Support NeoGAF

[uncelestial]

Oh boy.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2017/07/02/defense-white-male/Me9UoUrcPbcljxRkPFlXAP/story.html

EVERYWHERE I TURN these days I encounter the term ”white male," almost always used in a pejorative way. I understand the reasons for this. There are abundant examples — both in history and current events — of boorish and evil white men. Hitler comes to mind. Stalin. Mussolini. On a much lesser scale, certain unmentionables in present-day D.C.

...
But these blanket condemnations are part of a very narrow and skewed reading of both history and current events. While it's certainly true that white men have started wars, participated in torture, and committed rape, they/we have not cornered the market on evil behavior. Idi Amin comes to mind. Pol Pot. Baby Doc Duvalier. Hirohito.

Not to mention certain notorious female camp guards and serial killers.

It's not hard to argue that white men have done more harm in history — from the keeping of slaves to the genocide of Native Americans, and a thousand other examples — than any other single group. But it can also be argued that they have done more good — in combatting evil regimes, in developing medicines, in inventing everything from the automobile to the cellphone to various methods of birth control. White men discovered penicillin, Novocain, the drug regimen used to treat people afflicted with AIDS. In many places the chances are good that if your home is on fire, it will be a white man who comes to put it out. And, if it were not for the millions of white men who gave their lives in World War II, we might all be starting the work day with the Nazi salute.

Associating us only with evil deeds, selfishness, and violence is as misguided as making general disparaging statements about any other group: women, blacks, Muslims, homosexuals. Yet, in certain circles, it has become acceptable — even laudable — to do just that.

Not long ago I had an exchange with a former student of mine — we were discussing women's rights and abusive men — and she told me I had no right to speak on the subject. ”We were made to be silent for millennia," she said, ”now it's your turn." That kind of revenge must be satisfying, and particularly soothing to those who've been hurt by men — no small number. Ultimately, though, understandable as it may be, the impulse toward revenge leads nowhere except to a seesaw of oppression and fury.

I thought of arguing with her that my right to speak on those issues derives from the fact that I have two daughters and have been married for 38 years to the same good woman. But those aren't the true reasons. The true reason is that I am a human being, and the welfare of all human beings concerns me.

...
From Jews to African-Americans to homosexuals to Irish, Italian, and now Middle Eastern immigrants, hatred began by tossing all of them into a group, and attributing to that group the most unattractive characteristics imaginable. What is being done to ”white males" now, it should go without saying, is not on a par with what was done to those people. But the instinct to label and blame is born of the same kind of group-think.

Invent novocain if old.

 

[Arc]

So many here we go gifs to choose from...

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

no link

 

[uncelestial]

no link

Added, sorry.

 

[Ithil]

"Hitler and Stalin" by the second sentence. Oh boy.

 

[Patryn]

Ugh. Mansplaining, the essay.

And I say that as a white male. We need to shut up and get out of the way. Our opinion is not needed.

 

[norm9]

Man, just give these fuckers a month already so they'll stop complaining.

 

[Gabriel_Logan]

Time to Hitler is bananas.

 

[WaffleTaco]

That is not what we are talking about at all when we complain about white males...like wtf is this suppose to be satire?

 

[Slayven]

And people say Boston is racist, take that Libtards

 

[BrutishMrFish]

I thought of arguing with her that my right to speak on those issues derives from the fact that I have two daughters and have been married for 38 years to the same good woman. But those aren’t the true reasons. The true reason is that I am a human being, and the welfare of all human beings concerns me.

1. Republicans use the "I have a wife and daughters" excuse whenever it's implied that they're doing women a disservice, so clearly that doesn't mean anything.

2. If someone is concerned with the welfare of all people, they shouldn't waste their time defending the defended.

 

[Ponn]

it should go without saying, is not on a par with what was done to those people

Hmm...what WAS done. As in past tense, because it certainly isn't happening today and having severe impact on people lives. No siree. But someone, somewhere said "white male" in a mean way and NOW we need to stand up to racism because thats going too far.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I mean

I understand the feeling behind it but this reads terribly

 

[Strike]

#notallwhitemales


It's time to stop talking and start listening.

 

[Conciliator]

this will be an interesting thread

 

[Linkura]

I thought this was going to be a Jacoby op-ed, though he is Jewish. He's pretty much the only conservative op-ed writer the Globe has, though he is pro-immigrant.

This shit belongs in the Herald.

 

[moomoo14]

That is not what we are talking about at all when we complain about white males...like wtf is this suppose to be satire?

"Not long ago I had an exchange with a former student of mine — we were discussing women’s rights and abusive men — and she told me I had no right to speak on the subject. “We were made to be silent for millennia,” she said, “now it’s your turn.”

