kingbean
Member
I think so too, but why necrobump such an old thread?
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Best sprite based PS1 or Saturn games??
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I think so too, but why necrobump such an old thread?
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Anything from Capcom and SNK on Saturn I guess. Not so much on PS1, usually lost tons of frames (or half the game as in x-men vs sf which was no longer a tag team game on PS1).
Also, Elevator Action Returns and Princess Crown.
I love chunky 3D 32bit games, they're not ugly.
Edit: oh, random necro...?
Also, Elevator Action Returns and Princess Crown.
I love chunky 3D 32bit games, they're not ugly.
Edit: oh, random necro...?
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#Phonepunk#
Banned
Saturn Bomberman not only has awesome sprite art and game play it has one of the best video game soundtracks i have ever heard. this is some smooth 90s lounge electro house or something. incredible stuff here. check out the song at 9:34
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johnnyKage5
Neo Member
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
Pretty much any of the Capcom fighting games on the Sega Saturn with the ram expansion.
93xfan
Banned
MrCunningham
Member
Really, every Sega Saturn game uses 2D sprites, even the 3D games. The Sega Saturn renders it's polygons as quads, which are basically just 2D sprites being manipulated in 3D. It is like an extension of Yu Suzki's/ Sega's super scaler hardware, but with the ability to billboard 2D sprites into 3D models. The Saturn's VPD2 chip can also render two 3D mode-7 like playing fields, which were used in a large number of 3D Saturn games.
The PS1, which renders it's 3D in triangles. the only Sega Saturn game to use triangles is Sonic R, where I believe Jon Burton wrote a version of the PS1 triangle renderer to run in software on the Sega Saturn for reflective 3D objects.
Dragon Force II is a great looking game for the system:
This game uses the mode 7 like 3D playing fields with up to 128 scaling/ 3D sprites on screen at once. This is a good example of a Saturn game that really could not be done as well on the PS1 because of the weird architecture of the Sega Saturn.
Though, as far as 2D Saturn games go, I also have to say Shadow over Mystara, which is part of the Dungeons & Dragons Collection. This one requires the Sega Saturn 4MB RAM cartridge.
Shit, I didn't notice that this thread is from 2014...
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Saturn quads are no less 3D than triangles on other systems of the era just because the methodology was different. There were early PC graphics cards that used quads, or were able to use quads, too. It's all just math calculations getting 2D stuff to appear as if they're 3D anyway. What does it matter if it's by conventional vertex coordinates or something else for the same effect. Wiki-ing Saturn specs was't my point anyway, I was talking about liking both Saturn and PS primitive 3D games cos the OP called them ugly, I happened to use Saturn games for the examples as it's my favorite.
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zenspider
Member
Dark Savior
It had those big, chunky arcade sprites and great hardware scaling. I also love the "sprite as texture" look, even today it looks so videogamey and tasty.
I was pretty impressed with Xenogears at the time [shrug]. Hell, the spritework and animation is still impressive to me for the resolution.
It had those big, chunky arcade sprites and great hardware scaling. I also love the "sprite as texture" look, even today it looks so videogamey and tasty.
I was pretty impressed with Xenogears at the time [shrug]. Hell, the spritework and animation is still impressive to me for the resolution.
MrCunningham
Member
No, you are right. Both machines are still rendering in "3D", but they are just using two different methoods. I just wanted to point out that the Saturn's 3D is still an extension of its 2D sprite capabilities, by taking sprites and applying verticies to them. But I still get your point, that the Saturn 3D has it's own unique look to it, that makes it quant. Honestly, I really do like the look of 3D games on the Saturn, as well. Though, as far as video graphics cards go, I think the only one that did quads was the Nvidia NV1, unless there were much more obscure 3D cards that did it too. But outside of that, I get what you are saying. The 3DO also does quads as well.
