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Bioware is fucking terrible.
- Thread starter jtb
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Bioware is stuck in a rut where they're still beholden to BG2's legacy, but this legacy - and the fans they've retained - has made fetishes of c&c and romance/companionship that's gone to some unfortunate places both in-game and within its fandom. So you have untenable attempts to maintain a history of consequence across a trilogy of games and the fandom makes charts about the composition of Tali's sweat, and these are things that the studio sees as essential to the games' successes, their core identity if you will, all while bowing under the pressure of developing for an AAA market.
So stuff like having solid mechanics goes under the wheel (and has been ignored since KOTOR's success proved to them that the consumer base doesn't really care) and they focus on developing likable companions to the detriment of their actual characterization in-game. DAI makes an attempt to remedy that last part, but then they've met backlash in the form of accusations that they're trying too hard, this bitch is ugly, SJW SJW etc etc. And Inquisition in general has a ton of problems that go beyond whatever flaws you might perceive in the characterization of their cast.
Going forward I don't think they'll abandon their usual christlike protagonists because they're popular - people like the sense of power, and the feeling of being admired, and this success is reflected in the popularity of similar titles outside of bioware's catalogue: see Persona 4, Fire Emblem: Awakening, etc. It's a pity but it's what sells. I guess I'd be really disappointed if we weren't going through a goddamn renaissance of RPGs.
So stuff like having solid mechanics goes under the wheel (and has been ignored since KOTOR's success proved to them that the consumer base doesn't really care) and they focus on developing likable companions to the detriment of their actual characterization in-game. DAI makes an attempt to remedy that last part, but then they've met backlash in the form of accusations that they're trying too hard, this bitch is ugly, SJW SJW etc etc. And Inquisition in general has a ton of problems that go beyond whatever flaws you might perceive in the characterization of their cast.
Going forward I don't think they'll abandon their usual christlike protagonists because they're popular - people like the sense of power, and the feeling of being admired, and this success is reflected in the popularity of similar titles outside of bioware's catalogue: see Persona 4, Fire Emblem: Awakening, etc. It's a pity but it's what sells. I guess I'd be really disappointed if we weren't going through a goddamn renaissance of RPGs.
Yeah, just start from ME1. And go adept.
I agree with just about everything here but on the subject of protagonists, do you think Hawke was too far in the other direction "christ-like"?
Unfortunately I've never played DA2.
Hawke was the character no one wanted to be.
However, as a character, I think Hawke had a lot more personality and charisma than the Inquisitor, who was a bland victim of circumstance.
I don't read reviews, but I imagine that your scale would be based on how much you really liked or disliked the first game and then 2.
If you liked DAO for its world building, don't expect much from that in DAI.
If you liked the direction of the streamlined battle system, then DAI will give you that all over again.
I think it's a decent 8/10. Story is good when it's there, but that's unfortunately not very often.
It's very similar to two, actually, just with large maps. However, I think I liked a lot of the characters in two more than DAI, well maybe some of them.
Hawke was the character no one wanted to be.
However, as a character, I think Hawke had a lot more personality and charisma than the Inquisitor, who was a bland victim of circumstance.
A defined personality is not something you want to give a player character in an RPG.
swazzyswess
Member
This is GAF, so both.
If you enjoyed Bioware's recent output then DA:I stacks up pretty well. If you didn't then I don't think it will change your mind.
I don't really care for anything Bioware post DA:O but I'm really liking it. For me it reminds me a bit of the exploration from Baldur's Gate. Just going out in the world and finding cool stuff to explore while all the codexs fill in the lore. It's a slow burn kind of game were I really like imagining all these adventures taking days/weeks/months. Really making the dramatic story sequences feel earned. Of course I really hate how the story scenarios seem to be incredibly urgent... makes me feel like a dick for taking forever to get to them.
Unfortunately Bioware has forgotten this. I like Inquisition since it more or less fits the way I would play the game. But I do miss the option to do truly different things. Not just pick good guy and anti-hero choices.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
You seem upset for some reason.
I don't know. It worked well for ME, right? I mean you could be good or dubious, but Shepard was a self-contained personality.
Obviously, they mishandled DA2 and that pertains to Hawke and his role as a character. However, I feel like I liked Hawke as things went along, where I don't really know where I fall in terms of "The Inquisitor" who is just some random with a magic hand.