I think this is supposed to be the thing the author is getting at. The idea that white males, although definitely the biggest benefactors of privilege, nonetheless should be a part of any discussion of merit. Because the exchange of ideas on any particular topic shouldn't be based on whether one is oppressed or not, but should instead be based on the merit of the ideas themselves. I think? Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[benicillin]

Roland Merullo (born September 19, 1953) is a Meninist American author

Well that's enough for me.

 

[TheCochese]

As a fellow white male, this/these writer(s) can get fucked.

 

[timshundo]

 

[Isotropy]

Awkwardly worded.

If I'm brutally honest, though, I increasingly feel myself just tuning right out the moment somebody says "but WHITE MAAALES!", and I say that as somebody who has been accused of being an extremist leftist more than once.

 

[Takyon]

At the basic level, he's right. I don't think this article is really necessary though.
White men def need to concede power and representation in societal hierarchies to both white women and men/women of different backgrounds/races.

 

[Servbot24]

Finally someone sticking up for the oppressors.

 

[luchadork]

author hits on a good point. in a lot of cases its less about equality and more about revenge of the nerds.

 

[tearsintherain]

People don't like to acknowledge it but human greatness is built on the suffering of many. The pyramids, western civilization, the Great Wall, the foundations of American capitalism, the rich European dynasties built on the gold of the Americas, the Papal wealth, the Indian Raj's and their wealth, the Mogul Empire, virtually every large city in the world, the Opium Wars -- history is an endless series of a small group of people taking merciless advantage of others.

Even today while people lambaste white males, rich people, the police, etc they are doing it on iPhones and computers built on the backs of prison and indentured labor conditions in China, created with conflict minerals mined by children in Africa. Sure, Apple and Foxconn and Intel and others are making some progress but I don't remember any movements to stop using iPhones and other chinese manufactured tech in the past decade. So if some suffering by people you can't see is ok to make your life better, how is that not a principle applicable to earlier generations?

 

[Slayven]

.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

People don't like to acknowledge it but human greatness is built on the suffering of many. The pyramids, western civilization, the Great Wall, the foundations of American capitalism, the rich European dynasties built on the gold of the Americas, the Papal wealth, the Indian Raj's and their wealth, the Mogul Empire, the Opium Wars -- history is an endless series of a small group of people taking merciless advantage of others.

Even today while people lambaste white males, rich people, the police, etc they are doing it on iPhones and computers built on the backs of prison and indentured labor conditions in China, created with conflict minerals mined by children in Africa. Sure, Apple and Foxconn and Intel and others are making some progress but I don't remember any movements to stop using iPhones and other chinese manufactured tech in the past decade. So if some suffering by people you can't see is ok to make your life better, how is that not a principle applicable to earlier generations?

what does this have to do with the op-ed

 

[Nepenthe]

I went into this with the best of intentions, expecting perhaps a more sympathetic or pragmatic story of what white maledom means in today's world versus what it meant before, or perhaps an essay on proper allyship from white males. You know, something I could really chew on and get invested in.

Instead I got the "Sure, we've done a lot of shit, but we've done some good things too!!!" without any real acknowledgement that perhaps a lot of the good shit is in part the result of structural inhibitors of other groups from contributing more equally to certain fields, or is just the necessity of cleaning up a mess that white men were responsible for in the first place.

Disappoint.

 

[Dyle]

He's not wrong that "White Male" shouldn't be used as a pejorative, but that's all he gets right. What people mean use the words "White Male", they're doing so to shame a person into recognizing how privileged they are and lead them to take action. This writer is just too stupid/self-absorbed to realize this, as evidenced by how he identifies as a "meninist"

Also, whataboutismstartedintheUSSR.jpeg

 

[CrunchyFrog]

I mean, I've definitely encountered people where my being a white hetero male has been pointed out in a pejorative sense or used to blanket discredit me and that's definitely not ok, but at the same time in no way would I equate that to the plight of far more oppressed minorities.

 

[Staccat0]

This dude wrote a whole Op Ed about this? This is seriously message board tier stuff.

 

[unpopularblargh]

what does this have to do with the op-ed

Whataboutism.

 

[The Kree]

"Not long ago I had an exchange with a former student of mine — we were discussing women’s rights and abusive men — and she told me I had no right to speak on the subject. “We were made to be silent for millennia,” she said, “now it’s your turn.”

I think this is supposed to be the thing the author is getting at. The idea that white males, although definitely the biggest benefactors of privilege, nonetheless should be a part of any discussion of merit. Because the exchange of ideas on any particular topic shouldn't be based on whether one is oppressed or not, but should instead be based on the merit of the ideas themselves. I think? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Suddenly it becomes about merit when white guys are the ones being told to shut up and sit down. Convenient. Can't help but see it as merely trying to preserve order though.

 

[The Living Tribunal]

 

[luchadork]

what does this have to do with the op-ed

well, one of the examples given was a liberal arts student at a university in one of the greatest countries of all time, living in the safest period in history, with the highest standard of living. who was complaining about being a victim. and needing to get revenge. without acknowledging that her own life was built on the back of past AND current exploitation.

