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[Gozan]

Wasn't Bonk known as PC Kid in some territories? (Or BC Kid when ported to other systems than PC Engine)

 

[BGBW]

Smh @ GAFers not even knowing the name Bonk.

 

[Celine]

Smh @ GAFers not even knowing the name Bonk.

Some gaffers didn't began playing until after the early '90s (or even much much latter like with Xbox 360, PS3 and Wii).

 

[Outrun]

After watching gameplay of Bonk online to try and understand why this thread was made... I don't understand why anyone in their right mind would pick Bonk. Hell, I don't even understand why anyone would remember Bonk.

White male privilege.

Spoiler

/s

 

[Synth]

There's alot LESS for the player to master as far as your skill set goes. Getting better at Sonic implies simply replaying it until you have a general understanding of how levels flow and a substantial dose of memorization, where as with Mario once you get used to how your character handles itself, you can breeze through most of it based purely on reactive platforming. Mario is elegant ballet. Sonic is panicked skidding at a frantic pace. Both are valid and fun, but there is both a higher ceiling and a lower floor for Mario.

No, there isn't a lot less to master.. and that's precisely why you can breeze through most of Mario once you get used to how he controls, because there's very, very little that can be learned beyond that. Once you know how to walk left, walk right, jump, duck and run jump... that's basically it. Everything else is pretty much difficulty imposed by the stage itself, not mastery of the mechanics. You may ballet comparisons as if elegance in Mario is of a high bar to attain (like if is in Sonic) where it's not. A more fitting comparison would be the running man, as despite some people being able to make it look better than others, everyone's doing the same damn dance, and they all nailed it in 30 seconds.

I see my Steve Reich analogy flew right by you. Let's attempt to rephrase it to accommodate this specific case... what you are saying is essentially the equivalent of what Dream Theater/Steve Vai/Satriani/etc fans say whenever their music is accused of being shallow and that is precisely the point. Overly complex sets of tools only serve to further box one in. To further flesh out the analogy to fit this bill, Mario would the Manuel Göttsching to Sonic's Petrucci. There is infinite depth in the simplest of systems, which is why E2-E4 has the reputation it does despite being built on 2 fucking notes where as DT's stuff gets stomped on for limiting itself with such unnecessary cacophony. If music isn't your thing, imagine Mario is Ozu or Bergman and Sonic is Refn or Snyder and you will have film equivalent to that very same analogy.

In short, the simplest of systems will be the one who provides both the player and the creator with the most amount of freedom. Complexity most certainly does not equate with depth. They aren't mutually exclusive, either, but more often than the former will actively impede the latter, not the other way around.

This is actually quite a silly thing to state as fact. To take your music example quickly. That would be like arguing that a 2 note piano has more scope for depth than one with 88 keys. The example you give is only able to stand out as a form of expression because the composer is given to option to work with the subset of a more complex arrangement by choice. Whilst he would be able to create the same piece on a keyboard containing only those two notes, it would then prevent the vast majority of other works existing, instead forcing nearly everyone else to compose in a more similar manner... i.e. a lack of depth. Rise of the Robots isn't a deeper game than Virtua Fighter 5 thanks to a lack of attack options. Chess isn't lacking in depth to Connect 4. This entire premise is nonsense.

This actually does manifest itself in earlier Mario titles as well, where if I for example go look up a world record run, in most cases the choices made by the player mirror those I made at the age of 10, only executed more efficiently... whereas a Sonic speedrun will contain all sorts of time-saving quirks that I never knew about (also executed with an effieciency beyond what I could).

Hell, to illustrate how the additional mechanical give the player abilities to approach situations from more angles than the default intention, I went to find a youtube video of the common Chemical Plant Act 2 shortcut that we all know and love for avoiding the rising water section of doom. The first link I clicked expecting to be the shortcut I expected, was actually a completely different approach I'd never done before. These are possible because there's more to controlling the character beyond the rigid limits imposed that leave very little flexibility for doing any either different of much better. In Mario if the player jumps a max height of 10 and a platform is at 15, that's basically that... either they've given you something specific to reach it, or you can't, period. In Sonic there are often numerous approaches a player can take to make the seemingly impossible attainable by mastering the game's momentum and physics system.

There was a great post by Krejlooc a while back that popped up in a discussion of whether or not Sonic could have been done on the SNES, which does a good job of describing how the game's mechanics facilitate depth in the games, and how that is then linked to many areas of the games design.

