The final nail in my coffin is that I obviously point out that exercise is pointless or detrimental when you have a compromised ability to refuel your muscles with glycogen and are already losing as much weight as you can? Complete nonsense!
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"Anti-obesity: The new homophobia?"
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Wafflecakes
Member
Well to be fair there are many different types of exercise and intensities.....there are plenty that are perfectly acceptable and helpful on Ketosis.
They're not going to help you lose a single pound, though.
Right, but it doesn't scale linearly. Those bushmen were going seven miles per day, I doubt the average American does one, but they were burning the same number of calories in that day. If you walk six more miles than you normally do that doesn't mean you add the energy you expended during that walk to your normal burn rate.
Michael Phelps exercises so much of the day that his body can't possibly make up for the amount he expended with reduced activity during the part of the day he is resting, that's why he eats like that. If you exercise a fraction of the amount he does you're not going to be burning that fraction of calories on top of your daily net. I think you're on the right track with energy deficits (though I am no doctor) but it's really got to be a deficit at your normal sedentary activity level, not what you theoretically burn when you start exercising regularly.
Wafflecakes
Member
Eh. I wouldn't go that far.
Its probably not as much as people think though. Though there is the fact that exercise in just important for general health.
Eat less exercise more. It's really simple. I cut 50lbs 3 years ago by cutting out garbage in my diet and working out. I now do a triathlon a month and still drink like a fish at 36 because I eat lean and light and workout at least an hour a day. I want to drink wine, I eat a salad and chicken for dinner. I want mashed potatoes at night, I run 5k and swim 2k instead of eating lunch.
Less butter more running. try and run 5k everyday and tell me if you can't lose weight. 1 hour per day to sweat, cry, and give it all you have and you will be amazed at how you feel and what you can eat.
Less butter more running. try and run 5k everyday and tell me if you can't lose weight. 1 hour per day to sweat, cry, and give it all you have and you will be amazed at how you feel and what you can eat.
I'd highly recommend you read the book Eat Stop Eat if you can. The author, Brad Pilon, is one of a handful of guys I'd take as experts in the field of nutrition. This is very import when digesting information on the internet, or really just any information about anything: what are the person's credentials? What makes them an expert?
Here's an illuminating excerpt from the book:
There are better or worse ways to lose weight (or more importantly, fat) but whatever path you take will follow these hard and fast rules. Every other piece of purported weight loss dogma isn't set in stone, and are likely tailored to fit a certain crowd or audience as a potentially helpful tool. An athlete won't eat what a sedentary person eats. Some people lose fat on a high-fat intake, others go low-fat. Some people eat six meals a day others eat one or two. Oh, and this just covers nutrition and weight loss. Nutrition and health is a whole 'nother bag (as evidenced when you discover no two individuals hold the same definition of what good health constitutes).Brad Pilon said:
But to keep shit simple, prolonged calorie restriction causes weight loss. Everything else is to encourage an individual to actually adhere to prolonged calorie restriction. Period.
Maybe we have a different conception of exercise. I mean cardio or strength, not walking or climbing stairs. Strength is a big no no generally even when you're doing calories in, calories out and doubly so for ketosis. Cardio is not relevant for losing weight. It'll help prevent gaining weight, but it's pretty useless when you're in ketosis. I can't stress this enough because of posts like this:
The attitude that if you're fat it's overwhelmingly because you're lazy. Which just isn't true and contributes to the hateful attitudes.
Don't forget the bad diet advice and government subsidies on corn.
Really? Just take a look at this guy's website: http://www.eatstopeat.com/
I wouldn't trust him.
Hopefully no one else is confused and I can get out of the thread.
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
So what about all of the people who do heavy compound lifts (strength training) and still make strength gains while on a keto diet?
edit: clarifying "gains" to "strength gains" and not "fat/weight gains"
So are disabled people, old people, children, unemployed people and poor people.
You feel justified in hating them, too?
You're an idiot. Eat less and exercise more. There is no secret to it. Have trouble losing weight? Eat less and exercise more. If you are fat it's because you eat too much. Could you have metabolic issues that make weight loss hard, sure, but at the end of th day you need to burn more calories than you consume.
