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Apple iPad revealed
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
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wmat said:
Why are you talking about the corporate world as if they're "the big picture"?
Apple is a consumer hardware company, for one, and looking to the corporate world for where consumer technology is headed is batshit crazy. Who gives a fuck what some cubicle monkey is forced to use? I sure don't.
SaggyMonkey
Member
SuperPac said:
I do use that on the phone already. It'd be interesting to make a touch interface app version. Maybe you could set up a home screen that watches several threads you're interested in at once almost like that new photo interface they showed. "peek" at each one and see a current snap shot of the "last" page. It could watch for if someone quoted something you said and flag it for you.
Maybe setup some keywords to alert you to new threads you might be interested in. (game titles, company names, whatever) In other boards with more than two smileys, maybe that'd use a drag/drop interface.
chaostrophy
Member
I can't imagine anyone wanting to buy this thing at the set price. Compared to a standard netbook, you lose CPU speed, multitasking ability, and a keyboard, and pay a couple hundred dollars more. Maybe if it was in the $200-250 range...but $500? Really?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
It's funny watching the computer spec nerds around the Internet with this argument, as if high-quality touchscreens and thinness don't cost anything.chaostrophy said:
I hope I'm not the only one constantly annoyed by the claims of certain people that they are the ones that know average consumer needs while telling everyone else that they don't know crap because they don't get iPad.
Maybe you're the one that's part of that group who doesn't get it.
But only time will tell who's really right.
Maybe you're the one that's part of that group who doesn't get it.
But only time will tell who's really right.
Willy105 said:
I'm sorry but as nice as the iPad is as a gadget and toy, and as convincing as Apple always are, the iPad is fundamentally ill conceived as a product. Its NOT the Wii, ipod or iphone AT ALL.
Those products all take a basic function and present it in an accessible way with innovative and advanced technology and complimentary software. They wrap it up in wonderful aesthetics and complimentary features, but the need always led the solution, and Apple made the best solutions.
The iPad takes great technology and finds uses to put inside. Its like they wanted to make this box and worried about how to fill (and sell) it later. Its fundamentally, conceptually different to the others - and it makes a difference.
Its not an upgrade, its not a replacement for anything, not in terms of product placement or in terms of roles in lifestyles.
saying "this might not be great for us, but it is for the casuals" is just absurdly presumptuous and kind of belittling for "casuals", I kind of find it offensive that someone would say something like that, just shows a complete lack of understanding. Let me break down what "casuals" do all day on the internet
- browser based email, hotmail etc
- facebook, flash based chat, games, etc
- youtube
- msn or other IM client
- downloading illegal content
- forums
on a laptop this all happens via browser + chat + bittorrent or irc or something. at the same time. people send each other links, open multiple tabs, preload videos and so on. twitter is best when it lives in your browser or alongside it, updating you every couple of minutes rather than waiting for you to close everything else and open a twitter app.
good luck copying and pasting a youtube link to your msn or facebook friends on the iPad.
what strikes me about this product (and with everyone calling it a big iphone) is that the phone aspect has been seriously underestimated. the way people use it is dictated by this and its a success as a phone OS.
but put that OS in a more heavy usage environment and it becomes a tool of convenience at best. "I use it because it happens to be in my pocket, switched on and online" not because it offers a great experience. I'm being lazy basically, willing to sacrifice better experience for not having to move.
Will the iPad benefit from the same lazy factor? possibly, but not to the same degree. its not going to be in pockets for one. gonna open that bag and pull it out? fetch it from the other room maybe? or are you gonna use that iphone in your pocket?
this is why I think Apple have made an ill conceived product. It should be an ipod for books, a device which happens to do other things. instead they made it into a bridge between iphone-laptop - oh and it happens to read books.
still might buy one mind!
Shogmaster
Ask me about my package
They don't have access to the cool-aid.SnakeXs said:
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
I just find it so interesting that we'll going to have so many choices in computing.
Tablets
Netbooks
Laptops
Desktops
Variety is good. I'll definitely sink into an iPad once Apple gets it into gear. My only question is whether or not I should buy a Macbook Pro to go with it or shave off the costs and portability and buy an iMac. Since I do media work I need a powerful computer, than again I like to carry around my computer and work in a variety of places.
Anyone?
Tablets
Netbooks
Laptops
Desktops
Variety is good. I'll definitely sink into an iPad once Apple gets it into gear. My only question is whether or not I should buy a Macbook Pro to go with it or shave off the costs and portability and buy an iMac. Since I do media work I need a powerful computer, than again I like to carry around my computer and work in a variety of places.
