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Bayonetta is $20 at Bestbuy

This is going to sound like a retarded off topic question, but...

...is there any chance Bayonetta will ever come to PC? :<
 
Sorry for taking so long to respond. I disagree that Bayonetta has the best combat mechanics in any fighting/action game because of the systems it employees. Bayonetta places far more emphasis on style over substance. Its core mechanics have purposely been designed with accessibility over depth and balance. I’m not going to go into heavy discussion about: level design, pacing, enemy ai, bosses, camera, frame-rate, cutscenes, difficulty balance…etc. Unless you want me to.


Canceling Systems in Fighting/ Action games:

I want to start out by discussing the canceling systems in action/fighting games because the canceling system impacts the foundation of the entire combat system. I want to talk about the three main action games before Bayonetta came out. Devil May Cry, God of War, and Ninja Gaiden. All three of these games use their cancel systems differently and the cancel systems dictate how the games play and feel.

There are many different types of cancels, however there are two main categories they fall under. Complete cancels and partial cancels.

A complete cancel lets the player cancel their animation at any time. While a partial cancel only lets the player cancel their animation at a specific time.

God of War I believe uses complete cancels for the majority of its animations, while Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden use partial cancels. I’m going to mostly discuss God of War’s cancel system and how its relevant to the topic.


God of War’s Canceling System:

Out of all the actions above God of War has by far the most lenient cancel system. It uses complete cancels for the majority of its animations and allows the player to instantly cancel actions. In God of War every attack can be canceled at any time; the only exceptions that I can remember are these:

L1 + X button (Ground)
L1 + X button (Air)
L1 + Square (Ground)
L1 + Square (Air)
L1 + Triangle (Ground)
L1 + Triangle (Air)
L1 + Circle (Ground)
L1 + Circle (Air)
R1 (Ground)
R1 (Air)
R1 R1 R1 (dash attack)
Prsssing X during evasion (flip attack)
The triangle button launcher
Throwing (only a complete cancel in the original God of War)
The triangle button finishing attacks at the end of a combo.


How the Complete Cancel System effects the Combat System/ Mechanics:

What the complete cancel system does to the core combat mechanics is that it allows the player to play without thought or strategy and not be punished. You do not have to think about what attacks you do and when you do them. Because if you're ever in danger of being hit or countered you can instantly cancel into either a guard or evade. With exception to the abilities I listed above. Essentially almost every single move in God of War is completely safe and there is no risk to executing any move because it can be canceled instantly into a guard or evade.


Example:

Imagine you are playing checkers against an opponent. You move your checker piece and eventually it sinks into your head that you have just made an incredibly stupid move that will leave you wide open to your opponents next move. Your opponent picks up their checker piece and begins to double jump you to take advantage of your mistake, you scream REDO and move your piece back to where it previously was positioned. That is essentially what the complete cancel system is.


The complete cancel system makes the game easier to use and far more accessible to people at the expense of depth and strategy. It is designed for people who don't want to learn techniques, strategize and learn the concept of risk vs reward. The complete cancel system simplifies the entire foundation of the combat mechanics.

More Information about Canceling in Action/Fighting games:

Here’s an article on gamasutra that goes further into detail about cancel systems and their applications. From professional combat/systems designer Eric Williams.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/17215/Combat_Canceled_God_of_War__Action_Game_Design.php



Eric Williams (professional combat/systems designer) on God of War’s combat system/canceling system:

Eric Williams said:
God of War, unlike the other two games (he’s referring to DMC and NG), allows for many Pre-hit frame cancels, and incorporates several of the methods found in the other two games. The main difference is that it is not trying to be a hardcore game from either a technical or flashy point of view. It’s just smash-and-kill fun.

It still has some goodies tossed in under the hood, of course, for the fans of the other games that gave us a shot while they waited for the next installment of Ryu’s or Dante’s saga. The rules for canceling are all over the place - but for good reason. Our intended audience does not want to learn the techniques. They just want the game to play the way they think it should, because combat is not the only focus unlike the other two games.


Bayonetta’s Canceling System:


Hmmmm. Let me see, what type of cancel system does Bayonetta use again? Oh that’s right, the exact same one as God of War. However there is a difference between Bayonetta’s and God of War complete cancel system. Bayonetta’s use of the complete cancel is even more widespread then God of War’s cancel system. In Bayonetta as far as I’m aware everything is safe and completely cancelable with the exception of:

1.) descending afterburner kick (post frame cancel only)
2.) the kick button in mid air (post frame cancel only)
3.) The final wicked weave kick in the PPPPPK combo (post frame cancel only)
4.) The kick launcher (post frame cancel only)

To put it simply Bayonetta has simplified its use of complete canceling to an even further degree than God of War.