 

[Nerokis]

Well that's enough for me.

That was added to his Wikipedia page today. I doubt it was done so sincerely.

 

[Blood Diamonds]

"We did a lot of bad shit, but we did a lot of good shit too! But...you know we did do some pretty fucked up shit not gonna lie...but still, history is repeating itself and white men are becoming oppressed! but like...not as much as other minorities though let me be clear on that I don't wanna sound like an asshole lmfao still tho we're being kind of oppressed I guess? Anyway"

 

[luchadork]

"We did a lot of bad shit, but we did a lot of good shit too! But...you know we did do some pretty fucked up shit not gonna lie...but still, history is repeating itself and white men are becoming oppressed! but like...not as much as other minorities though let me be clear on that I don't wanna sound like an asshole lmfao still tho we're being kind of oppressed I guess? Anyway"

i guess theres no irony typing 'i am more oppressed than you!' onto an iphone, /u/blood_diamonds?

 

[TheSpoiler]

well, one of the examples given was a liberal arts student at a university in one of the greatest countries of all time, living in the safest period in history, with the highest standard of living. who was complaining about being a victim. and needing to get revenge. without acknowledging that her own life was built on the back of past AND current exploitation.

So women should just shut the fuck up because they have iPhones?

 

[Agentnibs]

I see "white male" thrown around a lot, and I agree it's starting to feel more of a way to exclude people from having a say in a conversations. That is wrong and people shouldn't exclude a group of people for something they have no control over. So I feel like that argument has merit.

But to then start listing accomplishments as way to say "not all white people" comes off incredibly tone deaf.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

well, one of the examples given was a liberal arts student at a university in one of the greatest countries of all time, living in the safest period in history, with the highest standard of living. who was complaining about being a victim. and needing to get revenge. without acknowledging that her own life was built on the back of past AND current exploitation.

...ignoring the hyperbole for a moment

the author of the op-ed is framing the piece such that white men's accomplishments should be enough to shield them from criticism, especially since other races did bad things too.

the post I was responding to frames everyone as a hypocrite and tries to ignore racial imbalance all together, which even the op-ed author didn't do.

 

[luchadork]

So women should just shut the fuck up because they have iPhones?

strawman

 

[g11]

That is not what we are talking about at all when we complain about white males...like wtf is this suppose to be satire?

Find a more accurate term in that case.

 

[Servbot24]

strawman

I don't think you know what that is

 

[Common Knowledge]

There's a discussion to be had about what a white male's role is to be in a world that is actively fighting against the systemic oppression that a white male most benefits from, and I don't think the answer is for them to all shut up and not engage in it (on the contrary, the support of such people of high privilege is arguably needed in dismantling it), but nobody self-important enough to write articles like this seem to be able to get that sentiment across without coming off as a fucking tool and ultimately just engaging in a glorified exercise of whataboutism. And not actually showing any shred of giving a shit about the struggles of minorities, just wanting to rid themselves of any personal blame as if that's what's important.

 

[Slayven]

The only people excluding white males from the conversation is themselves. They are always welcome, but they don't get to dictate the conversation.

 

[Darryl M R]

I came in open-minded but there is almost zero depth in this piece.

The only people excluding white males from the conversation is themselves. They are always welcome, but they don't get to dictate the conversation.

Exactly this, when ever I hear or see online "you are a white male" it is a reminder to the person they are addressing that you do not get to lead this conversation or undervalue other's thoughts on a topic that you are not personally affected by day in and day out.

 

[Famassu]

"Not long ago I had an exchange with a former student of mine — we were discussing women’s rights and abusive men — and she told me I had no right to speak on the subject. “We were made to be silent for millennia,” she said, “now it’s your turn.”

I think this is supposed to be the thing the author is getting at. The idea that white males, although definitely the biggest benefactors of privilege, nonetheless should be a part of any discussion of merit. Because the exchange of ideas on any particular topic shouldn't be based on whether one is oppressed or not, but should instead be based on the merit of the ideas themselves. I think? Correct me if I'm wrong.

They can be a part of it, but when people who suffer from sexism, racism, homophobia and other kind of bigotry & disadvantages in real life talk, white men who usually do not confront any of it need to shut up and listen to the people who have gone through that shit for years or decades.

 

[benicillin]

That was added to his Wikipedia page today. I doubt it was done so sincerely.

Oh, fair point.

The Mary Sue has a fairly decent write-up that I feel sums up my response well.

https://www.themarysue.com/why-would-the-boston-globe-give-space-to-racist-sexist-hot-garbage/

 

[Wiped89]

Can't help but agree tbh. A very well reasoned argument using just the right dash of hyperbole to make you take notice.

All people should be treated and discussed equally. That's all he's saying. How could anyone disagree?