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Bloomberg - Euro Breakup Talk Increases as Germany Loses Proxy

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Ripclawe

Banned
This history of the Euro and the amount of fakery that some countries used to join is interesting.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=agwHp5N5FXA8&pos=2

May 14 (Bloomberg) -- Romano Prodi recalls how he persuaded Germany to allow debt-swamped Italy into the euro: support our membership and we’ll buy your milk, he said.

When Prodi toured Germany’s agricultural heartland after becoming Italian leader in 1996, he pitched “a big milk pipeline from Bavaria,” pointing to a three-year, 40 percent plunge in the Italian lira that was hurting dairy sales. “To have Italy outside the euro, a huge quantity of exports from Germany would have been endangered,” Prodi, now 70, said.

Germany got the message, allowing entry rules to be bent to create a 16-nation market for its exporters. Now, German taxpayers are footing the bill for that permissiveness as Europe bails out divergent economies lashed to a single currency with little control over national taxes and spending.

The consequences are an 860 billion-euro ($1 trillion) bill for a debt binge led by Greece, sagging confidence in the European Central Bank’s independence and mounting speculation that a currency designed to last forever might break apart.

“You have the great problem of a potential disintegration of the euro,” former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker, 82, said yesterday in London. “The essential element of discipline in economic policy and in fiscal policy that was hoped for” has “so far not been rewarded in some countries.”

German-led northern Europe, with its zeal for budget discipline, is attempting to fix the mistakes made by the euro’s founding fathers in the 1990s. It is squaring off against the governments of the south over who will control the euro and the ECB; whether the currency will be used to promote growth or squelch inflation, and ultimately, whether some countries should be disbarred from the monetary union.

European Club

What was conceived as a club for Europe’s strongest economies was expanded for political reasons, leaving the currency union with minimal powers to police deficit spending and no safety net for dealing with countries, like Greece, that veer toward default.

“There was no discussion of that at all, of a crisis mechanism,” said Niels Thygesen, a retired Copenhagen University economics professor who served on the 1989 group led by European Commission President Jacques Delors that mapped out the path to the euro. “It was believed that if countries adhered more or less to prudent budgetary policies, that would not or could not happen.”

Kohl’s Role

Former German Chancellor Helmut Kohl, seeing the euro as the capstone of Europe’s economic integration and Germany’s return to the European family after two world wars, opened the door to the deficit-prone southern European countries that the Bundesbank, haunted by the memory of hyper-inflation, wanted to keep out.

Returning from the December 1991 summit in Maastricht, the Netherlands, that kicked off the euro project, Kohl told the German parliament that he wanted “the greatest possible number of countries” in the euro. That gave Italy, Spain and Portugal the encouragement to meet the economic targets to join in 1999 and Greece to follow two years later.

Defenders of the German economic model knew the threat posed by countries such as Italy, whose budget deficit was 10.2 percent of gross domestic product in 1991, when they forced European leaders to set 3 percent as the limit for euro members.

“A well-known German financial leader told me: Fortunately for Germany, Austria is between Italy and Germany,” said Alfons Verplaetse, who oversaw the Belgian central bank from 1989 to 1999. The reckoning was that only Germany and its immediate neighbors would pass the economic tests, limiting the euro to a handful of countries, Verplaetse, 80, said.

Nobel Laureate

Today’s euro is far from what economists like Nobel laureate Robert Mundell call an “optimum currency area.” Gross domestic product per person ranges from 69,300 euros in Luxembourg to 18,100 euros in Slovakia, debt from 14.5 percent of GDP in Luxembourg to 115.8 percent in Italy, and unemployment from 4.1 percent in the Netherlands to 19.1 percent in Spain.

“A currency without a state is difficult to manage,” said former Italian Prime Minister Lamberto Dini, 79, who also served as the nation’s finance and foreign minister. “The decision to create a single currency in Europe was an eminently political decision. It was supposed to bring about greater European integration not only at an economic level, but at a political one.”

Europe’s multi-state structure leaves it without a U.S.- style federal tax and financial-transfer system to smooth discrepancies between richer and poorer regions. The EU’s budget, mostly for farm aid and infrastructure projects, represents barely 1 percent of the bloc’s GDP, compared with European national budgets that average 47 percent of GDP.

The Blueprint

Signs of a mismatch between strong and weak economies and a loose coordination of fiscal policies were noticeable in the earliest blueprint for a common currency.

