Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
It's a manifestation of a fundamental difference in their personalities.
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Bojack Horseman Season 4 |OT| Fuck Man, What Else Is There To Say
- Thread starter TheGreatDirector
- Start date
It's a manifestation of a fundamental difference in their personalities.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
It's a show with a fairly limited set up - there's only so much back and forth the characters can experience before it starts to get repetitive, which it unfortunately has this year. Rather than watch a show that I used to love descend further into mediocrity, I'd rather they end things on a high note while they still can (almost every show gets weaker the longer it goes on, and the likelihood of a show making a rebound once the decline begins decreases with every subsequent year).
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Never fails to amuse me the disconnect between something I enjoy and Gaf's reaction!
Thought this was probably the 2nd strongest season next to 3. It's only got better for me.
Thought this was probably the 2nd strongest season next to 3. It's only got better for me.
I was starting to feel that way when S3 ended, but S4 took things in a different direction rather than just being another case of Bojack doing a thing he thought would make him happy, fucking up royally and ending up miserable and depressed. I don't think this is the kind of show that can continue indefinitely without eventually burning out, but I'm sure the talent working on it knows that. I doubt it'll become another Simpsons or Community.
Season 4 is the best one imo, if any season deserved to be called repetitive it was season 3, which retraced a lot of the same ground as season 2. The way this season looked at time and how it affects us was brilliant and was worked in in a very clever way. The conclusion literally being called "What Time is it Right Now" was a final great touch. After all, "It doesn't matter what we did in the past, or how we'll be remembered. The only thing that matters is this one spectacular moment we are sharing together."
Kate Purdy writing episode 1 of the next season is huge. She wrote episode 2 and 11 of this season.
Messofanego
Banned
I love this line in episode 2 on men not being able to deal with women's emotions
manfestival
Member
Well that was a pretty deep season. I love this show.
Well, um... Bojack Horseman finally made me cry. That stuff with Beatrice's dementia coming in full force at the end of her episode, followed-up by Bojack helping her imagine she's in a better place just hit hard. They almost got me again with Hollyhock identifying that Bojack's still her family (I don't know if it took me too long to catch onto that; I didn't realize it until Butterscotch revealed Henrietta was pregnant).
It's weird to see an ending that mostly was just sweet, & not bittersweet. I mean, Diane & Mr. Peanutbutter considering divorce is definitely a big deal, but Bojack, Princess Caroline, & Todd all feel happy, & seem to be at points where they can probably talk to each other again due to their growth (Calling it now, next season has a joke about odd living on Princess Caroline's couch instead of Bojack's, with call-backs to that living arrangement until one or the other eventually moves out). That said, the character growth seems earned.
As for Season 5? Season 4 didn't show any signs of slowing down for me, so I'm happy to see another season. But I know a lot of shows tend to lose steam around this point. If the creative team can keep Bojack going, I'm in. But I'm also fine if this ends up being the last season, too. Even though I know it'll probably take a dud season to stop a show like this.
EDIT: And chiming in with the Todd stuff, I'm in the boat where I don't think it was planned from Day 1, but it still fits the character. The scam artist & the mouse were the only times he seemed attracted to anyone, & those seemed more about his ego & her personality, respectively.
It's weird to see an ending that mostly was just sweet, & not bittersweet. I mean, Diane & Mr. Peanutbutter considering divorce is definitely a big deal, but Bojack, Princess Caroline, & Todd all feel happy, & seem to be at points where they can probably talk to each other again due to their growth (Calling it now, next season has a joke about odd living on Princess Caroline's couch instead of Bojack's, with call-backs to that living arrangement until one or the other eventually moves out). That said, the character growth seems earned.
As for Season 5? Season 4 didn't show any signs of slowing down for me, so I'm happy to see another season. But I know a lot of shows tend to lose steam around this point. If the creative team can keep Bojack going, I'm in. But I'm also fine if this ends up being the last season, too. Even though I know it'll probably take a dud season to stop a show like this.
EDIT: And chiming in with the Todd stuff, I'm in the boat where I don't think it was planned from Day 1, but it still fits the character. The scam artist & the mouse were the only times he seemed attracted to anyone, & those seemed more about his ego & her personality, respectively.