Hellblueboy
Member
Milano no Arubaito
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MrCunningham
Member
Not really the best looking 2D games of this generation, just some random ones for the PS1. 
Gunners Heaven (also released as Rapid Reload in the UK) is basically a Gunstar Heroes clone for the PS1:
Hermie Hopperhead - This is a pretty early PS1 release from 1995, developed by Yukes. It was only released in Japan. This game is a bit like Yoshi's Island.
Gunners Heaven (also released as Rapid Reload in the UK) is basically a Gunstar Heroes clone for the PS1:
Hermie Hopperhead - This is a pretty early PS1 release from 1995, developed by Yukes. It was only released in Japan. This game is a bit like Yoshi's Island.
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MrCunningham
Member
Spiritual Assassin Taromaru on the Sega Saturn. This game makes great use of 3D backgrounds and 2D sprites.
Three Dirty Dwarfs for the Saturn
Three Dirty Dwarfs for the Saturn
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
I have a lot of puzzle games on Saturn and their spritework holds up remarkably. During this era, devs seemed to like using large animated characters to spice up their puzzle games.
Hebereke's Popoitto (basically, Dr. Mario)
Sakura Wars Columns
Magical Drop III
Builder's Block / Landmaker on PS1 is a looker, too. The 3D mode is really fun as well, surprisingly.
---
and of course I can't go without mentioning at least one shmup:
Absurd amounts of sprite-scaling and detail in this one.
Hebereke's Popoitto (basically, Dr. Mario)
Sakura Wars Columns
Magical Drop III
Builder's Block / Landmaker on PS1 is a looker, too. The 3D mode is really fun as well, surprisingly.
---
and of course I can't go without mentioning at least one shmup:
Absurd amounts of sprite-scaling and detail in this one.
AcrosstheSea
Banned
I know OP said SOTN.....but i kinda wanna say SOTN again
MrCunningham
Member
Jumpung back to more PS1 games...
Strider 2. This game was released in 1999/ 2000, so it flew a bit under the radar. But the game mixes 2D sprites with 3D polygon backgrounds. It is a pretty underrated title, as well.
Skull Monkeys. The sequel to The Neverhood. This 2D platformer uses sprites and backgrounds made out of stop motion claymation. The game has a dark, but unique look.
Strider 2. This game was released in 1999/ 2000, so it flew a bit under the radar. But the game mixes 2D sprites with 3D polygon backgrounds. It is a pretty underrated title, as well.
Skull Monkeys. The sequel to The Neverhood. This 2D platformer uses sprites and backgrounds made out of stop motion claymation. The game has a dark, but unique look.
EightBit Man
Member
EightBit Man
Member
EightBit Man
Member
The system is very much misunderstood. It was quite a lot more powerful than the PlayStation, and it could also do 3D better than the aforementioned system if there was sufficient knowledge by the developers, and/or if the later development kits were used. "The Saturn cannot do transparencies", "The Saturn was mainly designed to do 2D games" (that's why the entire launch line-up consisted of 3D titles, right?), and myths like that have clouded people's honest look at the system.
It's sad that we have never seen the full potential of this underrated and misunderstood system. From the August 1996 issue of C&VG:
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
Nice magazine blurb!The system is very much misunderstood. It was quite a lot more powerful than the PlayStation, and it could also do 3D better than the aforementioned system if there was sufficient knowledge by the developers, and/or if the later development kits were used. "The Saturn cannot do transparencies", "The Saturn was mainly designed to do 2D games" (that's why the entire launch line-up consisted of 3D titles, right?), and myths like that have clouded people's honest look at the system.
It's sad that we have never seen the full potential of this underrated and misunderstood system. From the August 1996 issue of C&VG:
I think the runaway effect of a system performing poorly at retail was a huge part of it. The hype for the system was pretty immense even in the USA, but retailers must've been fed up with yet another SEGA kit on their shelves following the 32X and the SEGA CD.