Well, that's what people feel when the think they are surrounded by condescension and hostility.
human onion
Banned
That's not necessarily true. You can give the player character a backstory and personality and still allow the player to develop the character during the game. It can actually make for more believable choice and consequence system where you can make choices with drastically different consequences but still maintain the written personality of the character. With a blank slate, making the choices you feel are right for different situations can often make your character some sort of schizophrenic who lapses between being Jesus and Hitler.
This is one of the reasons The Witcher series is praised for its writing. KOTOR 2 also does this to an extent, enough so that most of the choices you make can be consistent with the character's backstory and development while still having impact.
I don't care all that much about their ways of story telling, they're ok relatively but it is really repetitive now, and not just in that you're the savior and champion or whatever. They have been good at creating good companion characters but even that has been treading same waters with DAI now. With DAI me having not finished DA2 and the game focusing a lot on the utterly boring and cliche mage vs templar story didn't help at all either. It just felt every dialog is about that, I can't be bothered with listening to all that again and again. The world DAO set up had more potential but they chose this boring monotonous direction for the sequels and I don't care about it one bit.
All of that would have been fine if their games were mechanically better and I think they're trying but they are still awful and janky. Mass Effect become a serviceable shooter in the end but DA combat never worked for me, generic garbage questing as the way for you to progress the main story is really bad too. Their games aren't terrible overall just mediocre and heavily flawed.
All of that would have been fine if their games were mechanically better and I think they're trying but they are still awful and janky. Mass Effect become a serviceable shooter in the end but DA combat never worked for me, generic garbage questing as the way for you to progress the main story is really bad too. Their games aren't terrible overall just mediocre and heavily flawed.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
If nothing else, DA:I ensured BioWare is going to have to pick a new direction to go in regards to player progression. I mean, they made you literal Jesus, so it's not like they can go back to having playing start as the newjack in shadowy organization X. Once you've got NPCs calling the player "your worship" and bowing, they really can't go any further up that particular tree.
Dragon Age: Just a Regular Joe is gonna be so cash.
Dragon Age: Just a Regular Joe is gonna be so cash.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Yeah, I'm honestly curious how Bioware is going to either top the Inquisitor, or pull off reverting back to a more Warden-like sense of scale (somehow, I doubt they'll try to pull off a one-city only retread of DA2).
Kind of like the concept of DA2 but I don't know I would want to waste the time installing after hearing how bad it is.
EDIT: There was a huge missed opportunity in DA:I as far as the protagonist goes. If you could actually go the evil route
maybe reveal that really did blow up the conclave
Inquisition seems to cap off the Southern Thedas storyline. My guess is the next game is going to be about the Tevinter/Qunari war, and you are the only guy/girl who can (somehow) stop it!
Seems right.
Someone never left the Hinterlands...
Bl@de
Member
I don't follow the whole discussion. But the big difference for me is this:
The old infinity games (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale) were set in the Forgotten Realms and followed the AD&D ruleset. And the thing is ... there is a lot of lore in the Forgotten Realms. Books, Games, ... that's why it always felt great to play a game in this world with all the characters. Basically like going to Middle-Earth.
Maybe it's not particularly the writing of dialogue and such when people say "bioware sucks"... but that Bioware has to make everything up themselves instead of using a whole universe/ruleset. That way you can focus on gameplay, story and dialogue. In Dragon Age they had to invent the world and stuff which costs a lot of ressources ... and is a hard thing to do.
Just saying.
The old infinity games (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale) were set in the Forgotten Realms and followed the AD&D ruleset. And the thing is ... there is a lot of lore in the Forgotten Realms. Books, Games, ... that's why it always felt great to play a game in this world with all the characters. Basically like going to Middle-Earth.
Maybe it's not particularly the writing of dialogue and such when people say "bioware sucks"... but that Bioware has to make everything up themselves instead of using a whole universe/ruleset. That way you can focus on gameplay, story and dialogue. In Dragon Age they had to invent the world and stuff which costs a lot of ressources ... and is a hard thing to do.
Just saying.
I agree, though less so in terms of lore/world building and much more in terms of game engine/system/etc. building. I think a huge problem is that Bioware basically throws out the baby with the bathwater with every new release rather than ever actually taking the time to refine the mechanics and fully realize their vision in sequels so all of their games are either very undercooked and janky or light on features/content... or, occasionally both! (DA2)
Woo-Fu
Banned
I'm not upset, not sure why you'd think that.
Simply stating that by making their games more accessible they water down what has traditionally been what makes an RPG an RPG.
They turn it into easily-digestible baby food. Some of us still want to chew our food.
I'd like more Masks of the Betrayer and fewer Dragon Ages but it doesn't really matter what I'd like since the older I get the more niche my favored genres become.
