encephalon
Member
You seem to be conflating localization prospects with 3rd party support.
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Are third parties actively trying to fight Nintendo?
- Thread starter Metallix87
- Start date
You seem to be conflating localization prospects with 3rd party support.
I do not think Nintendo bears all the fault in this, but most of the blame has to be in their court. Simply because Sony and Microsoft seem to have absolutely no problems with third parties. When have you ever heard of third parties just flat out refusing to release a game for a Sony or MS console? Unless they are paid off exclusives, these games come out, we expect it. We are even almost expecting FIFA 14 to come out PS2, but not on Wii U.
A interesting research to answer this question, could be to find out what the 10 best selling third party games on Nintendo home consoles are, then comparing those numbers to PlayStation and Xbox top 10 best selling games. Other than Street Fighter 2 on SNES and Just Dance series on Wii, i cannot think of too many super successful third party games on Nintendo home consoles. Other than Gran Turismo, Uncharted and Halo, most of the PS and Xbox lists are populated with third party games
I would love to see that list, it would give us a better hint at how well these companies do with Nintendo.
Metallix87
Member
I'm not sure how the kiddie image came about, honestly. Goldeneye and Perfect Dark were major releases on the N64, as were Killer Instinct Gold and the Turok games. On Gamecube, Metroid Prime was definitely one of the major franchises to show what the system could do. Even on Wii, you had Red Steel and the Call of Duty games selling very well early on.
Outside of dropping Mario, Pokemon, and Kirby completely, what more could Nintendo do?
I lump them together because yes, supporting Japan is important, but the rest of the world needs third party support, as well.
Okay, you know what, say what you want, but dude stop bringing up EX Troopers. I can tell you that it's a fact that Capcom not bringing this game over has absolutely nothing to do with Nintendo's third-party relations or Capcom's views on the 3DS in the West. It's a PS3 game too. It's a darn good one, and it's a shame they're not bringing it over though.
w1gglyjones
Member
Do exactly what Iwata said. Have a third party game be a big hit for them on Wii U this holiday season. Straight out of the horse's mouth.
The other thing is follow up with announced games like Bayo2 and Xenowhatevs... with... SURPRISE... more games like that.
JordanN
Banned
I see this can be interpreted the other way around. It's Nintendo who for the past decades has been trying to enforce archaic trends against an evolving industry (you had two CEO's that cursed out online but guess what the industry uses now?).
Going with Nintendo meant you had to make deliberate sacrifices to your game. Why put up with that when there are competitors who have consoles that don't force you to cut content?
Whether the conspiracy theorists want to admit it or not, this is the correct answer. The companies are following the money as their market research dictates.
You have to cut content with every console release on every console
w1gglyjones
Member
I think the point is that no company is beyond bad decision making. Just because, on the whole, it doesn't make sense for a group of publishers to support the Wii or 3DS, doesn't mean that they don't make errors.
Regardless, I think Nintendo did fine with the Wii. Trying to match specs with PS360 was a daunting task for them financially, and it took a lot of guts to make their lateral move for the gamecube's replacement. So I don't blame them as much for the lack of computing parity.
The Wii U is different. So far, it really seems like they could have tried to match specs and for less money. And Wii U isn't really selling, not sure how much it will pick up this holiday and 2014. So I'd blame them more for Wii U specs than Wii.
JordanN
Banned
Not to the extent that Nintendo creates their consoles.
Call me when your maximum storage is only 64mb whereas there's a competitor that offers you 650mb or more.
Third parties hate they have no power over a Nintendo console as Nintendo cn survive on its own with all their big IP's.
Sony and Microsoft can not. So the third parties cannot do all their DLC//used games etc stuff and pursue their aims, influence the way the console will work. So yes, they fight Nintendo because they want to have power over all the millions Nintendo buyers, too.
It clearly showed all the promises of thirs parties last gen they would develope for Nintendo consoles if it only had similar power was nonsense. Look at EA etc..
Worst Nintendo can do is give up that independency.