That is precisely what is happening. If you frequent discussions about Sonic level design when I'm posting, you may notice me talking up Sonic CD quite a bit, frequently mentioning that "it plays best if you master the physics." This is what I'm referring to - the level design in Sonic games is highly dynamic in the way it moves Sonic. I love Sonic CD because, more than any other Sonic game, it's level design is conscious of the math under it all and is built to be exploited. Which is to say, if you understand how Sonic moves and what the underlaying math is, you have more control over him than in any other game. People call the level design in that game schitzophrenic, but it's not - the pieces all interact with Sonic to control his velocity and angle and depending on how you hit every curve or dip you will fly in different directions. It's built specifically for people who are mindful of the trig involved.

So let's look at a very specific example of where the underlaying math comes into play:

This is Green Hill Zone act 3, right before the boss. The final palm tree just before the bridge contains a muteki box that makes the boss a snap. It's exceptionally well hidden because Sonic's normal jumping height will not reach it, nor will his jumping height when running. if you stand under the box and jump, you will not bump the box.

The way you reach that box is with the small, almost indiscernable dip in the ground that I have marked in pink. What we see in Sonic is not what we are interacting with, each solid tile actually corresponds to a solidity chart that is loaded along with the level. Conceptually, it looks like this:

This is a mapper that maps solidity and angle mappings to every piece of ground in the game. The bottom left of the screen is a piece of grass (barely visible) being mapped with white (FF) points to note solidity. In that specific piece, the ground is completely flat. This is what Sonic uses to determine the angle he runs at, and the angle he runs at determines his velocity along with his current speed, and his velocity affects his jump height.

That spot in pink has a very tiny, very slight upward tilt. When you race along towards it, if you jump at the apex, Sonic's velocity will be so great that he'll jump higher than normal and reach the box. Here's me demonstrating this in motion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foqZn6rG61Q

Skip to 3:53

Sonic, the entire series, is built off of this concept. This isn't accidental design, it's very methodically designed to be abused. Higher routes let you go way faster than lower routes, but to get to these higher routes, you have to know how to play with the angle and velocity and watch the ground like a hawk. The level design is tied very much to the flexibility of the physics system.

Go with rigid pre-calculated physics, and all this vanishes. This close link between physics and level design is what makes Sonic great. It's what stuff like Sonic Advance 2 is missing. It's what Sonic Generation's 2D stages got right - even if the physics weren't exactly 1:1 with the originals, the levels were still designed explicitly with the way the new physics worked in the same fashion that the Genesis games were designed with.

The physics are precisely why Sonic is such a terrific game. You ditch the physics, you ditch what makes Sonic, Sonic.

Earlier Mario games have none of this. Klonoa games have none of this. Megaman games have none of this. Whilst some of those games can be very "difficult" due to level design challenges, they are very, very shallow comparatively in mechanical depth. An argument should be made for Super Mertroid, long, long before any of those titles (and Shinobi too).

I would very much appreciate if you could substantiated your claims of mechanical depth, and how it would apply to the games you mention (especially Megaman), as it really does feel like you're misusing the term entirely to simply describe stuff you like,

That's an interesting comparison, considering Sonic 3 was released almost six years after Super Mario Bros. 3.

I don't really see how its interesting, when you consider that pretty much anyone that lists either does so, because they view them as better than pretty much everything released since then. Including their sequels.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Only Bonk's Revenge is good-ish. The Sonic quadrilogy is generally brilliant, save the odd level or two in each game. So...

 

[Kageshinzo]

I can maybe understand if people in a widely-acknowledged "hardcore" gaming forum like NeoGAF don't know who, say, Zool is, but Bonk or Master Higgins? I remember Bonk, in particular, always being shown headbutting the TurboGrafx-16 logo in the system's magazine and comic book ads.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I can maybe understand if people in a widely-acknowledged "hardcore" gaming forum like NeoGAF don't know who, say, Zool is, but Bonk or Master Higgins? I remember Bonk, in particular, always being shown headbutting the TurboGrafx-16 logo in the system's magazine and comic book ads.

we have a lot of teenagers (or even adults, I guess) on here via Reddit and Youtube and so on that were born after Bonk stopped being even remotely relevant

like, the real question here is Sonic or Crash

 

[Triggerhappytel]

So, Bonk is an in-joke which most of the forum is in on, right?!

we have a lot of teenagers (or even adults, I guess) on here via Reddit and Youtube and so on that were born after Bonk stopped being even remotely relevant

like, the real question here is Sonic or Crash

I mean, I'm 34 years old, I've been gaming since I was probably about 8, and I've never heard of Bonk. I've been regular on forums for probably the last 13 years and I don't recall all ever seeing it even get mentioned.

