Obama was a good liar. Hillary wasn't.
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Atlantic: Democrats Bet on a Populist Message to Win Back Congress
- Thread starter Saucycarpdog
- Start date
there was still a decline even amongst the college educated. putting a degree in everyones hand may sound good but it will just lead to devaluation in the long term.
We need to win, what we don't need to do is to continue to suck our own dicks.
I'm not arguing to put a degree in everyone's hand. (quite the opposite, that you can't do that and that we need to figure out how to cope w/ that fact.)
IrishNinja
Member
bernie has a history of not working with black caucuses back home & despite his history still comes up tone deaf on issues of racial justice at times. anecdotally, elements of his base are absolutely terrible at this as well.
like here's enough platitudes to be a bernie stump speech. is this pro union? promises to bring back jobs that aren't coming? are we talking basic income, healthcare or what? there's almost nothing here
i'd honestly they rather focus on healthcare, prison reform and things are doable/matter. who cares about college tuition of the jobs are drying up? moreover, "staying away" from something like immigration while ICE continues its overstepping just furthers the fact that dems aren't actually about riding for the vulnerable when it matters. it costs them so little to give a shit about DREAMers/etc here, and any fear of losing that xenophobic vote they never had is likewise silly.
Angelus Errare
Banned
I'll wait to see how black female voters and reps respond to this.
Extra Sauce
Member
A Better Tagline?
Are some of you seriously only planning to discuss the primaries again? It would be nice if we could have a thread that doesn't derail and gets locked.
Anyway I have doubts about the Democratic Party's sincerity, but I'll wait and see. I hope they do turn the ship around.
Anyway I have doubts about the Democratic Party's sincerity, but I'll wait and see. I hope they do turn the ship around.
I'm not fighting for UBI in 2018. No one's that out-of-touch with reality.
What I am fighting for is having a platform that people can actually be excited about. Ultimately, Trump has proven that people don't give a toss how utterly terrible the people they're electing are - all they care about is a message they feel represents their interests. Hillary ran on a platform that emphasized how terrible the other party is and how she would just be more of Obama, and that utterly failed us as people need something to get excited about, and the status quo is anything but exciting.
Get people worked up enough that they actually bother to vote, and then we can finally take steps towards addressing the reality we will find ourselves in when 2020 arrives - a reality in which automation will be far more visible and the effects will be felt by far more people thanks to the advent of self-driving vehicles and other visible examples of automation in public.
Proven to work to the GOP base, not as much with the Democrat base, so you have to be careful with that assumption. Since minorities make up the base, the primary-voting base anyway, they are a lot 'smarter' when it comes to pie-in-the-sky promises, another reason that Bernie ultimately lost
El_Tiguere
Member
Fixed that for you. They didn't come out, in large part because of the two shit choices presented to them. Considering Bernie supporters had most access to news online, many many young voters were soured by the DNC/Hillary shenanigans against Bernie. Of course you could expect young voters to have no passion for another self-dealing crook.
The future leader of the Democrats has to answer the following:
- who will you help in the health care debate? health insurers/pharmaceuticals or Americans.
- who will you help in the criminal justice debate? private prisons or Americans.
- who will you help in the climate change debate? big oil or humans.
- who will you help in foreign policy and endless wars? war racketeers or humans.
- who will you help on income/wealth inequality? wallstreet, corporations, and banks or Americans.
Etc. etc. etc. Bernie and progressives have chosen their side, but it is still murky with folks like the Clintons, Schumer, Feinstein, Pelosi, Booker, etc. etc. etc. There is no more room for murky in 2018.
more Clinton supporters backed McCain in '08 than Sanders supporters backed Trump in 2016
Definitely a huge worry, but it's unfortunately something that Dems have little control over, so it's not really something they can address. I'm not even sure they can do much on a state level, since I think most voting regulation has to actually come from the federal level.
El_Tiguere
Member
For anyone in this thread with 55 minutes to spare... Bernie's speech here is the winning speech against Republicans in 2018 and 2020.
Bernie Sanders' REVOLUTIONARY Speech @ the People's Summit 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf0KiVubDr8
Bernie Sanders' REVOLUTIONARY Speech @ the People's Summit 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf0KiVubDr8
Bounceounce
Member
I love when Hillary voters continue to white/genderwash Bernie's support base with asinine terminology while propping Hillary's base up as if it's any less fickle than anyone elses, especially when vitriol is still being thrown by both sides.