Flying_Phoenix said:
Anyone?
wolfmat
Confirmed Asshole
The corporate world is responsible for keeping the interfaces from the 80s around, for one.SnakeXs said:
They dictate what the middle road in computing is, and all you can do is stray a bit off that path. That's exactly what Apple's doing with the iPad. And even then, people are complaining about no multitasking, no Flash et cetera.
What's been implicated above, that a company can drag the middle road off so much that metaphors change all over the place, has little precedence. That's what I was mostly talking about.
WARNING: Anecdotal evidence ahead!
I caught my manager watching the iPad video ad today. Why? Because she's not the type to deal with computers much, so guess what the default homepage is on her browser? www.apple.com.
First thing she saw was iPad. So she clicked on it and watched the video.
As I walked by, she said to me, "Have you seen this? It's AMAZING!" and then proceeded to toll the virtues of photos, touch, gestures, iBooks, iBookstore, video, email, and the amazing accelerometer.
Let's face it - there's been no market for the tablet form factor. People have tried, yet it has remained niche. Apple are trying to forge a new version -the consumer version. They will tell you they are trying to create a new category (whether you believe them or not, THEY believe it or at least tell you they do). I think they've got a solid foundation on it. People say, "It's just a big iPod touch! They haven't done anything new!" Haven't they? The way I see it, it's a new computing device with technologies that Apple had the foresight to introduce to us in devices people were already familiar with - the phone and iPod. It's not an 'old' device - it's a familiar one. They're producing a device that will capture the imagination of the general public because they already know how to use it.
I caught my manager watching the iPad video ad today. Why? Because she's not the type to deal with computers much, so guess what the default homepage is on her browser? www.apple.com.
First thing she saw was iPad. So she clicked on it and watched the video.
As I walked by, she said to me, "Have you seen this? It's AMAZING!" and then proceeded to toll the virtues of photos, touch, gestures, iBooks, iBookstore, video, email, and the amazing accelerometer.
Let's face it - there's been no market for the tablet form factor. People have tried, yet it has remained niche. Apple are trying to forge a new version -the consumer version. They will tell you they are trying to create a new category (whether you believe them or not, THEY believe it or at least tell you they do). I think they've got a solid foundation on it. People say, "It's just a big iPod touch! They haven't done anything new!" Haven't they? The way I see it, it's a new computing device with technologies that Apple had the foresight to introduce to us in devices people were already familiar with - the phone and iPod. It's not an 'old' device - it's a familiar one. They're producing a device that will capture the imagination of the general public because they already know how to use it.
I disgust myself sometimes
chaostrophy
Member
SnakeXs said:
I care about both of those. A keyboard is hardware I care about, and has nothing to do with clock speed. And having a real OS on a portable device gives compatibility with a much wider range of software than any specialized portable device OS. I'd be impressed with the iPad if it was compatible with full-fledged OS X even if it wasn't a speed demon.
wmat said:
Again, at what point did Apple fall into a trap of giving a shit? They don't care about corporate environments. The classic mouse and keyboard OS is around because it's been the best at what people do. It will stay around because it's the best at some things people do. Technology has reached a point where alternatives can exist, and so they do.
chaostrophy said:
Congrats, it's not for you. Moving on...
MSI Android Tablet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlXg1i5dJCM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynHMgUOrJxo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHOS6587kVY
Archos 9:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1544BOSDlcw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGOInEqBE3U
Some of this stuff just isn't ready for prime time. The problem with the Archos illustrates itself in the video. (slow, not really touch oriented when you compare it to the MSI. Remember that Windows is x86, so Atom is its only choice right now) The MSI tablet looks a lot smoother than the 1.1ghz Atom that the Archos is using, but it doesn't seem like they're properly using the extra screen real estate with the tablet form factor. Compare iTunes on the iPad to the music player on the MSI and you'll get what I'm talking about--less taps and screen changes necessary. Gruber described this well with the new 'popovers' in iPhone OS 3.2: http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/various_ipad_thoughts
So really, this is what will differentiate it from just a "larger iPhone". Desktop class applications. Perfect examples of this are right on the features page:
Mail
iTunes
Calendar
Contacts
and so on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlXg1i5dJCM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynHMgUOrJxo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHOS6587kVY
Archos 9:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1544BOSDlcw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGOInEqBE3U
Some of this stuff just isn't ready for prime time. The problem with the Archos illustrates itself in the video. (slow, not really touch oriented when you compare it to the MSI. Remember that Windows is x86, so Atom is its only choice right now) The MSI tablet looks a lot smoother than the 1.1ghz Atom that the Archos is using, but it doesn't seem like they're properly using the extra screen real estate with the tablet form factor. Compare iTunes on the iPad to the music player on the MSI and you'll get what I'm talking about--less taps and screen changes necessary. Gruber described this well with the new 'popovers' in iPhone OS 3.2: http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/various_ipad_thoughts
So really, this is what will differentiate it from just a "larger iPhone". Desktop class applications. Perfect examples of this are right on the features page:
iTunes
Calendar
Contacts
and so on.