 

[Bucket-o-roadkill]

Second fiddle to Mario? Back in the trilogy days the plumber played second fiddle to Sonic

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Mario doesn't even deserve to be Sonic's second fiddle. It should be Sonic and Crash. Mario can suck a warp pipe.

 

[Synth]

I can maybe understand if people in a widely-acknowledged "hardcore" gaming forum like NeoGAF don't know who, say, Zool is, but Bonk or Master Higgins? I remember Bonk, in particular, always being shown headbutting the TurboGrafx-16 logo in the system's magazine and comic book ads.

Zool is another character along with Jazz Jackrabbit, that I'd be more confident on a GAFer being able to name over Bonk in order to save my life.

Mario doesn't even deserve to be Sonic's second fiddle. It should be Sonic and Crash. Mario can suck a warp pipe.

Let's not get crazy now. We're a long way from where Crash starts to get a look in.

 

[Celine]

we have a lot of teenagers (or even adults, I guess) on here via Reddit and Youtube and so on that were born after Bonk stopped being even remotely relevant

like, the real question here is Sonic or Crash

Crash is another character that stopped being relevant for the younger generations.
The last time a new Crash game was popular was on PS2.
People clamoring for it played the series on PS1/PS2 at least a decade ago.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Crash is another character that stopped being relevant for the younger generations.
The last time a new Crash game was popular was on PS2.
People clamoring for it played the series on PS1/PS2 at least a decade ago.

Yeah, but it stayed relevant for years after just due to the enormous prevalence of PS1s in the wild, and also by being pretty fucking good. Same reason Sonic's in this conversation. (Sonic Adventure certainly doesn't contribute much.)

 

[Kageshinzo]

Zool is another character along with Jazz Jackrabbit, that I'd be more confident on a GAFer being able to name over Bonk in order to save my life.

I think this is a case of people not knowing the name Bonk, but recognizing the character. Like, for example, Master Higgins. If people see him, they wouldn't know his name is Master Higgins but they'll go, "Oh, the Adventure Island guy!"

 

[gelf]

I can maybe understand if people in a widely-acknowledged "hardcore" gaming forum like NeoGAF don't know who, say, Zool is, but Bonk or Master Higgins? I remember Bonk, in particular, always being shown headbutting the TurboGrafx-16 logo in the system's magazine and comic book ads.

I'm unfortunately not aware of the content of the system as a whole. I'm in my mid 30s and yet it just wasn't a system I saw any coverage of at the time. Maybe being from the UK makes a difference I don't know. I could name a bunch of 16bit era mascots like Zool, it was on the Amiga and that system was big here. I never really encountered Bonk. He looks vaguely like I've seen him in another thread here before but that's it.

I bet you have blind spots of your own. You can't be exposed to everything.

 

[BGBW]

Some gaffers didn't began playing until after the early '90s (or even much much latter like with Xbox 360, PS3 and Wii).

I'd like to think if someone is into a hobby they'd look at little into the history. Never played a Bonk game or any TurboGrafx 16 game for that matter, but from basic knowledge osmosis I learnt of Bonk's existence (like the Wii's VC release schedule). It's not like we're talking about something obscure like Llamatron.

 

[Celine]

Yeah, but it stayed relevant for years after just due to the enormous prevalence of PS1s in the wild, and also by being pretty fucking good. Same reason Sonic's in this conversation. (Sonic Adventure certainly doesn't contribute much.)

I'm saying that younger generations have little interest for Crash because just like Bonk (but in a much bigger scale of course) it didn't release relevant product past a certain point in time (we are talking 10-15 years which is a big timespan).
Sonic, while the quality wasn't always good and he definitely lost the central role he had in the '90s, still released products that could sell 2 million units or above (well at least until the current generation ah ah).

 

[MoogleWizard]

Bonk is so well known that when you search for it on Google you have to scroll to the bottom of the page to even see a mention of the video game. LOL

 

[Synth]

I think this is a case of people not knowing the name Bonk, but recognizing the character. Like, for example, Master Higgins. If people see him, they wouldn't know his name is Master Higgins but they'll go, "Oh, the Adventure Island guy!"

I think the character not being very distinct also doesn't help. I'm not exactly sure of when I became aware of Bonk as a character (I'd assume it was probably via GAF though), but I do recall thinking that he looks like some random Krillin X Son of Chuck Rock hybrid.