Oh and if you spend most of the combat merely jumping you can still beat DA:I on any difficulty other than Nightmare. Your companions can handle all that tedious combat for you.
I too am starting to sour a bit on Bioware's formula. Their games all feel very samey. They have been basically making the same game since Mass Effect.
I love/hate dragon age inquisition. The presentation is pretty good, but a lot of the quests were lame, and there was a lack of meaningful loot. I hated the use of "power" to gate your progress, and as a result never entered some areas. Eventually, I ust wanted to finish the game, so conserved my power to open the story missions.
I don't know, I might skip their next release. DAI had a lot of tedium in it, IMO.
I love/hate dragon age inquisition. The presentation is pretty good, but a lot of the quests were lame, and there was a lack of meaningful loot. I hated the use of "power" to gate your progress, and as a result never entered some areas. Eventually, I ust wanted to finish the game, so conserved my power to open the story missions.
I don't know, I might skip their next release. DAI had a lot of tedium in it, IMO.
Then why don't you play on nightmare ?
I'm playing DAI on nightmare and satisfied with the combat.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
I'm not finished DA:I but from what I've played so far, they did a terrible job building up to you becoming the inquisitor. People were basically deferring to you and letting you make all the major decisions from like 10 minutes into the game so when you get this apparently significant title it's pretty underwhelming.
I love Bioware. KOTOR gave me a tiny flavor of what I wanted, but no other game gave it to me so I accepted it. Then they gave me ME1 and especially ME2 and it was that tiny flavor only expanded to be so much more. Mass Effect 2 is probably my current favorite Bioware game. ME3 was great in many respects, but flubbing the ending kinda messed up the entire experience. DA:I has a great many good points, but also actually lost some of the things that made DAO and DA2 great (namely the character interactions).
And here's an unpopular opinion: DA2 was a brilliant idea and probably would have ended up as one of my top two Bioware games, if it had had a longer development time.
In short: If Bioware is making games you don't like, that doesn't mean they're bad games.
And here's an unpopular opinion: DA2 was a brilliant idea and probably would have ended up as one of my top two Bioware games, if it had had a longer development time.
In short: If Bioware is making games you don't like, that doesn't mean they're bad games.
Plots have easily been the weakest part of Bioware's writing for a long time now.
Yeah that is one of my problems with the game. Your character went from being accused of killing the divine and god knows who else to being the unofficial leader in about zero seconds flat.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Without even so much as a hand wave, either. Cassandra, the right hand of the Divine herself and a Seeker, turns to you and says "What do you think we should do?" Clearly, this was meant as a placeholder, but they just said "Eh, fuck it. Good enough."
EDIT: And that goes back to the fact that DA:I was the culmination of the entire thing. Hawke was important, but he wasn't the leader of really anything. The Hero was, until the very end, just a Grey Warden. (Maybe the Grey Warden). Shepard didn't run the Navy, the Citadel or the Council. KotoR you were, until the big reveal, just another Jedi.
Here, you're Jesus and the king and queen defer to you. Unless the next game has you as the Maker in human form ... crap. That's what they're going to do, isn't it?
It did make Cassandra and Leliana seem freaking Alistar levels of indecisive. Which makes no sense for people who are supposed to be the right and left hand of the Divine. Though that was just the start. For example I also found it weird the the ruler of Ferelden didn't have any problem with this unknown group claiming keeps and territory in their kingdom.
Don't be crazy. Your character will obviously be Andraste reborn and the Maker will just be one of your many romance options.
Draqgon Age becomes Exalted or Nobilis. It would certainly solve the game's indentity problem.
Enosh
Member
what?
I enjoy bioware games, although I increasingly feel like I'm no longer part of their desired audience but that's a different issue, but the animations in most of them are dogshit along with way too many clipping issues
going by that 30 mins demo, witcher 3 isn't perfect but it seems to be miles ahead of your average bioware animation (I wasn't even interested in the witcher until a week back when i finally started playing the second one, which is mazing but that's a different topic ^^)
just look at this from few pages back
this is awful (and a good example that sometimes taking the male animation and using it for females just doesn't work) and it's looks to me like the same sitting animation they used since ME1, maybe I'm just going crazyI'll admit I was disappointed in some of the animation, especially the cloth physics as well as the fact that they didn't adjust some poses.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
You know what, that actually would be fine if they used it in an interesting way.
Problem is: The game acts like you are the fantasy-jesus but you still behave just like random dude. It would be kinda cool if you could become totally power-hungry and self absorbed in the game.
