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Anyone else not really stoked on Skyward Sword?
- Thread starter Oblivion
- Start date
Looks so bland, I just can't muster up any excitement for this series any more until they significantly shake things up.
Darksiders borrows a lot from Zelda, but at least it feels different in enough aspects to feel refreshing.
If they didn't have motion controls they would have had to have adopted HD to stay in the game.
Darksiders borrows a lot from Zelda, but at least it feels different in enough aspects to feel refreshing.
AceBandage said:
If they didn't have motion controls they would have had to have adopted HD to stay in the game.
AceBandage
Banned
And been thoroughly beaten out of said game...Paco said:
Anasui Kishibe
Banned
Mister Wilhelm said:
I'm playing it and you're totally right. I mean, it totally doesn't look generic at all with all the steroidfest comic book style demons invading NYC and demon lords and demon skeletons and demon dudes and demon elevators and angelic guys and such. I mean, it looks 150% like Spawn just to make an example but yeah lets pretend it doesn't exist
and the gameplay, woah, it gets real better than zelda when you have to push statues instead of boxes. Wait, there are statues to push in Zelda too. But it's better because you get to swing like Spiderman...wait, this was in TP as well. But it's better anyways because you get to wave an enormous blade at demons and there's a lot of blood and there are incredibly zomgcool QTE when you press B AND YOU RIP A DEMON'S HEART OUT, HOW COOL IS THAT
lostinblue
Banned
Paco said:
Oh, I thought you were talking about prince of persia.
I really don't get the bitching, zelda was never really stale (yes, gameplay has stayed the same in major installments, but it works) and with this one they've vowed to change the way dungeons work and stuff.
It's not looking like more of the same and hey, the last major one was in 2006.
I'm not in a "I can't wait" vibe because we've seen very little and the trailers weren't too focused on that, but it sure smells good in the kitchen.
lostinblue
Banned
Don't say that, say you want a Zelda taking place in the imprisioning war period.Gravijah said:
Which was what the original Zelda TP was about.
This thread looks like a disaster! When did it become cool to bash on Zelda? It's like the LAST series anyone should have issues with. The games are so humble and you never hear the developers talk shit on websites (Dyack, Pitchford, etc.) I smell Darksider fans at work here...
lostinblue
Banned
That's Majora Mask.Gravijah said:
"NAVI COME BACK!"
Zelda is the greatest gaming series of all time. Even if Skyward Sword was just a rehash of Ocarina it would still be worth it. However, we know that Skyward Sword introduces important innovations in terms of motion controls and dungeon overworld integratioin. It will likely be the GOTY and one of the most important games of this generation. Mark my words.
I laughed a bit, then realized you were serious.apana said:
"One of the most important games of this generation" assumed off of nothing particularly interesting or substantial shown thus far pointing towards it being important this gen aside of being a big seller and a big Nintendo title? Amusing.
Yuterald said:
Get your head out of you're arse, nobody's bashing Zelda. Some are bashing motion controls, others are saying that they're not overly hyped because they were expecting a bit more in terms of innovation, but are still going to buy the game. There's just critical people and butthurt fanboys.
lostinblue
Banned
What defines importance though?enzo_gt said:
I'm sure somewhere in the discussion of that we'd realize the most important paradigm shifters this gen were no less than Wii Sports and Wii Fit, and by then we'll be sick and tired of it and sorry for bringing it up.
Seriously. Zelda was a major paradigm shift and thus "important game" back in N64, and it also had major impact that they forego with Wind Waker visuals in 2003 as they were virgin waters (pun intended), but we're in a era when a single game being impactful through those means is well, hard, they're trying with Wii Motion Plus, sure, but we can already picture how it'll work if it's works as we expected, and thus it isn't a focus as big as it was with Zelda OoT where at one point it was actually a Zelda 1 remake in 3D, because it was enough, focus was 3D. With this one Wii Motion Plus is important (obligatory, even) but not the real selling point, the selling point is that they're working their asses off trying to pull the best game possible.
