Support NeoGAF

[Mr. Wonderful]

I guess it's not surprising that so many people are willing to regurgitate Apple's bullshit.

It's like their own little volunteer PR company.

Yup. HTML5 is promising, but Apple fan(boys) are jumping all over it as if the standard is already complete and superior in quality.

 

[D4Danger]

No, it's not clear at all what you were trying to say. Sorry.

fair enough. I'll try again...

what I meant was there seems to be a lot of people, bloggers, websites etc going out of their way to attack Flash. I just find it amazing that suddenly it's the worst thing on the web and Apple are saving us from the evil Adobe empire.

Do you think if the iPad had Flash we would see any of these articles? no.

 

[Reginald P. Linux]

This whole anti-Flash thing is ridiculous. What's the problem with supporting Flash now until HTML5 becomes more widespread? HTML5 is new and there's still this h.264 vs. Ogg debate going on, it's not going to happen for a while. Oh, battery life? Well my iPod's battery life goes to hell whenever I stream video from YouTube or Giantbomb so I guess Apple should just drop Wifi?

 

[Schlep]

I just find it amazing that suddenly it's the worst thing on the web and Apple are saving us from the evil Adobe empire.

Suddenly? no. For Mac users, Flash has been the worst thing on the web for a long time. The issue has been brought to light 'suddenly' because of the iPad.

 

[Tobor]

fair enough. I'll try again...

what I meant was there seems to be a lot of people, bloggers, websites etc going out of their way to attack Flash. I just find it amazing that suddenly it's the worst thing on the web and Apple are saving us from the evil Adobe empire.

Do you think if the iPad had Flash we would see any of these articles? no.

This isn't sudden, though. It's come to a head, certainly, but there was plenty of talk about Flash/HTML5 before the iPad announcement, and it wasn't all coming from Apple.

It bears repeating that there are 75 million 3.5" devices in customers hands that do not support Flash, and won't in the future. That's a big deal, and it's not regurgitating PR to discuss it, or how it will effect Adobe now that a 10" tablet is set to join them.

Read that Robert Scoble piece again, he's not picking a side, it's an even handed analysis.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

This whole anti-Flash thing is ridiculous. What's the problem with supporting Flash now until HTML5 becomes more widespread? HTML5 is new and there's still this h.264 vs. Ogg debate going on, it's not going to happen for a while. Oh, battery life? Well my iPod's battery life goes to hell whenever I stream video from YouTube or Giantbomb so I guess Apple should just drop Wifi?

Most likely to get the ball rolling quicker. But I agree, there should be an option to enable Flash if the person so chooses

 

[tino]

This whole anti-Flash thing is ridiculous. What's the problem with supporting Flash now until HTML5 becomes more widespread? HTML5 is new and there's still this h.264 vs. Ogg debate going on, it's not going to happen for a while. Oh, battery life? Well my iPod's battery life goes to hell whenever I stream video from YouTube or Giantbomb so I guess Apple should just drop Wifi?

I use flashblock to disable flash on my netbook. I only have a handful of sites with flash enabled. Try it yourself and you will find crazy amount of flash content are just ads. I am talk about 99% of the non-youtube content.

Here is the point, a flash-less browsing experience is a lot better.

 

[giga]

This whole anti-Flash thing is ridiculous. What's the problem with supporting Flash now until HTML5 becomes more widespread? HTML5 is new and there's still this h.264 vs. Ogg debate going on, it's not going to happen for a while. Oh, battery life? Well my iPod's battery life goes to hell whenever I stream video from YouTube or Giantbomb so I guess Apple should just drop Wifi?

It'll go to hell much, much faster. Comparisons in absolutes like that aren't very rational.

Anyhow Firefox mobile disables Flash by default. Wonder why..

http://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2010/01/27/firefox-for-maemo-rc3-available-now/

We’ve decided to disable plugin (not to be confused with add-ons, which are supported) support for this release. The Adobe Flash plugin used on many sites degraded the performance of the browser to the point where it didn’t meet our standards.

Mac users have been dealing with this shit for ages now. It's not surprising that Jobs is taking a hard line stance now to protect his brand. When an average joe gets a Safari crash, do you think they blame Apple or Adobe? Who is worse off and could potentially lose sales and brand reputation?

