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Best skill trees in games
- Thread starter Lightning_Roller
- Start date
Forerunner
Member
I enjoyed SWTOR skill trees from what I remembered. It's very similar to WoW though.
Frank Serpico
Banned
Bigger and more complex doesn't mean better
Yeah definitely. While that Path of Exile thing is very beautiful, I can't help but wonder if it really has a lot of depth or interplay or whether it's all just like "+.01% fire damage."
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
There are single nodes that add +12℅ to attack speed and other things that can completely change the way your build works. Diablo 3 attack speed can only be increased by gear (which PoE has too), each piece doing about that much max. If you were to create an all out attack speed character in PoE you could be doing like 12 attacks per second. Now apply that to any possibility in the game, and believe me there are a shitload. The game makes most arpg character progression look like child's play.
Random example of a crazy attack speed build, excuse the music: https://youtu.be/UQr9SvG_Epk?t=75
Renegade King
Member
I was big fan of the talent tree/ system that Kingdoms of Amalur had. I was really impressed how the game encouraged cross talent tree point spending by giving a sort of mix class benefits.
Also, I seem to remember sort of liking the talent tree for Dungeon Siege Two.
I think I'm just a sucker for talent trees that have synergies across other trees and skills.
Also, I seem to remember sort of liking the talent tree for Dungeon Siege Two.
I think I'm just a sucker for talent trees that have synergies across other trees and skills.
I think the point is that some people (Iike me) just don't really find the idea of "look how much you can min/max!" to be a satisfying endeavor in itself. The PoE passive tree, for me, just completely seems to nullify the joy of leveling. It's very meta and feels like it's in the way, like some kind of weird secondary progression without all the excitement of actually gaining something new. Some of the skills on that tree are very cool and interesting, but they are the minority.
It just doesn't really make a difference to me whether my +AS is coming from my gear or a skill tree, because the end result is the same: I am attacking faster. My experience with the tree is that it is an intentionally inelegant solution to customization for the sake of. I would describe it as wide, but not deep.
In that way, I feel like it's a perfect example of a skill tree that actually isn't very good. It exists to play off the actual depth PoE already has instead of to add to it. It's daunting for players unfamiliar with the genre. It rarely adds to the leveling experience itself in a genre where the joy of dinging is one of the greatest to be had. It's a system you interact with throughout your entire time with the game that is still overshadowed by other systems that PoE throws to the front, such as its cool and unique skill gems. The majority of it could be removed or reworked into a much simpler, alternative statistical progression with little mechanical impact on the game itself.
Yeah, it made leveling new characters completely useless.
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It complements the other systems and make actual quest rewards and levels more meaningful. It also allows developers to make more balanced decision, but making nods that combo together in very powerful way be harder to get and require sacrifices, it also gives the 'taste of class differentiation' without taking out of players ability to play any build with any class. Its very smart system, especially now after reworks. Just think how worse would be low level PVP or Racing without this skill tree.
And new jewel system additionally gives it new depth.
I agree its 'daunting for players unfamiliar with the genre', but why should every game be casual friendly?
I'll throw a vote in for the stat matrix from Kingdom Hearts Re:Coded.
As well as levelling up skills, you could also use 'cheats', such as altering Sora and enemies HP, and the amount of prizes enemies drop.
This and Final Fantasy X's sphere grid are my pics.
Like what?
Markitron
Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Aesthetically, I'd say Skyrim. For gameplay, I'd say Kotor. I'd get excited about unlocking stuff in that tree.
Personally I hate Borderland 2's skill tree, I picked Zero and his skill trees were absolutely pointless. I never felt like I was getting any better.
Personally I hate Borderland 2's skill tree, I picked Zero and his skill trees were absolutely pointless. I never felt like I was getting any better.
Like about 6-7 other hack and slash RPGs that do the same +skills item affix synergies.
... Most of them AFTER Diablo did it - Games like Torchlight and PoE actually pride themselves on having "People from the diablo 2 team on board".