Bayonetta’s Canceling Thought Process:


Not only have all of the moves been made completely safe and cancelable (with exception to the above), but the entire canceling thought process has also been simplified as well. In God of War when you cancel to avoid taking damage from an enemy you are occasionally forced into Nitaku (two choice) situation. Depending on whether the enemies attack is blockable or unblockable you must make a decision between guarding or evading. If you choose wrong you could take damage. In Bayonetta there is one perfect answer to everything, evasion. So not only has the canceling system been simplified but the critical decision making process has been streamlined down to one answer as well.

Bayonetta’s Evasion System:

The canceling thought process has been simplified down to one perfect answer, but that’s not all. The one perfect answer, the evasion system, it too has been simplified. When you evade in GoW/DMC/NG you must not only time your evasion. But you must evade in the correct direction as well. Or you will be punished and take damage. In Bayonetta you don’t have to evade in the correct direction. You only have to time your evasion presses. So the core evasion system itself has been simplified.

Bayonetta’s Evasion system’s input timing:

The input timing for Bayonetta’s evasion system is even more lenient than other action games. The system has been simplified so that you do not have to evade in the correct direction of an attack due to the numerous invincible frames in the evade animation. You can flow right through enemy attacks. According to Bayonetta the Official Guide you must dodge within 5 frames of being hit to activate witch time. So by basic logic we know that the evasion animation has more than 5 frames of invincibility to it.

Because we all know you can dodge an attack, not get hit and not activate witch time (because you were not within the five frames of being hit). With this many invincibility frames added to the evade animation the timing is far easier than other action games.

Also unlike other action games, where there is a small recovery from each evade animation. Bayonetta simplifies the evade system further and allows the evade animation to be canceled with more evades up to four times in a row all while maintaining invincibility. During the fifth evade in a row the player is left vulnerable (when playing Bayonetta).

What this does to the system is that it allows players to mash the evade command without properly timing or thinking about their button presses and still remain invulnerable to incoming attacks. They can even reset the evade count by shooting, parrying, or attacking for a second, then they can continue to mash the evade command for more invincibility frames.

When we add in other abilities such as Bat Within the input timing to avoid damage is even more lenient. Not only can you avoid damage by mashing the evade command but even during the fifth evade you can still avoid damage during the vulnerability of the last evade.

Not to mention if you trigger bat within during mashing the evade button it resets the evade count and allows the player to evade four more times in rapid succession while maintaining invincibility. So with this added ability the input timing has been further streamlined. And the player can just guess with their evades hoping they activate bat within to reset their evade count so they are able to keep dodging.

When we throw in the Beast Within ability to the game, you can mash the evade button to cancel into beast within for a second (while remaining safe) and then instantly cancel back into evading which resets your evade count. Making you invulnerable without even needing to time your evades and without forcing the player into vulnerability with the fifth evasion flip or guessing with bat within.

As if the evasion system wasn’t already simplified enough we even have the completely broken Umbran Portal kick which can be looped for infinite invincibility frames. While evading you can hold the B (kick) button which starts the Umbran Portal Kick which is completely invincible and then cancel it into an evasion which is also invincible and just keeping looping them over and over again. The one system that the game utilizes to deal with all offensive threats is an unbalanced mess that can be completely exploited without any real thought or skill.

Bayonetta’s Parry System:

Bayonetta’s parry system is easily the most unbalanced parry system that I have seen. I have no idea what they were thinking when they put this mechanic into the game. The parry system has no risk vs reward concept behind it. The parry system is all reward and no skill. You don’t actually have to precisely time your parries or be punished as in other action games because inputting the parry command does not interfere with other commands the player inputs nor does it place the player in harms way. The player is at no risk and they are free to input the parry command as much as they want without any repercussions.

The games parry system is specifically designed to allow players to mash the parry command without thought or skill. You can just mash the parry command (left analog stick) repeatedly in the direction of your enemy while button mashing attacks and the parry will execute automatically and you will be completely safe and with complete frame advantage over your enemy. There is no penalty to mashing away at the parry button. Even God of War punishes the player for mashing the block button in an attempt to parry. But not Bayonetta, the system is designed for the user to mash away instead of actual thinking.


Bayonetta’s Evasion System + Parry System:

The evasion system is already completely unbalanced. But adding the unbalanced evasion system with the broken parry system turns the game into a mess. Because while you use the evasion system you can input parry commands at the exact same time so you are completely covered from being hit. And you can attack away mindlessly while mashing the parry command and win fights without even being hit. And you know those 4 moves I listed above as not being safe. Well with the parry system and the bat within ability they are now quite safe.


Dodge Offset:

This is probably the most interesting new mechanic in the game. You can store combo inputs as you hold the attack button down while evading. It slightly reminds me of buffering or guard buffering in Virtua Fighter. Dodge Offset allows the user to store up to four combo inputs for Bayonetta (Unless you reset the evade count).

What Dodge Offset does (on Alfheim challenges or Infinity Climax fights where you can not directly hit an enemy), is it makes the player think about the attacks their inputting. Of course you can instantly cancel out of an attack and be safe. However when you attempt to dodge offset a 5 hit combo string or higher the game forces the player to think about whether they should let their attack animation occur (so they can reset the evade count) or cancel into an evasion and possibly go over the evade limit exposing themselves.

