation that women are subservient and coquettish. Factor in the power differential between men and women in Japanese society (less than 30% of leadership positions are filled by women), and it becomes relevant to note the pop culture attitudes that demoralize and dehumanize women: in this case, fetishization of women and girls in Japanese games.

Good post. I entirely agree with this.

 

[Deified Data]

Corpse party seems to fit the bill.

Are the three girls on the bottom left identical triplets, or just poorly designed?

 

[Moonlight]

No, that's objectification too. I mean, the whole reasoning behind forcing women to wear that kind of thing is because of the belief that if men see women they'll have uncontrollable urges to assault them, or something; it's something sexist to its core, anyway. It's significantly more sexist than anything even from Japan, in its implications socially.

I'm not going to get into Islamic gender issues because this isn't the discussion for that. I was just taking that quote to its' logical extreme. It's rather explicit in an assertion that if women are depicted wearing short skirts or exposing skin, it inherently contributes to a culture or atmosphere anathematic to women. So I provided an example of something that does the inverse. And I think it could be agreed upon that it's not an effective way to 'solve' sexualization or objectification of women in video-games or mass-media in general.

 

[Kagami]

When just accept these sorts of designs, we are embracing a culture that has an inherent disrespect for women, it sees them as objects. We should demand that designers do not default to designing women as male fantasies.

I want to see see male characters all designed as female fantasies, not take away male fantasies. I reject your no-fun-allowed future in favor of a balanced omni-pandering one.

Japan's got the right idea on that. Japanese TV, movies, games, books, comics, everything is full of pretty guys engineered to appeal to women, that would make American men recoil while screaming "GAY!!!" Every now and then a little leaks out to the West in the form of things like Final Fantasy, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. The slang term, "ikemen"--handsome-faced man--is on the tip of everyone's tongue. The best selling BD/DVD of 2012 wasn't a movie--it was boy idol band Arashi's concert video. Enjoy cooking shows, but think they'd be better with nothing but handsome male chefs? Here you go. Wish game magazines would just focus on pretty boys in games so you don't have to waste time reading about other stuff? Don't worry, they've got those.

 

[gngf123]

The people posting pictures of burkas and things I think are slightly missing the point of what dude was trying to say...

It's not that he believes short skirts are a sign of objectification in video games. It's that he believes that short skirts and exposed skin are seen as the "default" style. Instead of the variation you would expect from real life - and to a certain extent, men in games.

Now, I don't agree with this, but I can at least see where he is coming from.

 

[A Black Falcon]

I'm not going to get into Islamic gender issues because this isn't the discussion for that. I was just taking that quote to its' logical extreme. It's rather explicit in an assertion that if women are depicted wearing short skirts or exposing skin, it inherently contributes to a culture or atmosphere anathematic to women. So I provided an example of something that does the inverse. And I think it could be agreed upon that it's not an effective way to 'solve' sexualization or objectification of women in video-games or mass-media in general.

My point was though that that's even worse sexism, just for another reason.

Anyway, clothing is an entirely cultural thing, so whatever people see in it is something culturally created... but yes, because of society, it is hard to come up with female character designs that aren't sexualized or objectified in negative ways.

It's rather explicit in an assertion that if women are depicted wearing short skirts or exposing skin, it inherently contributes to a culture or atmosphere anathematic to women.

That's a fair point, but anime characters have no agency; they look like what the designer wants them to. And they are designed as they are to attract the fans to that game, or anime, or what have you. I would not apply the same rules to real life that I would anime. So it's not that short skirts are inherently negative to women; I would not agree with that, of course not. Socially short skirts did a lot of good -- forcing women to wear ankle to floor length clothing while men could wear less, as was true for... well, thousands of years really, in the West... is blatantly sexist. Anyway though, for this, it's all about the images presented in an anime character. Why were they designed the way they were, and for what reason? If the answer is "to attract male fans with fetishes they like", then that's sexualization, no matter how "normal" that outfit may seem taken in a vacuum.

The people posting pictures of burkas and things I think are slightly missing the point of what dude was trying to say...

It's not that he believes short skirts which are a sign of objectification in video games. It's that he believes that short skirts and exposed skin are seen as the "default" style. Instead of the variation you would expect from real life - and to a certain extent, men in games.

