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Apple has counter-sued Epic for commision theft

llien

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Yeah that's "the state" vs Apple. This is Epic vs Apple.

No, that's the same "the state" vs Apple.
Epic doesn't call out anything specific between the two, but arguing "this piece of shit is a fucking monopoly let loose, please investigate".

It's not like there's only one type of smartphone out there.
Because there haven't been other OSes back in 90s, when Microsoft was pwned hard., right?
See how limited and out of touch with reality this argument is?
 
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El Pistolero

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DonJuanSchlong

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No, that's the same "the state" vs Apple.
Epic doesn't call out anything specific between the two, but arguing "this piece of shit is a fucking monopoly let loose, please investigate".


Because there haven't been other OSes back in 90s, when Microsoft was pwned hard., right?
See how limited and out of touch with reality this argument is?
llien llien I won't agree with you when it comes to AMD gpu's, but I wholeheartedly agree with you on Epic vs Apple. *👊 bump*
 

Al3x1s

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Nov 24, 2018
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Sorry for dual post but something is messing formating for me

This part really needs to repeated because it shows whole hypocrisy of Epic behaviour

There is nothing anticompetitive about charging a commission for others to use one’s service. Many platforms—including Epic’s own app marketplace and Unreal Engine—do just that.

and it also shows that whole we do it for little guy shtick is nothing more than lie as possible repercussions for customers if Epic get's their own way could be extremely bad

For the more than 80% of apps available to consumers for free on the App Store, this means Apple earns no commission whatsoever. Epic wants to change that in ways that would have dire consequences for the App Store ecosystem. In its Motion for a Preliminary Injunction, Epic boldly suggests that Apple monetize the App Store by charging a regressive “per download fee,” leaving consumers and developers on the hook to pay for what otherwise would be billions of free app downloads.

So as anyone could see it from the start it's obvious Epic is fighting for their own profit and only their
Spot on. Lol @ shills/idiots going "but this other case with completely different circumstances caused another company to get fined, or/for something, also, please ignore all those doing the exact same thing with Epic's/our approval, also, a ~20% market share is a monopoly" as arguments, lol.

Do I want an ithing where I can install crap outside the App Store? I wouldn't buy any either way. Does the market want open devices? Not Apple's carved niche, they're free to buy them! Does Epic's desire to exploit, for free, all of Apple's investments that enabled their success by providing a segment of consumers something different to the competition, closed up devices that conform to Apple's exact vision, make that illegal? What if they also sued platform holders that do allow this like Google and tried to use their limited leverage to cut a deal and be the only company to benefit from zero fees on those stores while the relevant devices remain closed and the fees in place for all? What if they put gamers and developers in the middle of this by breaching contracts rather than simply settling it in court? Would all that make them heroes to idiots? Apparently yes, lol, gtfo :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
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Nicktendo_

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Because there haven't been other OSes back in 90s, when Microsoft was pwned hard., right?
See how limited and out of touch with reality this argument is?



Other OSs failed because they didn't give consumers what Google and Apple did. They failed because they couldn't keep up and people chose to flock to Android and iOS.

Entering the Apple ecosystem is a choice consumers make of their own free will and they are not a monopoly (<25% market share).

You keep popping up in these threads with really bad arguments and it's funny. Just because you really hate Apple doesn't mean they are in the wrong. The only thing that is seemingly limited and out of touch is your capacity to understand why anyone would buy an Apple product. STOOPID SHEEPLE, amirite?
 
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sn0man

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It's like tower defense, but with lawyers and lawsuits. Something tells me Apple will field the better units and more of them.
Yeah they’ve turtled for the last twenty years and now they’ve got aurora bombers.
 

sn0man

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I enjoyed reading that very much.

I don't get why some people have a hard time understanding this: is not about Apple having more money or better lawyers: they are simply right. Epic has no reasonable angle. They thought Apple would be happy to get any money at all but now they have discovered that Apple is willing to lose a lot of money to keep making a lot of money.

Apple built the platform, the hardware, the whole ecosystem. They created a new way to do business and people ate it up. They don't even make the best phones any more and still people love their products. They have the right to decide how to monetize it. Why would they create a new platform and just open it up for whatever other store that has not contributed anything to what iOS is?

Users and developers that want to have other options can have Android and make all their wishes come true. I use android, for example. It's been a while since I sideloaded anything but it's nice to have the option.

That said, Apple is very wrong in not allowing users repair their own computers. But that's another issue. This is not about the consumer at all. This is abour Apple profiting from stuff they built and an asshole who thought himself much bigger than what he really is.

I don't like Apple but I dislike stupidity even more.
I like Apple and I put up with their walled garden.

