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[jtb]

Mass Effect was released in 2007. Dragon Age: Origins in 2008. I sped through a playthrough of KOTOR on iOS for the first time in years recently. It's one of my favorite games and an RPG that I would praise as finding a solid balance between accessibility, presentation and the usual WRPG depth—arguably the same balance BioWare has been chasing ever since. That + reading Durante's thread on the 2014 rebirth of the CRPG made me realize: Bioware has been terrible for a really really long time now.

Their writing is terrible (though it wasn't ever that good to begin with) now, barely a step up from Bethesda. That's about it. Mass Effect was good. Dragon Age: Origins was a little worse. Everything after that has been a dumpster fire writing-wise. And, frankly, something like ME2 retroactively makes ME1's writing worse considering that ME functions as the first chapter, of sorts, to a larger story and rather than write chapter 2, BioWare just decided to write a whole new (and far shittier) chapter 1.

Their game design, from the systems to the quests, are uninspired and bland. They value polish over ambition, and still manage to crank out buggy jankfests. I have had zero expectations for Bioware since Dragon Age: Origins—we were promised a BG2 successor and were given a game that was even more watered down than KOTOR. seriously, it's incredible: I usually think of KOTOR as a my-first-RPG type game... and then you realize it's 10x the depth/complexity of any of the games they're released since then. Sadly. ME2 was salt in the wound, DA2 was a cruel joke.

Bioware isn't even a jack of all trades, master of none because they're competent at nothing. They had forsaken any identity they might have had long ago... and for what? metacritic scores? It is fucking criminal that the collective gaming journalism community have given them a pass for churning out one stale, dull, empty game after another.

I'm not even sure I can blame EA (though I would very much like to) because Jade Empire sucks too.

edit: more thoughts

of course I'm bitter!

Bethesda and Bioware were, for the better part of six or seven years, basically the two developers that had a stranglehold on the WRPG market and all they have done is move backwards. People asking for examples.... it's just a fact that BioWare's systems have gotten smaller and more simplistic with every single game they've made. Mass Effect 1 is a flawed game, neither a great RPG nor a great shooter, but at least it was trying to be something.

Its sequels are cover based third person shooters. That's it. We don't have 100s of games that play exactly like that (some of them, much better) than that on the market already? It's one thing to say "let's find a balance between action based games and RPGs" and it's another to just stop making RPGs entirely.

My biggest problem with a game like KOTOR is that it provides you with a ton of different feats, skills, whatever... and while a lot of them came into play in the game, at the end of the day, the thing that was most important was whether or not you could fuck shit up with your lightsaber. A good developer would have said: let's expand the gameplay for all those other ways to play (hint: it's called a ROLE playing game), Bioware says: let's just cut out everything else.

it's lazy, it's bullshit, and yes—the problem is that the games media praises bad RPGs for not being RPGs and shits on good RPGs for being good RPGs. knowing how the industry fetishizes their metacritic scores, this is a problem.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Mass Effect is irritating because it is literally bad fanfiction.

Like, the ridiculous fawning over the MC for anything they do, the cardboard villains put up just for the MC to knock them down, the characters that are just prizes for the MC to win... These are the worst tropes in fanfiction and ME as a series has these tropes everywhere.

 

[hatchx]

did you play dragon age inquisition?

 

[BennyBlanco]

Yea, I realized with DA:I that i'm just over Bioware. Their games aren't fun to me anymore. I just have to accept they aren't the same dev that gave me KOTOR.

 

[Abriael]

The only thing I seriously dislike of BioWare is that their companion characters have steered way too much towards the extreme/freaky in order to appear interesting. The result is that I find almost none of them even remotely appealing.

For the rest, their games are enjoyable, even if not as enjoyable as they used to be.

For what I concerned, the student passed the master long ago. CD Projekt started using BioWare's engine, and now BioWare should take quite a few clues from CD Projekt's games.

 

[Dr Amazon MD]

I like BioWare...

 

[Tevos]

because Jade Empire sucks too.

It sounds like they don't make a style of game you like. That doesn't make them terrible.

 

[Robot Pants]

I agree and have felt this way for a while now.

 

[Savitar]

Got done with Bioware long ago.

I realized that I was not the type of gamer they were catering towards any more.

More of the Baldur's Gate era Bioware.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

You'll notice the cutover is games developed largely before and after the EA acquisition.

EA got the BioWare name, not the BioWare soul.

 

[antitrop]

KOTOR was a classic, but BioWare has just been riding its coattails and essentially making the same game in a different setting for over a decade now.

 

[Scipio]

That's like your opinion man.

I loved Origins, my favourite game ever. (don't like the Mass Effect games or the other DA's that much).

If you think Bioware has THAT bad writing you're making a thread out of it, you must have only played games with Portal/TLOU-esque writing, because most games consist of awful writing. Bioware usually created decent stories (very similar though) with entertaining characters. No Oscar-winning stuff, but pretty funny.