 

[mrkgoo]

I haven't chimed it much on the flash thing because I don't know too much about it.

I have absolutely not missed it on my iPhone. That said, I believe the iPad will be a different device and so missing flash may be an issue there. I don't know, because I can't predict exactly where the device will fall in my normal usage.

As far as Macs go, I use the Hulu app, so I guess that's my biggest use of flash.

The way I see it, I have verily little control so yammering about it doesn't achieve much. I accept it. I know that's a bad attitude to take, because whining about it can force a company to go back and do something about it. Frankly, though, there are enough complainers that Apple most definitely know it's an issue.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

fair enough. I'll try again...

what I meant was there seems to be a lot of people, bloggers, websites etc going out of their way to attack Flash. I just find it amazing that suddenly it's the worst thing on the web and Apple are saving us from the evil Adobe empire.

Do you think if the iPad had Flash we would see any of these articles? no.

The articles wouldn't have appeared, no, but there has been a backlash against Flash going on for a while, Apple didn't start this. There's a flashblock add-on for Firefox for a reason.

 

[Vic]

Maybe the whole Flash argument is played out (and at this point I'm convinced people want it for two reasons, Hulu and porn), but Gruber and Scoble have some interesting blog posts about it.

Gruber: Who can do something about those blue boxes?

Scoble: Can Flash Be Saved?

Main point seems to be that if there's enough pressure to stop supporting Flash things will change. Plus, there's this - Flash's Decline on Lifehacker from 2006-2010. Yes this is small percentages, but if the trend continues in that direction there will be a tipping point.

I might be stating the obvious, but what the Lifehacker article made me realized is that Flash might have hit a wall when it comes to portability to differents platforms. The only optimal version of Flash is the Windows version. Remembering how much they've struggled to make a Linux version (and Mac as well it seems), they probably won't be able to keep up with all the different new architechtures that are going to published in the coming years.

 

[Sean]

fair enough. I'll try again...

what I meant was there seems to be a lot of people, bloggers, websites etc going out of their way to attack Flash. I just find it amazing that suddenly it's the worst thing on the web and Apple are saving us from the evil Adobe empire.

Do you think if the iPad had Flash we would see any of these articles? no.

Mac users have been complaining about Flash for years, even before the iPhone was ever released. Here's a quick article I found from 2005: http://madowney.com/blog/2005/08/14/flash-player-8-on-the-mac/

Flash plugin is simply not up to par on non-Windows platforms.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

FOR THOSE NOT WANTING TO READ:

Let’s go back a few years to when Firefox was just coming on the scene. Remember that? I remember that it didn’t work with a ton of websites. Things like banks, ecommerce sites, and others. Why not? Because those sites were coded specifically for the dominant Internet Explorer back then.

Some people thought Firefox was going to fail because of these broken links. Just like Adobe is trying to say that Apple’s iPad is going to fail because of its own set of broken links.

But just a few years later and have you seen a site that doesn’t work on Firefox? I haven’t.

What happened? Firefox FORCED developers to get on board with the standards-based web.

The same thing is happening now, based on my talks with developers: they are not including Flash in their future web plans any longer.

This has Adobe freaked out. Big time.

So, can Adobe save Flash? No.

But Google can.

The thing is, does Google want to? Google has been positioning itself as a company that supports the open web. It doesn’t like opaque boxes that aren’t friendly to the web. Google has been putting a lot of support behind HTML 5, for instance, and just a couple of weeks ago added support for HTML 5 to YouTube, which takes away a big chunk of Adobe’s argument (I bet Hulu and other players will soon jump onto the HTML 5 bandwagon, or, at minimum, will support the iPad/iPhone video streaming technologies. Even Ustream.tv has an iPhone app now that works fine with streaming video).

Google is widely seen as the only company right now that is challenging Apple at all (and even then, Google’s Android is clearly #2 in the race and doesn’t look like it will be able to challenge iPhone/iPad this year). After playing a bunch of great games on the iPhone, I don’t agree with the claims that Flash is needed anymore. If Adobe is losing people like me and the developers that decide the future of the web, they are in big trouble.

Could Nokia help Adobe out? No. The web elite don’t have Nokia phones and don’t care about Nokia.