Timbuktu said:
Yes, easy. But how much does an air cost, and how much would putting in a 13" captive glass touch screen?
And somehow THAT wouldn't be a niche product?
As much as a lot of you guys would drool over such a product, very few of you would buy it, and even less regular people will buy it.
Marty Chinn
Member
Maybe this sums up the contradiction best:
As big of a seller as netbooks are, nobody makes that big of a deal of them because it's a smaller laptop and the true attraction is the price. Nobody makes a big deal when going from say a 13" to a 17" laptop cuz it's a different screen size. But somehow, you want us to get excited over going from an iPhone/iTouch to a bigger form factor and that is revolutionary? A lot of us don't see the functionality being any significantly different than from an iPhone/iTouch other than having a larger canvas. I'm not the only one who wanted to see an iPhone like device but expanded on its functionality even in the slightest way.
As big of a seller as netbooks are, nobody makes that big of a deal of them because it's a smaller laptop and the true attraction is the price. Nobody makes a big deal when going from say a 13" to a 17" laptop cuz it's a different screen size. But somehow, you want us to get excited over going from an iPhone/iTouch to a bigger form factor and that is revolutionary? A lot of us don't see the functionality being any significantly different than from an iPhone/iTouch other than having a larger canvas. I'm not the only one who wanted to see an iPhone like device but expanded on its functionality even in the slightest way.
This is not an access issue.Shogmaster said:They don't have access to the cool-aid.
Kool-aid is the original open source. Anybody can make it at home with a flavor packet, sugar, water and an empty milk jug.
The problem is that juice boxes have abstracted the the underlying kool-aid making process so now we have a whole generation of kids who don't know how to make their own.
wolfmat
Confirmed Asshole
I'm not saying it can't exist; I'll probably support its existance myself by providing software, actually.SnakeXs said:
But the big picture is something else than the mere ability to exist.
And it's not for me because I can't afford it. If I had the money, I'd get one.
Why be so defensive? It's not like I want this product to fail, quite the opposite. I'm just saying that the big picture won't adapt just because Apple brought this thing out.
V
Vennt
Unconfirmed Member
The Archos 9 will certainly go down in flames, it has a 3 hour battery life, ships with Windows 7 Starter edition (Ugh!) and only has WiFi 802.11b/g, so streaming anything HD over an 802.11n network will be painful. All for £450-£500 here in the UK, It's just not going to compete.
The ones to watch will be the competing models from Asus, MSI, Dell and Notion Ink.
The Notion Ink one (Adam) looks the best of the rest to me, the question is whether they'll have the clout to make it to market, or will fall by the wayside like the CrunchPad.
The ones to watch will be the competing models from Asus, MSI, Dell and Notion Ink.
The Notion Ink one (Adam) looks the best of the rest to me, the question is whether they'll have the clout to make it to market, or will fall by the wayside like the CrunchPad.
mrklaw said:
My question is how the browser will handle tabs. If it has to reload them on switches, yeah no, I can't live that.
Juice said:
Probably. Though I think it's also possible the year (2010) may end up being what is remembered, assuming Android or ChromeOS tablets take off.
chaostrophy said:
It can probably browse the internet faster than a netbook because the input method is more direct and natural. Netbooks have those tiny trackpads and then you have to inch the mouse pointer over to the scroll bar and click it, then inch it back to click a hyperlink. (somewhat hyperbolising)
If you're playing the spec game, it has a gorgeous looking IPS screen which is a *big* plus for me
and are netbooks really that cheap in the US? They're like £300 in the UK, so if the iPad is around £400 the differential is really not that great.
Marty Chinn said:
I understand entirely, and that somewhat befuddles me too. Or atleast the part of me that wanted a revolution. But may be, hidden in all of this that IS the revolution. Rather than the iPad being a bigger iPod touch, maybe the iPod touch (and iPhone) are just smaller versions of that. They just brought them out first. Maybe that was always Steve's vision.