That's a good point, I definitely think that part of the problem is the general anime assumption that girls almost all wear skirts. That absolutely doesn't reflect reality... it's a more sexualized version of it. And that's understandable, when the goal is to create products that will sell to a male (Japanese) audience, but it doesn't make it okay objectively...

 

[SkyOdin]

Sure. I'll preface this by saying that I subscribe to Judith Butler's theories about gender being performative, by which I mean that we are largely taught from birth how our gender is supposed to act. If you're not big on formal feminist/gender theory, feel free to disregard. An example of this would be boys' toys vs girls' toys -- there's no reason that boys' toys should have a monopoly on creating and building and action, but they do, and that's because of the idea that girls are to perform as caretakers and organizers rather than creators.

When I say Japan has a gender gap problem, I'm not really talking about making things that appeal to women. I think it's great that there is a market for women, especially when you see the things the US tries to pass off as "for women" (if I see ONE more shitty NBC "women's sitcom" that features an affluent white couple and their baby, I swear to God...). But Japan also has a deep-seated "performance" for its genders -- not dramatically more destructive than Western cultures, but there is a higher fetishization of things like rape and coercion, and a general expectation that women are subservient and coquettish. Factor in the power differential between men and women in Japanese society (less than 30% of leadership positions are filled by women), and it becomes relevant to note the pop culture attitudes that demoralize and dehumanize women: in this case, fetishization of women and girls in Japanese games.

Thanks for the detailed response. However, considering that these issues are much older and more deeply rooted than anime and mange are, and anime and videogames are very much a small niche element of Japanese society, is it really justified to blame Japanese pop culture for these problems? Only a small number of Japanese people actually watch anime, and anime as a whole is, these days, primarily targeted at a specific group of young men who have been on the whole crushed by the country's terrible economic prospects for young people. A lot of modern anime makes more sense once you realize that the people who actually fund anime by buying the DVDs and merchandise are a small, dedicated population of people who generally have no prospects at achieving a healthy career or building the traditionally acceptable Japanese family. Anime is targeted at social outcasts who are not really tied into Japanese mainstream culture.

Obviously, this demographic issue causes a lot of problems within Japanese anime and videogames. However, we can also consider the fact that these problems are a completely separate issue from mainstream or traditional Japanese culture. Japan has problems, but not all of these problems are directly linked into every aspect of their culture and cultural output. This is really true for any country.

 

[A Black Falcon]

Thanks for the detailed response. However, considering that these issues are much older and more deeply rooted than anime and mange are, and anime and videogames are very much a small niche element of Japanese society, is it really justified to blame Japanese pop culture for these problems? Only a small number of Japanese people actually watch anime, and anime as a whole is, these days, primarily targeted at a specific group of young men who have been on the whole crushed by the country's terrible economic prospects for young people. A lot of modern anime makes more sense once you realize that the people who actually fund anime by buying the DVDs and merchandise are a small, dedicated population of people who generally have no prospects at achieving a healthy career or building the traditionally acceptable Japanese family. Anime is targeted at social outcasts who are not really tied into Japanese mainstream culture.

Obviously, this demographic issue causes a lot of problems within Japanese anime and videogames. However, we can also consider the fact that these problems are a completely separate issue from mainstream or traditional Japanese culture. Japan has problems, but not all of these problems are directly linked into every aspect of their culture and cultural output. This is really true for any country.

A lot of anime may be aimed at an "outcast" part of society, but I'd say that the gender roles shown in anime often are reflections of Japanese society, much like how American television and movies are a reflection of our society. You are right that you should not assume that Japan is like anime, it isn't, but the sexist gender roles you see in anime? Yeah, that does reflect Japan.

(Oh, and the other first world nation that rivals Japan in how sexist its society is is South Korea.)

 

[Fivefold]

Why should anime-style games have completely
unsexualised main characters? Because "cartoons"
are supposed to be squeaky clean and family friendly?

Now, I know there are plenty of Japanese games with
character designs done in really bad taste (especially the
loli shit), but that is no reason to go to the other extreme,
to make every female character dressed like a nun, just to be PC.

a little girl . . .
spring wind blows
white pantsu

 

[Sophia]

Are the three girls on the bottom left identical triplets, or just poorly designed?

Poorly designed. The artist on Corpse Party suffers from a massive case of Only Six Faces.