 

[CheesecakeRecipe]

I just want them to pump out another homebrew MMO engine like Neverwinter Nights and let the community make the stories instead.

 

[uncredited male]

But...romances.

 

[DidntKnowJack]

I'm enjoying Inquisition a lot and loved Origins as well. The writing could be a bit better yes, but overall they're very enjoyable games. I never got into Mass Effect that much, but the first game was pretty good.

 

[twobear]

I don't understand why everyone fawns over KOTOR so much when it was clearly the beginning of 'modern' Bioware.

 

[the_batman]

yes, we know.

 

[antitrop]

I don't understand why everyone fawns over KOTOR so much when it was clearly the beginning of 'modern' Bioware.

Because it was original and unique for its time. The idea of a "Star Wars RPG" with good story and characters still sounds too ambitious to make work, but they did it.

 

[Franko]

I loved BG1
I loved BG2
I loved KOTOR
I loved ME1
I liked DA1
I loved ME2
DA2 was alright
I liked SWTOR (Only done Agent)
I loved ME3
I'm loving DAI

Bioware are okay by me.

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Mass Effect is irritating because it is literally bad fanfiction.

Like, the ridiculous fawning over the MC for anything they do, the cardboard villains put up just for the MC to knock them down, the characters that are just prizes for the MC to win... These are the worst tropes in fanfiction and ME as a series has these tropes everywhere.

Master Chief...?

 

[Massa]

I don't like any of their games! Why not? Because they're terrible!

Great write-up OP, would read again.

 

[jtb]

That's like your opinion man.

I loved Origins, my favourite game ever. (don't like the Mass Effect games or the other DA's that much).

If you think Bioware has THAT bad writing you're making a thread out of it, you must have only played games with Portal/TLOU-esque writing, because most games consist of awful writing. Bioware usually created decent stories (very similar though) with entertaining characters. No Oscar-winning stuff, but pretty funny.

My point is basically:
1. Bioware made their reputation on good writing.
2. I have higher standards for WRPG writing than I do for usual game writing.

 

[Blues1990]

I'm probably the only one who loved Jade Empire, & I would be down with revisiting that universe.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Master Chief...?

Main character.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

I wozldn't go so far bur I pretty much agree with you OP

 

[vocab]

They chased that mainstream market, and basically destroyed themselves in the process. The barely make rpg's anymore, so i'm not sure what you expect. They are creatively bankrupt, and are just making their version of other games that have found success.

 

[Nibel]

KOTOR was a classic, but BioWare has just been riding its coattails and essentially making the same game in a different setting for over a decade now.

Playing DA:I.. and I think I agree with you here anti. I really hope that ME4 is going to redefine things a little bit.

 

[Sushi Nao]

You can't really make a compelling argument just by mentioning aspects of the games and then using a different synonym for "bad" for each one.

How about some examples? Pieces of text that particularly bothered you, and your attempts at fixing them?

 

[antitrop]

I'm probably the only one who loved Jade Empire, & I would be down with revisiting that universe.

IGN - 9.9

That makes Jade Empire the most overrated game of all time.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

You are wrong

 

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Mass Effect was released in 2007. Dragon Age: Origins in 2008. I sped through a playthrough of KOTOR on iOS for the first time in years recently. It's one of my favorite games and an RPG that I would praise as finding a solid balance between accessibility, presentation and the usual WRPG depth—arguably the same balance BioWare has been chasing ever since. That + reading Durante's thread on the 2014 rebirth of the CRPG made me realize: Bioware has been terrible for a really really long time now.

Their writing is terrible (though it wasn't ever that good to begin with) now, barely a step up from Bethesda. That's about it. Mass Effect was good. Dragon Age: Origins was a little worse. Everything after that has been a dumpster fire writing-wise. And, frankly, something like ME2 retroactively makes ME1's writing worse considering that ME functions as the first chapter, of sorts, to a larger story and rather than write chapter 2, BioWare just decided to write a whole new (and far shittier) chapter 1.

Their game design, from the systems to the quests, are uninspired and bland. They value polish over ambition, and still manage to crank out buggy jankfests. I have had zero expectations for Bioware since Dragon Age: Origins—we were promised a BG2 successor and were given a game that was even more watered down than KOTOR. seriously, it's incredible: I usually think of KOTOR as a my-first-RPG type game... and then you realize it's 10x the depth/complexity of any of the games they're released since then. Sadly. ME2 was salt in the wound, DA2 was a cruel joke.

Bioware isn't even a jack of all trades, master of none because they're competent at nothing. They had forsaken any identity they might have had long ago... and for what? metacritic scores? It is fucking criminal that the collective gaming journalism community have given them a pass for churning out one stale, dull, empty game after another.

I'm not even sure I can blame EA (though I would very much like to) because Jade Empire sucks too.

Why don't you stop playing BioWare games? This isn't 2008, it's 2015. Divinity, Wasteland 2, Shadowrun, Banner Saga. Plenty of games to float your boat.