Sony and Microsoft can not. So the third parties cannot do all their DLC//used games etc stuff and pursue their aims, influence the way the console will work. So yes, they fight Nintendo because they want to have power over all the millions Nintendo buyers, too.
It clearly showed all the promises of thirs parties last gen they would develope for Nintendo consoles if it only had similar power was nonsense. Look at EA etc..
Worst Nintendo can do is give up that independency.
Metallix87
Member
I'll say this much: I definitely think the Wii U's successor will HAVE to compete specs-wise in order to stand a chance, and I bet Iwata knows this now.
w1gglyjones
Member
Well, that's the past. And it doesn't speak to why decisions are being made today the way they are. And if someone is basing their decisions on cartridges from waaay back when... then that's pretty crazy.
Well, we're stuck discussing, playing, hating, loving Wii U for now. There is no way to really predict the next iterations of consoles 5-10 years out, tbh.
Computing power will be so cheap and accessible. If they do make a console then, specs will mean even less relative to dev resources, IMO. Achieving parity will be simpler.
w1gglyjones
Member
dp, sorry.
JordanN
Banned
Huh? You're missing the point.
That was an example of how Nintendo forces you to make compromises when the rest of the industry is against that.
Nintendo still forces developers to be behind the times because there's no way Wii U will be on equal footing with the PS4/XBO in both specs and features. Working with Nintendo still is working with outdated trends.
Metallix87
Member
Let's look at last gen. PS3 was a nightmare to develop for. 360 used a FAR inferior storage medium. Compromises had to be made. Guess what? Both still got support, and loads of it.
w1gglyjones
Member
Not sure how far you read, but I had already posted that I think the spec differences between PS4/Xbone and Wii U was a bad idea.
The idea of forcing people to make compromises is strange though. The business will attempt to put itself in a position to make my through strategic decision making. It just so happens that those decisions are not easy to make and clouded by lots of volatility.
littlebirdtoldme
Banned
ps3 came of of ps2. The most successful system in the history of gaming. A golden era for third parties.
adding another 6 months of dev time was a small entry price.
JordanN
Banned
PS3 being terrible to work for didn't stop it from being a next gen console in power.
360's DVD's were still a problem but not bad enough to make every game a complete disaster. But look at the successor. Microsoft abandoned DVD's because it just isn't worth it anymore.
That's an example of evolving with the industry that Nintendo deviates from.
I used to Wiki to get some sort of sales numbers of top 10 third party games list for Nintendo home consoles, this is spanning NES-SNES-N64-GameCube-Wii, and it is by no means 100% accurate as it is Wiki:
Tetris (8 million) NES
Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (7.09 million) (Wii)
Just Dance 2 (5 million) (Wii)
Just Dance (4.3 million) (Wii)
Street Fighter II Turbo (4.1 million) (SNES)
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (4 million) (NES)
Dragon Warrior III (3.8 million in Japan) (NES)
Dragon Quest VI: Realms of Reverie (3.2 million in Japan) (SNES)
Dragon Warrior IV (3.1 million in Japan) (NES)
Mario and Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games (2.4 million) (Wii)
If someone has better and more accurate data, please share. I am also unsure whether Tetris really is a first party Nintendo game or not, but whatever i included it anyway. Consider that the list is spanning exactly 30 years since the NES released in Japan in 83
Tetris (8 million) NES
Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (7.09 million) (Wii)
Just Dance 2 (5 million) (Wii)
Just Dance (4.3 million) (Wii)
Street Fighter II Turbo (4.1 million) (SNES)
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (4 million) (NES)
Dragon Warrior III (3.8 million in Japan) (NES)
Dragon Quest VI: Realms of Reverie (3.2 million in Japan) (SNES)
Dragon Warrior IV (3.1 million in Japan) (NES)
Mario and Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games (2.4 million) (Wii)
If someone has better and more accurate data, please share. I am also unsure whether Tetris really is a first party Nintendo game or not, but whatever i included it anyway. Consider that the list is spanning exactly 30 years since the NES released in Japan in 83
Palette Swap
Member
Okay, so you're backing the following statement
with this list:
Not exactly the poster child for a third party actively trying to fight Nintendo.
