Stormhammer
Member
one of the few times you'll hear sense from icp, way back from '99
https://youtu.be/4NXVImgeDks?t=2m25s
https://youtu.be/4NXVImgeDks?t=2m25s
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Apple pulls everything w/ Confederate Flag from App Store including Civil War games
- Thread starter Interfectum
- Start date
First amendment, until some people don't like it.
Parapraxis
Member
You can say whatever you want, that doesn't mean you won't be called an idiot for it.
infiniteloop
Member
perfect
Discussions on social issues don't actually achieve anything if they don't inform and educate. In the absence of new information everyone just sticks to their original perspective, and there's never any progress. Why is that appealing, exactly?
Ignorance of historical fact isn't a compelling argument and the anti-intellectual streak in recent American history is an embarrassment.
The Manji is the swastika. I'm not sure why I have the need to repeat this statement. You are completely missing the point. This is all about context and point of view.
For the Indians the swastika has nothing to do with genocide, the same as the rebel flag has for some southerners. The same way the British flag has bad context in Ireland.
The same way with the American flag in the middle east.
You state that each symbol only means one thing, when it clearly does not. If some symbols are deemed offensive to certain cultures or people, why shouldn't you remove them all? Why only the items you don't like?
A Link to the Past
Banned
First Amendment doesn't protect hate speech, and while there were definitely games affected that shouldn't have been, ultimately society views the flag as being symbolic of hate.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Yeah actually. I've spent the last 25 years laughing long and hard at how Germany has to censor Nazi stuff from their game.
Horse blinders for society.... Protect yourself from the evil symbol kids!
It's primitive. Not in my society.
DrROBschiz
Member
Not a freedom of speech issue
First amendment doesn't apply to the App Store.
That's true. For me it's a problem of history, it is definitely a symbol of hate, but to abolish its existence is a slippery slope, in a historical context. This may be only the beginning.
I should also add that I'm Canadian and super ignorant to the amendments and their meanings.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
No it isn't.
It's self-censorship.
At the end of the day, does it matter whether it's the government or Apple censoring the content? The end result is the same to society, even if we can technically say "it was Apple's voluntary choice".
A Link to the Past
Banned
People in India view the Manji as not being related to genocide because the symbol wasn't created with the intention of supporting or otherwise associating with genocide.
People in the south view the Confederate Flag as not being related to hatred because they are ignorant.
Honestly, I expect that the worst of it already happened - Apple has already expressed that it doesn't plan to (or did not intend to) remove games with a historical context. At this point everything is probably going to get into "smoothing-out" territory.
DrROBschiz
Member
There arent any bans dude
All the flag takedowns are voluntary responses to criticism and public outcry
They should replace it with the National Confederate Flag and not the Battle Flag. The Battle Flag is the one under fire for being a symbol of hate and bigotry. Hardly anyone knows the National Confederate Flag even existed. So from a historical standpoint, games can use that to symbolize the Confederacy. This is the third version of the National Confederate Flag:
Doctor_Thomas
Member
The swastika was taken by the Nazis and turned into a symbol of hate because of association, the swastika is a benign symbol in Indian culture.
The Confederate flag was not a benign banner in any capacity. The mere idea that it is somehow the same meaning as the Indian swastika because of the Nazi swastika is horrendously misinformed.
DrROBschiz
Member
Of course it matters
One involves choice and one doesn't
Much like the difference in slavery and freedom
BlastProcessing
Member
That's not what the First Amendment even means. I can't put a flag up on your lawn and then yell "First Amendment" when you take it down.
Very lame move. Every state should remove the flag from their state house, stores like Walmart shouldn't be selling memorabilia celebrating the Confederacy, but merely including the flag in some capacity in your piece of media shouldn't be grounds for censorship. That's ridiculous. "This book would be readable, if only on pages 76-89 it didn't go into [insert thing people of whatever time found vulgar and filthy]. Remove it from the shelves." Come on. This is such a classic example of knee-jerk overreach.
Parapraxis
Member
This obsession with "banning muh free speech" is so prominent in so many anti-activist activists its crazy.
They cannot envision an act being done out of solidarity, empathy, caring or any other reason other than suppression. Suppression of peoples rights to hate I guess????