I love this line in episode 2 on men not being able to deal with women's emotions
Beatrice's father is an absolute monster, and he's completely oblivious to that fact.
NoctisVsStar
Member
I loved that moment Bojack and PC had... Man she was my favorite character this season.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
She's the low-key MVP of the series.
I finally watched the last episode 2 nights ago. I gotta say, though I always really enjoyed the show I never really connected with it's deeper stuff, though I appreciated it it never really hit with me.
The episode with his mother's flashbacks though, fucking hell I cried at the very end of that, cut straight through me. Was about 2 weeks before I finally finished the season.
The episode with his mother's flashbacks though, fucking hell I cried at the very end of that, cut straight through me. Was about 2 weeks before I finally finished the season.
B-B-Bomba!
Member
Just wanted to say this show is almost single handedly nursing me through an astronomically painful break up. Currently early on in season 2
Anyway
Edit: what a stupid adjective to use. Astronomy and magnitude are unrelated.
Anyway
Edit: what a stupid adjective to use. Astronomy and magnitude are unrelated.
Diane can't deal with the fact that she's a bad person herself, se usually surrounds herself with people she thinks are lesser (ie, Mr. PB is dumber than her so she feels smart, Bojack is a shit person so it makes her feel validated about her morality) but she always cracks when she's not "the best", she cracked when Irving was "better at feminism", she cracked when St. Clair was "better at activism" and she cracks every time Mr. PB does these amazing, romantic and sweet gestures, because she is reminded that she doesn't deserved them. She's so addicted to be the moral high ground that she's often willing to hurt her husband's career (on tv or politics) just for that rush of superiority, she basically can't deal with the fact that she might be the problem.
Diane is the least redeemable character of the entire show because she doesn't know she's a terrible person. The funeral episode highlighted this very clearly.
What the fuck? Diane is written realistically and she has her own share of problems and insecurities, but this is very much painting the door black with her character. I genuinely don't remember what happened with Irving or what "better at feminism" is even supposed to mean, and I don't have the time to rewatch the episode right now, so I can't defend that one, but the other examples here are being drastically misrepresented.
Her relationship with Bojack is complicated in that they use each other as emotional crutches, but to imply that she is exploiting Bojack is wrong. They're just there for each other because they relate to each other's depression and insecurities. As a result, they understand each other very well, but outside of the first season where they're getting to know each other, I can't think of a single incident where either Bojack or Diane exploited their relationship with one another for some kind of power play, and most of those were from Bojack's side. When I see them interacting with each other, I don't get the sense that either is vying for a position of superiority. I certainly don't think Bojack would consider his life improved by Diane not being in it.
The other stuff comes off as even more ridiculous to me, especially St. Clair being "Better at activism". St. Clair didn't give a flying fuck about the people he was 'helping'. The visual gags of him are all about him throwing money and resources at people in need without caring whether they can actually use it. The most you can say about Diane is that her desire to help people was motivated by her own insecurities with her marriage and life in general rather than pure altruism. That's not malicious, it's just the struggle of a person who is trying to find themselves. She certainly didn't hurt anyone doing it, like St. Clair routinely does.
And as for Mr. PB, he's a very, very good boy, but that doesn't mean he's the right fit for Diane. People need to stop defending his "amazing, romantic and sweet gestures", because it's ignoring the fundamental fact that those gestures aren't things that make Diane comfortable, and after 3 seasons of her being his wife, he should know that by now. Mr. Peanutbutter isn't malicious, but these gestures are unintentionally selfish. They're things that he's doing to make himself feel that his relationship is more secure, but it only makes things worse because he's still at a point where he doesn't seem to consider what his wife thinks. That's a necessary aspect of doing something nice for someone: You need to know, for sure, that it's something the person wants. This was especially apparent in his stint in politics. You're suggesting that Diane is being selfish because she doesn't want to unconditionally support Mr. PB as governor when he'd be fucking awful at it? When he's actively wreaking havok in Diane's own life by fracking their backyard, destroying their home, and putting their entire state in jeapody with comedically tragic government misspending? She has no right to say "No" to any of this when none of it is something she wants and it's being forced on her?