That's probably true, and another can of worms that will one day push us towards UBI as a source of a living wage.
This is almost the exact same title as Paul Ryan's "A Better Way." Not exactly stunningly original or inspiring.
The Democrats don't know how to tie the various interest groups that make up their party into some kind of harmonious whole. They have their work cut out for them.
They need to incorporate some kind of coherent vision for cultural unity into their platform.
I'm not optimistic.
The Democrats don't know how to tie the various interest groups that make up their party into some kind of harmonious whole. They have their work cut out for them.
They need to incorporate some kind of coherent vision for cultural unity into their platform.
I'm not optimistic.
Arguably no. Americans are not nearly educated enough at this current point in time. Ride the waves of populism or fall beneath the surface.
I'd love for it to happen, but if it does it's going to be a long, slow, arduous process that'll probably take generations to fix. Internet lobbying is incredibly strong. I think starting with getting it rebranded as a public utility should be the first goal to tackle. I'm just worried that promising someone all that stuff (like free broadband) and then getting into office and being unable to deliver would just lead to the voter becoming disenchanted. I know people hate incrementalism, but I think it's better than promising something that can't happen in the span of 4-6 years
So there's not one iota of social issues. All economic.
Of FUCKING COURSE!
Civil rights, LBTQ rights, and procreation rights are gonna be thrown under a bus. All to get the vote of racists.
Fucking hell. How could the Dems and the "economic justice warriors" be so stupid to think that this will work? Screwing over your base just to get a voting bloc more fickle than the youth bloc?
"Oh we have to compromise on some things like abortion. But not things that I want"
Of FUCKING COURSE!
Civil rights, LBTQ rights, and procreation rights are gonna be thrown under a bus. All to get the vote of racists.
Fucking hell. How could the Dems and the "economic justice warriors" be so stupid to think that this will work? Screwing over your base just to get a voting bloc more fickle than the youth bloc?
"Oh we have to compromise on some things like abortion. But not things that I want"
Uh, where does it say they're abandoning basic social issues? They're going to stay strong on those, but in terms of messaging, the economy is all idiotic swing voters give a shit about, so.
El_Tiguere
Member
YOURS is the mindset that has always baffled me here in NeoGAF. That Democrats need to address THE SINGLE UNIFYING theme that NO ONE in this country can escape (white, black, brown, Asian, etc.) is the best way to build coalitions. A focus on the pursuit of the American dream (economics) is intimately tied to social and racial justice. Neither of those issues are diminished by recognizing that Americans are being pushed to the brink on all sides because of bad economics of the last 40 years.
History.
Time has showed again and again, that the white people (specifically the working class) won't support economically liberal programs because they think it'll unfairly help minorities.
So for this to have even a chance of succeeding, the Democrats will have to water down an economic reform so that it excludes helping minorities (which will piss them off) or it won't get passed at all (which will piss economic progressives off)
Don't give me that.
Because even if you achieve economic justice. Minorities and women still won't be hired as much as a white male. Nor would receive as much pay as a white male. There would still be housing discrimination. If a woman is raped and Planned Parenthood is gone because "it's a social issue and part of the establishment lul" so she and the baby is fucked. You would still have to deal with unfair arrests of black and brown men. Whereas even if they get out, they're still screwed because of the stigma against ex-convicts And that's including the fact that white ex-convicts are still more likely to get a job than black guy with a clean record.
You say that this is all tied but you're the one looking at economic issues in a vacuum. Come on, now.
Yup. I said it in the other thread about Dems going against Monopolies and you had so many posters being negative for no good reason. This is the reason why Democrats can't win elections and change laws. Republicans come together almost lock step but Democrats and the left have to go this sounds good but..blah blah coporate shills..blah blah..nothing will change. And guess what? Nothing does change because the left's apathetic attitude towards the only party that represents your views even if they don't do everything you want doesn't turn people out to the polls.
Republicans don't have this problem.
It took long enough now watch them fuck this up. Run on the positive impact of government and take an anti Devos message. Go down whatever she has a platform and highlight how bullshit it is that a billionaire is essentially making the bootstraps argument to borrowers that dealt with a huge recession and lack of jobs for years.