There is a little risk vs reward concept going on in this very specific circumstance. If the player evade cancels their attack animation over 4 times without resetting the evade count then they are exposed to attacks and lose all the inputs they have previously stored. If the player lets an attack animation occur to reset the evade count at the wrong time then they are hit and lose the inputs they were storing. So the player has to be careful when offsetting a long combo string. However even if the player is at risk during both circumstances they can still avoid damage with the parry system and bat within ability. So the risk has been diluted quite a bit. But at least there is still a risk vs reward concept happening in this specific circumstance thanks to the dodge offset mechanic.

Beast Offset:

The dodge offset mechanic required skill to use when inputting long combo strings and attempting to remain safe from enemy attacks. It introduced a risk vs reward concept to the game and required good judgement to execute long combo strings safely. Then in chapter 5 they introduce the Beast offset and spit all over the best mechanic the game had to offer. By switching in between normal form and beast form Beast Offset allows the player to maintain combo inputs without any evade count limitations and evade limitations. It essentially allows the player to input combo strings without needing proper timing and judgement. The player does not need to remember how many times they evade canceled and whether or not their combo string input will be ruined by going over the evade count limit. The player is given infinite chances to hold combo inputs and evade cancels as long as they are not hit. So basically the best mechanic in the game has been dumbed down so the players don’t have to plan.

Bayonetta’s Combat Mechanics:

Practically all of Bayonetta’s combat mechanics has been watered down for accessibility and player empowerment at the expense of depth and balance. The very foundation the combat system the cancel system is designed for mindless playing without penalty. The witch time mechanic is designed for accessibility to give the player, free time to attack/experiment while the enemy sits there helplessly. The large list of moves/combos/attacks require no thought or skill to use because everything is completely safe and cancelable. The core canceling thought process has been streamlined down to one answer for all enemy attacks. With no two choice situations and decisions in canceling thought processes.


The evasion system is unbalanced and has multiple exploits that allow the player to remain invincible. The evasion system also has by far the most lenient evasion input timing in an action game, which is once again designed for accessibility. With added abilities Bat within, Beast within and Umbran Portal kick the incredibly lenient evasion system is further broken. The parry system has been completely unbalanced and it allows the user to mash the parry command in the enemy direction without thought, skill and penalty.

Even simple features such as locking on stuns enemies and stops them from attacking. Even jump canceling off enemies has been made easier than DMC due to the large amount of time Bayonetta stays in the air while jumping. Even Dodge offset is streamlined with the inclusion of Beast Offset which allows the player to store combo inputs while having infinite evades. The inclusion of the boring disconnected QTE’s that take control away from the player are far worse than other games QTE's.

Practically ever single combat mechanic in Bayonetta is a dumbed down streamlined mechanic from another game. The input timing for almost ever single mechanic has been made more lenient. Just time the input for the different mechanics and test the cancel system you will see how far the game has been simplified. Platinum Games were obviously attempting to go for a more mainstream audience with the way they designed the game’s mechanics. And it shows through the basic game design.

Bayonetta is a fun action game with cool stylish combos to string together and some of the enemies put up a nice fight. Ideal for posting flashy combo's on you tube. But best combat in any game ever? Definitely not. Not even the best designed combat in the action genre. Combat wise Bayonetta is a classic example of style over substance.
 
Uhhh, I'm not going to respond with an epic debate style post but I'll just say this:

The face value simplicity, ease, and versatility of the Evasion, and Canceling mechanics in Bayonetta are precisely WHY I think it has the best combat mechanics in its genre, period. I love how it feels, and is one of the only games where you look exactly as cool as the main character looks in the cutscenes.
 
a day's work from ColdSoup

I don't know if I can remember a post that is so long yet misses the point so very much.

Being able to cancel out of any attack doesn't dumb anything down; rather, it keeps me on my toes because I am able to react quickly to anything that comes my way, which is absolutely necessary when enemies can be as quick and ruthless as they are in Bayonetta. In many action games there is a problem where you are trying to evade an attack you can clearly see coming but nothing can be done because your character's animation HAS to finish. I understand about pacing your attacks in slower games like Demon's Souls, but in quick action games where enemies can move and attack very rapidly, not being able to cancel/dodge on command is a nuisance at best and a glaring oversight at worst.

Being able to evade whenever you want/need to evade isn't a "dumbing down" of anything. It creates a very fluid and responsive feel that is unmatched in other action games.

You can't evade mindlessly either. The evasion system errs on your side when it comes to some situations, which is preferred to doing all the right moves and still getting dinged for something that is out of my control. If you dodge one attack only to end up in an attack from another enemy, you will get hurt.

Also, using the Moon to parry requires relatively precise timing and choosing the correct direction that the attack is coming from. Enabling this ability fills up one of your accessory slots, so there is a tradeoff to using it.