And cardio helps people lose weight. I have to eat 4k in calories just to maintain because I do at least an hour a day of intense exercise.
FallingEdge
Member
LOL. You are hopeless.
Being fat is usually a condition that can be self-remedied.
In any case, attitude is important. Don't tell fat people they ought to be thin. Tell fat people they CAN be thin.
Sorry, not taking the time out to explain everything for the fourth or fifth time or whatever so another poster can try as hard as they can to miss the point. Read the last page. I don't think you understand how fat storage actually works. If you don't even understand what's being talked about don't call someone an idiot.
I've always maintained in this thread that it's either harmful or negligible in regards to weight loss while on a ketogenic diet. There is no inconsistency here. Obviously required reading for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
The impression given from that website is that he's the Saul Goodman of nutrition. It's a subjective impression.
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
Can you link to a medical study that shows keto by itself is equally as effective or more effective than keto + exercise? Where is your non-anecdotal proof, exactly?
I've done a low carb diet, done the piss strips, been in ketos and have gained strength and reduced my 5k time. All of that exercise has resulted in fat loss and muscle gain.
What do you weigh, how tall are you, what is your waist and chest measurements and what is your exercise program?
Beastmode, I'm sorry you rushed to judge Brad Pilon's nutrition advice based on the aesthetics of his webpage. I'm sure the irony of doing this in an obesity thread wasn't lost on you.
However, should you wish to refute anything in his book, feel free to. It's succinct and to the point. But in the meantime bitching about ad hominem attacks in your direction while simultaneously calling Brad the Saul Goodman of nutrition is mind-boggling.
However, should you wish to refute anything in his book, feel free to. It's succinct and to the point. But in the meantime bitching about ad hominem attacks in your direction while simultaneously calling Brad the Saul Goodman of nutrition is mind-boggling.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
This sounds like hell to me. No thanks.
I'll take my method which lets me eat delicious foods all of the time and doesn't require such an insane amount of exercise for exercise's sake.
Gotta love how you demonize butter. What the hell is wrong with butter? Another one of those "fat makes you fat" people?
The funny thing about exercise is it usually gets fun as you get into the habit of doing it.
Etrian Oddity
Member
Fucking hell, I guess 10 pages is past the statute of limitations for a response, but here was my original retort to "healthy eating is expensive":
A dozen eggs: $1.60
Head of broccoli: $1.98
A dozen boneless chicken thighs: $4.80
Bag of rice: $7
Total: $15.38
That's the price of two super-sized meals, on average. It was an exaggeration that you can feed yourself for a week on one meal; but eating healthy is FAR more affordable than people believe. In fact, it's far cheaper to buy your own groceries and eat healthy.
A dozen eggs: $1.60
Head of broccoli: $1.98
A dozen boneless chicken thighs: $4.80
Bag of rice: $7
Total: $15.38
That's the price of two super-sized meals, on average. It was an exaggeration that you can feed yourself for a week on one meal; but eating healthy is FAR more affordable than people believe. In fact, it's far cheaper to buy your own groceries and eat healthy.
Count Dookkake
Member
I've learned firsthand that the hardest thing about stopping being stupid is first having to admit that you have been stupid. This applies to a number of scenarios, not just obesity.
I love butter and eat it often. 1 hour of exersice per day is hardly insane and the more you do it the easier it gets. Of course once it gets easy you have to make it hard again.
My point is that you eat less calories than you need to maintain and you will lose weight. If you can't eat less, exercise more. I burned almost 1000 calories today in an hour and I had an awesome dinner of turkey sausage, onion gravey, green beans, and mashed potatoes with 3 beers. I will lose weight today because of the fact that I exercised and only ate that and 3 eggs earlier today.
The FUCK? How much is skin-on bone-in quarters/thighs? Fryers?
goldenpp72
Member
If I wanted to eat chicken daily here for 2 people, it would cost me about 30 a week or so, or 15 for one person. Not horrible but it's a bit pricey for boneless/skinless here (Wisconsin)
As for the topic, not even a close comparison, being fat is usually a process that is self inflicted, it doesn't mean you should be bullied for it, if you don't mind the appearance or health ramifications for it, no problem. Gays are born as they are with no real choice in the matter (I assume) so it's not the same or a fair comparison.