They're not mentioning SJ issues for the same reason BLM stopped protesting after the election - the fact that if you have 99 economic issues and mention 1 minority issue, your Obama->Trump swing voter will only hear the 1 minority issue.
This sucks. But it also doesn't mean they're being abandoned, just that the messaging is going after these voters because soft Trump support/non-voters are what you need to flip in order to take back the house.
It's better to avoid talking about it then do it anyway once elected than to explicitly run on not doing it.
Gunblade47
Neo Member
In the face of the right basically selling their souls for power the left needs to provide a united front in elections leading to 2020.
Looking at this thread already shows that it will most likely not happen. The divide between Sanders and Clinton supporters seem to be too deep to actually have them function together in a single opposition party.
Looking at this thread already shows that it will most likely not happen. The divide between Sanders and Clinton supporters seem to be too deep to actually have them function together in a single opposition party.
Those voters are never coming back unless you tell them bold faced lies and say that their jobs are coming back! All the Dems will end up doing is depressing the minority from showing up. If voter suppression doesn't do that first.
So now we, the Democrats MOST RELIABLE voting blocks, have to take a backseat because a bunch of yuppie wannabe socialists cried that they're being ignored and that everything is a corporate shill? Congrats, you know a taste of what the colored folk have been going through for centuries.
Hasn't it already been proven that the working white class doesn't want this unless it's for them and them alone? Reconstruction. Social security. The New Deal. Clinton's welfare reform. Fucking Obamacare. Leftist programs that had to exclude minorities so that white people can love them.
Also if winning white working class is SOOOOO important, why does the economic justice warriors LOATHE Tim Kaine? He won governor because of the wwc. Yet the Bernie wing, instead of learning from Kaine, can't stand him.
In 2008, Hillary also tried to court the wwc in the primary. Like Bernie, she got her ass kicked by doing that. So why is she a "corporate shill who needs to jump in a fire" now?
So now we, the Democrats MOST RELIABLE voting blocks, have to take a backseat because a bunch of yuppie wannabe socialists cried that they're being ignored and that everything is a corporate shill? Congrats, you know a taste of what the colored folk have been going through for centuries.
Hasn't it already been proven that the working white class doesn't want this unless it's for them and them alone? Reconstruction. Social security. The New Deal. Clinton's welfare reform. Fucking Obamacare. Leftist programs that had to exclude minorities so that white people can love them.
Also if winning white working class is SOOOOO important, why does the economic justice warriors LOATHE Tim Kaine? He won governor because of the wwc. Yet the Bernie wing, instead of learning from Kaine, can't stand him.
In 2008, Hillary also tried to court the wwc in the primary. Like Bernie, she got her ass kicked by doing that. So why is she a "corporate shill who needs to jump in a fire" now?
The majority of Sanders supporters showed up to vote for her, myself included. Debate is healthy for the Democratic Party and it doesn't need to result in lasting hatred. I think the bigger issue is that Hillary lost some of the votes in critical states that Obama carried; those votes shifted to Trump instead. We need those voters back. This will clearly require a populist message of economic justice and opportunity.
Not saying to ditch social issues, those are important for sure, but we need a strong message on economic issues- and a credible salesman for that message, too.
It's this attitude that will get you no where.
Replacing a dictator on the right with a dictator on the left is not the solution.
SolarPowered
Member
I guess we won't find out if they'll put their money where their mouth is until the next D/D/D setup, but it's a start.
Yep, we as a people have lost the subtlety bone. Dumb that shit down please.
There is no evidence this is true in the current incarnation of the Democratic Party specifically. And if they won't support economically liberal programs because of racism, why do you think they'd support directly liberal social messages?
You aren't making any sense. The Democrats aren't going to suddenly say Blue Lives Matter or some shit. Please.
Welfare Reform
Obamacare
I was talking about white working class.
And here lies my problem with the economic justice crowd: I have to listen to your concern that the Democrats might become a complete slave to Wall Street. But you downplay my concern that the Democrats might court racists?