The only other vita games they're releasing in the West are FFX and FFX-2.
Bear in mind that with these 3 games, we're talking about 60% of their Vita production. Meanwhile, they localized 4 3DS games last year and are releasing Bravely Default in the West.
Again, where is Squeenix actively trying to fight Nintendo considering they are barely supporting Vita in the first place?
As for Level 5 as a whole, they've only released 2 Vita games (alongside PSP versions), none of which saw any release in the West. Again, I must ask: how is the lack of Level 5 localization a proof they're actively trying to fight Nintendo?
b) Are we REALLY even having a conversation where Capcom could prove a point about a third party favoring other publishers over Nintendo? Really ?
Your list has nothing to do with anyone fighting Nintendo.
I mean, there's a point to be made about Western publishers and Nintendo.
But the lack of some 3DS localizations is a completely separate issue. Hell, you should ask Nintendo about all the SE and Level 5 Games.
with this list:
Konami game. The same Konami who's released exactly 2 Vita games in the West, MGS HD collection and Silent Hill Book of Memories. Bear in mind the last Tri-Ace/Konami game for a Sony portable was Frontier Gate for PSP, which never got released in the West.
Not exactly the poster child for a third party actively trying to fight Nintendo.
Square Enix. The only Vita game they've released in the West is Army Corps of Hell.
The only other vita games they're releasing in the West are FFX and FFX-2.
Bear in mind that with these 3 games, we're talking about 60% of their Vita production. Meanwhile, they localized 4 3DS games last year and are releasing Bravely Default in the West.
Again, where is Squeenix actively trying to fight Nintendo considering they are barely supporting Vita in the first place?
Great example, considering there's a Vita and a PSP version. So, for Level 5's evil scheme to work, they'd have to have localized only the Sony versions. Except they obviously didn't.
Considering Brownie Brown is like Nintendo second party, I'd ask Nintendo about that.
Same here, really, Nintendo are the ones publishing IE in the west.
As for Level 5 as a whole, they've only released 2 Vita games (alongside PSP versions), none of which saw any release in the West. Again, I must ask: how is the lack of Level 5 localization a proof they're actively trying to fight Nintendo?
I'll give you that one. Except it stems from the fact that Tecmo-Koei is apparently releasing more Vita games than 3DS games in the first place.
Level 5. See above. Hell, this list mostly proves how much support 3DS has.
Except it was localized this year?
a) The PS3 version of this game wasn't released in the West either.
b) Are we REALLY even having a conversation where Capcom could prove a point about a third party favoring other publishers over Nintendo? Really ?
Your list has nothing to do with anyone fighting Nintendo.
I mean, there's a point to be made about Western publishers and Nintendo.
But the lack of some 3DS localizations is a completely separate issue. Hell, you should ask Nintendo about all the SE and Level 5 Games.
Metallix87
Member
Wii U uses discs based on Blu-Ray tech.
darkistheway
Member
LOL, you don't know what you are talking about.
w1gglyjones
Member
Not sure what the point of this sales info is. Rather than looking back at history, the main issues that I see third parties having with the Wii U is:
1) Perception that customer base uninterested in "core/mature" games
2) Hard to port multiplatform games due to hardware power gap
3) May or may not be a challenge to port multiplatform games due to devkit tools
Take DmC. That game has no business being a top seller for any platform. It didn't do all that great when released at the beginning of this year. So the question becomes, is it worth porting such a game, or Tomb Raider or Bioshock Infinite or GTA V to Wii U?
Obviously, those are PS360 games and companies will re-evaluate those decisions for the newer PS4/Xbone games. But their is some analysis and decision making involved, and it's not always that clear. Nintendo certainly isn't making it easy, though.
3DS is totally different since some of these companies never bothered to try to make a living off of the handheld market, and now see a growing trend of mobile devices as possibly lucrative. Not sure if that's a good thing or not, but indie devs might benefit for hand held ports, especially if gaf-poster and 3ds-dev Beril's results can be replicated.