As for the topic, not even a close comparison, being fat is usually a process that is self inflicted, it doesn't mean you should be bullied for it, if you don't mind the appearance or health ramifications for it, no problem. Gays are born as they are with no real choice in the matter (I assume) so it's not the same or a fair comparison.
I don't know of any specific studies on this question. It's a matter of opinion for now - however just about everyone on the other side of the debate is hurling their shit around and hooting and hollering like a bunch of deranged monkeys. If you can find a study that supports exercise increasing weight loss during ketosis then I'm cool with that. It still doesn't change the main point - that lack of exercise isn't the main factor in weight gain and abstaining from carbs is the best way to lose weight.
Don't have measurements but I'm 6ft, weigh over 200 pounds, and lose about 2-3 pounds per week while staying home most days. Examples of what I mostly eat are: bacon & eggs, bun-less burgers, greek salads.
A couple years ago I tried eating less and moving more and I barely lost anything. Probably would've worked better if I went to the Gym but I wasn't keen on anyone knowing that I was bothered by being fat after a number of people throughout my life made it known to me that it's one of the key aspects of my being that demonstrates my worthlessness and justifies the ridicule. The real cause and cure for my weight had nothing to do with me as a person, it's just eating different food.
His site does look to me like he's trying to sell me homeopathy, a chicken roaster, gold, or a Bowflex. That's because people who sell nonsense are often not all that great at it... and it's just an opinion. I don't care if you think that his website is great or whatever. I don't have the time or interest to read his book mostly because of that quote you posted: it's wrong. Ketosis works. I don't know what there is to say.
The attacks on me are far different: they could easily ignore me or actually read what I post (you would assume they would if they're replying) and try to further their argument. Instead, they seemingly have no clue what my positions are (or are purposefully distorting them) and resort to name calling while continuing to miss the point.
Hope that didn't sound spiteful towards you or this Brad dude.
Horseticuffs
Full werewolf off the buckle
Just stepped off the scale and see that I'm 77 pounds lighter than I was in January. Now, I'm still a lardass at 273 pounds, but I used to be a 350 pound lard ass who didn't know the big secret.
The big secret, as has been stated in this very thread, is caloric restriction. I don't even want to think how many calories I've been eating each day my whole life. 3,000? 4,000? I used to eat two packets of Ramen for dinner every night for YEARS.
In mid-March I started jogging and trying to eat healthy. In July I started using the Myfitnesspal app to count calories and have been keeping under 1,500 calories a day with a religious fervor. I also gave up drinking anything but water and black coffee.
Honestly, I don't jog and lift weights as often as I should. I jog maybe 2 or 3 times a week and life weights about that often. The weight loss is thanks to sustaining a calorie deficit, even of it isn't always easy.
For instance, I was an idiot today and wound up with 138 calories I could eat left in the day at like 1:30pm. So I had an orange for lunch, an egg for dinner and, bam, ended my day with 18 calories to spare.
I made just about every fucked up dietary mistake you could make until earlier this year, and I'm just posting all this because it was all, for ME at least, due to the moral failure of a weak will.
Maybe I'm lucky, I've changed my diet and lifestyle and the weight is melting off. I've heard horror stories of people working their asses off to no effect. Every day I'm terrified I'll plateau and have to go through Hell trying to find the ONE secret thing that will kickstart my body into weightloss again.
Being gay is obviously something you are born with. I do think that there may be some genetic predispositions towards obesity for some folks, but I'm willing to bet for most folks that obesity is a learned lifestyle.
My main point with this post was that every single person I've come across who has seen the change, every single one, has been nothing but supportive and encouraging.
I work at a very large healthcare facility and a day doesn't pass where someone I don't know or may just see in the halls doesn't stop me and tell me what a great job I'm doing.
Maybe I'm lucky, but I haven't seen any real bigotry against me as an adult for being fat. And, as I said, when people see I'm making a positive change they've been just great.
Eating healthfully is cheap and easy, but I'm speaking as someone who isn't in a food desert. Eggs, dry beans and lentils, and fruits and veggies are all relatively cheap. But again, not everyone has access to decent options.