 

[GorillaJu]

The definition of "sexualized" on Gaf wouldn't be out of place in a 19th century dictionary.

 

[MGrant]

The definition of "sexualized" on Gaf wouldn't be out of place in a 19th century dictionary.

I don't mean to single you out of the several posters expressing a similar sentiment, but could you express your view in a more in-depth fashion? We aren't puritans. We aren't white knights. We just want to increase the access of more people to video games, and weed out attitudes that could make the hobby hurtful or alienating to the wide audience that would potentially love playing games with us.

 

[Sophia]

The definition of "sexualized" on Gaf wouldn't be out of place in a 19th century dictionary.

The discussion about Rise's skirt a page or two back was fantastically silly. Lots of girls hike up their skirt like that when they're forced to wear a skirt as part of the uniform.

 

[Valkyria]

I don't mean to single you out of the several posters expressing a similar sentiment, but could you express your view in a more in-depth fashion? We aren't puritans. We aren't white knights. We just want to increase the access of more people to video games, and weed out attitudes that could make the hobby hurtful or alienating to the wide audience that would potentially love playing games with us.

Objectification happens when you are acted upon. Wearing short skirts means nothing or proves nothing, on gaming or in real life.

 

[Femmeworth]

The definition of "sexualized" on Gaf wouldn't be out of place in a 19th century dictionary.

Uh, I think the modern definition hasn't changed much at all since then.

sex·u·al·izedsex·u·al·iz·ing

Definition of SEXUALIZE
: to make sexual : endow with a sexual character or cast

First Known Use of SEXUALIZE
1839

 

[McNum]

I was going to say Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance did it pretty well, most characters, male or female, more or less dress appropriately for their role in combat. But then I remembered Ilyana who wears a miniskirt into battle as a Mage. She trades up to a slitted dress when she promotes to Sage, so there's an improvement, but... Also Largo in the interest of equal opportunity undress is a hulk of a man running around with no shirt on. For no particular reason other than he's the Beserker class.

But, what about The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword? I can't think of any inappropriately dressed or over-sexualized females in that game. But there is the Ghirahim issue, though. Slim build, wears tights with diamond cutouts, and his behavior towards Link is... interesting. Still, I can't think of anyone other than Ghirahim and he's more murderous-creepy than sexualized-creepy. It's a thin line, though, could see it go either way. Zelda herself is not really sexualized in the game. She is cute, but that's about as far as that goes.

Does Skyward Sword pass the test (if only barely due to Ghirahim...) or am I missing something?

 

[QisTopTier]

Why is it always female characters that get brought up in this subject mostly?

It's a bit more common overall, but male characters in general are all almost as guilty.

 

[Haly]

Why is it always female characters that get brought up in this subject mostly?

Because the majority of gamers are straight males.

You'll be please to know, however, that yours truly has cited many examples of male sexualization, it's just that no one is interested.

 

[QisTopTier]

Because the majority of gamers are straight males.

You'll be please to know, however, that yours truly has cited many examples of male sexualization, it's just that no one is interested.

Is it brought up more because in the back of guys minds it triggers things so it's easier to identify and speak about, where the male characters tend to be ignored by males with the whole "not interested thing" or "He's just a bad ass what's wrong with that" type thing?

 

[Infinite]

Sexy or attractive characters aren't the same as sexualized/objectified characters used as fan service to attract the heterosexual male gaming demographic

 

[Roto13]

Why is it always female characters that get brought up in this subject mostly?

It's a bit more common overall, but male characters in general are all almost as guilty.

No.

Don't make me explain this to you. I'm sure you've had it explained before.

 

[QisTopTier]

No.

Don't make me explain this to you. I'm sure you've had it explained before.

Male bodies are different from female bodies, and the things about them get displayed a bit differently but with similar results. Come on now.

 

[Haly]

Is it brought up more because in the back of guys minds it triggers things so it's easier to identify and speak about, where the male characters tend to be ignored by males with the whole "not interested thing" or "He's just a bad ass what's wrong with that" type thing?

Yeah, that's my stance, more or less, articulated.

Take this for example:

Very guilty of flamboyant character design solely for the sake of sex appeal, but no one bats an eye at it. However, if you took a girl and opened her shirt to expose her cleavage, you can bet someone would raise hell.