I'd like to think if someone is into a hobby they'd look at little into the history. Never played a Bonk game or any TurboGrafx 16 game for that matter, but from basic knowledge osmosis I learnt of Bonk's existence (like the Wii's VC release schedule). It's not like we're talking about something obscure like Llamatron.

Is the Wii VC actually how you learned of the character btw? If so, wouldn't it be easy for you to still be unaware of the character simply because you don't pay much attention to the Wii VC, all else being equal?

As I said, I'm not sure exactly when I learned of the character... but I don't feel I'm any more qualified to be referred to as videogame fan than I was prior to that moment.

 

[Kageshinzo]

I'm unfortunately not aware of the content of the system as a whole. I'm in my mid 30s and yet it just wasn't a system I saw any coverage of at the time. Maybe being from the UK makes a difference I don't know. I could name a bunch of 16bit era mascots like Zool, it was on the Amiga and that system was big here. I never really encountered Bonk. He looks vaguely like I've seen him in another thread here before but that's it.

I bet you have blind spots of your own. You can't be exposed to everything.

Honestly, I've never seen a TG-16 in the wild, nor played Bonk. But I have seen his games' ads in magazines and, as mentioned, I've seen him in TG-16 ads where he's headbutting the logo.

I mean, yeah, I'm pretty sure there will be games/mascots/characters that I won't recognize but I would think it'd be because they're not well-known. Bonk's the face of a system that was released (albeit a bit niche) when video games surged back. I would think that would at least give him some visual recognition, at least. If the system didn't release in the region, or didn't get much exposure via media and print ads, though, that's understandable. Although I do remember seeing him in ads in Archie digests.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I'm saying that younger generations have little interest for Crash because just like Bonk (but in a much bigger scale of course) it didn't release relevant product past a certain point in time (we are talking 10-15 years which is a big timespan).
Sonic, while the quality wasn't always good and he definitely lost the central role he had in the '90s, still released products that could sell 2 million units or above (well at least until the current generation ah ah).

Fair. All the same, I think the Bonk inclusion is fairly silly, as I'm sure the thread has long since agreed upon by now.

 

[Firemind]

Castlevania

RIP

 

[ScientificPizza]

It's Sonic

Bonk is fine, but it's not as good as Sonic's peak

Also god damn I hate the look of Bonk so much

 

[redcrayon]

Maybe it's just being a UK gaffer, but Ive been playing games since the mid 80s and definitely remember Zool because of the Amiga, but not Bonk until someone posted a screenshot. I don't think anyone I knew had a Turbografx.

Perhaps it's because all the caveman characters get mixed up in my head? There was Joe and Mac, Chuck Rock and several more. Funny how prevalent the word 'ninja' was, Zool was a ninja ant, Joe and Mac were caveman ninja, Ninja turtles, Shinobi, Ninja Gaiden. Everything was ninja

Same goes for the edgy, cutesy mascots. I can remember Sonic, Zool, Bubsy, Aero, Starfy, Cool Spot, after that it gets kinda hazy. I guess Crash and Spyro are sort of the descendants of that line.

 

[StayDead]

Some gaffers didn't began playing until after the early '90s (or even much much latter like with Xbox 360, PS3 and Wii).

I was born in 1990 and I know who Bonk is. He's a gaming icon!

 

[Kneefoil]

TG-16 Bonks are all decent, but they don't touch Sonic. Even Sonic 1, which is easily the weakest of the Mega Drive main Sonic entries, is better than any of the games in the Bonk trilogy. I had frustrations with some of the level designs in all three of the TG-16 Bonks.

I knew I'd see some "who's Bonk?" in this thread, but I'm a bit surprised by how many messages like that there are here.

 

[MrBadger]

Obviously Sonic. But I used to really like Bonk's revenge

 

[Celine]

I was born in 1990 and I know who Bonk is. He's a gaming icon!

Good for you but I don't expect that everyone on GAF know who Bonk is or what a PC Engine is.
There are gaffers who never played a Super Mario Bros game so I'm perfectly aware that a relatively obscure character like Bonk won't be known by any gaffer and I'm saying it as a PC Engine Duo R owner.
Turbografx impact in the west (and I'm saying "west" to refer mainly to North America) was minimal 25 years ago while in Japan PC Engine was a moderately successful console (and the first CD enabled console with an userbase big enough to have had a sizeable CD game library).
I don't expect any gaffer to be well versed in videogame history or videogame sales just because the forum is relatively famous for such communities.

 

[magicalsoundshower]

I admit I really like Bonk as a character, but as a game, I only really like Bonk's Adventure, it offers just the right combination of straightforward and complex level design. Bonk's Revenge is a bit too mazey for my tastes and I straight up don't enjoy Bonk 3 at all.