This take though. This is some good shit here! Bravo. I’ve got a MacBook an iPhone and a gaming PC running Linux. Apple and games are oil and water and even though I like their products they make money on micro transactions; aka not aligned with my gaming interests.
 
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llien

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(really bad arguments)
Thanks for the effort, though. At least you've tried.

What failed why is your (funny) take on things. Linux has not failed, was and is a valid alternative to Microsoft.
This flushes "but not monopolist" argument of yours kind down the toilet.

Apple has managed to be hit with anti-trust regulations when acting in a market 90% of which is controlled by Amazon. (books).
Let it sink in.
Their filthiness levels are that high.
 
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Nicktendo_

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Thanks for the effort, though. At least you've tried.

What failed why is your (funny) take on things. Linux has not failed, was and is a valid alternative to Microsoft.
This flushes "but not monopolist" argument of yours kind down the toilet.

Apple has managed to be hit with anti-trust regulations when acting in a market 90% of which is controlled by Amazon. (books).
Let it sink in.
Their filthiness levels are that high.


 

Nicktendo_

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Oct 30, 2018
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Apple fanboi are worse than console warriors.

Not as bad as people who don't understand how contract law and the free market work and try to use the government to break up companies they don't like.

I'm guessing you're German / EU loving European given your general lack of comprehension about this stuff. Muh, more EU. Muh, big monopoly break it up. Muh, profit is bad.

Your hate boner for Apple is funnier than any console warrior. You're in every thread without fail making clown arguments and using unrelated examples to prove your woeful points. Why do you care so much if you don't have any Apple products? How does this affect you outside of "BREAK APPLE UP! THEY BAD!"

My position is not the "Apple fanboi" position, it's the sensible, free market position. Apple do a lot of things wrong in many, many areas. But this ain't one of them, Chief. Continuing to argue that it is is quite amusing though.
 
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Silvawuff

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Epic is backed by a $1 trillion company, EPIC is just the trojan horse here for Tencent. Take a look at the Chinese model of Apple's business in China and Tencent's control .... Tencent is looking to extend that outside of China.

I think that theory is a bit wishy-washy, especially given their previous behavior with Steam and moneyhatting indie devs to push exclusivity on their own walled garden.

Tencent is already under fire in the US for TikTok data collection policies, I doubt they want to feed into another reason to get ousted from the US software market through some shady collusion with Epic.
 

ape2man

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From their website:
Free with physical goods and services
These apps are free for users to download and the developer generates revenue from the sale of physical goods and services, such as purchasing clothing, having food delivered or ordering a ride from a transportation service. Apple receives no commission from supporting, hosting and distributing these apps, or from transactions for physical goods and services in the app.

Apple receives a 100$ yearly developer subscription from developers.

You are calling people insane yet you just posted incorrect facts. You do not know what the hell you are talking about.

Yes i do and everyone seems to miss the point.

What is the differents between virtual and the phisical objects in relation to apple. Nothing they both are controlled and provided by other services. So what prevents apple from one day changing the terms and everything needs to go through apple pay and you need to pay 30% on top of your payments.. NOTHING!!!!!
 
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Kdad

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Apple receives a 100$ yearly developer subscription from developers.



Yes i do and everyone seems to miss the point.

What is the differents between virtual and the phisical objects in relation to apple. Nothing they both are controlled and provided by other services. So what prevents apple from one day changing the terms and everything needs to go through apple pay and you need to pay 30% on top of your payments.. NOTHING!!!!!
Ah...so Apple should provide all their development tools, ongoing review and hosting for zero $? Their website is accurate. The developer fee is not a commission.
 
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ape2man

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Ah...so Apple should provide all their development tools, ongoing review and hosting for zero $? Their website is accurate. The developer fee is not a commission.

No, set a minimum price for apps and your done.
 

Kdad

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No, set a minimum price for apps and your done.
Thats one approach. Apple has chosen a different approach. This different approach has created a vibrant store where developers can list there application including review, hosting, distribution costs for as low as $100 per year. Are you suggesting government should step in and not allow commission based stores?
 
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FStubbs

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I think that theory is a bit wishy-washy, especially given their previous behavior with Steam and moneyhatting indie devs to push exclusivity on their own walled garden.

Tencent is already under fire in the US for TikTok data collection policies, I doubt they want to feed into another reason to get ousted from the US software market through some shady collusion with Epic.

While what they're trying to do here is shady, it's technically not collusion with Epic. Epic is owned by Tencent.
 
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FStubbs

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I always thought Apple was greedy but holy shit Epic, what are you doing??