And in any case, here's the actual problem: That time is spent trying to figure out who is the worst person at all. The characters here are written with very realistic emotional fault lines. They have vulnerabilities, insecurities, biases, blindspots. The flaws presented in the characters aren't about finding whoever is the shittiest person and then jeering at them because they suck. It's about these people learning to live with these things as they're constantly hurt by one thing and then the next. Life is an ocean in storm around them and they're just trying to hold on to their raft and make it through alive. Even if Diane was 'the worst'...and this reading is seems to be largely based on her not being a feel good happy spot for other characters to enjoy, apparently...all that means is that she'd be the most interesting character to watch. But I'd still say that goes to bojack, who has damaged far more lives in his wake than just about any other main character. Bojack has certainly exploited a far greater number of people for the sense of superiority you're attributing to Diane, with Todd being his most frequent crutch. But these all serve to make Bojack an interesting character to explore. They're positive things, in terms of reading the story. Much like how Diane's flaws are positive things about her as well.
Oh, you're ver right, perhaps my post comes off as if i didn't agree with you because i simplified and summarized everything in a tiny paragraph, but my take doesn't imply she' is neither the worst nor not realistically complicated.
I was precisely mentioning how Diane uses people as crutches.
And yes the joke was that St. Clair didn't really care, but Diane was faced with the actual hard work of being an activist (which St. Clair faces regardless of being a hypocrite who just wants browny points) Daine cracked because she couldn't put her money where her mouth is and she ditched the activism.
The stuff with Irving was that she was shocked that her progressive views were dwarfed by what the current generation's views are, and during the episode you see Diane being bothered by this until they bond over their adventure freeing Becca.
Also, this is not a race to find the most problematic character, in the greater scheme of thing Diane is technically still one of the better role models and more grounded characters in the show, but still one of her personal character flaws is that she somewhat realizes this and often refuses to concider she might be the problem, wrong or she should let things go.
That's her flaw, that doesn't mean suddenly everyone is better, it just means that's what she must work on and what lead up to her falling out with Mr. PB.
SuperBowser
Member
I'm surprised that people think Diane is the "bad guy" in the relationship. Mr PB has had his share of drawbacks.
- he constantly needs to be the centre of attention despite knowing Diane gets uncomfortable (throwing parties, recording their engagement, making big gestures)
- he made decisions in the last season that he should know Diane wouldn't like (running for governor, taking amoral political opinions, inviting unsavoury people into their home, destroying their home, ignoring her opinions)
- culmination of above, he constantly makes decisions to make himself feel better despite knowing it would affect Diane negatively
- he rarely shows empathy to Diane
This isn't to say Diane is blameless for their relationship difficulties but I'm perplexed why people think it's 100% her fault. It's never been portrayed that way.
- he constantly needs to be the centre of attention despite knowing Diane gets uncomfortable (throwing parties, recording their engagement, making big gestures)
- he made decisions in the last season that he should know Diane wouldn't like (running for governor, taking amoral political opinions, inviting unsavoury people into their home, destroying their home, ignoring her opinions)
- culmination of above, he constantly makes decisions to make himself feel better despite knowing it would affect Diane negatively
- he rarely shows empathy to Diane
This isn't to say Diane is blameless for their relationship difficulties but I'm perplexed why people think it's 100% her fault. It's never been portrayed that way.
The thing is, there is no "bad guy" to the relationship, that's why people are confused about Diane going "i can't take this anymore" at the moment she did.
Because any reasonable person would have ditched Mr. PB over the governor race, but she didn't, her breaking point was the Belle Room, this is why people are absolutely baffled about Diane wanting out and it requires more analysis of Diane to understand why that was the breaking point and not "this laundry list of very valid reasons that happened during the course of S4"
Because any reasonable person would have ditched Mr. PB over the governor race, but she didn't, her breaking point was the Belle Room, this is why people are absolutely baffled about Diane wanting out and it requires more analysis of Diane to understand why that was the breaking point and not "this laundry list of very valid reasons that happened during the course of S4"
SuperBowser
Member
Well it's a culmination of everything, isn't it? The straw that broke the camel's back. How can you not struggle in a relationship with someone that rarely shows empathy and constantly and repeatedly make decisions to make themselves feel good regardless of your own feelings.
King Gilga
Member
Amazing season. Loved it.