Herbspiceguy
Member
WoW: TBC
I wanted to mention Path of Exile, but was beaten. Good to see it get the recognition it deserves.
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So how about Tron 2.0?
I always liked how the game allowed you to mix and match skills (and encouraged finding upgraded versions of skills).
To be honest, it's not exactly a skill tree though.
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So how about Tron 2.0?
I always liked how the game allowed you to mix and match skills (and encouraged finding upgraded versions of skills).
To be honest, it's not exactly a skill tree though.
I wouldn't call it a mess, I think the execution has not been great but thats no different than the old tree. In fact, the big problem with the new trees is that it suffers from the exact same problem the old trees had where choice is largely artificial since some talents are just plain better than others. But the goal of having those choices driven by talents and abilities that are much more interesting than "+1% critical strike" was a good direction to go.
That's not good design if some builds are better than others
Which is why I liked the shift in MoP. It gave the spec required abilities when you selected a spec and let you customize with cross-spec abilities from there (some with different uses depending on spec).
Troubled Bat
Member
I was going to say Tomb Raider (reboot) but couldn't find a proper image of it.
Amazing that people say WoWs skill tree is the best when this marvelous thing was around. Every line was useful. TKM/Med/CH represent!!!Star Wars Galaxies at it's prime was built around the skill tree(profession) system.
The game didn't have levels or classes so your character's base attributes stayed the same, but you could pick any combination of skills at any time and train in the areas you want your character to specialize in. Elite professions are from achieving a certain skill requirement, like for example reaching Unarmed IV in the Brawler starter profession would let you unlock the Teras Kasi Artist skilltree for use. Hybrid professions are from two or more skill tree requirements, such as getting skills from Scout and Marksmen to unlock the Bounty Hunter skilltree.
You also weren't locked into your choices either, at any time you could drop the smuggler life and just retrain to play music in a Cantina, or do both at the same time if you had the skillpoints to spare.
I always went Teras Kasi Master/Master Fencer for defense stacking which would gave me a tank like role while hunting, some of the Scout skill tree for movement bonuses while traversing steep terrain and to harvest resources from the creatures we hunt.
Example of SWG's skill tree.
That's a good point about the RO skill trees. You could build each character around several different approaches, and it produced variety. It entirely changed both the way you played your character and in some cases, it also affected what you were good at fighting against.
Too bad there were usually only one or two "viable" min-maxed builds, and the rest were mostly novelty type things, but the original idea was good, if not very well executed. The near-permanent nature of building your skills also meant that you had a very high chance of fucking over your character permanently the first time through because you weren't sure how your class worked.
It was also only really useful on private servers where resetting your skill/stat tree didn't cost an arm.
Except it is, with the level nodes being what gives it tiers. Just because you straighten it out, that doens't mean it was any less impressive of a tree.
Although FFX-International did a much better job of this because you could set your characters on whatever path you wanted from the start.
Secret World's skill tree is pretty good:
http://www.tosbase.com/tools/class-builder/
While not exactly skill tree related, Tree of Savior is looking like it has a pretty awesome class tree:
http://www.tosbase.com/tools/class-builder/
The shift in MoP is what made it worse. The complaint that pre MoP trees were all cookie cutter with only being widely considered the best is mostly false (kinda true during Cata- patently false in TBC)
In TBC as a shaman, I could respec to Ancient Wisdom if I received alot of gear with Intel, or I could respec into the enhancement tree to get a more effective water shield.
The shift in MoP just took away all of the small min-maxing incremental options you could use to play around with.
That was the worst skill tree ever. It actually locked crucial gameplay mechanics behind mundane collectathons.
Good skill trees allow you to customize your character, not make the game feel like half a game mechanically for 50% of the game.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
vicoakland
Member
In terms of gameplay, especially how it FELT to progress, I'd say vanilla Final Fantasy Tactics hands down. I played the game blind...man, those were the days...and the game just kept going in how far my characters progressed and customized and developed. And it really impacted the gameplay and the choices I made headed into battle.