With OoT we hadn't the slighest idea how it worked:
"If the camera buttons are taken in the HUD does it mean I can't move the camera?" or "what's context sensitive?" or "what's this yellow cursor shit?"
Everything was so new, and thus felt so new, because we couldn't even fantom how it worked.
It's harder and harder to surprise (Beyond Good and Evil, Sphynx, Okami and Darkstarlkers to name a few in the same genre didn't surprise), but with that in mind my favorite Zeldas are Link's Awakening and Majora Mask, not because of scale or "this is so new" impact but a certain maturity to the formula and macro-focusing going on. It's all in the details, and I expect this one to be really defined in that sense, because it's where it's supposed to be heading.
With this Zelda I feel they're gonna do what they usually do, a good game that tries some interesting stuff, because the franchise is everything but stale and not afraid to innovate/invest lots of time into making previous game's faults advantages.
/thread (I know I'll return, but yeah, I said pretty much everything I can regarding this debate)
Importance is influence. I agree Zelda has had a huge influence in the past, but Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess don't appear to me any any kind of standout games with any sort of influence or anything. I don't think Twilight Princess had any kind of influence at all really. Wind Waker isn't important either, sure the art style is kind of unique and cool, but that does not make a game important in the context of an entire generation.lostinblue said:
Now it's only another big Zelda game. I feel people are screaming ZOMG INNOVATION at tiny things included in Skyward Sword. When I look at the game the last thing that comes to mind is "innovation."
lostinblue
Banned
In general terms it had less than previous Zelda's no doubt. But you have to agree to that much when you're making a new Zelda in the Hyrule realm.enzo_gt said:
Doesn't means it is a lesser game and I'd argue it did give lots of tiny steps in the right direction regarding pacing and dungeon design. I think the difficulty balance of the dungeons is perfect on that game. It wasn't a vain step.
Wind Waker was a turning point in games, IMO. Not because you couldn't figure out how it played out, but because of the staying power of the graphics.enzo_gt said:
No one liked the graphics at first but they're still regarded by lots as the best achieved cel shading ever to grace a game. And by 2003 no one wanted to do that to a "realistic" "non-kiddy" franchise because we were still pursuing realism. (today people beg for a new Zelda with that artstyle) Wind Waker broadcasted a very important message of art over realism to whom we're still feeling the results today. It effectively changed the paradigm and perception of cel shaded graphics, almost single-handedly.
That's it's staying power and call to fame And massive impact/contribution to the game scene as a whole.
They're trying to change the basis of how a Zelda works down to how a dungeon integrates with the overworld map. I doubt it'll be as impactful as the previous games because it's harder and harder to do that with gameplay and game structure again But like I said, there were hardly any "hardcore games" being really impactful (also: innovative) this gen, and if they were it was due to new forms of input (no more heroes springs to mind).enzo_gt said:
This is like those cinema discussions with guys saying all current movies lack impact/inovation/something. Well, duh, how can they surprise in the plot department and be really something you can call new when they can't help but be more than a re-imagining of a already existing/done plot (even if the writers never heard of it) [and let's not discuss how hollywood sucks and mostly gives budget to crap]
You can't always re-invent the wheel, infact some franchises can't even reinvent the wheel (sonic, comes to mind). But you can always keep moving forward and pushing the envelope.
This Zelda is the first main-timeline Zelda in a while that pushes the envelope the most ever since Wind Waker. It's the first since 1998 to really changes the input method (and is designed about that, I'm not talking about remaking the A button to a wag motion) and they're trying to re-think the way dungeons work, game structure while re-integrating some stuff that was foregone like Majora Mask town elements. If done right that's a big step for the franchise and perhaps motion enabled gaming in general (in fact one has to wonder if Zelda on Wii U won't be a step back due to the controller)
Fimbulvetr
Member
Amir0x said:
Never had trouble with the flute.