Adam_Vania
Banned
weak-ass slogan. "jobs" and "future" being words you can twist to mean just about anything.
also herein laws the fatal flaw of the modern Democratic party, they can't craft a message without comparing themselves to Republicans (hence the use of "better" here)
go back to the drawing board
also herein laws the fatal flaw of the modern Democratic party, they can't craft a message without comparing themselves to Republicans (hence the use of "better" here)
go back to the drawing board
How the fuck is advocating for higher wages and breaking up concentrated corporate power/monopolies an anti-science or anti-common sense position?
Honestly, the growing knee-jerk vitriol and negativity to the words "populism" and "left" on this forum is a little nuts. You've got one irritating Bernie purist in this thread with el_tiguere, while much of the first few pages are people preemptively shitting on "Bernie bros" stereotypes and lamenting that democrats would dare tack to the left on economics, as if that is somehow giving in to racists and sexists.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Well I mean that's the problem right? The current Democratic party probably wouldn't do that. The current Democratic Party is also not doing so hot at winning elections. They want to win more elections, by winning more voters. The question of what demands those new voters are going to make is super relevant, and the concern that one of them will be "economic progressivism for me, not for thee" is, I think, fair
gutter_trash
Banned
don't use the word:entitlements
instead, use the word: benefits.
instead, use the word: benefits.
Also, don't say taxes, instead "investments." That's what I've noticed here in Canada. People literally hate the word tax and yet you just spin the word and all of a sudden... clarity!
gutter_trash
Banned
Republicans have used euphamisms in the US for decades to soften their bullshit.
it is time for Democrats to do the same.
I think your Canadian example is about spending being re-branded as investment
gutter_trash
Banned
not this shit again,
Hillary had the most LEFT leaning platform in US history.
they sucked at communication not policy .
entremet
Member
Talk about hyperbole.
Should? Yes. Will? No. We're a climate of feels, not facts. Donald Trump getting a fanbase is proof of this.
People will be coddled with the lies of job restoration campaigns and sustainable retraining programs just a little while longer as both the left and right run for the futile goal of "full employment," ignoring all of the precarity and struggle the numbers often don't show as a qualitative reality for many.
2020 is the earliest you will hear of UBI on a main stage, if that. I actually expect us to enter a depression before people move on to it. America has a huge propaganda issue with the "dignity of work." It's one of the sickest ideas most people have in this country, for it hides how it's not inquired upon or challenged. Work is more than jobs, but jobs is all we emphasize. You get the paradoxical binds of coal miners needing jobs that kill them with this level of dogshit thinking.
Steve Mnuchin is not alone when he said "automation is not on our radar" and something that is "100 years away." A great deal of the left believe this shit too, something Barack Obama has warned them on. In his words, they are to "smarten up" about the problem. People are in office, right now, who have yet to smarten up and are just as stupid and wrong as the conservatives like Rick Santorum who deny this problem can even exist in their minds. Bernie Sanders, this figurehead of the "new left," is a perfect example of someone who has failed to do this, as has Hillary Clinton, who has no good reason to be doubtful about the problems, knowing the people around her who have said this is a bomb waiting to go off. "I'm not sure about UBI" is not a good answer when Alec Ross, someone she worked deeply with, has said this will become a global solution in the following decade, and its interest will only increase. He was her Senior Advisor to Innovation, for fucks sake.
To be fair, she did consider turning TANF to a UBI pool, but that's too small of a pool to even start with. A much better one, and this was proposed by Maya Rockeymoore, was to link it to Social Security. In her words...
"We have the infrastructure to do a basic income now and it is called the Social Security program. It's highly efficient. The administrative cost are less than .01 percent, which is better than you would get on the private market, and everybody has to have a Social Security card.
There is already a financing vehicle for how you actually input the funds into a trust fund that then goes back and gets paid out to workers. It would be nothing to basically design a system for basic income on top of the Social Security program."
Good luck getting the right to even consider this. The enemies of reason, and as they are showing, a threat to life in America. It doesn't matter how much the left, or even who in the left is leading the pack: the goal should be the eradication of a party from power who is worse than ISIS, which is the GOP. The GOP is a party of normalized terrorism disguised as just another team wanting "fairness and freedom" for people when in fact they are the party of tyranny, the party of death, and the party of division.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
Populism is shitty empty promises with no exceptions.
/Hugs the good bit of Europe that just rejected it
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