I don't think consumers were fed up yet. Arcades were huge and Saturn had a lot of ports. It did better in Japan than the N64. It also had a huge library (in Japan) that was only surpassed by the PS1. I never saw negativity toward the Saturn in game magazines. All my friends thought it was cool (though only one of my schoolmates owned one).
In the West where arcades were weaker and retail was more spread out, I don't think SEGA had the necessary goodwill to push the system like they needed to, and it snowballed from there.
Freedom Gate Co.
Banned
Rayman is the most vibrant of the 2D games on each, and actually has animations and sprites in the middle and backgrounds as well instead of a static background and maybe a 3 frame repeat "water fall" in the front. Generally the best 2D games on the Sat/PS1 were 1994-1997 then my late 97 onward became highly pixelated, blurry, low frames, low color count garbage. Or they try to take a 3D image and "2dify it" creating uncanny valley.
EightBit Man
Member
Didn't they ruin their relationship with certain retailers because they were bent on releasing the system earlier? Meaning there wouldn't be enough systems to meet high demand. I believe KB Toys was one of them if I remember correctly. I don't necessarily believe that the SEGA CD and 32X are entirely to blame for the lack of the Saturn's success in the West. I do however think that SEGA of America messed up basically everything post-Genesis. Their push with the horrendous SEGA CD FMV games, the lack of localization of great Japanese games, the terrible output of SEGA of America's games (most of them in my opinion), ridiculous projects like the SEGA Pico, and the refusal to market the Saturn appropriately didn't help.
Then there were these articles in magazines like Next Generation, where Tom Kalinske said that there was absolutely nothing to worry about, and that the Saturn was doing well while the interviewer countered his arguments with the facts. That guy never really believed in the system, otherwise we would've seen a Genesis-like aggressiveness coming from SEGA of America. Slashing prices when necessary? Didn't happen. Pointing out the difference between the Saturn (with built-in memory and pack-in game) and PlayStation? Didn't happen.
The Saturn was handled a lot better in Japan where it indeed outsold the Nintendo 64. Think it was also the best-selling 32-Bit system until Final Fantasy VII was announced.
Freedom Gate Co.
Banned
The system is very much misunderstood. It was quite a lot more powerful than the PlayStation, and it could also do 3D better than the aforementioned system if there was sufficient knowledge by the developers, and/or if the later development kits were used. "The Saturn cannot do transparencies", "The Saturn was mainly designed to do 2D games" (that's why the entire launch line-up consisted of 3D titles, right?), and myths like that have clouded people's honest look at the system.
It's sad that we have never seen the full potential of this underrated and misunderstood system. From the August 1996 issue of C&VG:
No this is false, the Saturn has limitation in its design which capped 3D, this is widely known, and it was not more powerful than the PS1. There were some late false promotions that tried to make it seem like there was some hidden power but late tech demos clearly showed the opposite, and the scrapped 3DO M2 comparisons showed that even more because they used the PSX as a benchmark.
Freedom Gate Co.
Banned
Actually that happened before the Saturn launch, Sega was messing with contracts, and constantly throwing surprises at retailers and mismanaging stock volume. Saturn surprise launch just made it unsustainable, which makes sense given the limited floor space retailers that were not gaming stores had to work with.
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
They got too big for their britches. It was a case of genius game developers with bad business sense. Nintendo got arrogant during this same generation, too. They were cut from the same cloth as SEGA but they have been more business-savvy so they have fared better.
Could've been worse. Compared to the likes of Atari, Hudson Soft, and SNK, SEGA got off easy.
Freedom Gate Co.
Banned
How? Sega went bankrupt. Hudson outlasted all 3.
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
The output of the two companies is all I care about as a gamer.
Freedom Gate Co.
Banned
So you're saying Segas output after bankruptcy was worse than Hudsons?
DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
No, the opposite: I'm saying SEGA's output after bankruptcy is better than Hudson Soft's. Hudson had their shot with Turbographix and it fared even worse in the console market. Their influence on gaming dwindled with the arcades.