I think people are too hooked up about this possibly being just a cash-in job on the appstore and iPhone success to stop and think that all this is a culmination of years of research. It's so similar to the iPod (and it's similar to the iPad) because it works in both sizes. The concepts scale.
Personally, I think the larger screen IS a significant thing. Why? Gestures. I know you don't have a MacBook Pro, but one of the first things people will tout about a MBP over any other laptop is that gesture interface. It makes navigating a visual based environment easy. For a touch based one, it's super natural.
Then the obvious next step is: SO where is it in the iPad? I'd say the answer is: coming.
Think about all the iterations of the iDevices and how they are rudimentary when launched. The ipods first mechanical click wheel. The iPhone, surprisingly got a lot more right the first time (based on all those years of research), but simple things like app reorganisation, cut and past in a touch environment, home button navigation (double-click options and click to go back to 1st home screen) and so on are famous examples of it not being there the first time around.
With gestures, it will be easy to incorporate all sorts of controls, maybe not in the default apps, or OS initially, but it will happen in some apps, and probably future iterations of the OS. Touch controls are great on a small screen, but imagine what the screen can do for touch when it's so large.
Teddman said:True, I am taking a U.S.-centric approach to my criticisms.
I guess if most of the flash content out there wasn't playable in my country anyway, this might not be as big a deal.
Maybe Jobs could come up with a "Sorry, Videos Are Not Currently Available in Flash" disclaimer?
Or maybe he could stop fucking his customers because something he doesn't control is popular?
Buckethead
Banned
I want to see some homies type extensively on this joint!!Buckethead said:
Also, does Shog have some sort of anti-trolling summon protecting him from the banhammer? Just askin'. :lol
wolfmat
Confirmed Asshole
As I said, whenever you build a UI experience, you start with what works. And what works has been established through work environments.SnakeXs said:
You can see that if you look at what Alan Kay did at XEROX. All the metaphors we're so used to today were pioneered by him. But that didn't have an impact at all at home. It started being appreciated as soon as the corporate environment adopted these concepts in their own applications though; GEM, for example. Apple also played a role in that, obviously, that was when they were _the_ DTP computing provider.
Then, Windows came into the mix and catered well to that whole complex, establishing the norm even further, making it the ubiquitous working metaphor all throughout computing.
So what I'm saying is whatever you do, UI familiarity stems from working environment adaptation, and Apple strays from that, but what they do still is in the same vein because being too out-of-the-box would lead to alienation.
And specifically the 100% touch thing won't be the big picture because of that. As lovely as it is.
jts
...hate me...
Apple would never build a tablet around OSX.
They would NEVER tell the consumer: "Hey, here's a tablet with OSX. Enjoy having at disposal thousands of apps designed with kb/m in mind that will be HELL to use with your fingers".
That's just not Apple. That's Microsoft.
Apple is a usability-oriented company and has 2 OS's, one for touch devices and one for kb/m computers (and also separated by processor architecture). Each one with its own dev community. Bitch about it or just embrace it and hope that they keep fleshing out iPhone OS as they have been doing for the past 3 years.
They would NEVER tell the consumer: "Hey, here's a tablet with OSX. Enjoy having at disposal thousands of apps designed with kb/m in mind that will be HELL to use with your fingers".
That's just not Apple. That's Microsoft.
Apple is a usability-oriented company and has 2 OS's, one for touch devices and one for kb/m computers (and also separated by processor architecture). Each one with its own dev community. Bitch about it or just embrace it and hope that they keep fleshing out iPhone OS as they have been doing for the past 3 years.
Peronthious
Member
I was a bit lukewarm on the iPad until I thought about the music synthesis capabilities of the thing. Multitouch synths do exist, but they can run many times the cost of the baseline iPad. There are already several apps on iTunes that approach the functionality of professional synths, and with a workspace the size of the iPad I can't wait to see what will be developed.
Raistlin said:
I was keeping a keen eye out for that, and to me, it looks like it does load them again, from videos I've seen
Then again, I always assumed that was a RAM thing. That you could keep one or two loaded, but the caches were first to go when an app needed memory.
People always spoke of Safari 'loading' in the background, but that has never occurred for me.
I figured that with the better processor came more memory and better caching to allow less page reloads.
SO, I'm not sure if the page reloads I saw on the iPad are due to RAM or if it's integral to the OS.