But most of the "evil" options I have chosen basically were just "I'm a huge asshole". Nothing clever or interesting about it. (The whole "good option - evil option" is so badly done cause I've never ever encountered a situation where the evil option gives you any real benefit that you wouldn't get from the good option. You're just being an unreasonably large ass and damaging your relation with your followers)
If you act like I'm a super badass let me also act like I'm one. Let me threaten Queens and Kings with my power and might. But let me do it in an interesting, engaging way. Let me turn my goody-goody followers into horrible people. (remember: Kotor 2 did that and it was awesome). Let me use my infinite charisma to corrupt them, contort them and then spit them out when they fit my vision. THAT would be really cool.
Oh, I totally forgot about that. I really disliked when people called me that. I mean, I guess I'm lord of the keep, but do they have to go all formal? Plus, I don't really like how they jumped to and forced the conclusion that I was a herald. That was poorly constructed.
I don't think anyone can say that the game had a good starting point. As far as BW games go, it's as dry and quick as it gets. It's as if Origins never existed. . . .
Deflating spoilers:
The Inquisitor has a very small back story that isn't worth telling depending on what race you selected -- which is probably why they never actually go into it.
Goes without saying. ME3 felt like fan fiction and was so self-referential that I almost couldn't handle it. The Citadel DLC was jarring in that respect, I just couldn't tell if it was supposed to be a joke at times. I know fans loved it, but I've always been a cautious fan.
I've been dying to go to Tevinter since DAO. I think the magic, the lore, the alternate view of the chantry, etc., would have been amazing. However, now that they've spoiled some of the mystery
of the old gods (although mostly indirectly) and some of Tevinter
Fortunately Inquisition also caps off the chantry/templar/mage BS as far as we can all tell.
Now they can, ironically, focus on the old gods and possibly the Fade, which is what I wanted from the first place. -_-
I really wanted the fantasy, and we got boring human disputes.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I like how when Hawke shows up in DA:I Cassandra goes ballistic on Varric because he was hiding him. He's made out to be more relevant than your magic hand even after you become Inquisitor.
I think Bioware writing is at its best when it doesn't take itself too seriously.
I think the best example of this is Dragon Age 2, which has loads of people who have complex personalities, and that one lady who really likes sex, and talking about sex, and talking about liking sex. And when you start out, you're thinking "I reckon these complex people are going to be interesting and this sex lady is going to get super annoying super quickly". But then as the game goes on you realize that the "complex" characters have a Sad Thing that happened in the past and that's what turned them into assholes or alternately that's why it turns out they weren't really an asshole after all! And they're all written like the exact same Joss Whedon character! And then you just kind of resent all those characters for the rest of the game while the sex lady kind of grows on you just because she's the only person in the game who isn't a massively pretentious wanker, and you don't have to talk to her if you don't want to, and if you engage her in any way, it's obvious what's going to happen so there's no point in complaining what happens. (It's dialogue about sex, incidentally. That's what happens, people with no pattern recognition ability.) Like there's a bit where you can go into the Fade with some of your dudes and if you take the sex lady, she's obviously going to betray you for sex reasons. And then she's like "I'm betraying you" and you're like "Is it for sex reasons?" and she's like "No a demon promised me a boat" and you're like "So you're betraying me for a large floating phallic symbol filled with seamen?" and she's like "...Yes. :-/" and you're like "God bless you, crazy sex lady" and that is my Dragon Age 2 story.
I think the best example of this is Dragon Age 2, which has loads of people who have complex personalities, and that one lady who really likes sex, and talking about sex, and talking about liking sex. And when you start out, you're thinking "I reckon these complex people are going to be interesting and this sex lady is going to get super annoying super quickly". But then as the game goes on you realize that the "complex" characters have a Sad Thing that happened in the past and that's what turned them into assholes or alternately that's why it turns out they weren't really an asshole after all! And they're all written like the exact same Joss Whedon character! And then you just kind of resent all those characters for the rest of the game while the sex lady kind of grows on you just because she's the only person in the game who isn't a massively pretentious wanker, and you don't have to talk to her if you don't want to, and if you engage her in any way, it's obvious what's going to happen so there's no point in complaining what happens. (It's dialogue about sex, incidentally. That's what happens, people with no pattern recognition ability.) Like there's a bit where you can go into the Fade with some of your dudes and if you take the sex lady, she's obviously going to betray you for sex reasons. And then she's like "I'm betraying you" and you're like "Is it for sex reasons?" and she's like "No a demon promised me a boat" and you're like "So you're betraying me for a large floating phallic symbol filled with seamen?" and she's like "...Yes. :-/" and you're like "God bless you, crazy sex lady" and that is my Dragon Age 2 story.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The advantage CD Projekt Red have over Bioware in terms of character animation is that they don't have a character creator and pretty much build every character seemingly from scratch. They also have an actual main character, instead of a character creator that has to support at least millions of different combinations on top of different genders on top of different races that have different body structures that all have to conform to the same moveset.