“In view of the marked divergences that persist between member states in realizing the goal of growth and stability, there is a risk of surging disequilibriums unless economic policy can be harmonized,” Luxembourg Prime Minister Pierre Werner wrote in the 1970 report that introduced Europe’s first bid for a single money.

Four decades later, Werner’s prophecies are coming true, as euro-region governments prioritize domestic needs to pacify voters after the deepest recession in a half century. The EU Commission estimated May 5 that the overall economy will grow 0.9 percent in 2010, not enough to create jobs, after shrinking 4.1 percent in 2009. It predicts unemployment will climb to 10.3 percent in 2010 from 9.4 percent in 2009.

Euro Rejection?

German officials are already debating what was unthinkable to the euro’s architects: that a currency union designed in its founding treaty to be “irrevocable” might not be. Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said March 12 that expulsion from the euro may be the ultimate penalty for serial violators of debt rules.

Under current EU law, ejection is “legally next to impossible,” the ECB said in December. Changing the treaty requires unanimity among the EU’s 27 governments, so the euro’s current lineup -- likely to be joined by Estonia next year -- will have to find a way of making do.

Markets have rendered a mixed verdict on the euro’s resistance to the crisis. The currency’s decline below $1.24 for the first time since November 2008 from a record high of $1.60 in July 2008 still leaves it above the starting rate of $1.17. The euro is about 11 percent overvalued against the dollar, data compiled by Bloomberg of purchasing power parities show.

Maastricht Treaty

Greece’s ability to get into the euro illustrates what is wrong with Europe’s uncoordinated economic management. Greece, the EU’s poorest country at the time of Maastricht, set about cutting its budget deficit from 16.3 percent and persuading the Germans that it was serious about being fiscally prudent.

By 1996, with Greece’s deficit at 7.4 percent of GDP, Finance Minister Yannos Papantoniou was confident enough of making the grade that he pleaded for the euro’s paper money to feature the name “euro” in the Greek alphabet.

The German reaction wasn’t encouraging. Theo Waigel, Germany’s finance minister at the time, responded by saying he had “enough trouble in Germany trying to sell this idea of giving up the mark, and now you want me to put funny letters on it as well,” said Ruairi Quinn, then Irish finance minister, recalling the altercation at an April 1996 meeting in Verona, Italy. Waigel added that “it’s all irrelevant because you’re never going to qualify,” according to Quinn.

Greek Letters

The global economic boom of the late 1990s enabled Greece to meet the targets for deficits, debt, inflation, interest rates and currency stability. Greece joined the monetary union in 2001 and a year later, banknotes featuring generic architectural symbols and embossed with Greek lettering went into Europe-wide circulation.

Waigel started with a “very negative position,” said Papantoniou, 60, the Greek finance minister from 1994 to 2001. He responded to the German’s outburst in Verona by offering him “an appointment in two years’ time to check this out and you’ll change your mind.”

“Once we entered the euro, we forgot about the necessity of carrying on this structural effort and we now pay the price,” Papantoniou said. Waigel, now 71 and a lawyer at GSK Stockmann + Kollegen in Munich, wasn’t available to comment for this article.

What Societe Generale SA economist Dylan Grice dubs a “Greek tragedy” dates to 2004, when the new Conservative government of Costas Karamanlis accused its predecessor of fiddling the budget numbers to pass the euro test -- a charge Papantoniou denies. EU records now show that Greece has never brought its deficit under the limit.

‘Greek Drachma’

“Investors had always regarded the euro as a de jure German mark,” Louis Bacon, founder of the $15 billion hedge- fund firm Moore Capital Management LLC, wrote in an April 16 letter to investors who have made an annual return of 20.5 percent from his flagship fund during the past two decades. “It’s dawning on the world that it is becoming, de facto, a Greek drachma.”

Greece’s credit rating was cut to junk by Standard & Poor’s on April 27, making it the first euro member to lose its investment grade.

The nation’s slipping competitiveness was masked by an economic expansion buoyed by the euro-driven drop in bond yields to 3.23 percent in September 2005. Growth peaked at 5.9 percent in 2003, topping the euro zone that year. Unit labor costs that bounded ahead by as much as 10.2 percent in 2002 put Greece at a disadvantage to countries like Germany, where wages declined in 2004, 2005 and 2006.

‘New Odyssey’

Greece’s fiscal crisis was exposed after another change in government, from the conservatives back to the socialists last October. Prime Minister George Papandreou, elected on a promise of higher wages and benefits, is now on what he calls a “new Odyssey” that may end with the dismantling of the welfare state built by his father Andreas, Greek leader from 1981 to 1989 and 1993 to 1996.