Also, the pages show up as a grid.
V
Vennt
Unconfirmed Member
wmat said:
Well, with the amount of money Microsoft is throwing into developing and promoting Surface, I'd say they disagree.
Just because a UI is currently is the way things are done one day it's the way they'll always be is incredibly shortsighted, otherwise we'd all still be using a command line and the tab/cursor keys a whole lot more .
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Vennt said:
No reason to further limit things-- in fact, the opposite.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
wmat said:
Laptops have been outselling desktops for a couple of years now, maybe longer.
those 'popovers' would be very useful for brief previews of incoming emails, or tweets, or popping up something like echofon while in safari.
If it does reload the 'tabs' that thats almost a dealbreaker right there. Although I sometimes use tabs just to keep favourite sites easily accessible, I also like to preload a bunch - eg gaf threads, ready for reading.
If it does reload the 'tabs' that thats almost a dealbreaker right there. Although I sometimes use tabs just to keep favourite sites easily accessible, I also like to preload a bunch - eg gaf threads, ready for reading.
*scratches head* Of all the things people are complaining about wrt the iPad, its level of abstraction hasn't really been anywhere near the top of the heap. Personally, as someone who isn't particularly fond of this first iteration, one of the reasons is specifically because there's LESS abstraction than I hoped for. I was hoping they would have come up with more ways put the computer in automatic for people...better predictive text, voice control 2.0, etc. And, ironically, if you want to make the computer more automatic for people, allowing the OS to multitask actually helps...Tobor said:
wolfmat
Confirmed Asshole
I'm still using the command line a lot thoughVennt said:Well, with the amount of money Microsoft is throwing into developing and promoting Surface, I'd say they disagree.
Just because a UI is currently is the way things are done one day it's the way they'll always be is incredibly shortsighted, otherwise we'd all still be using a command line and the tab/cursor keys a whole lot more .
I'm not saying that it'll always stay that way. I think that UIs have to prove themselves in working environments though. And for that to happen, they have to either come from that place or bleed through. I'm not giving the iPad user experience much chances in that sense.
Shogmaster
Ask me about my package
WHAT IS THIS "JUICE"?!? I want "DRINK"!scola said:
wonderkins
Member
Riding BART this morning, overheard a few older people talking about the iPad. I guess the nightly local news had a story. Seemed enthused about it. Then coming home, some hobo-looking guy saw two kids, each with an iphone. Asked if they had heard about the iPad. They said no. And then ignored him as he described it.
It was all kind of amusing, even if entirely meaningless.
It was all kind of amusing, even if entirely meaningless.
mrkgoo said:
I would argue, whether it is the OS or due to RAM (if it's the former though, I suspect why they do it is because of the latter), it's an issue.
mrklaw said:
.
kaching said:*scratches head* Of all the things people are complaining about wrt the iPad, its level of abstraction hasn't really been anywhere near the top of the heap. Personally, as someone who isn't particularly fond of this first iteration, one of the reasons is specifically because there's LESS abstraction than I hoped for. I was hoping they would have come up with more ways put the computer in automatic for people...better predictive text, voice control 2.0, etc. And, ironically, if you want to make the computer more automatic for people, allowing the OS to multitask actually helps...
Yeah, the problem isn't necessarily the abstraction, it's that certain features are missing or gimped. I think what some people are arguing however, is that in Apple's version of abstraction, gimping seems to go hand in hand.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
Seth C said:
I like how now that it's not $1000, $500 is like raping your mother and severely overpriced. And I love how people list ipod touch prices as the "sweet spots" for pricing. $100-$200 for a mbp is when everyone would have one but I can start to justify it for $299....
Raistlin said:
That is one of the things I'm worried about also. It's hard to say it's ok to multi task by hitting home to switch when it has to reload the web page you are on. That would be awful especially with the power it has, there shouldn't really be a reason. I don't even mind tabs at this point as long as it doesn't reload.
Raistlin said:
Agreed. But depending on which it is means a different possible solution.
And you bring up a good point that if it is OS, it's most likely due to RAM. THEN, the solution is decidedly more RAM, meaning it is solvable.
I have a feeling that the iPhone OS doesn't use much 'virtual memory'. Or does it? The amount of frees space that is reported by the OS is different from apps that report it, so maybe it does.
The issue with these kind of 'non-computer' devices is that if it doesn't use caches, except in RAM, means we get no persistent web pages stored in a HD cache.
I have no idea how any of this works.
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