In the mean time those of us having fun with BioWare games can look forward to Dragon Age DLCs and Mass Effect 4 without you shouting from the mountain tops, "THESE GAMES ARE TRASH!"

Because judging by the general reaction to DA:I, plenty of people enjoy BioWare's games.

 

[Dawg]

Mass Effect is irritating because it is literally bad fanfiction.

Like, the ridiculous fawning over the MC for anything they do, the cardboard villains put up just for the MC to knock them down, the characters that are just prizes for the MC to win... These are the worst tropes in fanfiction and ME as a series has these tropes everywhere.

Not the first Mass Effect imho

 

[SavoyPrime]

Bioware hasn't really done wrong by me aside from the horrible ME3 ending. Also Dragon Age II was disappointing but still okay. I think they got back on track with Inquisition. Had a blast with that.

 

[De_Legend]

Kotor...

I want another Fing Kotor god damnit. Why does it take so long? Maybe I'm missing something?

 

[JehutyRunner]

Dragon Age: Origins in 2008...

*2009

 

[Card Boy]

As if you can do any better OP.

 

[SoulUnison]

Mass Effect is irritating because it is literally bad fanfiction.

It can't be "literally" fanfiction if it's being made by the original company/creator.
Stop throwing that word around carelessly.

 

[patapuf]

i don't think they are terrible.

However i don't like their formula anymore. It was fun the first few times but i'm looking for a bit more depth (be it combat or story) and there's only so many times i can run with what is essentially the same party.

 

[the_batman]

Mass Effect is irritating because it is literally bad fanfiction.

Like, the ridiculous fawning over the MC for anything they do, the cardboard villains put up just for the MC to knock them down, the characters that are just prizes for the MC to win... These are the worst tropes in fanfiction and ME as a series has these tropes everywhere.

yes, oh god, yes. the series had so much potential too.

 

[antitrop]

Playing DA:I.. and I think I agree with you here anti. I really hope that ME4 is going to redefine things a little bit.

BioWare is the Ubisoft of modern console RPGs. The minimap icon hunt of Dragon Age: Inquisition makes that perfectly clear. DA: I is an Ubisoft game with good dialogue and characterization.

Inquisition's questing structure is completely different and inferior to Origins, in favor of "SO MUCH CONTENT ITS GONNA TAKE YOU ONE HUNDRED HOURS TO BEAT THIS GAME HOWS THAT?! HUH?! YEAH!".

 

[disappeared]

I enjoyed Mass Effect for what it was (and dodged the sequels like the fucking plague), but yeah, I haven't really enjoyed a game of theirs since KotOR. Times were a little different back then though.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Pretty sure Dragon Age: Origins came out in 2009 but whatever. BioWare have been using the same copy and paste formula for years. Same character archetypes, same good/evil dialogue system and overall most the plots have been the same.

 

[Lakitu]

I fucking love Bioware. So there.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Because judging by the general reaction to DA:I, plenty of people enjoy BioWare's games.

I'm sure plenty of people are wrong, too.

 

[Tony Redgrave]

I don't know what people expect anymore, BioWare is doing ok within the framework of today's gaming industry IMO. They might be walking two steps forward one step back but at least they're always trying to progress within their own formula and take fan feedback seriously.

Sometimes it seems to me like people judge them on some impossibly high standard, and I don't know if that is good or bad to be honest.

 

[Some Nobody]

You can't really make a compelling argument just by mentioning aspects of the games and then using a different synonym for "bad" for each one.

How about some examples? Pieces of text that particularly bothered you, and your attempts at fixing them?

This is the trouble I'm having. People always say "this is bad", but never why or what they would have done differently. I think people have trouble discerning what's objectively poor and what they simply don't like.

I'm sure plenty of people are wrong, too.

Well, plenty of people are wrong...but not about DA: I. Sorry.

 

[The Technomancer]

I agree with all the points raised in the OP, if not the hyperbole. For a while they were my "any port in a storm" developer, but now that we're getting some actual high quality CRPGs again I can't muster any interest in anything they're working on

 

[Feichaw]

Man, let it go. All that hate is bad for you. Just don't buy their games and you'll be ok.

Me, I LOVE BioWare. If it wasn't for Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins, I probably wouldn't be playing games anymore. Almost nothing captured my interest during 2000-2009, and when I heard about Dragon Age: Origins, I tried and I was amazed with it. Then, I bought Mass Effect in 2010 and now I'm here, with 4 consoles and a gaming PC. I only have to thank them for all their work.

 

[npa189]

Sidenote here: is the mobile version of KOTOR any good? I've never played it and I've always wanted to, android or PC?

 

[muffs92]

Baldur's gate 1/2
Neverwinter Nights
KOtOR
Mass Effect 1/2
Dragon Age: Origins/Inquisition

Yeah Bioware is totally bad at games.