Italy’s journey to the euro followed a similar script to Greece, from German opposition to reluctance to acceptance. Then the paths diverged. Italy kept its deficit under the limit five times in the euro’s first 11 years. Deficit-obsessed Germany has only done so six times.

Led by Prodi, Italy snuck under the deficit ceiling in 1997, the test year for the first group of euro aspirants, helped by a one-off “Eurotax” and a yen-denominated swap. Italy wasn’t alone in coming up with one-time savings and accounting dodges. France transferred pension funds from France Telecom SA to graze the 3 percent limit.


Bundesbank Bid

Even Waigel made an ill-fated bid to get the Bundesbank to boost the paper value of its currency reserves to reduce Germany’s debt.

Germany’s tight-money faction dictated the rules for the euro, yet it lost out when Waigel’s call for automatic sanctions on countries with deficit overruns was rejected by other governments in talks that culminated in Dublin in December 1996.

Prodi, who served two stints as Italian leader and ran the EU Commission from 1999 to 2004, said the “crisis isn’t unexpected. It came much later than I thought.”

The euro project is “half baked,” he said in an April 20 telephone interview. “You cannot have a monetary policy without coordination in fiscal and economic policy, because otherwise you will have problems.”

The budgetary lapses cloud EU efforts to quell Greece’s crisis and prevent a stampede by speculators against Portugal as well. Germany, for example, is again pressing for curbs on deficits as long as its own economy escapes closer oversight.

‘Fractious Mobilization’

Bickering over Greece, exacerbated by Germany overruling French opposition to making the International Monetary Fund part of a rescue, contributed to the euro’s slide this year against the dollar. Moody’s Investors Service cited the “fractious mobilization” of EU support as a reason why it cut Greece’s credit rating on April 22.

Spain, France and Germany have scoffed at a May 12 EU Commission proposal for more coordination of taxing and spending plans before they are voted on by national parliaments. The commission also urged more “expeditious” enforcement of the deficit rules, without calling for tougher fines on violators.


“The old idea that you discuss with peers your budgetary plans before they’re announced is very difficult to implement,” said Jean Pisani-Ferry, a Maastricht-era EU economic adviser who now runs the Bruegel research institute in Brussels. “It runs up against the politics.”
 

Ripclawe

Banned
http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...-gain-on-speculation-crisis-to-sink-euro.html

U.S. two-year notes had their first three-week winning streak since January as demand for the safest assets rose on speculation Europe’s sovereign-debt crisis will damp growth and lead to disintegration of the euro.

Treasuries, which fell the most in nine months May 10 after European leaders announced an almost $1 trillion bailout plan, climbed yesterday even as reports showed America’s economic recovery is building momentum. The euro dropped to its weakest level since 2008, and stocks plunged. A report next week is forecast to show U.S. consumer prices rose 0.1 percent in April.

“There is a flight to quality emanating from the issues coming from Europe and the viability of their monetary union going forward,” said Christopher Sullivan, who oversees $1.6 billion as chief investment officer at United Nations Federal Credit Union in New York. “The market has looked past the short-term liquidity solution of last weekend and is looking to the long-term structural issues.”
 

Furoba

Member
Ripclawe said:

You bolded the wrong part.

U.S. two-year notes had their first three-week winning streak since January as demand for the safest assets rose on speculation Europe’s sovereign-debt crisis will damp growth and lead to disintegration of the euro.

Treasuries, which fell the most in nine months May 10 after European leaders announced an almost $1 trillion bailout plan, climbed yesterday even as reports showed America’s economic recovery is building momentum. The euro dropped to its weakest level since 2008, and stocks plunged. A report next week is forecast to show U.S. consumer prices rose 0.1 percent in April.

“There is a flight to quality emanating from the issues coming from Europe and the viability of their monetary union going forward,” said Christopher Sullivan, who oversees $1.6 billion as chief investment officer at United Nations Federal Credit Union in New York. “The market has looked past the short-term liquidity solution of last weekend and is looking to the long-term structural issues.”
 

Meadows

Banned
Yeahhhh

british-pound.jpg
 

Alx

Member
The saddest thing about the current situation is that even if there are big difficulties coming from the financial state of the countries, the real danger comes from the market speculating on a European failure to make money. The stock market is self-destructive. It's not about proposing solutions to the debt problem, but convincing the speculators not to attack your economy once you've shown a weakness. Disgusting.
 

Culex

Banned
Norwegian Wood said:
Could be epic , even more so than the fall of the USSR.

If the Euro implodes, what will happen to Europe and the countries that are part of the Union? I don't want to think about THAT outcome!
 