Game companies have been greedy for years now. Microtransactions, loot boxes, etc. Even Apple has never gone so far to say "hey, buy this box that might be an iPhone XI, or it might just be earbuds. $1000". Apple does do planned obsolescence, but so do the gaming companies.
 
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Mattyp

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proven false many times and, yeah, apple surely removed fortnite to prevail users security.

I'll give you $50,000 cash to unlock my iphone, should be an easy task then? When any of us can reflash 99% of androids on the market.

Fortnite has nothing to do with security, its the fact epic wants to side load or allow another appstore THAT is never going to happen from a security perspective.
 
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ape2man

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Thats one approach. Apple has chosen a different approach. This different approach has created a vibrant store where developers can list there application including review, hosting, distribution costs for as low as $100 per year. Are you suggesting government should step in and not allow commission based stores?

When they have a monopoly... yes.

i'm watching the apple event and i'm realizing apple is blocking microsoft of providing people with streaming service for games. But it is promoting there own arcade service. If thats not miss use of your monopoly i dont know what is....
 
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johntown

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Not an Apple fanboy but I absolutely hate Epic and if Apple can be a thorn in their side then I welcome it and hope it stops Epic from the crappy practices they do in the PC market.
 

Kdad

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When they have a monopoly... yes.

i'm watching the apple event and i'm realizing apple is blocking microsoft of providing people with streaming service for games. But it is promoting there own arcade service. If thats not miss use of your monopoly i dont know what is....
Apple is doing game streaming? That's BIG news if true. Apple arcade is not a game streaming service.

Also, Apple just put out new guidelines for streaming game systems...MS isn't blocked, MS simply needs to adhere to the rules...thier choice.
 
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diffusionx

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When they have a monopoly... yes.

i'm watching the apple event and i'm realizing apple is blocking microsoft of providing people with streaming service for games. But it is promoting there own arcade service. If thats not miss use of your monopoly i dont know what is....

Apple doesn't have a monopoly in any sense of the word, and Apple Arcade is not a streaming service.

Apple Arcade is most similar to GamePass, and obviously all Xbox games including GamePass games, have to go through MS for approval. It's exactly the same thing as what MS is doing on their own platform.

Come on people, at least TRY to make sense.
 
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ape2man

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Apple is doing game streaming? That's BIG news if true. Apple arcade is not a game streaming service.

Also, Apple just put out new guidelines for streaming game systems...MS isn't blocked, MS simply needs to adhere to the rules...thier choice.

"Apple arcade is not a game streaming service." The difference is that one runs on the app the other runs in a serverpark.
But the guidelines say microsoft needs to submit every game separately as stand alone app. Thats a unworkable situation for microsoft.

Apple doesn't have a monopoly in any sense of the word, and Apple Arcade is not a streaming service.

Apple Arcade is most similar to GamePass, and obviously all Xbox games including GamePass games, have to go through MS for approval. It's exactly the same thing as what MS is doing on their own platform.

Come on people, at least TRY to make sense.
Apple does have a monopoly, A monopoly is more about influence and control than market share.

Apple Arcade is most similar to GamePass, and obviously all Xbox games including GamePass games, have to go through MS for approval. It's exactly the same thing as what MS is doing on their own platform.

No its not because the apps are not running on the device. There is no way for microsoft to compete with apple on this. Because apple is following a policy that pushes aways competition and apple having a monopoly this is as illegal as fuck.

So, Apple does have a monopoly, A monopoly is more about influence and control than market share. check this nice case https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F3/253/34/576095/
 
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lukilladog

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Apple does not have any control over most streaming services so they cannot be a monopoly on that.
 

diffusionx

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"Apple arcade is not a game streaming service." The difference is that one runs on the app the other runs in a serverpark.
But the guidelines say microsoft needs to submit every game separately as stand alone app. Thats a unworkable situation for microsoft.


Apple does have a monopoly, A monopoly is more about influence and control than market share.

No, a monopoly is about market share. An illegal monopoly is engaging in anticompetitive behavior with that market share. You sent me a court decision about MS from 2001. Do you realize that MS had more than 90% of the desktop OS market at the time of that decision? Do you realize that Apple has around 10% of the mobile OS market right now? Anyone who does not like what Apple is doing can abandon the OS, focus on Android, and access 90% of the market.


No its not because the apps are not running on the device. There is no way for microsoft to compete with apple on this. Because apple is following a policy that pushes aways competition and apple having a monopoly this is as illegal as fuck.

GamePass and Apple Arcade are the same service. Apple is doing with AA exactly what MS is doing with GP on their own service.

Do you believe that MS has a monopoly on Xbox? After all there are no other stores and they take the same slices for transactions. Do you believe Sony has a monopoly on PlayStation?

