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[Flynn]

I refuse to play Yspahan because it's kind of broken. Basically an unchallenged player can cycle through the card deck and manipulate the supervisor to get lots of cubes on to the caravan track, then just rinse and repeat and score a bunch of points again and again when the track clears. He totally ignores the shop scoring on the main board. The guy who did that completely obliterated the rest of us by getting twice as many points as the person that came in second. I think games like Yspahan in which someone can win employing just one aspect of the gameplay is poorly designed, that is why I rated Yspahan a 5.

Interesting. I played the same strategy and the game was close -- a six or seven point spread.

EDIT: The more I think about it the more I focus on the "unchallenged" part. I'm not sure its fair to call the game is broken if you guys weren't moving the the supervisor away from his shops. Or filling the caravan with your own goods.

 

[aphoushole]

I would guess my question is more directed towards Fragamemnon than anyone else. What would you say is the most complicated and/or largest (board size or whatever) wargame that you know of or played?

 

[FnordChan]

I would guess my question is more directed towards Fragamemnon than anyone else. What would you say is the most complicated and/or largest (board size or whatever) wargame that you know of or played?

I'm not Frag, but two games (with the caveat that I haven't actually played either one myself) come to mind. The first is World In Flames, a strategic level WWII game that, as advertised, covers the entire planet. I knew some folks who played weekly for a year and a half and only got up to 1941 or so. The running joke was that if they were to include all of the expansions (including Days of Decision the political supplement to WiF) and play every single weekend it would take longer to play the game than the war itself. WiF has been around for a while so there may be something even more complicated now available, but if so I haven't heard about it. That's not saying much, mind you; I yield completely to Frag's expertise in this area.

On the other end of the spectrum there's Advanced Squad Leader, a squad level (duh) WWII game that contains exhaustive rules for virtually every possibility you could think of at that level of play. They way ASL works is that you buy a large binder (around 250 pages) that contains the rules and then buy scenario modules from there. My understanding is that you don't actually need to absorb the entire book before playing, but that you get the basics down (running, shooting, taking cover, and so forth) and then add rules (visibility at night, small vehicles, etc.) depending on the scenario you're playing. It's not that playing ASL takes terribly long - I believe games generally take 3-4 hours - it's just that the rules, if not complicated per se, are incredibly detailed, up to and including the infamous Sewer Emergence Chart. No, really. I'd actually like to try ASL sometime, but I don't know anyone who could teach me off-hand. Well, I may be free for DixieCon here in Chapel Hill next year, so maybe I could talk someone into taking pity on a newbie then.

FnordChan

 

[aphoushole]

I'm not Frag, but two games (with the caveat that I haven't actually played either one myself) come to mind. The first is World In Flames, a strategic level WWII game that, as advertised, covers the entire planet. I knew some folks who played weekly for a year and a half and only got up to 1941 or so. The running joke was that if they were to include all of the expansions (including Days of Decision the political supplement to WiF) and play every single weekend it would take longer to play the game than the war itself. WiF has been around for a while so there may be something even more complicated now available, but if so I haven't heard about it. That's not saying much, mind you; I yield completely to Frag's expertise in this area.

On the other end of the spectrum there's Advanced Squad Leader, a squad level (duh) WWII game that contains exhaustive rules for virtually every possibility you could think of at that level of play. They way ASL works is that you buy a large binder (around 250 pages) that contains the rules and then buy scenario modules from there. My understanding is that you don't actually need to absorb the entire book before playing, but that you get the basics down (running, shooting, taking cover, and so forth) and then add rules (visibility at night, small vehicles, etc.) depending on the scenario you're playing. It's not that playing ASL takes terribly long - I believe games generally take 3-4 hours - it's just that the rules, if not complicated per se, are incredibly detailed, up to and including the infamous Sewer Emergence Chart. No, really. I'd actually like to try ASL sometime, but I don't know anyone who could teach me off-hand. Well, I may be free for DixieCon here in Chapel Hill next year, so maybe I could talk someone into taking pity on a newbie then.

FnordChan

That's some really cool stuff. I don't know how the average person could have enough space for WiF. ASL sounds like it would interesting, though I would probably have a hard time getting the hang of it.

I was also wondering what your (or Frag's) take on Tide of Iron is. As far as wargames go it looks well produced.

 

[BattleMonkey]

ASL is a pain in the ass to play. So many friggin modules and rule updates constantly comes up that to keep up with other players is a nightmare, and the game itself is a bit overly complex, but what the people who play like. If your new to the game your in for a world of hurt, it's not something you can easily jump into.

 

[Qaz Kwaz]

So I am planing on getting The Last Night On Earth and Settlers of Catan.

I think my dudes and me need something a little bit more relaxing than D&D, not so complicated and we are getting tired of RISK.

What do you think?