All of these "outs" from damage that Bayonetta has are necessary because you take a lot more damage per hit than you do in most games, which makes sense considering you are a lithe female witch and not a burly he-man in bulky armor. (Hint: this is part of the balance you were looking for) The game also punishes you for taking damage by giving you less halos per verse/chapter and making healing items somewhat difficult to come by. Oh, and the game punishes you for using healing items (which don't heal that much anyways). The less damage you take, the quicker you can obtain upgrades/new items.

Platinum Games were trying to make the quickest, most responsive action game around and they succeeded. A lot of this is reflected in the decisions they made with character and game design. Just because they threw out some conventions of the genre to do so doesn't necessarily mean that they dumbed it down or took out all the balance.
 
Net_Wrecker said:
Uhhh, I'm not going to respond with an epic debate style post but I'll just say this:

The face value simplicity, ease, and versatility of the Evasion, and Canceling mechanics in Bayonetta are precisely WHY I think it has the best combat mechanics in its genre, period. I love how it feels, and is one of the only games where you look exactly as cool as the main character looks in the cutscenes.

I'm not surprised in the least that many people prefer Bayonetta's combat system. It places style over substance. And the game is aimed at a more mainstream demographic like God of War, only the systems have been simplified to a further degree.
 
You know one thing that I absolutely love about Bayonetta?

The difficulty levels. It's so cool that it doesn't just do the standard you're weaker, enemies are stronger thing; it totally changes up the enemies leaving you with less fodder to wade through and more big dudes to grapple with. It makes so much sense but most developers don't seem to think it's worth the effort.

It's nice.
 
Been considering picking this game up since it came out.. but I just know I won't ever get around to playing it. I'll wait until it's $5
 
The Crimson Kid said:
I don't know if I can remember a post that is so long yet misses the point so very much.

Being able to cancel out of any attack doesn't dumb anything down; rather, it keeps me on my toes because I am able to react quickly to anything that comes my way, which is absolutely necessary when enemies can be as quick and ruthless as they are in Bayonetta. In many action games there is a problem where you are trying to evade an attack you can clearly see coming but nothing can be done because your character's animation HAS to finish. I understand about pacing your attacks in slower games like Demon's Souls, but in quick action games where enemies can move and attack very rapidly, not being able to cancel/dodge on command is a nuisance at best and a glaring oversight at worst.

Being able to evade whenever you want/need to evade isn't a "dumbing down" of anything. It creates a very fluid and responsive feel that is unmatched in other action games.

You can't evade mindlessly either. The evasion system errs on your side when it comes to some situations, which is preferred to doing all the right moves and still getting dinged for something that is out of my control. If you dodge one attack only to end up in an attack from another enemy, you will get hurt.

Also, using the Moon to parry requires relatively precise timing and choosing the correct direction that the attack is coming from. Enabling this ability fills up one of your accessory slots, so there is a tradeoff to using it.

All of these "outs" from damage that Bayonetta has are necessary because you take a lot more damage per hit than you do in most games, which makes sense considering you are a lithe female witch and not a burly he-man in bulky armor. (Hint: this is part of the balance you were looking for) The game also punishes you for taking damage by giving you less halos per verse/chapter and making healing items somewhat difficult to come by. Oh, and the game punishes you for using healing items (which don't heal that much anyways). The less damage you take, the quicker you can obtain upgrades/new items.

Platinum Games were trying to make the quickest, most responsive action game around and they succeeded. A lot of this is reflected in the decisions they made with character and game design. Just because they threw out some conventions of the genre to do so doesn't necessarily mean that they dumbed it down or took out all the balance.

You really have no idea what you're talking about do you. Please do some research.

From Professional Combat Systems Designer Eric Williams.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/17215/Combat_Canceled_God_of_War__Action_Game_Design.php

Bayonetta's entire system has been dumbed down just like God of War. But to a further degree. The complete cancel system is designed for people that don't want to learn balance, risk vs reward, strategy and tactics. It's a dumbed down get out of jail free card. The evasion system is an unbalanced mess that factually can be exploited for infinite invincible frame loops.

The parry system timing is a complete mess and you can beat every Jeanne fight on any difficulty without even touching the evade button.
Bayonetta's balance is frankly down the shitter. You can cover your eyes and ignore all the information being given but it won't change the fact that Bayonetta's systems have been completely dumbed down.
 
Curufinwe said:
You gotta love someone who thinks chanting "dumbed down" over and over makes for a winning argument. :lol

Children on Gaf actually think they know how combat mechanics work when they don't. :lol
 
ColdSoup said:
You really have no idea what you're talking about do you. Please do some research.

From Professional Combat Systems Designer Eric Williams.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/17215/Combat_Canceled_God_of_War__Action_Game_Design.php

Junior links to an article written in February 2008 to prove another poster doesn't know what he's talking about in regards to Bayonetta. :lol

There's pure comedy gold in this thread. Shame almost no one will ever see it. Maybe you could post your newsletter on GameFAQS?
 