Just because a company has a platform does not mean they are obligated to host any service at any terms the maker of the service finds agreeable.
 
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decisions

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Didn't open the link but it's probably some lame fuck trying to make a quick buck on fresh hot 'breaking news'.
Fuck that guy too. And his cat

Louis Rossmann is probably a very smart guy when it comes to hardware engineering and very good at his job. However, he has a reputation for being really popular among PC gaming fanboys who have never used a Mac before in their lives, and feel they are elites who understand computers because they play video games on them, and believe statements such as "Apple can't even design a hinge properly" to feel good about themselves. Meanwhile, neither Rossmann or PC gamers can understand the irony in holding such positions yet watching a channel full of someone repairing 5-10 year old MacBooks. Meanwhile, it is common to toss a Windows laptop after 2 years because it is slow as shit. Not saying there aren't some good Windows laptops, or that its literally impossible for a Mac to break earlier than it should, but Rossmann clearly has a vested interest in making ridiculous negative claims about Apple products, because his whole livelihood rests on propagating this idea, and so it is best to take whatever he says with a grain of salt as large as Steve Jobs' vision.
 
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VincentMatts

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No, a monopoly is about market share. An illegal monopoly is engaging in anticompetitive behavior with that market share. You sent me a court decision about MS from 2001. Do you realize that MS had more than 90% of the desktop OS market at the time of that decision? Do you realize that Apple has around 10% of the mobile OS market right now? Anyone who does not like what Apple is doing can abandon the OS, focus on Android, and access 90% of the market.




GamePass and Apple Arcade are the same service. Apple is doing with AA exactly what MS is doing with GP on their own service.

Do you believe that MS has a monopoly on Xbox? After all there are no other stores and they take the same slices for transactions. Do you believe Sony has a monopoly on PlayStation?

Just because a company has a platform does not mean they are obligated to host any service at any terms the maker of the service finds agreeable.

Not exactly, apple games are downloaded directly on the phone. Xcloud and stadia games are not. Thats the difference. Apple want MS and google to list every game in the app store and not the xcloud app even though there is no "game". Which also defeats the whole purpose of having the streaming app to begin with.

Oh but netflix, amazon video, spotify, those are fine. Just not games cause, how else will they charge 30% for those in game purchases?
 

DonJuanSchlong

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The end of today, is tomorrow dust
Louis Rossmann is probably a very smart guy when it comes to hardware engineering and very good at his job. However, he has a reputation for being really popular among PC gaming fanboys who have never used a Mac before in their lives, and feel they are elites who understand computers because they play video games on them, and believe statements such as "Apple can't even design a hinge properly" to feel good about themselves. Meanwhile, neither Rossmann or PC gamers can understand the irony in holding such positions yet watching a channel full of someone repairing 5-10 year old MacBooks. Meanwhile, it is common to toss a Windows laptop after 2 years because it is slow as shit. Not saying there aren't some good Windows laptops, or that its literally impossible for a Mac to break earlier than it should, but Rossmann clearly has a vested interest in making ridiculous negative claims about Apple products, because his whole livelihood rests on propagating this idea, and so it is best to take whatever he says with a grain of salt as large as Steve Jobs' vision.
Realistically speaking, those people who build gaming pc's and what not, have more experience and knowledge than the majority of professionals that use Mac's. Most of those guys gladly pay Apple to install another stick of ram in there, or have to rely on apple support when something goes wrong.

Rossman advocates repairs on ALL devices, not just Apple's. This includes computers, laptop, phones, and various electrical devices It just so happens Macs are poorly designed/built. You can see that on multiple breakdowns, across their hardware over the years. Not to mention planned obsolescence. Anyone who cares about technology usually don't coincide with Apple's ideology, minus the hardcore fanboys.
 

Azelover

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Never thought I'd say this, but I'm on Apple's side with this..
 

General Lee

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There's nothing positive to be gained by anyone by supporting Apple, unless you happen to own stock in the company. Its walled garden can crash for all I care. Epic and what it does is irrelevant in comparison. Apple and Google own the only two widely used smart phone operating systems, which gives them unprecedented amount of control over people's lives as well as other businesses. Apple's 2 trillion dollar valuation should tell you something how much they are fleecing people thanks to their position. They do deserve to be rewarded for creating great devices and software, but they don't "deserve" any monopolistic practices which they definitely have done and increasingly will do. It's only a matter of time until government anti-trust will come calling, regardless of this Epic suit.
 

reinking

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Linus has a pretty good overview he put up on youtube
If you have an hour to spare... This guys does some really good legal videos and was asked by some of his viewers to give input. He was really fair to Linus and gave him credit but gave input on the legality of the situation.