And this is why I made the statement "Compared to the likes of Atari, Hudson Soft, and SNK, SEGA got off easy."
Freedom Gate Co.
Banned
Turbo wasn't Hudson it was NEC. Hudson was doing better than Sega during Segas last years but of course output quality is subjective.
Atari didn't have output after bankruptcy, the new "Atari" is infogrames, well other than the casino company, but that was spun off infogrames.
SNK output is almost identitcal to what they had before bankruptcy outside yearly KOF's.
I think it'd be better to compare Sega to companies like Midway/netherealm, or merged companies like Namco then these guys. That actually arguably makes Sega seem worse.
MrCunningham
Member
Rayman is even more interesting, given that it is a western made game (well, made in France?). The few Western platformers/ 2D games at the time were all going the darker and grittier route or had to have glossy per-rendered looking graphics. Western devs were not interested in making hand drawn colourful artwork at that point in time. It's like western developers were not really interested in making colourful games.
Super Tempo on the Sega Saturn comes close to Rayman:
So does Keio Yugekitei Katsugekihen on the Saturn:
But then again, both these games were exclusive to the Japanese market. Western publishers would never consider releasing stuff like this in the western markets. Plus these games were deemed to "japanes'y for their own good by western publishers.
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GAMETA
Banned
Where's our BoF Remaster Collection? WHERE IS IT?
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DunDunDunpachi
Patient MembeR
EightBit Man
Member
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I love Saturn but I doubt it was better than PS in 3D handling, overall at least, not just this or that useful for certain instances aspect. Which doesn't mean it was far behind or that its games looked universally worse. Ports like Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, Quake, Duke Nukem 3D, WIpeout 2097 and more show it was absolutely fine. Also titles like Powerslave, the Panzer Dragoon series etc. It could have gotten many more multiplatform games had it been more popular, enough to ensure their sales. Shenmue is impressive but I'd hardly call it playable with that fps and it never happened.
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Freedom Gate Co.
Banned
This doesn't disprove anything I said.
The design of the saturn gave it limitations on what it could do with 3D. Shenmue as on the dreamcast, even with those graphics, wouldn't run on the saturn because it would have to make too much work for the world and characters, and DC shenmue already had its own issues with draw distance and consistent textures. The Saturn needed a controlled limited space and inconsistent graphic just to run the demo.
DisguiseArrsick
Member
I remember this. CVG in the mid 90's was the GOAT. I loved the enthusiasm they had. (Which sometimes led to hyperbole)The system is very much misunderstood. It was quite a lot more powerful than the PlayStation, and it could also do 3D better than the aforementioned system if there was sufficient knowledge by the developers, and/or if the later development kits were used. "The Saturn cannot do transparencies", "The Saturn was mainly designed to do 2D games" (that's why the entire launch line-up consisted of 3D titles, right?), and myths like that have clouded people's honest look at the system.
It's sad that we have never seen the full potential of this underrated and misunderstood system. From the August 1996 issue of C&VG:
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I mean, he didn't try to say Saturn could do Dreamcast graphics, lol. Nothing but Dreamcast and arcade machines could at the time, never mind a last generation system. And all systems had limitations and issues manifesting in frame rate, visual clarity, draw distance, resolution, color output, polygon/texture warping/filtering etc. It was up to the game design to hide it all as well as it could be hidden, which wasn't always possible depending on the vision of the creators and the demands of the given scene. Sometimes shit just looked broken in the best of games, stills can look messy.
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EightBit Man
Member
Then why is it that Virtua Fighter 2 runs at 60fps at high resolution? Not saying it was easy to develop for. Even SEGA struggled in the beginning (see Virtua Fighter 1 for example). But this says nothing about it's ability to do 3D, especially in a good programming environment.