Walshicus

Member
How many of these threads you going to post?


EDIT: Anyone seen that Charlie Brooker bit about how the media and vested interests create and propagate "news" for ratings and influence?
 

Veidt

Blasphemer who refuses to accept bagged milk as his personal savior
Sir Fragula said:
How many of these threads you going to post?


EDIT: Anyone seen that Charlie Brooker bit about how the media and vested interests create and propagate "news" for ratings and influence?
link please?

Sounds interesting.
 

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
UK = geniuses.

Why put your combined wealth with countries far poorer than your own?

what benefit, if any, did Germany get out of this? Number 3 (?) world economy being dragged down with a bunch of mid-majors. It would be like Notre Dame saying no to the Big 10's invite and then signing with the Sun Belt Conference.
 

Walshicus

Member
AlteredBeast said:
UK = geniuses.

Why put your combined wealth with countries far poorer than your own?

what benefit, if any, did Germany get out of this? Number 3 (?) world economy being dragged down with a bunch of mid-majors. It would be like Notre Dame saying no to the Big 10's invite and then signing with the Sun Belt Conference.
A 5 to 10% increase in intra-EU trade, 5% increase in physical investment?
 
AlteredBeast said:
UK = geniuses.

Why put your combined wealth with countries far poorer than your own?

what benefit, if any, did Germany get out of this? Number 3 (?) world economy being dragged down with a bunch of mid-majors. It would be like Notre Dame saying no to the Big 10's invite and then signing with the Sun Belt Conference.
damn well said.
 

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
AlteredBeast said:
UK = geniuses.

Why put your combined wealth with countries far poorer than your own?

what benefit, if any, did Germany get out of this? Number 3 (?) world economy being dragged down with a bunch of mid-majors. It would be like Notre Dame saying no to the Big 10's invite and then signing with the Sun Belt Conference.
Let's ignore the fact that Germany's global weight (political and economic) owes a lot to its involvement in the creation of the EU.

God, some people.
 

Raydeen

Member
Social engineering overlords of the EU will happily let anyone into the eurozone, regardless of it sinking the entire scheme. Their egos are just too big to admit defeat and caution. Hope this entire thing sinks Turkey's chance.
 

1-D_FTW

Member
AlteredBeast said:
UK = geniuses.

Why put your combined wealth with countries far poorer than your own?

what benefit, if any, did Germany get out of this? Number 3 (?) world economy being dragged down with a bunch of mid-majors. It would be like Notre Dame saying no to the Big 10's invite and then signing with the Sun Belt Conference.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/237804

The newsweek article makes similar mention to the whole post-Nazi Germany thing. I didn't think that shadow was still following them, but it apparently had a ton to do with it.
 

Deku

Banned
Raydeen said:
Social engineering overlords of the EU will happily let anyone into the eurozone, regardless of it sinking the entire scheme. Their egos are just too big to admit defeat and caution. Hope this entire thing sinks Turkey's chance.

Yea Turkey seems completely out of the question at this point. Not to mention their latent desire to became the Ottoman empire again.
 

ksan

Member
The Euro sucks!
So does the Dollar! Give every state different currencies!
While we are at it, why not every single city in the world?
I mean, every place needs to be able to adjust the currency to accommodate for the current needs!
 
giga said:
:lol The euro isn’t going anywhere. Speculative FUD.

This. But the Euro is going to continue to tank against the dollar for a while...and I have no complaints over that.

EU governments will probably panic and try to reverse it, which they shouldn't. We need to stop interfering w/ the markets so god damn much.
 
bionic77 said:
Don't UKers find it annoying walk around with so many coins in their wallet? I much prefer a note for the 1 and 2 dollar/pound instead of a coin.
i would also prefer notes instead of 1 and 2 euro coins.
 

loosus

Banned
Could be epic , even more so than the fall of the USSR
Not even close. The "integration" of the Euro is not even in the same league as the USSR.

The euro isn’t going anywhere. Speculative FUD.
Actually, if you read the article, you'll see that they're not talking so much about the complete disintegration of it so much as they're realistically talking about potentially booting certain countries that perpetually cannot get their house of cards in order.
 
N

NinjaFridge

Unconfirmed Member
bionic77 said:
Don't UKers find it annoying walk around with so many coins in their wallet? I much prefer a note for the 1 and 2 dollar/pound instead of a coin.

Coins in wallet? Coins go in pocket.
 

Deku

Banned
Thagomizer said:
The US is comparatively frugal on the world scale.