Speaking as a fat guy (though hopefully not for too much longer), no amount of chiding or shit-talk will help someone change. It has to be a choice they make. For me, it was just time for a new chapter in my life. But everyone will have their own moment of clarity.
If you want to help a fat person, for fuck's sake don't comment on their weight. Trust me, they know. Like someone said, invite them to join you in healthy activities, support positive choices they are making.
There are tons of ways you can help if you want to, but being a dick is never going to be one of them. Sorry if this has been rambling, but weightloss is something I've learned to be very passionate and excited about.
The big secret, as has been stated in this very thread, is caloric restriction. I don't even want to think how many calories I've been eating each day my whole life. 3,000? 4,000? I used to eat two packets of Ramen for dinner every night for YEARS.
In mid-March I started jogging and trying to eat healthy. In July I started using the Myfitnesspal app to count calories and have been keeping under 1,500 calories a day with a religious fervor. I also gave up drinking anything but water and black coffee.
Honestly, I don't jog and lift weights as often as I should. I jog maybe 2 or 3 times a week and life weights about that often. The weight loss is thanks to sustaining a calorie deficit, even of it isn't always easy.
For instance, I was an idiot today and wound up with 138 calories I could eat left in the day at like 1:30pm. So I had an orange for lunch, an egg for dinner and, bam, ended my day with 18 calories to spare.
I made just about every fucked up dietary mistake you could make until earlier this year, and I'm just posting all this because it was all, for ME at least, due to the moral failure of a weak will.
Maybe I'm lucky, I've changed my diet and lifestyle and the weight is melting off. I've heard horror stories of people working their asses off to no effect. Every day I'm terrified I'll plateau and have to go through Hell trying to find the ONE secret thing that will kickstart my body into weightloss again.
Being gay is obviously something you are born with. I do think that there may be some genetic predispositions towards obesity for some folks, but I'm willing to bet for most folks that obesity is a learned lifestyle.
My main point with this post was that every single person I've come across who has seen the change, every single one, has been nothing but supportive and encouraging.
I work at a very large healthcare facility and a day doesn't pass where someone I don't know or may just see in the halls doesn't stop me and tell me what a great job I'm doing.
Maybe I'm lucky, but I haven't seen any real bigotry against me as an adult for being fat. And, as I said, when people see I'm making a positive change they've been just great.
Eating healthfully is cheap and easy, but I'm speaking as someone who isn't in a food desert. Eggs, dry beans and lentils, and fruits and veggies are all relatively cheap. But again, not everyone has access to decent options.
Speaking as a fat guy (though hopefully not for too much longer), no amount of chiding or shit-talk will help someone change. It has to be a choice they make. For me, it was just time for a new chapter in my life. But everyone will have their own moment of clarity.
If you want to help a fat person, for fuck's sake don't comment on their weight. Trust me, they know. Like someone said, invite them to join you in healthy activities, support positive choices they are making.
There are tons of ways you can help if you want to, but being a dick is never going to be one of them. Sorry if this has been rambling, but weightloss is something I've learned to be very passionate and excited about.
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
Really, "deranged monkeys"? Again with the ad hominem? Jeez dude, you're not helping yourself at all here.
Can you post studies that indicate either of these two bolded things? You're making awfully broad, sweeping claims here.
I'll buy that abstaining from carbs is an effective way of losing weight. But it's one of many, and not the most (read: only) effective way.
And what defines "efficiency" in this case anyway? I bet there are plenty of people who would find it much more "efficient" to spend 2 hours at the gym each week and lose 1-2 lbs per week then have to completely change their dietary habits and constantly think about what they eat, focusing on squashing cravings, not eating their favorite meals (which might be carb-heavy), etc in order to lose 3-4 lbs per week. Just something to think about.
I'll also buy that diet overall is more important than exercise for fat loss. But it's hogwash to suggest that a lack of exercise isn't contributing to our obesity problem (and I'm not necessarily suggesting that's what you're saying).
Isn't that exactly what you're doing with Brad Pilon? You haven't read any of his work and dont really understand his position at all, and then called him a "Saul Goodman" of nutrition.