The point is; is there anything that comes close to this kind of graphical fidelity on PlayStation? I owned a PlayStation too, so don't think I'm a fanboy or something like that.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Tekken 3 looks overall shinier though. It sacrifices 3D backgrounds, sure, but it also has more modern character modeling so they all look like they have a skin and all limbs are joined with the body and what not, vs VF2's separate chunks stuck together by the animation. And flashy lighting hit effects, heh, I could do without that stuff myself. Dead or Alive on Saturn used the same style of single piece modeling as Tekken 3 though, I think (I'm pretty sure but I haven't looked at it recently) and it looked quite great itself. Really, the systems were super close in capabilities if you ask me and even if some ports demanded certain sacrifices that's just because they catered to this or that other system first, with infinite dev time and the necessary knowledge they'd have probably improved in other ways that took advantage of each system's specialties instead. That happens today too. And it was up to the skill, art and passion of the given dev to make something great that would have been great no matter what system it was on rather than something that one could say looks objectively worse than this or that. MGS looks great, Panzer Dragoon Saga looks great, Armored Core looks great, GunGriffon looks great, Powerslave looks great, Alien Resurrection looks great, etc. People bashing this or that system back then were shills, they were really close and any dev could work wonders with either if they were given the chance and had the passion for it.
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Freedom Gate Co.
Banned
PSX has fighting games running at 60 as well with more going on in the background, more frames, and better textures.
Again the Saturn is not bad, but it's basically a stronger 3DO because it has a lot of the same design flaws on a chip level and the PSX has a completely different general graphical set-up for power.
The Saturn is a good machine, but it's not "more powerful" than the PSX. When you start adding more 3D and effect on screen the Saturn starts breaking apart, and that doubles when you start increasing the playfield and start having more open games, the Saturn would have many issues running Spyro 1 for example, as it's drawing is bad, it would require to many 3D resources to keep the same draw distance and object count, they would have to cut the frame rate, and remove detail from object. They would also have to reduce objects in total.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I dunno about more going on in the background, again, Tekken 3 sacrificed 3D backgrounds completely. VF2's backgrounds weren't as detailed as the arcade version's but they were clearly more complex than Tekken 3 on PS1.
Tobal is 3D/60fps but has next to no textures.
Bloody Roar does everything at once I guess but looks quite a bit chunkier, probably lower polycount characters.
Soul Blade does that too but I don't think it looks better than any of these other games, it's quite chunky though I loved it (and the in-engine intro and outro for all characters was rad, wish they had kept that for Soul Calibur).
Etc.
Each game did its own thing, it's hard to compare 1:1 except with actual ports, like DoA which looks good on both systems.
Really what harmed Saturn was its lack of western appeal, so it stopped getting games while PS saw benefit from additional game dev evolution and experience by all kinds of different companies that never made more Saturn games.
Like said, Tekken 3 used a more modern method of modeling than VF2, but was also a game that came years later (in the arcades first). Of course SEGA weren't gonna totally remake VF2 just for the Saturn port with all new character models to match.
Tobal is 3D/60fps but has next to no textures.
Bloody Roar does everything at once I guess but looks quite a bit chunkier, probably lower polycount characters.
Soul Blade does that too but I don't think it looks better than any of these other games, it's quite chunky though I loved it (and the in-engine intro and outro for all characters was rad, wish they had kept that for Soul Calibur).
Etc.
Each game did its own thing, it's hard to compare 1:1 except with actual ports, like DoA which looks good on both systems.
Really what harmed Saturn was its lack of western appeal, so it stopped getting games while PS saw benefit from additional game dev evolution and experience by all kinds of different companies that never made more Saturn games.
Like said, Tekken 3 used a more modern method of modeling than VF2, but was also a game that came years later (in the arcades first). Of course SEGA weren't gonna totally remake VF2 just for the Saturn port with all new character models to match.