Not with the way it's been spending lately. But of course that isn't the real problem, its that when the times are good, the political impetus to stop spending and refraining from pointless wars isn't there.

Either way, the US is hovering at aorund 70% debt to GDP, and the gloomiest projection is to have it at 120% debt to GDP by 2050, due largely to health care spending on the aging boomers and that country's fundamentally profit driven system.

That said debt to GDP ratio isn't the be all and end all. There's a tipping point where the interest on the debt becomes a huge burden on the economy and that can be calculated but the fundamentals behind the economy backing the debt, the tax collections, the future prospects for growth, the capital stock, etc. all factor in.

So Greece's 120% debt to GDP ratio =! Japan's 170% which is not the same as the US's 70%
 

avaya

Member
The reality of what is going?

It has nothing to do with deficits. They are temporary.

It has nothing to do with national debt. It has always existed and been at far greater %'s of GDP than what we see today, the hysteria over it is absolutely comical.

It has everything to do with speculative demand reflected in synthetic instruments that serve no purpose but to exacerbate risk and allow the shadow system to extort countries to a degree which is now out of control.

George Soros does not need money to bet against the Euro any more. All he needs are synthetic positions, completely naked synthetic euroshorts.

There is an absolutely massive speculative demand for crises.

The solution?

Not to dissolve EMU. People arguing for it are ideologues and fantasists.

Not austerity by itself.

No, it has nothing to do with any of that.

Larger institutions can create more synethic positions overnight than any government can print money. This has got to stop.

Governments need to wake up.

New capital requirements. Stop the fuckers taking naked OTC positions. No lawmaker in Europe realises this yet. The US too is bumbling along although Blankfein pretty much spelled out what needs to be done right now during the Goldman senate hearing. No one is fucking listening.

You do nothing, this "contagion" - it really is no such thing, will see the pack move to the next country on the list. US and Japan within the next year. It is absolute madness.
 

Deku

Banned
Euro is overpriced. Which we've known for sometime.

I do agree on the point that in markets, pack mentality pervades, and you're describing pack behavior, which can be quite destructive.

Though it's very unlikely the Euro will fail, the article is describing the politics of ejecting laggards who shouldn't be in the Euro from the currency. Joining a monetary union has a lot more to it than changing out the bank notes and the currency symbol the ticker.

That's the fundamental issue behind the Euro. Speculators, and arbitrageurs will take positions when they feel there is an imbalance.
 
elrechazao said:
US is spending like greece was, it's only a matter of time now...

haha. no.

We maintain relatively stable GDP growth, and borrow at an extremely low rate. Furthermore, our currency can float on its own.. so we have many more options than Greece does.


Good post avaya.
 

avaya

Member
Deku said:
Euro is overpriced. Which we've known for sometime.

I do agree on the point that in markets, pack mentality pervades, and you're describing pack behavior, which can be quite destructive.

Though it's very unlikely the Euro will fail, the article is describing the politics of ejecting laggards who shouldn't be in the Euro from the currency. Joining a monetary union has a lot more to it than changing out the bank notes and the currency symbol the ticker.

That's the fundamental issue behind the Euro. Speculators, and arbitrageurs will take positions when they feel there is an imbalance.

You don't understand. Pack behaviour has always existed. That is not what the problem is. It is not an issue dominated by economics any more.

Very few people realise what is actually going on.

Speculators now have power that far exceeds the combined might of all of the world's governments.

These days instruments exist which allows them to create money out of nothing, something which only governments could only do before. That ability needs to be stopped.

The CDS traders hold all the cards and them some. This is not the traditional battle anymore. Till you make them put up the cash for the game they're playing they will continue unabated.
 

Deku

Banned
avaya said:
You don't understand. Pack behaviour has always existed. That is not what the problem is. It is not an issue dominated by economics any more.

Very few people realise what is actually going on.

Speculators now have power that far exceeds the combined might of all of the world's governments.

These days instruments exist which allows them to create money out of nothing, something which only governments could only do before. That ability needs to be stopped.

The CDS traders hold all the cards and them some. This is not the traditional battle anymore. Till you make them put up the cash for the game they're playing they will continue unabated.

I'm not arguing against oversight or more transparency.

But I'm not sure how you're going to regulate speculating. that too has always existed.

You're line of thought is dangerous insofar as it allows countries like Greece to pawn off total responsibility to the big US banks and 'speculators', when the anatomy of the crisis seems straightforward enough. And in hindsight, it appears the EU's own manifest destiny has had a hand to play in this, over German objections no less.
 
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