I'm not arguing the quality of Zelda games at all here, let me make that clear early on in this post. Again, tiny steps don't really count for making an important game if they do not resonate with any other games in the generation. Okay, Wind Waker's art style may have resonated in other games, but again it's nothing that wasn't done before. JSRF did it, and was a damn solid game to boot (I personally liked how they manipulated cel-shading more there, but that's me). The importance of the Zelda name carried it further, and I will accept that it had an influence in the sense that it brought attention to art styles as a whole, but I will not concede to this being a general shift or turning point in games as a whole. That is hyperbole. The impact wasn't massive per ce, it was a subtle stride. Art games have been around before, just the technology was not as up to snuff to express such. Wind Waker showed that you could have an AAA game that wasn't striving for realism, but to this date a lot of "art" games still fail to find mainstream success and the presence is mostly still subjugated to indie games, as AAA games, still today, primarily pursue realism.lostinblue said:
There were so many hardcore games that were innovative this gen. Halo 3, and probably the second most influential game this gen next to Wii Sports: Gears of War. The effects of those two games' successes were primarily felt with other so called hardcore games, but they shook genres beyond those that they were in. Halo 3 set a precedent that social gaming and community integration is essential to having successful games, and Gears of War implemented so many new mechanics and approaches to building a game, they're hard to count.
It's not that I doubt that Miyamoto and co. aren't trying to push boundaries or pursue some sort of innovation in terms of control inputs and in general game design, it's that I feel that at the end of the day, nothing ends up being affected. Really, there's nothing in Skyward Sword I see that wasn't already a "should've" or "could've" in a brainstorming session 5 years ago. Nothing is that far from the realm of possibility that I think other devs would have not considered implementation in their own games, and could have rejected such to fit their model for game design. And if you ask, why hasn't it been done before? Well the use of differing motion control segments in to augment regularly controlled gameplay have, just to not the same degree, not as close to 1:1 and not in the same genre of game (mostly in minigame compilations of the sort).
At the same time, whatever innovations Skyward Sword will, like you said, possibly not carry on any further in the future. While Zelda is trying to make adventure games more involved and immersive, Nintendo is already to move on to a more traditional user interface combined with a touch screen included (which I am incredibly upset over, as it negates all they tried to prove with the Wii's control interface), and Microsoft and Sony are trying to use motion controls entirely differently to attract new audiences: Sony with more realistic, bite sized games and integration into games that already take advantage of Sixaxis and traditional controls, and Microsoft which is pursuing no-controller kinds of experiences with Kinect.
Also, damn your edits.
MushroomSamba
Member
I'm still not convinced about the controls. This motion bs has ruined more Wii games for me than it's made more enjoyable. I'll have to wait for the reviews and user impressions before I dive in head first.
There is nothing wrong with this post. Zelda as a whole has been and will always be one of the most important series in videogame history. But OoT really was the last one to move the entire industry in a different direction, and I'm a MM lover here.enzo_gt said:
That said, Important =/= influential when you are talking about the core audience. For instance, SMG didn't reinvent the wheel but it's absolutely ridiculous to claim it was not an important game this generation. In that regard, I feel SS will receive the same treatment
In terms of the core audience, Nintendo is an anomaly, because the core audiences for each of their franchises will buy all of the games regardless of quality or improvements. Nintendo has the strongest brands in the industry. That much is fact. That's why influence is less important.Nintendo-4Life said:
But I agree, SMG isn't exactly influential, but I'll cut someone up if they don't mention it as one of the best games this gen. I have very, very small expectations for Skyward Sword because to me it's looking kinda meh, but I feel for the core audience it will be another good Zelda game that will satiate their tastes.
AceBandage
Banned
enzo_gt said:
Bull.
Fucking.
Shit.
lostinblue
Banned
Sure, but that's like saying Mario 64 didn't invent 3D. Sure, but the impact was massive.enzo_gt said:
I'd regard Jet Set Radio was inovative sure, but it's impact was quite narrow. Like, say, REZ, also from the same time. (I think you're referring to the xbox jet set radio, but I digress).