Also, I'm not sure how the 2 points MJ brought up don't apply to ketosis. Are you really replacing every calorie of carbs that you aren't eating with an equivalent # of calories in fat/protein? If not, then you're going through caloric restriction, and point #1 stands. You're just restricting your calories via low carb. Point #1 has nothing to do with which methods of caloric restriction might be more effective than others.
Man...I pay that for organic. Cheap shit is like $1.99 before sales, last year it was down to $0.79 half the time but those prices are gone forever.
Still, I buy wild salmon all the time anyway and don't even care about the price. $9.99/lb? Fuck it. $7.99? Holy shit what a deal!
spiderman123
Member
You know what, I love fast food and I ain't gonna change.
You know what, I love fast food and I ain't gonna change.
that apple needs to be coated in caramel
spiderman123
Member
Please I 've evolved beyond those simple methods. It's been injected inside.
Sure; provided you didn't use sex as a release, you obviously have a high degree of discipline, and have every right to.
It strikes me as hypocritical for people to criticize fat people for eating and not wanting to exercise, when the no-fap challenge requires arguably less self control.
Go back a page and read the posts by people like Falling Edge, Rm88~, nerdy1. Either purposefully distorting what I say or not reading it and then trying to say I'm wrong and crazy. When I correct them on it, they ignore that too and continue posting about what a nutcase I am. I don't know what else to call that.
As for exercise, it does play a role in preventing obesity. It's not the main culprit:
As for the efficiency of low-carb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_research_related_to_low-carbohydrate_diets
One of the major points of a ketogenic diet is that you don't have to count calories because when you're not secreting insulin your body is already burning fat stores, meaning you're only going to be hungry for the energy needs left over. If you actually do count calories then it's no contest, just take a look at that Wiki page.
On Brad Pilon, I don't owe him or his supporters anything, I'm not calling him a nutcase. I disagree with the quote posted and found his website unappealing. I already admit to not caring. I don't understand why that should upset anyone.
And there is literally not a single person in this thread that says that isn't possible.
It is strange how politically correct it seems to be to rag on overweight people. I guess it comes from the idea that they do it to themselves, but with other forms of addiction and disease the general public seems to be much more forgiving.
And then some would like to push the guilt on fast food and soda. The majority of us are getting by just fine while fast food still exists. And then there is a whole economic level put on it as well. High carb foods tend to be really cheep, while healthy foods are more expensive, so if you have money and are fat you are an ass hole, if you are poor and fat it is because of financial difficulties.
In reality unless you are exclusively shopping at Whole Foods, a head of lettuce, a giant bag of baby carrots, and a can of green beens is not that much more expensive then noodles with meat sauce.
The anger toward large people is every bit as horrible as other forms of prejudice. And the way to fix the problem is to promote a healthy lifestyle, not ban every food product that can make you fat. I guess we will get to that social issue once we fix a couple of others.
And then some would like to push the guilt on fast food and soda. The majority of us are getting by just fine while fast food still exists. And then there is a whole economic level put on it as well. High carb foods tend to be really cheep, while healthy foods are more expensive, so if you have money and are fat you are an ass hole, if you are poor and fat it is because of financial difficulties.
In reality unless you are exclusively shopping at Whole Foods, a head of lettuce, a giant bag of baby carrots, and a can of green beens is not that much more expensive then noodles with meat sauce.
The anger toward large people is every bit as horrible as other forms of prejudice. And the way to fix the problem is to promote a healthy lifestyle, not ban every food product that can make you fat. I guess we will get to that social issue once we fix a couple of others.
Competition has driven humanity for approximately a billion billion years. That's not going to change anytime soon.
Boneless skinless chicken breast regularly goes on sale for $2.99/lb at No Frills/Food Basics or $3.99/lb at Superstore/Zehrs/Loblaws. Just buy those in bulk and freeze them for later.
We've been promoting a healthy lifestyle for a long time and people keep getting fatter.
Getting the government to stop subsidizing corn is probably the only thing that will make a dent in anything because it will make processed sugary foods more expensive.
But it indeed has changed a lot in a very small timeframe. It's not the biggest, ugliest, meanest mofos that are kings anymore. Of course we still see the primitive traits present in many occasions, but we have advanced nonetheless.
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