Cripes. Call me crazy for coming into this thread thinking I was about to get an awesome deal on an awesome game.
 
Curufinwe said:
Junior links to an article written in February 2008 to prove another poster doesn't know what he's talking about in regards to Bayonetta. :lol

There's pure comedy gold in this thread. Shame almost no one will ever see it.

Bayonetta uses the same cancel system as God of War. Only more simplified. Which effects the entire combat system. Member on Gaf has no reading comprehension and can not put the pieces together. So he tries to insult his way out an actually argument and fails. :lol
 
Fladam said:
Cripes. Call me crazy for coming into this thread thinking I was about to get an awesome deal on an awesome game.

Time for me to back out of this thread slowly. No sudden movements.
 
You claiming God of War and Bayonetta use exactly the same system does not make it true. Your entire argument is full of logical leaps and exaggerations amidst the constant stream of pejoratives.

Since you are the one who used "children" as an insult first, don't whine about insults now just because you've become a figure of fun.
 
badcrumble said:
Its true. Would you like me to give you an example? God of War 1 fighting the mini hydras. Their regular bite attacks are all blockable but their spinning bite is unblockable. You must make a decision between when you block and evade. Cool huh. :lol
 
Curufinwe said:
You claiming God of War and Bayonetta use exactly the same system does not make it true. Your entire argument is full of logical leaps and exaggerations amidst the constant stream of pejoratives.

Since you are the one who used "children" as an insult first, don't whine about insults now just because you've become a figure of fun.

Do you even know what a complete cancel is? Seriously do you even have any sort of clue? Don't believe me that Bayonetta and God of War use complete cancels for the majority of their animations? Go put in God of War and Bayonetta and test all the moves you can cancel. And when you can cancel them. You really should read the article if you even want an ounce of understanding of combat mechanics.

Its very apparent that many people on Gaf have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to action games.:lol
 
ColdSoup said:
Sorry for taking so long to respond. I disagree that Bayonetta has the best combat mechanics in any fighting/action game because of the systems it employees. Bayonetta places far more emphasis on style over substance. Its core mechanics have purposely been designed with accessibility over depth and balance. I’m not going to go into heavy discussion about: level design, pacing, enemy ai, bosses, camera, frame-rate, cutscenes, difficulty balance…etc. Unless you want me to.

[snip]
Bayonetta brings traditionally advanced techniques within the reach of the average player, and rewards those who use them well with its ranking system. Why do you find it so alarming for elite gamers no longer to have a corner on the most fun aspect of action games (building a sustained rhythmic flow of offensive and defensive techniques)? Your argument assumes that accessibility is bad, yet the great majority of GAFers who have posted their impressions of Bayonetta have found it to be the most enjoyable action game they've ever experienced precisely because it's so responsive, so smooth, so well balanced. The error you make, I think, is to prize exclusivity in a genre that has for so very long needed to become inclusive.
 
ColdSoup said:
Do you even know what a complete cancel is? Seriously do you even have any sort of clue? Don't believe me that Bayonetta and God of War use complete cancels for the majority of their animations? Go put in God of War and Bayonetta and test all the moves you can cancel. And when you can cancel them. You really should read the article if you even want an ounce of understanding of combat mechanics.

Its very apparent that many people on Gaf have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to action games.:lol

Are you seriously treating a single article by the guy who designed GOW's combat (love the game, but it's simple) as the encyclopedia of combat design?

Is your sole criteria for depth whether or not you can cancel moves?

Are you confusing difficulty with depth? Bayonetta's combat design allows for a skilled player who has put in the time to master the systems to become nearly invincible. Is that shallow design? Or is that a just reward for putting in the time to learn the game?

You need to lay out your assumptions explicitly if you want your treatise on combat design to be taken seriously.

And finally, if you give a shit, which game in the genre has "better" mechanics and why?
 
Monocle said:
Bayonetta brings traditionally advanced techniques within the reach of the average player, and rewards those who use them well with its ranking system. Why do you find it so alarming for elite gamers no longer to have a corner on the most fun aspect of action games (building a sustained rhythmic flow of offensive and defensive techniques)? Your argument assumes that accessibility is bad, yet the great majority of GAFers who have posted their impressions of Bayonetta have found it to be the most enjoyable action game they've ever experienced precisely because it's so responsive, so smooth, so well balanced. The error you make, I think, is to prize exclusivity in a genre that has for so very long needed to become inclusive.
Exactly, streamlining and accessibility does not necessarily equate to dumbing down. Civ V is supposed to have done an even better job at streamlining the UI and being more accessible than Civ Rev, but does that mean it'll be more "dumbed down"? Of course not - it'll still have a lot more depth than Civ Rev. But it's not due to being more accessible.
 
ColdSoup said:
Do you even know what a complete cancel is? Seriously do you even have any sort of clue? Don't believe me that Bayonetta and God of War use complete cancels for the majority of their animations? Go put in God of War and Bayonetta and test all the moves you can cancel. And when you can cancel them. You really should read the article if you even want an ounce of understanding of combat mechanics.