 

[zkylon]

Why is it always female characters that get brought up in this subject mostly?

It's a bit more common overall, but male characters in general are all almost as guilty.

it's been told to death than female sexualization is brought up because while it's also true for males, in both genders it's meant to reinforce a male fantasy. as in, women have huge tits and guys have all the muscles. while I haven't met a girl in real life that would say no to a muscly dude, this is not meant for them, it's meant for straight dudes that like macho badass muscly types:

 

[Sophia]

Why is it always female characters that get brought up in this subject mostly?

It's a bit more common overall, but male characters in general are all almost as guilty.

As hypocritical as it is, I'm not complaining about male characters being slightly sexualized... >.>;

 

[Haly]

it's been told to death than female sexualization is brought up because while it's also true for males, in both genders it's meant to reinforce a male fantasy. as in, women have huge tits and guys have all the muscles. while I haven't met a girl in real life that would say no to a muscly dude, this is not meant for them, it's meant for straight dudes that like macho badass muscly types:

Not true for JRPGs, which is where the "animu style" is most prevalent. The males are often designed to appeal to males and females.

 

[Kagami]

it's been told to death than female sexualization is brought up because while it's also true for males, in both genders it's meant to reinforce a male fantasy. as in, women have huge tits and guys have all the muscles. while I haven't met a girl in real life that would say no to a muscly dude, this is not meant for them, it's meant for straight dudes that like macho badass muscly types:

You're talking about the American market.
The Japanese gaming market is full of male characters designed to pander to women's tastes.
We could flood the the thread with examples if you'd like.

 

[pixlexic]

As hypocritical as it is, I'm not complaining about male characters being slightly sexualized... >.>;

hhmm??? maybe not ?

 

[QisTopTier]

Not true for JRPGs, which is where the "animu style" is most prevalent. The males are often designed to appeal to males and females.

Mhm... which leads Yaoi fan art and such.

Speaking of which I went to yaoi-con with some friends a few years ago for fun, I think there was about a 10%/90% male/female ratio. *understandable*

Was worth it for some of the bad ass art that was being sold there though.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Played the demo of Etrian Odyssey IV and just found the "Dancer" class to be absolutely disgusting

Jesus christ Japan, have some dignity.

You're blowing it out of proportion, game is fantastic and I absolutely adore that design, but to each their own.

 

[Terareflection]

You're talking about the American market.
The Japanese gaming market is full of male characters designed to pander to women's tastes.
We could flood the the thread with examples if you'd like.

Please do!

 

[Haly]

Mhm... which leads Yaoi fan art and such.

Precisely.

 

[Sophia]

hhmm??? maybe not ?

That's not sexualized. That's silly.

 

[Femmeworth]

Why is it always female characters that get brought up in this subject mostly?

It's a bit more common overall, but male characters in general are all almost as guilty.

In the West? No. In the East? Maybe.

Mhm... which leads Yaoi fan art and such.

Fan art and reactions are one metric, but I wouldn't rely on it solely.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Please do!

Every fucking Inazuma Eleven character was designed for women, there's a hugee fanbase just because of their designs(and even guys... in some way)

 

[Risette]

In the West? No. In the East? Maybe.

lol "maybe"

Come on.

 

[Femmeworth]

lol "maybe"

Come on.

Without specified metrics (edit: and parameters), I can't just outright agree. If I said the two were incomparable, you would have reason to laugh.

 

[Haly]

lol "maybe"

Come on.

There was a lot of manservice in Sleeping Dogs, I remember that.

 

[PK Gaming]

Why is it always female characters that get brought up in this subject mostly?

It's a bit more common overall, but male characters in general are all almost as guilty.

yeah i don't see how this happens...ever

male characters are general designed to look "cool", "badass" or whatever

i don't think most game devs go out of their way to make their male protagonists fanservicey... it doesn't happen as often as you think it happens

i'm glad this thread didn't indulge in a false equivalences

 

[Terareflection]

Every fucking Inazuma Eleven character was designed for women, there's a hugee fanbase just because of their designs(and even guys... in some way)

I prefer the designs Kuroko's Basketball to those, which have a similarly huge female following.

I don't really think the Advanced Wars design are that bad, I mean, the women are wearing pants; that's a incredible achievement from Japan.

 

[Doctor Decimate]