ReadingRambo
Member
Again, it hasn't even occurred. We are speculating on what the rally will even look like based on some facebook posts.
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Armed group planning a "Draw Muhammad" contest outside Mosque
- Thread starter RiZ III
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Again, it hasn't even occurred. We are speculating on what the rally will even look like based on some facebook posts.
So replace armed troops with unarmed civillians at a church bake sale and you replace 'pissed off' with 'terrified'
Well yeah we're going by what the guy organizing the rally wants to do and we're saying it's horrible.
Yup. I'm sure drawing these pictures are protected as well. Doesn't change the fact that they are both actions taken deliberately to incite.
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
Time for some black dudes to start exercising their second amendment rights.
I'm willing to put down fifty bucks these drawings are all gonna be caricatures of Osama Bin Laden labelled "Muhammad", too.
They'd probably just want to make flag burning illegal (is it already?)
They would not want to start a shootout. I also don't know any Muslim that actually hates this country enough to do that though. And Muslims also wouldn't depict Jesus in a drawing either -- it's not just an issue with Muhammad. So even that doesn't work as an example.
ReadingRambo
Member
Let me be clear, if 200+ plus assholes show up with guns and drawings of the prophet at a mosque they are unmitigated assholes. However, does simply adding the drawings make their actions illegal? Because everything else (as crazy as it may be) is perfectly legal. That's what I'd like to discuss.
GoonerTRON
Banned
Even if it's just 1 guy with a high powered rifle it is still too much.
ReadingRambo
Member
So where's the line for you? Is it the gun or the drawing? Because they are different issues entirely.
Showing up anywhere armed with guns really should not be fucking legal but that's a different discussion.
Yes, it's legal. It just makes you human garbage.
It's not illegal but the government has to protect it's citizens at that moment by using the police force.
ReadingRambo
Member
It was posted earlier that the cops are on scene in force so that's happening at least.
Ok. Have at it
The police are there in case something happens. And I can't imagine that all those armed bikers are mentally stable.
Once again: if your main argument in defense of an action is "but it's legal!" then you're probably defending some repugnant shit.
Boy I know you love America and all but are you trying to get someone killed here
Q
qizah
Unconfirmed Member
There's a difference between free speech and hate speech. People tend to give others a free pass, but having the right to speak freely doesn't mean you're allowed to be bigoted.
Why is it acceptable for people to be given a pass for their obvious hate speech? The WBC do not exercise their right to free speech when they picket funerals and chant God hates Fags.
I do not understand the American view that people get a pass because of freedom of speech to say whatever offensive shit they want without it being called hate speech.
In this case, there's a difference between being smart about your satire and critique on extremists versus creating imagery that's overtly offensive. At this point, not only are you offending the extremists, you're making the moderates and even the progressives, like me, feeling marginalized and like shit.
So while they may be 'just a comic' to people many people -- many of those people have NOT grown up in a world where my culture has been mocked, and marginalized. Most of those people have NO IDEA what it's like growing up in a world where I'm watching the news about the latest terror threat in X country and hoping they're aren't brown. Like I live this shit everyday, and I love free speech, but when I see these drawings and offensive things all across the internet about my faith, my culture, yeah, it makes me feel shitty and it fucking sucks.
So while you enjoy that free speech, like I do, it's also good to know not to abuse it. I would never want a certain group to feel like I do because of their culture. Do what you want, live how you want, but don't be offensive for the sake of being offensive.
ReadingRambo
Member
That's not at all what I said. My concern is that some would seek to make a drawing illegal.
Care to explain?
Who said that?
GrizzleBoy
Banned
You know what I want to happen?
Can you imagine how AMAZING it would be if every Muslim going in and out of the mosque just ignored the living shit out of these guys and treated them like attention seeking kids?
Just walk right by them and not give a single fuck.
The "artists" would be all like " hey check me out, hey look at me, look at this picture. Now wtf are you gonna do about it huh?", and people just walk right by them.
There would be news cameras, protest signs, chanting, and nobody would care.
The "artists" would be so pissed they'd start yelling at random people walking by them about freedom and such and they'd just end up looking like even bigger douches.
Please, make it happen.
Can you imagine how AMAZING it would be if every Muslim going in and out of the mosque just ignored the living shit out of these guys and treated them like attention seeking kids?
Just walk right by them and not give a single fuck.