Its very apparent that many people on Gaf have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to action games.:lol

OK, that's all well and fine, but so what? Just because you don't have moves that lock you into an animation where you have to decide whether you want to take the risk of doing it beforehand doesn't mean the game is any less great. Kamiya obviously DIDN'T WANT to make that type of combat system. They were aiming for speed, offense even while playing defense, and yes, looking very stylish, and they accomplished that. Not every game has to have the same risk vs. reward mechanics.
 
Monocle said:
Bayonetta brings traditionally advanced techniques within the reach of the average player, and rewards those who use them well with its ranking system. Why do you find it so alarming for elite gamers no longer to have a corner on the most fun aspect of action games (building a sustained rhythmic flow of offensive and defensive techniques)? Your argument assumes that accessibility is bad, yet the great majority of GAFers who have posted their impressions of Bayonetta have found it to be the most enjoyable action game they've ever experienced precisely because it's so responsive, so smooth, so well balanced. The error you make, I think, is to prize exclusivity in a genre that has for so very long needed to become inclusive.

Yes, Bayonetta brings traditionally advanced techniques within the reach of the average player at the expense of combat depth and balance. Oh, its hardly alarming to me that the game was designed with accessiblity and style in mind over substance. What's alarming is the majority of gafs complete and utter ignorance on action game mechanics and what they do to the system. They claim something is the best or deepest and they have no idea what they are talking about. They say it feels good and nice but they don't have any understanding about how the system functions.

The majority of Gaf thinks Bayonetta is the best action game they experienced? Yeah, so whats your point. Most of the people in the action/adventure genre think God of War is the best action game ever. I don't care what they think when they don't even have a basic understanding of the systems.

Oh and Bayonetta is pretty poorly balanced. Its like Ninja Gaiden 2 levels of unbalance, only its in the players favor instead of their detriment.

I was explaining why Bayonetta's Combat system is not the best/deepest and most balanced. The only error I made was assuming that many people had a basic understanding of the action/fighting game mechanics. A mistake I hopefully won't make again.
 
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ColdSoup said:
Bayonetta uses the same cancel system as God of War. Only more simplified. Which effects the entire combat system. Member on Gaf has no reading comprehension and can not put the pieces together. So he tries to insult his way out an actually argument and fails. :lol

Isn't that what you just did to my post? It's not like you actually challenged or refuted anything I actually said.

Curufinwe said:
snip of totally relevant image (really)
Get that dumbed-down kiddie crap nonsense out of here, you imbecile! That game is all flash and story and no substance. All the S-Link system does is completely destroy the balance in your favor! All that having other characters take a hit for you or cure ailments does is let you never have to learn how to properly play and have the game save you whenever you get in trouble. I'm SOOOO tired of having to explain everything about RPGs to you cretins on GAF.

DEPTH!!! BALAAAAANCE!
 
hey_it's_that_dog said:
Are you seriously treating a single article by the guy who designed GOW's combat (love the game, but it's simple) as the encyclopedia of combat design?

Is your sole criteria for depth whether or not you can cancel moves?

Are you confusing difficulty with depth? Bayonetta's combat design allows for a skilled player who has put in the time to master the systems to become nearly invincible. Is that shallow design? Or is that a just reward for putting in the time to learn the game?

You need to lay out your assumptions explicitly if you want your treatise on combat design to be taken seriously.

And finally, if you give a shit, which game in the genre has "better" mechanics and why?

Do you even have a basic understanding of the article? Did you read why the combat designer made God of War the way it is? Do you know what a cancel system does to the combat system of a game?

The cancel system plays an extremely vital role in the games depth and strategy. If you can't even understand this basic principle you are completely lost.

Bayonetta's combat design allows for the user to play without offensive strategy and precision and not be punished(with exception to alfheim challenges where you can not hit the enemy without wicked weaves). Bayonetta's evasion system allows the user to mash the evade command up to four times without real thought or decent timing. Bayonetta's basic design allows for the player to do infinite invincible frame loops without thought or skill. Bayonetta's parry system allows for users to mash away endlessly without putting the user at risk.

Its not that hard to be invincible when the systems aren't balanced.
 
XiaNaphryz said:
Exactly, streamlining and accessibility does not necessarily equate to dumbing down. Civ V is supposed to have done an even better job at streamlining the UI and being more accessible than Civ Rev, but does that mean it'll be more "dumbed down"? Of course not - it'll still have a lot more depth than Civ Rev. But it's not due to being more accessible.

When I can beat Jeanne by mashing the parry command and the attack button an earn a perfect platinum on hard you can bet your ass the game is "dumbed down". :lol
 
I really would like some real proof to supplant this "theory gaming" going on.

I want to see a video where the player ONLY mashes dodge and never gets hit.

I would like to see your theory in practice. This is 2010, you have the means to give us that proof.
 