RespectThySole
Member
Yup. I need to do a rewatch soon
obijkenobi
Member
The premise of the show sounds incredibly dumb, but man, the writing and voice actors are amazing. The visual gags are top notch too and I love the animal puns.
I think after season 4, PC is my favorite character. The episode that centered on her was such a gut punch. If anyone deserves a happy ending, its her.
I liked the ending of the Mr. PB and Diane relationship. I saw some comments about the library being a weird ending point...I don't think it was. If you've been in enough long term relationships that fizzle out, sometimes there isn't a single traumatic event that ends things. Sometimes you float away/grow into different people or the small things add up to a large thing that ends the relationship. I think that was captured in that scene. What might have seem as seemingly minor differences in their outlook on life and how their conducted their relationship came to a head after a few seasons.
Todd was a big meh for me this season.
Was legit happy for Bojack at the end of the season. The framing and smile of his picture when he hears "I've never had a brother" was legit touching.
I think after season 4, PC is my favorite character. The episode that centered on her was such a gut punch. If anyone deserves a happy ending, its her.
I liked the ending of the Mr. PB and Diane relationship. I saw some comments about the library being a weird ending point...I don't think it was. If you've been in enough long term relationships that fizzle out, sometimes there isn't a single traumatic event that ends things. Sometimes you float away/grow into different people or the small things add up to a large thing that ends the relationship. I think that was captured in that scene. What might have seem as seemingly minor differences in their outlook on life and how their conducted their relationship came to a head after a few seasons.
Todd was a big meh for me this season.
Was legit happy for Bojack at the end of the season. The framing and smile of his picture when he hears "I've never had a brother" was legit touching.
RadioHeadAche
Member
I like when Todd is dealing with his new realization about himself, but the zany schemes are tiring now. Although, I did get a chuckle of him releasing the clowns into a forest instead of returning them to their lives.
PC is probably my favorite character as well. Though when she faked Bojack's signature it was a shit move. Things worked out in the end, though.
I wonder why they went with it, especially since some of them were actual dentists.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Exactly. Diane understands that, at points, they both work well together. It's just that "having good times" does not always mean marriage. Mr. PB understands this as well, and marriage to him has always been about proving to himself that "this one will work", hence his reaction to her crying.
Also, most people who have been in a relationship long enough have had their share of "What the hell just happened?" moments. Where you appear to be doing everything just right, and it suddenly all goes sideways for reasons you just can't understand. That's what made the scene so frustrating to watch.
I remember driving around the rural parts of GTA: San Andreas with that on the radio.
Didnt they already do something similar with Frank Hippopopolous, or am I just mis-remembering?
Forgot about that episode, you're right. Would be cool to see him again though.
obijkenobi
Member
Yeah. I felt that take was more directed at Bill Cosby, but I'm sure they could do a systemic episode
Yes, very much so. The creators intentionally made the first portion of season 1 misleading. Season 1's ending leading into season 2 shows what it really is.
Absolutely, the first episode in particular is not funny at all, but a few episodes in it clicks.
It's kinda very fucked up that even tho Frank was addressing the Cosby scandals, it still works perfectly as commentary on Weinstein.
harriet the spy
Member
Thanks, this is really interesting way to look at it.
It also makes me feel bad because for the most part I like Diane.
harriet the spy
Member
I really don't get why people like him so much. He drags down the show for me. Most of the humor surrounding him is painfully unfunny. I must be old.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
i really like the way everyone around todd engages with whatever ridiculous scheme he's currently living in -- on its own it can be a bit isn't this waaaAAAaacky, but I think in context it works well
I remember an interview when that season first came out where they said that it was inspired by multiple different people, including Cosby and David Letterman.
He used to be the perfect foil for Bojack -- a carefree personality unencumbered by the weight of self-loathing and emotional baggage, willing to help whoever, whenever, with whatever, and happily at that. He followed his dreams and desires, no matter how stupid or how stupid people might think they are, because he was at peace with himself.
The narrative path that Bojack eventually wore him down enough to have him finally walk away from the friendship was wonderfully constructed, and honestly, when Todd and him stopped being friends, he should have pretty much bounced from the show until he was needed again. The fact that they don't seem to know what to do with him shows he has outlived his usefulness.
I am not a fan of Todd in S4.
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