Could Microsoft help Adobe out? Well, unless the Xbox all of a sudden supported Flash in some major and cool way, I don’t see Microsoft support mattering at all to the Web elite. And Microsoft is pushing its own Flash copy, Silverlight, which NBC is using for the Winter Olympics and RedBull is using for its Stratos event (it is expecting five million to watch a guy skyjump from 120,000 feet for the world record).

Could RIM help Adobe out? No, because its customers can’t use the web browser so it won’t be able to convince developers or consumers that it is a web leader.

Is there some way for Adobe to convince Apple that Flash matters? No. Adobe had three years to do that and has failed. That said, Adobe has invited press to its headquarters in the next few weeks to see its new platform and my friends who are using it say it’s pretty nice. Uses very little memory and is friendly on batteries.

So, Adobe’s best hope is to get Android to support Flash and Adobe’s best hope is that developers ignore the iPad and ignore the iPhone, or, at least, build better experiences on the Android and Google Chrome platforms that include Flash.

Well, it has one other thing it could do: it could come out with a set of developer tools that lets you build apps for the iPhone and iPad but that also let you deploy even better features to Android and other platforms.

The thing is, I bet those broken links start disappearing by summertime, so Adobe’s window to keep Flash relevant is closing quickly.

How about you? Can Flash be saved?

Adobe better have a great story to tell at SXSWi, because that’s where a lot of the Web elite gather each year. That means Adobe has six weeks to get an answer together for why Flash is relevant.

Can it do it? Can Flash be saved?

Floppy Disks

An anecdote: When the iMac came out, Apple drew a line in the sand. They said: we are no longer going to ship a computer with a floppy disk drive. The entire industry shit its pants so loudly and forcefully that you probably could have heard it from outer space.

Are you insane? I spent all this money on a floppy drive! All my software is on floppy disks! You’ve committed brand suicide! Nobody will stand for this!

Fast-forward to today. I can’t think of a single useful thing to do with a floppy disk. I can go to the supermarket and buy a CD, DVD, or flash drive that is faster, smaller, and stores 1,000 times as much data for typically less than a box of floppies used to cost. Or better still, we can just toss things to each other over the network.

To get there, yes, we had to throw away some of our investment in hardware. We had to re-think how we did things. It required adjustment. A bit of sacrifice. The end result, I think we can all agree regardless of what platform we use, is orders of magnitude more convenient, easier to use, and in line with today’s storage requirements.

Staying with floppies would have spared us the inconvenience of that transition but at what long-term cost?

Nothing is ever simply black or white. There was a cost to making the transition. But there was a benefit to doing so.

To change was not all good. To stay put was not all bad. But there was a ratio of goodness-to-badness that, in the long run, was quite favorable for everyone involved. However in the short term it seemed so insurmountable, so ludicrous, that it beggared the belief of a large number of otherwise very intelligent people.

For a species so famous for being adaptable to its environment, we certainly abhor change. Especially a change that involves any amount of money being spent.

 

[flyover]

This whole anti-Flash thing is ridiculous. What's the problem with supporting Flash now until HTML5 becomes more widespread?

Because Apple feels that the fastest way to accelerate HTML5's ubiquity and to marginalize Flash is to omit it, altogether.

Don't get me wrong, they're not doing it out of selflessness. They also just don't want to support a proprietary technology over which they no control.

 

[Particle Physicist]

Because Apple feels that the fastest way to accelerate HTML5's ubiquity and to marginalize Flash is to omit it, altogether.

Don't get me wrong, they're not doing it out of selflessness. They also just don't want to support a proprietary technology over which they no control.

And also runs like shit on their machines. The faster they accelerate html5 adoption, the better it will be for their products.

 

[Reginald P. Linux]

Anyhow Firefox mobile disables Flash by default. Wonder why..

http://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2010/01/27/firefox-for-maemo-rc3-available-now/

But it's still there if I need it (whether it's on by default or not is irrelevant).

 

[giga]

But it's still there if I need it (whether it's on by default or not is irrelevant).

It was relevant to my point. (that even Mozilla isn't satisfied with Flash on mobile devices and is disabling it by default. You're not going to get consumers typing about:config)

 

[Technosteve]

there needs to be a rpg, where companies do battle against Apple inc. The last boss being Steve himself.