ColdSoup said:
When I can beat Jeanne by mashing the parry command and the attack button an earn a perfect platinum on hard you can bet your ass the game is "dumbed down". :lol
So let me get this straight. Your definition of a sophisticated game is one that's idiot proof, and so you're blaming Bayonetta for your own choice to play like a mentally challenged ape? If I drive five miles down a highway at 80 mph with my eyes closed and manage not to collide with someone, does that mean something is wrong with the traffic laws?
 
viewtiful_dru said:
I really would like some real proof to supplant this "theory gaming" going on.

I want to see a video where the player ONLY mashes dodge and never gets hit.

I would like to see your theory in practice. This is 2010, you have the means to give us that proof.
I'd especially like to see someone try that in infinite climax mode.
 
ColdSoup said:
Yes, Bayonetta brings traditionally advanced techniques within the reach of the average player at the expense of combat depth and balance. Oh, its hardly alarming to me that the game was designed with accessiblity and style in mind over substance. What's alarming is the majority of gafs complete and utter ignorance on action game mechanics and what they do to the system. They claim something is the best or deepest and they have no idea what they are talking about. They say it feels good and nice but they don't have any understanding about how the system functions.

The majority of Gaf thinks Bayonetta is the best action game they experienced? Yeah, so whats your point. Most of the people in the action/adventure genre think God of War is the best action game ever. I don't care what they think when they don't even have a basic understanding of the systems.

Oh and Bayonetta is pretty poorly balanced. Its like Ninja Gaiden 2 levels of unbalance, only its in the players favor instead of their detriment.

I was explaining why Bayonetta's Combat system is not the best/deepest and most balanced. The only error I made was assuming that many people had a basic understanding of the action/fighting game mechanics. A mistake I hopefully won't make again.
If the possession of thorough knowledge about something is necessary to enjoy that thing, only professional chefs would enjoy food, or accomplished composers music, or experienced authors books.

You flaunt your knowledge of cancel systems as though it were the gilded key to some exotic princess's chastity belt, but the reality is that most gamers wouldn't give two shits about the arcane mechanics of action games. If the way you enjoy this genre is to compile a thorough knowledge of its intricacies, then by all means enjoy your hobby. Your preferences become a problem when you promote them as the only way to appreciate action games. Protip: they're not, and your elitist generalizations aren't exactly strengthening your case. I would welcome specific examples that illustrate the flaws you perceive in Bayonetta, but as we both know, yours is the kind of argument that can't withstand critical scrutiny.
 
I would have bought this game but the PS3 version is broken I hear. So maybe instead of spending 60$ to support the dev, they could make a game that works properly?

Also I thought I'd add to the conversation by saying I like Havarti Cheese. Mmmm.
 
Tylahedras said:
I would have bought this game but the PS3 version is broken I hear. So maybe instead of spending 60$ to support the dev, they could make a game that works properly?

Also I thought I'd add to the conversation by saying I like Havarti Cheese. Mmmm.
PS3 version is playable post-patch.
 
ColdSoup said:
Do you even have a basic understanding of the article? Did you read why the combat designer made God of War the way it is? Do you know what a cancel system does to the combat system of a game?

The cancel system plays an extremely vital role in the games depth and strategy. If you can't even understand this basic principle you are completely lost.

Bayonetta's combat design allows for the user to play without offensive strategy and precision and not be punished(with exception to alfheim challenges where you can not hit the enemy without wicked weaves). Bayonetta's evasion system allows the user to mash the evade command up to four times without real thought or decent timing. Bayonetta's basic design allows for the player to do infinite invincible frame loops without thought or skill. Bayonetta's parry system allows for users to mash away endlessly without putting the user at risk.

Its not that hard to be invincible when the systems aren't balanced.

I actually did read that article, but it was two years ago, so I can't say I have it memorized. You didn't answer most of my questions, but thanks anyway.
 
The Crimson Kid said:
Isn't that what you just did to my post? It's not like you actually challenged or refuted anything I actually said.

And neither did you. Nor did you address half of what I said in my previous post. Taste good doesn't it. :lol



The Crimson Kid said:
I don't know if I can remember a post that is so long yet misses the point so very much.

Being able to cancel out of any attack doesn't dumb anything down; rather, it keeps me on my toes because I am able to react quickly to anything that comes my way, which is absolutely necessary when enemies can be as quick and ruthless as they are in Bayonetta. In many action games there is a problem where you are trying to evade an attack you can clearly see coming but nothing can be done because your character's animation HAS to finish.


I understand about pacing your attacks in slower games like Demon's Souls, but in quick action games where enemies can move and attack very rapidly, not being able to cancel/dodge on command is a nuisance at best and a glaring oversight at worst.

Being able to evade whenever you want/need to evade isn't a "dumbing down" of anything. It creates a very fluid and responsive feel that is unmatched in other action games.

You can't evade mindlessly either. The evasion system errs on your side when it comes to some situations, which is preferred to doing all the right moves and still getting dinged for something that is out of my control. If you dodge one attack only to end up in an attack from another enemy, you will get hurt.