We'll have to disagree, but I think Wind Waker was the first step for some debate that's still going on today and will for a long time. Like you said most AAA still barges into realism like a fireman into a building on fire but do you picture them 20 years from now still doing that? I dunno but it's important to keep options open, and Wind Waker opened them when they were closing into a realism focus.
Same with motion controls they appeared when we were conformed with regular controllers. The more the rift between the people that like it and dislike the bigger the impact these days.
Huh!? O_Oenzo_gt said:
Gears of War I can understand being named; I didn't feel it was that original considering TPS's existed last gen in the form of Kill Switch and Rogue Soldier (and I think the art direction was turd) but it certainly certainly put Third Person Shooter's in the map But Halo 3?! Halo 1 understand, but Halo 3? (I'm clueless, really)
And I don't think any of them had as much impact as Brain Training, Wii Sports, Wii Fit or even (god damn me, I don't want to say this) Kinect. Paradigm shift selling=Impact
Well, some ideas have to stay in the oven for long. For example ever since OoT that Nintendo wanted to make Lost Woods as a real forest, with the N64 the limitation was obvious, it was down to polygons they did it (and used it for Majora Mask opening/ending) but that was it, it was big it was confusing and they had to guide you through it; also had fog (and n64 was strong on that one), the ghost that leads you through the desert storm was actually originally in lost woods due to it.enzo_gt said:
Then Majora Mask was on the same hardware so they used the same solution and with WW they didn't really have a forest. Then TP came along and they tried to do the OoT vision again:
It's still in there accessible through cheats but it was probably scrapped due to the same reasons as before Being aimless and screwing the game structure.
But perhaps some day, it's not like they ever give up (hopefully).Integrating the dungeons more into the overworld was something that TP actually started trying. You can see they already wanted to try it, but in the end couldn't achieve it because of how the structure was so deep entrained.
I'd love to see a post mortem of that. TP also must mention cities in the post mortem, seeing the last delay showed this:
A very, very, very I mean VERY beta city. They focused on dungeons and game structure for so long that the city was an afterthought and in the end sidequests linked to it were also on the dim side too, due to that. And now we have a game promising to have lots of content and a city like Majora Mask (info from E3) because TP was a step and whatever it did so-so has been worked to be a strenght of this one. Just like MM didn't focus on having more dungeons or being more epic than OoT what for?
In a lot of senses this game is like what you would expect of a TP sequel.
Or because like everything it's trial and error until someone get's it right.enzo_gt said:
I'm sure they aren't the only ones trying; in fact the more the merrier. But I am sure they are one of the most talented trying.
I can't disagree with that.enzo_gt said:
But as I was saying, in my mind, and due to what we're talking about, I think Skyward Sword has more leeway to make a lasting impact than say, the first Zelda they make for Wii U. So let's hope it really changes stuff because that will be the new Zelda blueprint if done right. (cities populated with actual people rather than bots with 2 lines of text should have entered the blueprint ever since MM though)
Microsoft for sure. Sony It's mostly that but they're also completely confused by everything but they'll be seeing how it plays out, as always, so they aren't exactly against the idea if there's demand they'll consider it (that's their problem actually, look at the feature creepping they punished the PS Vita with).enzo_gt said:
That's where Skyward Sword enters, if it's really good/there's more people trying to make games like that perhaps Sony will be convinced that's the future.