 

[Epic Tier 3 Engineer]

It was relevant to my point. (that even Mozilla isn't satisfied with Flash on mobile devices and is disabling it by default. You're not going to get consumers typing about:config)

Who the hell cares about what consumers are capable of doing. I can if I want to.

That said, I disable flash the majority of the time. So whatever!

 

[flyover]

And also runs like shit on their machines. The faster they accelerate html5 adoption, the better it will be for their products.

Exactly. Especially when Apple (not just Adobe) would have to make changes that would allow Flash to run better on their platforms. Apple doesn't want take the time and spend the money to do Adobe that favor -- especially when they might then have to make more changes in the future to accommodate updates to Flash. (Apple already dealt with this last year, when they updated their Safari plugin handling, pretty much because of Flash.)

 

[The_Inquisitor]

Sorry flash sucks ass on Mac. Last night I was trying to run scrabble in firefox. I couldn't type any words in for some reason. I looked at my CPU monitor and sure enough it was at 100% I had to kill firefox just to get text input back.

HTML5 support can't come fast enough.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Wait do Youtube videos play in HTML5 on Firefox for Mac?

 

[Boonoo]

Sorry flash sucks ass on Mac. Last night I was trying to run scrabble in firefox. I couldn't type any words in for some reason. I looked at my CPU monitor and sure enough it was at 100% I had to kill firefox just to get text input back.

HTML5 support can't come fast enough.

How will html5 help games? Is there some <game> tag that I don't know about?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

How will html5 help flash based games?

Flash based games will die out.

 

[Shawn128]

Wait do Youtube videos play in HTML5 on Firefox for Mac?

No, I believe Mozilla supports ogg in Firefox while youtube's HTML 5 offering is a different format.

Edit: whoops not sure about on mac, but I don't see why it would be any different.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

On another note how many of you will be buying an iPad day one?

 

[The_Inquisitor]

Flash based games will die out.

Pretty much this. If you are going to have a content delivery platform, performance should be near equivalent across all platforms. That just simply isn't the case.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

No, I believe Mozilla supports ogg in Firefox while youtube's HTML 5 offering is a different format.

Edit: whoops not sure about on mac, but I don't see why it would be any different.

So in short watching Youtube videos on Firefox now isn't an HTML5 experience?

I just wonder why Youtube videos get my computer so hot.

Well hotter than usual.

 

[The_Inquisitor]

So in short watching Youtube videos on Firefox now isn't an HTML5 experience?

I just wonder why Youtube videos get my computer so hot.

No it's not. If you switch over, you'll notice none of the videos will work. As it was said earlier, Firefox currently supports a different codec than Safari and Chrome support. So HTML5 is a no go on anything but Safari and Chrome atm.

 

[giga]

Who the hell cares about what consumers are capable of doing. I can if I want to.

That said, I disable flash the majority of the time. So whatever!

Indeed, you have that freedom and iPhone OS users don't. But again, I'm just making an industry analysis here from Mozilla and Apple's pov, so I'm using the general consumer base as a variable.

Anywho, those of you who are genuinely interested in what HTML 5 video is capable of: http://jilion.com/sublime/video

It's a 720P H.264 (2Mbit), so WebKit only at the moment. Just 10% cpu usage in a 2.2 C2D = bliss. (QT X is offloading it to the GPU)

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

How will html5 help games? Is there some <game> tag that I don't know about?

JavaScript, SVG, the canvas element.

Here: http://www.canvasdemos.com/

 

[mrkgoo]

On another note how many of you will be buying an iPad day one?

*raises hand*
If I'm still in the country.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

On another note how many of you will be buying an iPad day one?

I can't since I'm waiting on the 32GB 3G version in the UK. I'll make a trip to the Apple store to purchase it too, I like their cute little bags

 

[OnkelC]

*raises hand*

as soon as the UMTS data plans are revealed and reasonable enough.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

*raises hand*
If I'm still in the country.

It's amazing, the iPhone is the weed for Apple products. It's the gateway to Apple addiction lol. I only have an iPhone but wanting every product from Apple including the iPad (even with my concerns).

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Anywho, those of you who are genuinely interested in what HTML 5 video is capable of: http://jilion.com/sublime/video

This is awesome. I love the subtle animation as it goes full-browser.