The only other Bonk game I played was Super Bonk, which looks pretty but moves slow as molasses and also sports Bonk 3-esque level design. I was really disappointed by it.

 

[Shig]

I always admired the TG-16 from afar as a kid, and I remember lusting after Bonk from the screenshots in game mags at the time.

Jumped at the chance to finally play one when Bonk's Adventure hit the VC, and came away super underwhelmed. Never bothered with the other two, are they a big improvement?

Air Zonk was legit, however.

 

[Firebrand]

While I certainly know of Bonk, it's mainly from old English magazines like CVG as the consoles never came out over here in Sweden AFAIK.

 

[Poimandres]

Sooo putting aside the topic in question, what are some good underrated platformers?

 

[Impotaku]

Personally i'll take pc genjin over sonic anyday, all of them are solid platform games. Not something you can say about sonic where the shit to good ratio is far too high.

Considering they are 8 bit games they look & play amazingly good, always loved the artstyle of the Japanese pc genjin games. Fuck knows why they messed with the box art for the states.

 

[chrislowe]

Wonderboy.

Then Bonk after Wonderboy.

 

[2+2=5]

I have never liked sonic and i have never tried bonk(or i tried it and i didn't like it lol) but since people is naming other platformers i say superfrog(the amiga one, not the aberration on vita and ps3) and fire & ice XD

 

[show me your skeleton]

what the bonk?!

 

[MrBadger]

It's more about devaluing classic Sonic tbh.

Doubly so. this "second fiddle" talk is really underplaying just how popular Sonic was in his heyday compared to Mario.

 

[Nocturnowl]

So if I ever Bonk, I gotta Bonk with Revenge at least? that's my main takeaway from this thread.

 

[AGoodODST]

Sooo putting aside the topic in question, what are some good underrated platformers?

Sonic 8-Bit. Million times better than the mediocre MD/Genesis game.

 

[Auto-Reply]

Maybe it's just being a UK gaffer, but Ive been playing games since the mid 80s and definitely remember Zool because of the Amiga, but not Bonk until someone posted a screenshot. I don't think anyone I knew had a Turbografx.

Perhaps it's because all the caveman characters get mixed up in my head? There was Joe and Mac, Chuck Rock and several more. Funny how prevalent the word 'ninja' was, Zool was a ninja ant, Joe and Mac were caveman ninja, Ninja turtles, Shinobi, Ninja Gaiden. Everything was ninja

Same goes for the edgy, cutesy mascots. I can remember Sonic, Zool, Bubsy, Aero, Starfy, Cool Spot, after that it gets kinda hazy. I guess Crash and Spyro are sort of the descendants of that line.

Bonk was on Amiga too, renamed as B.C.Kid. (I also think ZOOL is more memorable for some reason lol)

 

[Nocturnowl]

Sonic 8-Bit. Million times better than the mediocre MD/Genesis game.

Assuming we're just talking Sonic 1 MD I agree.

 

[redcrayon]

Bonk was on Amiga too, renamed as B.C.Kid. (I also think ZOOL is more memorable for some reason lol)

Ah, fair enough, thanks! That might be because of a bigger ad campaign around Zool at the time, I dimly remember it being pitched as the Amiga's Mario/sonic at the time.

Just to clear up the Bonk/PC kid/BC kid thing, wikipedia says:

Bonk is a video game character from NEC's TurboGrafx-16 console. Known in Japan as "PC-Genjin" and as "BC Kid" in PAL territories, Bonk was a mascot for NEC's console.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

Of course it's Kirby.

It's really strange how few huge JnR properties survived though. Absolutely mostly Nintendo holding up that flag.

 

[casiopao]

I liked Bonk in the past but i would say Sonic in Genesis era is the TiTS lol. The current Sonic can burn in hell though.T_T

 

[mark-san]

Chuck Rock and Adventure Island are better plataformers than Bonk.

 

[Sexually Aggressive Uncle]

Jesus Christ. Both series are shit-tier. Sonic was never very good and all the Bonk games I played were hot garbage. A real Sophie's Choice of who the fuck cares.

 

[jackissocool]

I can't decide if this is a real game or an elaborate prank and I don't want to look it up to find out.

 

[Celine]

Chuck Rock and Adventure Island are better plataformers than Bonk.

New Adventure Island is my favorite PC Engine platform game.

 

[UpUpDownDown]

Bonk two was really the only good Bonk game.

All Sonic games are basically shit.