Sorry. Double checked this one is the attempt of not having the urge to edit itenzo_gt said:
WrenchNinja
Member
No I mean, like proportion wise. Windwaker had this sort of chibi kind of look to it. Skyward Sword, Twilight Princess, Ocarina of Time, they all strive for more realistic of a look? I'm just saying alternating between vastly different styles would be an easier way to show change than simply making Ocarina of Time all watercoloury. SS has a nice look, don't get me wrong, it just feels kind of sad we're going through this kind of Link again. I guess I'm not really explaining my thoughts about this properly.Gravijah said:
Also, four games? Really? We only got Windwaker's style once, the rest were pretty poor implementations of the look on handhelds.
lostinblue said:
I'm still shocked at how different Twilight Princess looked in screenshots compared to the final game. It's like they were developing two completely different games at the same time since that crowded city screenshot is from August 2005 I believe. Long after they shot down the 2004 version of the game. I remember a somewhat large site, it might've been Joystiq ran a story the day that the game released that all released media was in fact not Twilight Princess but just a bunch of bullshots made for marketing purposes. lol
AceBandage
Banned
[Nintex] said:
And this is why Nintendo pretty much never shows off games so far in advance.
They change things up too often in development.
Twilight Princess is a special case, games like Super Mario Galaxy and Phantom Hourglass certainly changed but weren't completely different games in the end. Also scenes from screenshots would usually end up in those games, while Nintendo released screenshots of TP in 2006 that didn't even make it into the game. In fact the screenshot on the back of the box shows a magic meter that is not in the game.AceBandage said:
lostinblue
Banned
Yeah.Crewnh said:
Wind Walker was a match in heaven in the sense that it was using good, feature complete hardware for the time and instead of using it for realism, they invested that money and used it to render something that wasn't less ambitious despite not being realistic.
Today cel shading is often used in situations where "we don't feel like pushing it but we don't want to look ridiculous so let's stylize it a little", wind waker was nothing of the sort, it was absolutely cutting edge, new engine, new system, new horizons.
And by engine I mean tech, in Wind Waker if you stand by a character he'll look you right in the eye. Now this seems "normal" but how about, if you go into it with gameshark and mess Link measurements depending on him getting taller or shorter than the character he's standing by that will mean they'll now look down or look up accordingly?
The engine was very feature complete for it's time, very ambitious. And ambitious and cel shading/cartoony had never gone hand in hand in 3D before.
DS Zelda's despite being heirs to the style can't handle a candle to it due to that objective difference. Where one wanted to push the envelope the other is conformed for fitting in that envelope. Not to say they aren't good games (and arguably pushed the envelope in other senses like method of input) but they aren't really ambitious regarding how they look. They can't afford to.
jump_button
Banned
I really want to see vids of the town they say it like zelda MM if it is they Im so hype for it
AceBandage said:
Nintendo realized that they couldn't start talking about a game when they aren't sure themselves what they are doing/not doing. And that they couldn't hype a game many years before the game actually releases.
Nintendo is keeping everything close to them until they are REALLY ready to show something.
I think it started in 2009, they show a game, it's released somewhere in the following 364 days or close to that.
I am moderately hyped but because of the promise of a great game, not because of anything that has been said or shown.
I have asked in several threads what's all the hype about and the answer has been "Aonuma said this, Miyamoto said that and that's the reason" I don't buy words and thus my hype has been pretty contained but there is NO chance for nintendo to fuck up on this game and since I have learned to not overhype myself and like games for what they offer, I know I will love it.
but yeah, I kind of understand those how don't know where the hype is coming from...
I have asked in several threads what's all the hype about and the answer has been "Aonuma said this, Miyamoto said that and that's the reason" I don't buy words and thus my hype has been pretty contained but there is NO chance for nintendo to fuck up on this game and since I have learned to not overhype myself and like games for what they offer, I know I will love it.
but yeah, I kind of understand those how don't know where the hype is coming from...