The "artists" would be all like " hey check me out, hey look at me, look at this picture. Now wtf are you gonna do about it huh?", and people just walk right by them.
There would be news cameras, protest signs, chanting, and nobody would care.
The "artists" would be so pissed they'd start yelling at random people walking by them about freedom and such and they'd just end up looking like even bigger douches.
Please, make it happen.
But what's the alternative? Make drawing religious cartoons illegal? I know most of GAF would happily strip the right to bear arms, but it'll never happen in the USA. I'd rather have the right of Freedom of Speech and to bears arms than not.
Not at all. It's unfortunate idiots will take their rights to the extreme end of things, but it is what it is.
Please show me my borderline racist bullshit.
We do have a right to be bigoted and we do have a right to express hateful or otherwise unpopular feelings. And protests in general are not supposed to be convenient for the ones being protested against nor should the participants be easily dismissed. I don't trust our government to decide what is right and acceptable speech.
My issue is that a lot of this Islamophobia is due to propaganda. These guys, however are within their rights to be jerks and to be wrong. The last thing we need is to make offensive pictures illegal. This is how the crazies react to perceived threats to their rights (imagine what would happen to actual attacks on their rights); meanwhile the government has been slowly removing our civil liberties and these assholes instead pretend like the Muslims are a threat to our freedom.
They'll certainly try. That's why the bigots are going out of their way to initiate some sort of conflict: by firstly holding it at the mosque, then by bringing guns and finally by encouraging the participants to make immflamatory remarks about muslim extremists in front of these normal believers. They could literally hold this contest anywhere else and not bring guns and it would still bring attention to the issue. Or if they really didn't want to be dishonest, they'd have an actual protest against ISIS and work with this community center.
The people near you where you are protesting don't have to be responsible for what you are protesting about. If they did the same thing at the park, it's not like that would make it more okay because the people that go to the park are somehow more responsible for these murders. It's not exactly like these radical Muslims congregate in a public place that is particularly known. Actually, if you were trying to blindly guess where a radical Muslim would be with absolutely zero information on them, I suppose a mosque would be the best blind guess. That doesn't mean there actually are any radical Muslims there, but where else are you going take a blind guess if what matters is doing the protest near radical Muslims?
RustyNails
Member
"We will make them hate freedom even more!"
Oppo
Member
Well I do see what you mean. And in my country this actually wouldn't fly at all. I should have been clearer before. IF these guys do exactly what they say - i.e. follow the letter of the statements put out, which are very carefully worded, then it's just a protest; the fact that they can openly carry guns is a sad side effect legally. Of course we all know what these biker assholes actually want, they want a fight, and the second they walk across that fine line they think they are adroitly skirting then I am absolutely with you; it's harassment or hate speech or both, at a minimum. I just don't include the very act of the protest itself in that definition, so I apologize for the hair splitting.
legacyzero
Banned
You should probably expand on that.
Islam as a whole isn't really a threat to our freedom isn't a threat to our freedom, but radicalists that murder over cartoons are. Look at how many people react in a "they shouldn't have drawn those cartoons" after people are murdered over them. More and more people have a sheepish "fine drawing Muhammad is just asking for trouble so you just shouldn't do it" attitude.
But freedom of speech doesn't mean that people can say and do whatever they want. And we have hundreds of years of experience showing that government is well within their rights to limit what free-speech means. You can't go into a bank and scream 'bomb'. You can't call someone up and threaten them. You can't stand outside a neighbors house and scream at 3 am. You can't go to a group of people and encourage them to riot.
There are tons of limits on free speech. I think that carrying a bunch of weapons, standing outside a place of worship, and doing the most offensive thing you can think of to piss off the people worshipping is probably similar to one of the examples I've already mentioned. Any one of these on their own may fly, but combined may be an issue. It has nothing to do with across-the-board restrictions of what people can draw.
nailbombxx
Member
Drawing Muhammad is okay (however it may be in poor taste and possibly racist), but showing up at outside of a mosque to do it just to mock and intimidate people WHILE armed is absolutely deplorable. It is no longer practicing the first amendment, it pretty damn close to terrorism. I know that if I was a Muslim attending that mosque, I would be quite frightened and persecuted to see a bunch of gun-toting people just outside "protesting" my religion. I dont believe that nothing good could come from this, and it could serve only to alienate the Muslim communities further and piss a bunch of them off.