As a side note, Stella Deus has a really rewarding skill tree / choices / weapons set, especially as you begin to figure out collaborative attacks. Only in retrospect do I realize just how good and rewarding that was. It's a better and deeper game than I though it was at the time.
For an alternate method, I think Mass Effect's semi-flexible scheme worked really well for me. I'd use the flexibility when I felt "hey, I have to go on this mission with these three team members for story reasons" and could flex my Shepard accordingly. Natural Doctrine has a similar kind of flexible thing, but I've yet to see it fully play out.
Finally, XCOM's skill tree / load out is so simple, but at the highest difficulty levels it really does matter how you choose the skill tree for each squad member. It's the most consequential skill tree set I've ever played.
As a side note, Stella Deus has a really rewarding skill tree / choices / weapons set, especially as you begin to figure out collaborative attacks. Only in retrospect do I realize just how good and rewarding that was. It's a better and deeper game than I though it was at the time.
For an alternate method, I think Mass Effect's semi-flexible scheme worked really well for me. I'd use the flexibility when I felt "hey, I have to go on this mission with these three team members for story reasons" and could flex my Shepard accordingly. Natural Doctrine has a similar kind of flexible thing, but I've yet to see it fully play out.
Finally, XCOM's skill tree / load out is so simple, but at the highest difficulty levels it really does matter how you choose the skill tree for each squad member. It's the most consequential skill tree set I've ever played.
Games before Diablo 2 did skill trees too, so what's Your point?
Thread is about the best skill trees and D2's one is ancient right now.
While we're at it, time for me to toot the Ryzom horn once again.
You can buy/earn "Skill building blocks" called Stanzas that you combine into skills. One kind of stanza provides "energy" (credit), others consume it to add some effect (like deal damage, enhance accuracy of the attack, add bleeding, etc), and you can't use more energy than you provide from a single source. There are energy sources for sacrificing health, stamina, etc. Using way less energy than you are consuming gives you a bonus.
It's a very neat system that allows for a very varied skillset.
Obviously, it ends up with many people running cookie cutter "optimized" designs from some website or guild FAQ, but you can at least in theory create a skillset that truly conforms to your playstyle.
You can buy/earn "Skill building blocks" called Stanzas that you combine into skills. One kind of stanza provides "energy" (credit), others consume it to add some effect (like deal damage, enhance accuracy of the attack, add bleeding, etc), and you can't use more energy than you provide from a single source. There are energy sources for sacrificing health, stamina, etc. Using way less energy than you are consuming gives you a bonus.
It's a very neat system that allows for a very varied skillset.
Obviously, it ends up with many people running cookie cutter "optimized" designs from some website or guild FAQ, but you can at least in theory create a skillset that truly conforms to your playstyle.
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
Behold Path of Exile's skill forest
Am glad someone posted this.
Yeah, I hate not having to level an identical character just so I can try out some different abilities, how dare the game save me from tedium!
Fallout-NL
Member
Borderlands 2
edit: Diablo 2's is ugly as sin
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Feels like home though.
Why would they? The best you could ever hope for is that a new game maybe conjures up memories of how fucking incredible Diablo 2 was. Nothing is ever going to top that game.
Did you guys not play D2 or something?
I played every last one of the clones, D3 included, and more or less nothing stood up. D3 wised up and has gone in a completely different direction.
PoE has interesting things, but better than D2 it ain't.
Troubled Bat
Member
Hey, I never said I loved the new Tomb Raider.
Its only tedium in D3, not in other games from the genre. Thats what You call shit design and Blizzard try to mitigate it currently by completely skipping leveling with OP items.
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I dunno, the Act 2 was terrible most of time due to one/two tile long corridor zones.
Act 3 was completely fucked by similar issues. Basically half of the campaign was annoying to play.
Act 1 was genius, but game had many flaws and today there are much better alternatives.
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Name one thing from gameplay perspective that is better in D2 than in PoE, because i cant think of one.