Nope. Truth. You see it all the time in Mario/Pokemon threads. Also, the non-hardcore core audience for Mario, the uninformed masses, the people who don't check forums, the people who made the Wii a success, the people who Nintendo makes games for now, ARE the core audience. And they buy Mario games blindly, because frankly they enjoy all of them equally. And there's nothing wrong with that.AceBandage said:
Mario 64 not inventing 3D is a baaaaaaaaaaad comparison. The 3D in Mario 64 was like nothing before and it changed gaming forever, because of the precedent it set it with ITS 3D, not detail-less illusions of 3D in the past, in conjunction with the memorable 3D overworld. Wind Waker was more impactful than JSRF for the same reason, and the Zelda name carried it much further because it was controversial for an already massive franchise switching things up radically from expectations, not JSRF which was cast aside as a decent art game on a dying console. By the way I mean JGR/JSR I'm just used to typing JSRF, sorry. If we're talking the actual innovator, it's JSR because it brought a completely new aesthetic to video games, an aesthetic Wind Waker actually used many years later.lostinblue said:
No other game did social interaction as well as Bungie. It began with Halo 2 allowing players to completely customize the multiplayer environment. Look around today, nearly every FPS, as well as racing games, and games of many other genres are trying to implement Bungie/Bungie.net levels of community integration and involvement. Few come close, but they all try because Halo 3 raised the bar extensively. Replays, replay saving, replay converting to video, community playlists, community feedback driving the development of playlists and changes, stats and stats integration like no game has done before. Call of Duty and EA are only getting close to catching up now.lostinblue said:
Gears of War is important because it basically showed off the Unreal Engine and sold it to the masses, the "Look here!" button, the emphasis on tactical cover-based combat, how to build proper levels that work in both single player, but are further optimized by co-op, interactive reloads, the "do it all" A button, re-popularizing D-pad weapon switches, the list goes on and on. The wealth of games taking influence from Gears today is a testament to the influence it's had beyond the most important one: the popularization of Unreal Engine in games.
Is this integrating dungeons into the overworld really that big of a deal for people? For some reason I keep doubting that Zelda is the first game to do this, but I can't remember which game did it before. These are indeed strides forward though, Zelda is one of the few franchises Ninty cares most about when it comes to actively increasing the amount of content from game to game, as a prime development goal, should it like you say fall within the game's structure and vision.lostinblue said:
Yeah, Sony is completely unsure about what the fuck they want to do. They brought out a peripheral just to compete, they have no vision, no killer app, no actual goal with their peripheral. Nintendo had one, but they fucked up early on and hindered themselves with 1:1. Skyward Sword I feel is their chance at redemption to what the Wii was envisioned as many years ago. I have no idea what to expect from Wii U Zelda, but I feel it will be something a bit more traditional for an action adventure, because the tablet doesn't allow them to do much they haven't already on the DS Zeldas.lostinblue said:
lostinblue
Banned
Yeah, but there's a reason for that.[Nintex] said:
That Zelda was originally Ocarina of Time 2.
Source: http://www.thehylia.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1173582355&archive=&start_from=&ucat=19&
So, basically it was a whole different game, Link's character model was also different (have you ever noticed how they do that stuff really well? I mean we saw the Spaceworld 2000 demo and we knew instantly it was OoT link, we saw the Wii U demo and we knew it was Twilight Princess link).
Anway, that explains why the facial features changed so much during development, because at some point they decided it was a new Link,
This was OoT link:
Quite different than the final model (and if you ask me, I'm a guy, but good old hero of time rendition is the better looking)
I'm derailing though, back to the point:
This was the motherfunking Imprisioning War, which was cut because it ceased to have context. The game didn't negate it's existence/there's still space for a game in that ends with ganon being captured.
I want that game, hard.
They didn't do it (imprisioning war!) because OoT had been released a long time ago and wasn't widely available anymore (PAL Wind Waker "collectors edition" not being limited at all not withstanding) so people could have trouble jumping in. The next few years though, with the re-release of OoT on 3DS they can (and should) end this triology stuff around Hero of Time. (sorry for being passionate, lol)
I hope that's where they go with Wii U. I'm sure the original rendition (sunset battles!) were also hard on GC's hardware so this is literally two birds with one stone. It's certainly the best proposition to go with HD Zelda being ambitious regarding scope and doing stuff that would be hard to do on GC/Wii.
Twilight Princess was a special case.AceBandage said:
CriterionDog
Member
I honestly pumped for Skyward Sword. The art style alone gives me excitement. : ) I'm also excited for the upgradable weapons the story.