Stop pretending this is a protest. There is no cause, no point to any of this. It's some xenophobes acting on their lizard brain. Strapped with guns.
These goons are closer to domestic terrorism than anything else.
Resident_UA
Member
And how does this "protest" address any of what you said? You think Muslims will be persuaded to be less radical if people with guns show up to protest their religion?
Being armed is perfectly legal. Standing outside of religious institution is perfectly legal. Drawing cartoons of Muhammad is perfectly legal. Nothing about combining those three things suddenly creates something illegal.
Which is why I wouldn't want to make the act or the protest illegal. But that's different from saying that your first amendment rights are under attack from Islam -- which is what these guys are doing. There needs to be a distinction between terrorists and the average person. That distinction is not happening here and it is dangerous for both the asshole bikers and the Muslims just trying to worship God. This is a very misguided protest and these guys know what they're doing.
And as I said earlier, yes, they are just drawing pictures. But it's also more than just a picture to both the Muslim community in the way they react to them and to the bikers that want to use it as a political message.
Like the hat?
Banned
I hope beyond hope that everyone who shows up for service just completely and totally ignores them. I'd love to see that on the news. Bunch of racist redneck assholes screaming about who knows what while a bunch of Muslims just quietly walk in to their mosque.
So where is this supposed ideal location to protest?
So how do you protest against radicalists? Do exactly what they want? The way I see it, you protest radicalism by showing radicalists that people are not going to bend to their will.
What's the point?
This is really dumb. Nothing will come of it. Just a load of ignorant angry people harassing others who just want to pray.
Way to make a point.
Just look at this interview with the organiser. He doesn't know shit (around 2.48 onwards).
https://youtu.be/vDc_6nioI7o?t=168
It always blows my mind the things people will defend on GAF. Like this is some kind of brilliant protest that will improve the world.
This is really dumb. Nothing will come of it. Just a load of ignorant angry people harassing others who just want to pray.
Way to make a point.
Just look at this interview with the organiser. He doesn't know shit (around 2.48 onwards).
https://youtu.be/vDc_6nioI7o?t=168
It always blows my mind the things people will defend on GAF. Like this is some kind of brilliant protest that will improve the world.
Idk; that's not really my concern. I even said earlier that protests aren't supposed to be easily dismissed and convenient. That doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I already explained that a better alternative would've been to not do it to antagonize the average muslim or to work with the community center to actually rally against ISIS. As it is, this protest is a farce meant to agitate rather than accomplish anything.
First of all, those who disagree with the bikers' provocative display should condemn them loudly.
And of course drawing cartoons like this shouldn't be made illegal. But this goes far beyond simply "drawing cartoons." They're deliberately harassing people at their place of worship, which is supposed to be a refuge.
You appear to be conflating the general population of this mosque with those who would kill because somebody drew a cartoon of Mohammed.Two Words said:
Screaming is perfectly legal. Standing outside at 3 am is perfectly legal. What if you combine those two?
Saying the word bomb is legal. Sitting on a plane is perfectly legal. What if you combine those two?
It's not so cut and dry. I don't think there has been a court case decided under these exact circumstances. All three combined could be considered incitement or something else all together.
If they are behave in a riot-like manner, then you'd have a point.
If they held their little contest in front of the mosque unarmed it would simply make them ignorant assholes.
Calling for participants to be armed transforms them from protesters, misguided and without cause as they may be, to a dangerous militia whose common denominator is hatred and xenophobia.
Their agenda is crystal clear and it's not one to defend.
Calling for participants to be armed transforms them from protesters, misguided and without cause as they may be, to a dangerous militia whose common denominator is hatred and xenophobia.
Their agenda is crystal clear and it's not one to defend.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
I would even say go one step above and do gestures of kindness and "show" them you are not a "terrorist". If it is a hot day go outside and leave bottles of water for them, leave them refreshments as an act of kindness, however ignore the comments thrown at you, they will hate you for it but imagine how it would look and how the other side will look, they will look stupid
Can you give a better location on where to protest radicalists? It's not like you can pick a spot where it is truly known that the people around the protest are radicalists.
The "free speech" part of this protest consists of drawing cartoons and wearing a Fuck Islam shirt. I don't want the govt to limit those things.
But I do agree with you. I'm not sure if the combo of everything this event will entail is an incitement of violence. It's definitely pushing the limits.
So?
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