D
Deleted member 125677
Unconfirmed Member
One of the main problem, as I see it, is that the Nintendo first party software is so strong and therefore tends to dominate sales on their consoles. I think a lot of third parties feel they can't compete with it in sales to be honest.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Persecution complex:The thread.
How can you not see what the point is? They never sold all that many copies of their games, thus did not make all that much money.
Compare that list with PSX, PS2, PS3 or 360 list and it is quite clear they make a ton more money on those consoles.
Infernal Monkey
Member
It came about because the N64's lineup was a barren wasteland for most of its life, but 'mature' games - both third and first party - like GoldenEye, Winback and Perfect Dark were still too few and far between. While the competition had countless Gun Shoot Kablamo games coming out from all angles at a steady rate, Nintendo was instead plodding along, hyping up their latest Mario Party sequel or Pokemon spin-off.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Don't forget the biggest reason. Bad sales of the system and software.
JordanN
Banned
That's one step forward while still taking two steps back.
Nintendo stills needs to fix the problem of why their systems are so bad for third parties when there are competitors who offer more friendly environments to work and sell their games on. Only then will they have finally caught up with the rest of the industry!
Apparently sales do not matter
It's probably because... you know, Nintendo actually makes popular franchises on a regular basis. I mean have you looked at Wiki's list of the best selling video game franchises? It has Mario, Pokemon, Wii, Legend of Zelda, and Donkey Kong all in the top 25. That isn't to knock Sony or MS since Gran Turismo and Halo are also on that list, nor is it weighted to older franchises since new stuff like Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed is also on that list, but the fact that the three best selling video game franchises are from Nintendo in the '80s (Mario), Nintendo in the '90s (Pokemon), and Nintendo from a few years back (Wii) has to say something about what consumers can expect when they buy a game with the Nintendo logo.
Basically, the biggest competitor for a third-party on a Nintendo platform is going to be Nintendo, because Nintendo is generally that good at making appealing video games, even though they will hit rough patches on occasion.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
Obviously Capcpom could ask Nintendo to foot the bill, so there's no simple answer to that question. Nintendo footed the bill for Bayo 2, so I doubt they're afraid of funding games that'll inevitably have poor to mediocre sales.
Metallix87
Member
I mean, given the myriad of reasons given here, Nintendo basically would have to:
1.) Go bleeding edge tech on the Wii U's successor, out-powering the PS5 and Xbone 2, while also ensuring the system is super-easy to develop for, especially compared to the competition.
2.) Stop making Mario, Pokemon, and Kirby games, along with any other kiddy titles.
3.) Make sure all of their first party releases aren't mega hits sales-wise.
4.) Fund the development of the vast majority of third party releases for the first few years of the system's life.
5.) Localize all Japanese third party releases themselves for Western audiences.
6.) Publicly apologize to each and every third party developer for what happened under Yamauchi's reign.
And even with all of that, it's possible that the situation would not be remedied.
w1gglyjones
Member
If you read my post, you would see that I specified that the "top sales" didn't matter.
What does a 5 million seller matter to a game like DmC that will never hit that mark? Expectations for a game like that would be lower and so the analysis would be based on a lower sales target. Not what Tetirs or Mario and Sonic Olympics can sell.
I know you posted a list of those best 3rd party sellers. But it's not a very relevant list. If DmC could sell 500k or 800k... then that would be a question worth asking... if such a target merits a port.
Right. I didn't think that needed to be spelled out for anyone. I'm simply talking about a non-failed system, i.e. the one Nintendo hopes Wii U will become :/
littlebirdtoldme
Banned
1. make the focus of the system 3rd parties, like xbox and playstation.
2. ensure that the system is easy to work with and on par with the competition.
3. make system selling games.
That is it.
Except i used numbers, even considering that Mario and Pokemon are popular than most if not all third party games, those numbers i listed are still very low, compared to what third party games do on Sony and Microsoft platforms.