 

[Technosteve]

On another note how many of you will be buying an iPad day one?

Holding out on gen 3 ipad =D

 

[Vennt]

Indeed, you have that freedom and iPhone OS users don't. But again, I'm just making an industry analysis here from Mozilla and Apple's pov, so I'm using the general consumer base as a variable.

Anywho, those of you who are genuinely interested in what HTML 5 video is capable of: http://jilion.com/sublime/video

It's a 720P H.264 (2Mbit), so WebKit only at the moment. Just 10% cpu usage in a 2.2 C2D = bliss. (QT X is offloading it to the GPU)

And here's one for Firefox users, works on iPhone/iPod Touch too:

http://camendesign.com/code/video_for_everybody

 

[Boonoo]

JavaScript, SVG, the canvas element.

Here: http://www.canvasdemos.com/

Oh! Neat.

I had forgotten about things like the Chrome Experiments as well.

 

[mrkgoo]

It's amazing, the iPhone is the weed for Apple products. It's the gateway to Apple addiction lol. I only have an iPhone but wanting every product from Apple including the iPad (even with my concerns).

My only REAL concern is not really a concern. I just wish it had a camera.

That's just for now. It's entirely possible I'll get one and struggle to find where it fits into my daily lifestyle.

YOu know, maybe that's why Apple like to announce/release on the same day (with most things) - so the effect of shiny new gets you to impulse buy.

I think a lot of people are going to see the appeal once they go see it. To me, one of the biggest appeals is a nice quality screen, and I understand the iPad is pretty premium in that regard.

 

[Schlep]

On another note how many of you will be buying an iPad day one?

Depends on which day. I'm moving on April 1 & 2 which is within a few days of when this is expected to release. Given that you probably mean, who is convinced enough to buy this as soon as possible, I'm in that camp. Within a week or two of release. :lol

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

This is awesome. I love the subtle animation as it goes full-browser.

Seriously it's like I'm not playing a video at all. This is amazing.

 

[mrkgoo]

Indeed, you have that freedom and iPhone OS users don't. But again, I'm just making an industry analysis here from Mozilla and Apple's pov, so I'm using the general consumer base as a variable.

Anywho, those of you who are genuinely interested in what HTML 5 video is capable of: http://jilion.com/sublime/video

It's a 720P H.264 (2Mbit), so WebKit only at the moment. Just 10% cpu usage in a 2.2 C2D = bliss. (QT X is offloading it to the GPU)

Oh wow. I didn't know that the player on the iPhone was just a separate QuickTime player. Obvious and makes sense. So "YouTube" app is just QuickTime player with YouTube search?

Anyway looks and runs well on my iPhone.

 

[Flek]

On another note how many of you will be buying an iPad day one?

iam in … twice actually :/

 

[Tobor]

On another note how many of you will be buying an iPad day one?

I haven't decided which model I'm getting yet, so day 1 might turn into month 1. But a purchase is definite. I need an e-reader, and the flexibility outweighs the e-ink/LCD factor.

 

[Kano on the Phone]

Anywho, those of you who are genuinely interested in what HTML 5 video is capable of: http://jilion.com/sublime/video

I still won't buy an iPad until it takes that and makes it slow and resource intensive.

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

Who will be getting 3G/size HDD?

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

On another note how many of you will be buying an iPad day one?

Depends on how quickly day one comes. If it's closer to the beginning/middle of march for the wi-fi version it can help me before the semester ends, if not I'll wait for a month or two and see how I feel about it then.

 

[deadhorse32]

No it's not. If you switch over, you'll notice none of the videos will work. As it was said earlier, Firefox currently supports a different codec than Safari and Chrome support. So HTML5 is a no go on anything but Safari and Chrome atm.

Yeah welcome to non-standard standard codec talking. HTML5 video tag is such a clusterfuck. :lol

edit : more info about HTML5 & codec http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/20...-tells-us-and-why-were-standing-with-the-web/

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

Who will be getting 3G/size HDD?

When I do get one, I don't think I will be getting the 3G model. I just refuse to pay another $30 to AT&T on top of the phone bill. Plus, most of the places I will be using it will have Wifi (home, friends, coffee shops?). Most likely it would be the 16/32 gig for me.