I love LNOE. The gameplay is fun and nowhere near as complicated as D&D, but still complex enough to allow for a good amount of strategy. Once you get rolling a round with two people will probably take about 5-10 minutes.

 

[FnordChan]

That's some really cool stuff. I don't know how the average person could have enough space for WiF.

WiF requires a dedicated table. The group I knew played in a small room in the back of a local game store where it stayed set up, with a large piece of plexiglass over it when not in use, for the aforementioned 18 months or so. One of the owners was playing so they didn't have to worry about it being taken down. Then there's the guy on BGG with the bright idea of putting it up on a wall with a metal surface by putting magnets on the whole damn game, which is a pretty impressive feat.

I was also wondering what your (or Frag's) take on Tide of Iron is. As far as wargames go it looks well produced.

I'm afraid I can't say myself, as I'm not a wargamer. Hopefully Frag or someone can step in with an opinion. Alternately, poke around the entry for Tide of Iron on boardgamegeek.com and see what folks there have to say.

FnordChan

 

[Fragamemnon]

I would guess my question is more directed towards Fragamemnon than anyone else. What would you say is the most complicated and/or largest (board size or whatever) wargame that you know of or played?

In terms of raw table space, DAK2 or This Hallowed Groundis the biggest game. I think that in terms of complexity of rules it's either Europa Universalis or, as much as I sort of hate to admit it, the much more recent Fields of Fire, which I can only play in two hour bursts before wanting to stab myself due to constant rules and errata lookups for all of the exception cases ( it's still a very good game though, and I'm hopeful that a rules rewrite underway will clear things up some).

Complex and huge aren't hand in hand when it comes to wargaming. Huge "monster" games like DAK2 and Case Blue actually move pretty well when playing in teams and have very good, mature rulesets that are consistent and tables and charts on the player aids that are well laid out and prevent constant need for rulebook lookups. On the other hand, Fields of Fire takes up the space of maybe 1/2 of ONE of DAK2's maps but even makes me cringe a bit because of the rules when playing. ASL, similarly, is more itimidating on the rules size than the actual play area.

That's some really cool stuff. I don't know how the average person could have enough space for WiF.

You basically need a dedicated man-cave at that point. You'll have to leave it up for a long time, too. Games like that are either better played a) by experienced people in multiple-day marathons until one side concedes (such as at conventions) or b) via Cyberboard/VASSAL and by email.

I was also wondering what your (or Frag's) take on Tide of Iron is. As far as wargames go it looks well produced.

I haven't played that yet, but I can vouch for its direct competitor-Conflict of Heroes as being a great introductory choice that seems to be more "wargamey" while, at the same time, having apparently a better set of rules, better balanced scenarios, and is a very well respected game even among the most surly of grognards despite its position as an accessible intro game. Another option, if you're willing to take on a slight bit more complexity and deal with less fancy components (the Conflict of Heroes production values are crazy good), would be Combat Commander: Europe which is IMO the best of the "modern" platoon/company level combat games.


I think at this point the biggest reason to play ASL would be that you know of other people playing ASL already (it has a large fan base, the biggest for a single game in all of wargaming ) in your community and finding live opponents to play with face to face might be easier than one of the other games. And when it comes to wargaming, finding people to play with regularly is a big, big deal-it's not like the regular mainstream board game market where there's a game night for Euros every week at multiple places in town. It's also harder to convince people to learn how to play a wargame than it is something simpler.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Tide of Iron is more like Memoir 44 than Conflict of Heroes which is close to a simpler ASL. Tide of Iron is a very simplified war game that is basically like Memoir 44 extreme.

Tide of Iron is not bad, but problem we have had with the game is the set up time for a single scenario can take a long time. Almost feels like you spend more time setting up the board and pieces than actually playing the game.

 

[Flynn]

Tide of Iron is more like Memoir 44 than Conflict of Heroes which is close to a simpler ASL. Tide of Iron is a very simplified war game that is basically like Memoir 44 extreme.

Tide of Iron is not bad, but problem we have had with the game is the set up time for a single scenario can take a long time. Almost feels like you spend more time setting up the board and pieces than actually playing the game.

I talked a bit with some guys from FFG about Memoir 44. I figured that since they were starting to do Battlelore stuff they might eventually release some Memoir stuff. But they attitude seems to be that Tide of Iron already covers that base.

 

[Neverfade]

I played a game of Memoir the other day with my roommate.

I think it's luster is starting to wear for me. There's something to be said about inherent simplicity (I like Heroscape, after all), but something about Memoir makes me yearn for more. I might have to go ToI soon.

 

[AstroLad]

Go with Conflict of Heroes.

 

[Neverfade]

Go with Conflict of Heroes.

But I'm a whore for nice FFG components!

 

[BattleMonkey]

But I'm a whore for nice FFG components!