They have the benefit of having one playable character for the actual game.
who's animations3 belong to him and only him, tradeoff being that he doesn't use a bunch of different weapon types.
They also use realtime hack and slash combat with way more motion captured animation, (they've apparently had the same guy doing the combat motion capture for Geralt since Witcher 1), compared to Bioware's more MMO-ish style combat that seems to have a lot of keyframed animation mixed in with the motion capture. And another big benefit is working on a pc centric/next gen only title, way more memory, they even want to have it so there's no loops in Witcher 3. Witcher 2 does suffer from some uncanny valley syndrome in the faces, which they seem to address in Witcher 3. A more fair comparison would be Bioware compared to a Bethesda game.
I'll never understand all the praises Rockstar gets for the stories (at least from GTA and Max Payne 3, haven't played RDR and Bully). Max Payne 3 is a huge downgrade from the Remedy games and GTA's sarcasm is paper-thin. I'd qualify Bioware's writing above Rockstar's (then again I haven't played RDR, but I also haven't played Baldur's Gate, which is said by many to be Bioware's best writing).
Yeah it sounds like what you were looking for is what was shown in the quest "Champions of the Just". The entire quest is
an examination of what would happen if an Envy demon stole your body and you ended up using your power for destruction rather than for good.
It's not a modern Bioware game without awkward animations! I enjoyed the game, but the Bioware animations had me rolling at times. Sometimes Inquisition characters moved straight up like characters out of Dargon Age Origins or a Mass Effect game, and considering how much better this game looked I found that quite hilarious. It truly screamed Bioware, lol.
EvilKatarn
Member
Dragon Age 2, The Old Republic and Mass Effect 3 all released when they were still at Bioware. I don't think they mattered or cared much anyway.
I basically agree with this. Ever since GTA IV or possibly even earlier, Rockstar's started having this kind of delusion of being some kind of genius auteur satirist, so the GTA games now satirize everything. And that's kind of a problem, because in order to satirize everything, you have to find flaws in everything, and kind of take the attitude that you're above everything. And that's fine for a lot of things, and I mean a lot of things, because lots of things people like are inherently absurd. But then GTA realizes that it has hits its stride with satire and then it skips the vitally important part of finding the dumb parts of things it's trying to satirize and just goes "Look at this cunt who is doing yoga! What a dumb bitch for not wanting to be a fat immobile piece of shit! And look at this faggot who likes things instead of hating literally everything like a fucking awesome rebel! Things are shit! I'm a clever satire of modern culture! Everything sucks! Look at these three protagonists! What a bunch of fucking losers!" Fuck off, GTA. As a person who likes a lot of things, I don't like you.
The advantage CD Projekt Red have over Bioware in terms of character animation is that they don't have a character creator and pretty much build every character seemingly from scratch. They also have an actual main character, instead of a character creator that has to support at least millions of different combinations on top of different genders on top of different races that have different body structures that all have to conform to the same moveset.
They have the benefit of having one playable character for the actual game.
who's animations3 belong to him and only him, tradeoff being that he doesn't use a bunch of different weapon types.
They also use realtime hack and slash combat with way more motion captured animation, (they've apparently had the same guy doing the combat motion capture for Geralt since Witcher 1), compared to Bioware's more MMO-ish style combat that seems to have a lot of keyframed animation mixed in with the motion capture. And another big benefit is working on a pc centric/next gen only title, way more memory, they even want to have it so there's no loops in Witcher 3. Witcher 2 does suffer from some uncanny valley syndrome in the faces, which they seem to address in Witcher 3. A more fair comparison would be Bioware compared to a Bethesda game.
Witcher 3 will have 2 protagonists male and female try to find another excuses for Bioware incompetence
I'm sure a couple of professional adults will survive a critical thread and some comments in one specific place on the Internet. And I'm sure that criticism isn't something that's bad for a creative industry.
You should rather ask questions about the working practices of the games industry which were the actual reasons for why they left.
DAI has 4 races with male and female for each races with 3 classes to choose.
4*2*3 = 24 - 2(because Dwarf cannot be mage.) = 22 characters to animates.
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