Also, using the Moon to parry requires relatively precise timing and choosing the correct direction that the attack is coming from. Enabling this ability fills up one of your accessory slots, so there is a tradeoff to using it.

All of these "outs" from damage that Bayonetta has are necessary because you take a lot more damage per hit than you do in most games, which makes sense considering you are a lithe female witch and not a burly he-man in bulky armor. (Hint: this is part of the balance you were looking for)

The game also punishes you for taking damage by giving you less halos per verse/chapter and making healing items somewhat difficult to come by. Oh, and the game punishes you for using healing items (which don't heal that much anyways). The less damage you take, the quicker you can obtain upgrades/new items.

Platinum Games were trying to make the quickest, most responsive action game around and they succeeded. A lot of this is reflected in the decisions they made with character and game design. Just because they threw out some conventions of the genre to do so doesn't necessarily mean that they dumbed it down or took out all the balance.


Acutally being able to cancel out of any attack does dumb down the combat system. You do not have to think about what moves you do and when you do them. Everything is safe. You are allowed to play without thought and not be punished. If you make a stupid mistake or judgement you can just press the "safety" button at any time. Its a system designed for people who don't want to think, period. I even gave an example an you just looked at my post and went uh....to long. Nuh uh you so wrong. :lol

The Example:

Imagine you are playing checkers against an opponent. You move your checker piece and eventually it sinks into your head that you have just made an incredibly stupid move that will leave you wide open to your opponents next move. Your opponent picks up their checker piece and begins to double jump you to take advantage of your mistake, you scream REDO and move your piece back to where it previously was positioned. That is essentially what the complete cancel system is.

Its not a problem or glaring oversight in other action games when you can't pre-frame cancel. Do you know why its designed that way? It forces the player to think about every single move they make or they are forced to eat shit. :lol If you don't make stupid decisions you will not be punished. Its about being intelligent enough to make the right decisions at the right time.

When you can play without reprecussions to stupid decisions then it is dumbing down the system. Regardless of how much you like how it flows or responds. The professional designers know it. Look at Team Ninjas and DMC's design decisions. Look at God of War's designers acknowledging it. Go look up professional combat designer blogs and they will say the same thing. Even Kamiya's Devil May Cry used the system. But the so called "experts" on gaf think they know better. :lol


Actually you can evade without thought as long as you don't go over the 4 evade limit. Which can be done through evade count resets. You can mash the evade command and remain in invincible frames by canceling your evade with another evade. you obviously didn't fully read my other post and it shows.

The parry system does not require even close to precise timing because of the way it is designed. I already covered it in my previous post but you didn't read it. The parry command must be inputed in the correct direction within 5 frames of the attack. This is all according to the official guide book. What many people do not comprehend is that:

1.) The parry command does not interfere with other button presses and inputs.
2.) The parry command can be inputted as much as the player wants it to without any penalty.
3.) The parry command does not leave the player vulnerable no matter how many inputs the player does.

What this does to the system is that it allows players to mash the parry command in the direction of their enemy repeatedly without needing to precisely time your presses. And the player is instantly rewarded for mashing the parry command without thought. I should know, I've done it and got perfect platinum on Jeanne on Hard.

The level of damage that is dealt to Bayonetta through hits does not magically make the game balanced. Not with the numerous exploits that the game has. Did anyone actually read what I wrote? About the Umbran Witch Portal infinity invincibility loop. Or about evading into panther form (which has invincible frames) and back into evasion (more invincible frames. Or about how the player being able to evade and input parry commands at the exact same time to remain completely safe. Is anyone reading this?

They made the most responsive action game and lost the depth and balance. Doesn't really matter though. The majority of the action game audience can't tell the difference anyway. They just care about pretty set-pieces and explosions.
 
Doesn't mashing the parry command require that you have this constant awareness of where your opponent is at all times, not work against being attacked by multiple enemies at once, still require a decent (if not exact) amount of timing (unless you're going for perfect parries), prevent you from movie and break your current weave combo?

Not to mention that you seriously can't just spam dodge. Have you actually tried it? Spamming it without thought just gets you hit a lot, because you still have to time it with the attack indicators fairly well.
 
CadetMahoney said:
bayo > gow n dmc combined

Best argument in this thread.


Monocle said:
So let me get this straight. Your definition of a sophisticated game is one that's idiot proof, and so you're blaming Bayonetta for your own choice to play like a mentally challenged ape? If I drive five miles down a highway at 80 mph with my eyes closed and manage not to collide with someone, does that mean something is wrong with the traffic laws?

Have you actually played an action game in the last decade? :lol Not one of them has a parry system as ridiculously broken as Bayonetta's. Think I'm lying, go try it. Put in God of War and Devil May Cry 3, even Ninja Gaiden original (before they took down the hurricane packs). And experiment with them. Have fun mashing the parry command and being punished for stupidity. Those games seem to be idiot proof.

Bayonetta's system is the only one specifically designed for the mentally challenged apes in your description. :lol
 
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