A Link to the Past
Banned
Apple has already affirmed that it does not intend to (or did not intend to) remove games with historical, contextual use of the flag.
and several games with the confederate flag are still on the app store.
I don't think Apple is doing anything wrong.
If confederate flags were banned to exist that'd be silly. But they're a pretty shitty symbol to many, many people and if Apple decides that they would prefer their app store to not cater to those people that's fine imo.
No one is telling people that they can't hang eight confederate flags in front of their house (I've totally seen this before lol) but Apple would prefer not to cater to them.
If confederate flags were banned to exist that'd be silly. But they're a pretty shitty symbol to many, many people and if Apple decides that they would prefer their app store to not cater to those people that's fine imo.
No one is telling people that they can't hang eight confederate flags in front of their house (I've totally seen this before lol) but Apple would prefer not to cater to them.
Parapraxis
Member
I can't believe it!
I totally can.
Idiots crying "they are trying to erase history!!! :`( " can suck it.
TheAssist
Member
As a german I get that symbols can represent things that we dont really want in our society. But also as a german I can safely say that education works much better than censorship ever will.
I still think that banning swastikas from everything game related is stupid if it appears within a context that makes sense and doesnt glorify crimes. I know what a goddamn swastika is, I know what the meaning behind it is, I know why it was used as a symbol during the third reich and I get what kind of people get off on that.
In the end you are only punishing the reasonable people.
I still think that banning swastikas from everything game related is stupid if it appears within a context that makes sense and doesnt glorify crimes. I know what a goddamn swastika is, I know what the meaning behind it is, I know why it was used as a symbol during the third reich and I get what kind of people get off on that.
In the end you are only punishing the reasonable people.
Unfortunately you cannot tell people how to feel about their heritage. For some people I know they will bluntly say that this flag has nothing to do with slavery. I cannot change that fact. I can disagree with it all they long, but I cannot prove that my feelings towards the subject is more valid than the other persons.
So my suggestion is to remove all symbols which all people are offended by. Why not?
Parapraxis
Member
Feelings on it?
Yeah the argument that it is a symbol of slavery is not really a feeling argument, more of a fact one, with literal verifiable sources to back up that assertion.
Oh, nice. Hopefully the kinks of this move are worked out soon.
autoduelist
Member
They should have the right to control their own marketplace.
However, when you're a dominant marketplace/forum/whatever, the decisions you make can have a drastic impact.
If Amazon decided to stop selling books on, say, some specific controversial issue, it would have an longterm impact. It's not quite censorship -- in fact, there's no good word for that sort of thing, and that's part of the problem and makes it hard to discuss. Does Amazon have the 'right' to pull all books on the civil war? Certainly. They're a storefront. But it would cause serious ramifications (for example, historians would be less likely to be able to get civil war books published since publishers wouldn't want to give up a market).
A Link to the Past
Banned
You could make that argument. If you did, I'd certainly ask you to explain it. If you were doing it with the intention of making a point of the Confederate Flag, I would also ask you if the thing you found offensive was also created with the intention of disparaging an entire race of people.
The manji being appropriated into a symbol of hate is different from people refusing to accept that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of hate. Even the smallest amount of effort to educate yourself on the history of the flag would explain to you why you are wrong.
you can because they are 100% wrong. Like absolutely, undeniable wrong and they're just being stubborn about it. There's no denying that the flag is a representation of support for slavery. People can feel how they want about it, but they would be wrong.
akidnamededdy
Banned
I've got no love for the rebel flag but maybe you should calm down a bit.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The issue is that this happens every time. People make a kneejerk reaction and talk about self-censorship and political correctness, only to find out that there was more to the story.
Parapraxis
Member
I wasn't claiming Apple was destroying history.
EDIT: See below, Apple is trying to take history away, i'll counter it by buying stuff that depicts a symbol the vast majority of the world views as racist, what a laugh.
Replace "confederate" with "ISIS" or "Nazi" and read what some people here are saying.
Woo-Fu
Banned
I don't see an ironclad connection between people proud of their ancestors who fought in a civil war and hating a particular race. Seems to be me you can be one without being the other.
Anyway, I'm going on to Amazon and will buy some Confederate memorabilia. It is our history, Apple shouldn't be trying to take it away.