Also what does it matter that Nintendo games sell a lot? This is a topic about third parties, why should they care that Mario sells?
it definitely does.
by all accounts nintendo were real assholes during the 80s and early 90s, and while nintendo is primarily to blame for the loss of japanese 3rd parties using their system as their primary platform, the complete mass exodus was not solely their fault.
it was also squaresofts'.
you need to remember that while the majority of japanese 3rd parties switched primary focus from n64 to psx, their complete abandonment of n64 development was due in no small part to squaresoft actively courting these publishers and convincing them to abandon nintendo for sony.
their former president (i believe his name was nao suzuki), in an interview with nikkei business in 2001 admitted as much, citing enix & DQ7 as a specific example.
I can't seem to find a link to that article anymore, but i'll keep trying if you have serious doubts about this claim.
Glass Rebel
Member
The premise of this thread is a bit silly but concerning the 3DS vs. Vita thing there are two reasons I think:
First of all, the Vita has become the go-to handheld for the japanophile (as in "otaku") gamer in the West, being a niche product and region free. Idea Factory, Gust, Koei... these will find a good home on Vita. Second, there is no Mario, Zelda, Pokémon on Vita to compete against.
And there's also the fact that the "important" 3DS titles not getting a localization are either by big but risk-averse companies like Square-Enix and Capcom. That's just my take.
First of all, the Vita has become the go-to handheld for the japanophile (as in "otaku") gamer in the West, being a niche product and region free. Idea Factory, Gust, Koei... these will find a good home on Vita. Second, there is no Mario, Zelda, Pokémon on Vita to compete against.
And there's also the fact that the "important" 3DS titles not getting a localization are either by big but risk-averse companies like Square-Enix and Capcom. That's just my take.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Are you purposely being this obtuse....here let me translate that for you:
1.) Meet next gen tech standars or surpass them with their next console.
2.) Make some mature first party titles or advertise some from third parties.
3.) Make sure their next console is a good environment for third parties.
4.) Don't make any stupid decisions that make the system hard for third parties to develop or port games to.
5.) Make their system region free.
6.) Apologise and try to mend relations with third parties.
D
Deleted member 125677
Unconfirmed Member
yeah, let's have three identical consoles, why not.
If DmC cannot get X sales on platforms that historically show third parties selling better, then what incentive does a publisher have to take a gamble and port these games to a Nintendo console in hopes that the stars will align and it will do similar numbers?
If you think top 10 is too small of a sample, then compare 100 best selling games on Nintendo consoles to PlayStation and Xbox, with Nintendo you will reach sub -1 million very fast, not the same with PlayStation in particular.
You cannot ignore sales, or brush them aside
w1gglyjones
Member
shh... we're setting up the final control group...
I'm not. I'm saying that looking at the "middle of the pack" sales is more important the the top-top sales. I'm disagreeing with your methodology, not with the idea of judging sales potential.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
PS5 and XB2 confirmed to be able to play nintendo games?
littlebirdtoldme
Banned
id rather play the next zelda on a ps4 like system than a wiiu like system.
I personally be happiest if there where only one system though. A gaming software standard, like dvd or bluray.
encephalon
Member
Is being "different" for the sake of being "different" some sort of virtue?
w1gglyjones
Member
or... join us... PC MASTER RACE
littlebirdtoldme
Banned
Spieler Eins
Member
They managed their teams so awfully, they were even overwhelmed by the (graphically) lacklustre looking Pikmin 3. Have fun waiting for a Zelda that maxes out PS4 tech, lol
Anyway, if they choose the right artstyle, the difference in power will not matter.
JordanN
Banned
Wii U is just about identical to the PS3 and 360. The only difference is it's a gen late.
If people can put up with that, I don't see what would make PS4/XBO any different.
Of course, that ship has sailed now but it's only detrimental Nintendo went with the wrong gen to be "identical".
If we're going by hindsight, it would be the same universe where Nintendo prepped themselves for HD. I also question why Zelda would take longer when PS3 to PS4 is not the same as PS2 to PS3 (Quantum Dream's Sorcerer demo was still made using PS3 workflow for reference).
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