Then your gonna want TOI.

Conflict of Heroes is a good game, but the production values obviously pale in comparison and is more akin to the old style hardcore wargames.

 

[AstroLad]

CoH looks absolutely great

Spoiler

for a wargame

.

 

[Neverfade]

Wargames are pretty much my kryptonite. I stay far away.

I may try CoH down the road. I really like action point spending mechanics. But I have MEQ, CitOW, and BSG expansion to worry about right now!

 

[platypotamus]

I, on the other hand, very much prefer the more subtle aggression of non-wargames for some reason.

 

[aphoushole]

Sounds like I should give CoH a shot at least. I'm sort of interested in the BSG board game purely because of the co-op and especially the intrigue aspects of the game. The fact that it's based on BSG is sort of holding me back because I've never watched anything to do with the show (would like to at least try it out sometime).

Speaking of sci-fi board games, are there any sci-fi themed wargames?

 

[Fragamemnon]

Speaking of sci-fi board games, are there any sci-fi themed wargames?

Starfleet Battles immediately comes to mind. Ad Astra has some games that are scifi-wargamey mostly set in Weber's Honorverse.

For lighter fare, Hasbro/"new" AH has a released game called Nexus Ops which seems pretty popular.

Scifi and Fantasy wargames have never been very popular because a big part of wargaming is the simulation of the events and outcomes such that the results of the game are historically plausible. Hard to fit that parameter into a scifi/fantasy setting.

 

[AstroLad]

Is it historically plausible that Luke Skywalker could kick Captain Kirk's ass?

 

[aphoushole]

Scifi and Fantasy wargames have never been very popular because a big part of wargaming is the simulation of the events and outcomes such that the results of the game are historically plausible. Hard to fit that parameter into a scifi/fantasy setting.

That's the reason why I asked.

I think it would be awesome to see a wargame that spanned between planets (e.g., Mars and Earth, or Moon and Earth, etc.).

Is it historically plausible that Luke Skywalker could kick Captain Kirk's ass?

There is no plausibility in that scenario, just fact. Historical fact.

 

[AstroLad]

Improved Logistics is such a fucked-up card when you have a military tableau. Just throwin that out there.

 

[platypotamus]

Improved Logistics is such a fucked-up card when you have a military tableau. Just throwin that out there.

It really is. I played a two player game earlier with that combo, and double settled to get four planets in my tableau and end the game.

One of them was the 7 point Rebel world too.

 

[AstroLad]

It really is. I played a two player game earlier with that combo, and double settled to get four planets in my tableau and end the game.

One of them was the 7 point Rebel world too.

Yup, had a very similar game just now. There really is nothing you can do. Although building a mining conglomerate without any rare worlds on the board or coming up is definitely something you should not do.

EDIT: Whoo finally made it to 1600. Ok done now.

 

[BattleMonkey]

CoH looks absolutely great

Spoiler

for a wargame

.

You want good looking wargames, you play tabletop miniature games. Flames of War, Uncharted Seas, AT-43, Warhammers, etc, etc.

 

[Neverfade]

The fact that it's based on BSG is sort of holding me back because I've never watched anything to do with the show (would like to at least try it out sometime).

For sure watch the show sometime, but not seeing it isn't a huge factor in enjoying the game. I swears it.

 

[Neverfade]

Funny we were just talking about ToI. Apparently its now in development for XBLA.

 

[Zalasta]

Interesting. I played the same strategy and the game was close -- a six or seven point spread.

EDIT: The more I think about it the more I focus on the "unchallenged" part. I'm not sure its fair to call the game is broken if you guys weren't moving the the supervisor away from his shops. Or filling the caravan with your own goods.

The problem with that is it's not totally free to move the supervisor. Therefore, if I have no interest in putting my guys from the shops into the caravan track or if I have no camels to do so, why would I intentionally mess with the supervisor? If a game is designed well, one should be able to remain competitive in scoring no matter which aspect of the gameplay you wish to employ, yet it's not the case in Yspahan. The caravan strategy will pretty much always beat any other strategy. The game I referred to, my friend came in first with a ridiculous 150+ points, everyone else was in the double digits. I'm sorry but that kind of parity in score is not acceptable and completely soured me on the game. It's ridiculous how you can abuse the caravan track.

Honestly though, I hope you never find out how it works, that way you can go on and still be able to enjoy the game.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Funny we were just talking about ToI. Apparently its now in development for XBLA.

Yea FFG is trying to get bunch of it's games on Live / PSN, etc. Wings of War is also supposed to be in the works and some others.

 

[AstroLad]

Anyone up for some Race at :15? Been too long.

 

[Flynn]

Anyone up for some Race at :15? Been too long.

I'm in.