As far as what society ultimately views something as society isn't a single entity of shared mind and belief.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
If people are so ill-informed about their heritage and the banners of it you absolutely can tell them how to "feel". Feelings are wholly irrelevent against history and facts.
Then the app store would be empty because anyone can be offended by anything. Unless there's a legitimate reason for the use of a Nazi swastika or Confederate flag or an IS banner or whatever, then their use is questionable, at best, and intented to offend, at worst.
It's strangely shortsighted to so latch onto this "private business making a choice, not government enforcing something" argument. Freedom of expression is hardly the only thing that requires both legal protections and a certain social fabric to thrive.
For them it is an emotional argument, not a rational one. Are you claiming that when a person uses that flag to represent his heritage he is racist? What if he says he is not?
The American flag (minus a few stars) was the flag under most slaves were kept, whipped and died under.
What is there to be proud of, though? that your ancestors were racist pieces of shit and you feel like that's something that should not only be remembered, but proudly celebrated?
yeah & they're lying.
They also had this song on their latest albums. Whoop whoop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa39v3WAAbY
This version of the Confederate Flag isn't even symbolic of the Confederacy. It is a Battle Flag they used. This flag returned during the Civil Rights movement by hate groups and those who opposed Civil Rights.
If this is all about heritage then get a version of the National Confederate Flag.
Parapraxis
Member
Yes, and too bad, he is.
Your last bit is intended to sidetrack probably because you are completely out of your depths here and can't actually talk about the issue at hand (confederate flag) because you keep getting whipped.
A Link to the Past
Banned
This is not a discussion about societal perception. There is no amount of revision that can occur that will change the fact that historically, the flag was created as a symbol of white supremacy, and was used as a symbol of white supremacy for many decades after the abolition of the Confederacy by racists.
Ok, I guess you know the person better than they know themselves.
It is not irrelevant at all, the whole purpose of this movement is to rid the country of symbolism of hate. I can think of no better place to start than the rebel flag, the British flag and the American flag. Then the fifa flag, the olympic flag. I mean, the list is going to get pretty lengthy.
Parapraxis
Member
Clearly there's no point in discussing this with you as you've ignored valid points and keep repeating yourself now. None of those flags are the same as the confederate flag.
You are derailing intentionally.
You cannot discuss the confederate flag, because you've lost the topic so hard already.
Lil'DigiOp
Member
But there is popular consensus. And what it seems like you can't deal with is that the battle flag after being created 154 years ago is now finally considered a symbol of hate in society.
Its sad that your ancestors are highly likely to have a problem with free black people being a social standard. That's simply because they fought for the confederacy. People can be proud over the fact that their ancestors died in war because America is so free you can rebel against government or whatever but its ignorant to not include race as a central disagreement to that conflict.
If your ancestors fought for the confederacy, that doesn't make you racist. But lets PLEASE stop acting like the confederacy wasn't full of fucking racists.
This isn't censorship, or political correctness, or sensitivity. Its common sense and moral decency.
Despite the emotional connection for people, theres obvious logic there too. You can't call people with confederate ancestors racists. They could be more likely but thats pure speculation and unfair to 150 years of progress in the social reform of this country. But if people want to act like their heritage wasn't damaging to the black community then that's ignorance. I sure any reasonable minded person would understand that.
The American flag carries that burden as well. How do Native Americans feel seeing that flag everywhere. Constant reminder of their position in American society. Fucked up part is, I think every ethnic population has had some stigma towards them in this country. Its the American society but at the very least we all bring something that is inherently "American" and shed of color boundaries a little bit. When it comes to the Confederacy, we played absolutely no part in that.
Nvm
Looks like Apple left some games/content. No idea if there were legitimate content taken down, that shouldn't have been. But the fact that some games + content is still there, means they didn't take a complete blanket approach to this. Some content was allowed to say if it fit within historical context.
Looks like Apple left some games/content. No idea if there were legitimate content taken down, that shouldn't have been. But the fact that some games + content is still there, means they didn't take a complete blanket approach to this. Some content was allowed to say if it fit within historical context.
Once again, there are still games with the confederate flag on the store. they said they were removing games that used it inappropriately or in a mean-spirited way. seems like that strategy game was a mistake.