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EightBit Man
Member
Tekken 3 was released quite later though. The contemporary (rival) title at the time was Tekken 2. Both were great fighting games, but Virtua Fighter 2 was technically more impressive I think. But I agree with your main outline, developers basically getting everything out of a system.
The Saturn is more powerful if you look at the specs. I could also name PlayStation games that run worse than Saturn games with added effects. It all boils down to exploiting the hardware to the fullest. The Saturn got a bad rep because of (mostly) inexperienced Western developers, who didn't know what to do with the system. It was designed very much like arcade architecture. When you have inexperienced programmers on board utilizing a single processor, then of course you can forget about things like transparencies or other effects.
Either way, we're probably not going to agree on this at all. Let's agree to disagree.
Freedom Gate Co.
Banned
it doesn't make sense to compare Tekken 3 to VF2 n that regard, you need to get more knowledge of other PSX fighting games, in general there's more going on Tekken 3 was aiming for character models and the foreground looking real good, and the Tekken engine (which is based on the same engine as Tekken 1 and 2 at the core) has to sacrifice the backgrounds but it still showed graphics the Saturn would have much trouble replicating. But if you look at other fighting games you see that the Saturns objects in the middle and background are generally much less filled and Saturn fighters are a lot more static in that regard.
These examples don't make any sense, you are using a bunch of games that even in most cases advertise certain objectives. If you actually start comparing system exclusive fighting games you'll easily start to see the Saturn struggling. This is why more open games are rare on the saturn and why certain genres aren't even in it because it can't handle so many objects and polygons on one playing field and then put 2D or FMV effects like lanterns and waterfalls on top of that.
Like I said the issue with the Saturn is that, other than one of its VDPs being slapped on last second, that it was designed with a bottleneck. It has very similar design flaws as the 3DO, you could call the Saturn the 3DO 2.0. More powerful but many of the same issues. The second VDP doesn't help things and splts resources further and only helps to a limited extent.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
So, all those fighting games don't count? Which one is left then, that does show what you said about doing 60 fps, high res, and more going on in the backgrounds at once? I named all the flagships except what, Street Fighter EX which had other restrictions (fully 2D gameplay)?
What game genres aren't on Saturn? What?
Powerslave/Exhumed Saturn version often had larger and more open/complex levels than the PS port which added more geometry here or there to make up for it but was clearly restricted in comparison, see the DF video about it.
Grandia on Saturn has more texture variety, more background detail, more animated elements, better battle sprites, level structures casting shadows, etc. Where the PS port can look very off with the lack of all that, but has proper character sprite shadows (circles on Saturn).
Again, I don't agree with the guy saying it's more capable, but you're being absurd with your sugar coated trashing, it's not far behind PS1 and all multiplatform games show that. All later PS1 games show is that PS1 got the advantage of game dev evolution and experience from many different studios when Saturn didn't and only had a few SEGA teams trying to push it. And of course devs who stuck with it exploited its strengths and minimized its weaknesses, just as a more successful Saturn would have had them exploit its own strengths and minimize its weaknesses.
What game genres aren't on Saturn? What?
Powerslave/Exhumed Saturn version often had larger and more open/complex levels than the PS port which added more geometry here or there to make up for it but was clearly restricted in comparison, see the DF video about it.
Grandia on Saturn has more texture variety, more background detail, more animated elements, better battle sprites, level structures casting shadows, etc. Where the PS port can look very off with the lack of all that, but has proper character sprite shadows (circles on Saturn).
Again, I don't agree with the guy saying it's more capable, but you're being absurd with your sugar coated trashing, it's not far behind PS1 and all multiplatform games show that. All later PS1 games show is that PS1 got the advantage of game dev evolution and experience from many different studios when Saturn didn't and only had a few SEGA teams trying to push it. And of course devs who stuck with it exploited its strengths and minimized its weaknesses, just as a more successful Saturn would have had them exploit its own strengths and minimize its weaknesses.
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