 

[Flynn]

Yea FFG is trying to get bunch of it's games on Live / PSN, etc. Wings of War is also supposed to be in the works and some others.

I'm pretty sure the dev house in Wisconsin that was working on Wings for them folded.

 

[AstroLad]

That sucks. Hope they stick with the strategy though, board games are perfect for XBLA. For example, RftG on XBLA all dolled up would be wonderful. Also RoboRally as I've been requesting to no one in particular since forever.

So far got a 2p RftG for :15.

 

[AstroLad]

Alright mano a mano, the way it's meant to be.

 

[platypotamus]

I'd make a version of RoboRally in Flash or something, if it wasn't one of those projects doomed to get my pants sued off me.

 

[Flynn]

Don't we have a lawyer in here. It can't be that hard to negotiate the rights to adapt a game to the web / XBLA.

My vote goes to For Sale. Its fast like Uno and would introduce videogamers to the auction mechanic. Nobody does live auctioning over XBLA yet do they?

 

[AstroLad]

I love For Sale, but don't you think it would be too simple for a full release on XBLA?

I'll help you do a deal to get the web-game rights to RR!

I know GTO has RR online, but don't think they're exclusive though. You could also always just use the rules and none of the IP.

 

[Flynn]

I love For Sale, but don't you think it would be too simple for a full release on XBLA?

I'll help you do a deal to get the web-game rights to RR!

I know GTO has RR online, but don't think they're exclusive though. You could also always just use the rules and none of the IP.

That's the thing. Just look at UNO. Its so simple but people love it.

I think if you wanted you could make achievements that add goals, like racking up certain amounts of money. Having bought every property etc.

Then, if you wanted to get really fancy you could add some kind of RPG element or even a house upgrading system -- where all the profits you make in your matches can be spent on items to decorate your house.

Still, I think a bare-bones version of the game at under $10 would be hot.

BTW. New Planeswalker XBLA expansion getting unveiled at PAX.

 

[AstroLad]

Yeah, Uno definitely crossed my mind, but so did Lost Cities. :/

Nice news about Duels--bout time! Funny that and Peggle Nights XBLA get announced around the same time, when I've been clamoring for both for a while.

 

[platypotamus]

I'll help you do a deal to get the web-game rights to RR!

I know GTO has RR online, but don't think they're exclusive though. You could also always just use the rules and none of the IP.

If you can figure something out, I'm serious, I could make it my next project. It could probably re-use a lot of code from my current project, actually...

 

[platypotamus]

Tough break for me last night. Last place in a 4 player game of Dominion, but only lost by 2 points! (22-21-21-20 were the scores).

Especially annoying considering my last turn I got 13 points (throne room + remodel + 2 golds = 2 provinces, + silver for an estate).

 

[Cyan]

Why is Genie always down when I actually want to play it? :/

 

[Flynn]

Why is Genie always down when I actually want to play it? :/

I'm considering becoming a donor.

The guy needs to make the game asynchronous. 500 people hitting F5 all day must be hell on his bandwidth.

 

[ultron87]

So my friends and I have been greatly enjoying the base Munchkin game. The sheer entertainment of constantly screwing your friends over is quite entertaining. Turning my friend's encounter with a Level 1 Potted Plant that would've won him the game into an encounter with a Level 20 Plutonium Dragon and then forcing him to reroll his escape roll causing him to get eaten, was probably one of the best moments in a game I've had in awhile.

I've been looking at the copious number of expansions that exist for the game and was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for which one to pick up. From a bit of reading it looks like Munchkin 4 actually adds new game mechanics (steeds and hirelings) instead of just adding new classes/races like 2 & 3. So I've been thinking of picking this one up. Any experience with any of these from anyone?

 

[Neverfade]

So my friends and I have been greatly enjoying the base Munchkin game. The sheer entertainment of constantly screwing your friends over is quite entertaining. Turning my friend's encounter with a Level 1 Potted Plant that would've won him the game into an encounter with a Level 20 Plutonium Dragon and then forcing him to reroll his escape roll causing him to get eaten, was probably one of the best moments in a game I've had in awhile.

I've been looking at the copious number of expansions that exist for the game and was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for which one to pick up. From a bit of reading it looks like Munchkin 4 actually adds new game mechanics (steeds and hirelings) instead of just adding new classes/races like 2 & 3. So I've been thinking of picking this one up. Any experience with any of these from anyone?

I don't think you'll find much munchkin love around here....

 

[Cyan]

Anyone up for a game at :30, in about ten minutes?

 

[AstroLad]

Yeah I'm down dog. I may have to Usain at some point but I'll post in game if so.

 

[Cyan]

Cool. I'll probably just start a 2-player then, unless someone else pokes their head in, in the next few minutes.

 

[AstroLad]

ah ok got in

 

[Cyan]

Man, close at the end there. GG.