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Boston Globe publishes "In Defense of the White Male" Op-Ed
- Thread starter uncelestial
- Start date
By jove, I simply don't understand why those African Negroids choose to decorate themselves in such shabby, revealing, uncivilized garb. I shall think about this on the way to the witch burning.
/thread
I'm not looking for a reason to get offended. I've highlighting rhetoric and certain impressions that I get from it. White people who practice a level of mindfulness aren't going to illicit the same response. I am also not looking to have a conversation regarding either minor encounters with PoC that left a sour taste or situations where a person themselves elicited a certain response when they didn't come into a conversation prepared.
We might agree on certain topics, but when I see things like this:
I'm getting an impression. Why mention cooperation when minorities have been doing that? Why is mentioning shutting white men out of discussions when that's never happened on any wide scale level? If you brought up situations where that has happened to you that's one thing but what I quoted is an entirely different attitude and doesn't serve any purpose and comes off as reductive.
A thread like this can exist if only to point out the absurd nature of the author. And with that said, plenty of people, especially Black and other minorities in this thread have been more than patient in explaining certain intracommunal conversations that white people have no place in.
My dinner analogy is apt because I do have white family members, and while they love me immensely and have watched me deal with racial abuse from a 2nd hand perspective, it's not the same thing as living with it. While recounting my experiences with racism if they ever stopped me and said not all white people, I would disregard them. Within a certain context, they aren't being addressed. Thankfully I haven't had a lot of that though.
I'm sure a lot of people want to help and even are well meaning when they encroach on conversations that they shouldn't really have a part of but articles that get a certain level of attention aren't those that talk about how a certain tone with minorities gets a certain response. All sides aren't equal so myself asking (not talking about you here) certain white people to watch what they say doesn't carry the same weight as them telling me I need to be nicer or that my rights wouldn't be possible unless they helped. Or to demand education and then get mad when I say I don't want to educate them not reflecting on how my day has been or if I've been racially abused.
My point with my responses isn't to say "white people fall in line" but to highlight prevalent attitudes and shared experiences PoC deal with. And why articles like this could have been stopped if a white peer took someone aside. The author's one instance with a student that didn't want to deal with him made up a lot of his op-ed and I can see why he got a certain response.
I'm not offended. I'm usually sighing when I see certain opinions. My quoting you wasn't to call you out, and I suppose I should have made that clear when using you as an example. That someone who perhaps means well but their words take on a completely different tone.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/comm...e-elusive-american-dream-20170707-gx6kdt.html
real gdp is up
unemployment is down
disposable income is up
but earnings are stagnant
productivity output is up 80%
but wages are only up 7%
and nearly all of that wage growth is explained by women joining the workforce
for men their wages have actually shrunk since 1979
middle class quality of life is actually declining despite economic growth
economic mobility has declined
90% of people born in the 40s would be richer than their parents
in the 80s that number was 50%
and its trending down
midlife mortality among whites has worsened sharply compared to other groups
this is associated with the factors above and has resulted in increased rates of opiod/alcohol abuse and suicide
workforce participation has declined among prime aged men from 97% to 88%. a lot of men (of all races) have given up looking for work.
combined with all this are high rates of political alienation and government mistrust.
===============
these sorts of numbers are why we've witnessed the rise of populism the past few years. its more of an economic/class issue than 'they just like white supremacy'. these people are hurting and theyre just not gonna bother engaging with someone telling them they've got it better than anyone else when the numbers just dont stack up. if anything its pushing them away into more extreme positions. identity politics is counter intuitive for everyone.
we'd be better of unifying to dismantle the economic system and replacing it with something fairer to everyone.
real gdp is up
unemployment is down
disposable income is up
but earnings are stagnant
productivity output is up 80%
but wages are only up 7%
and nearly all of that wage growth is explained by women joining the workforce
for men their wages have actually shrunk since 1979
middle class quality of life is actually declining despite economic growth
economic mobility has declined
90% of people born in the 40s would be richer than their parents
in the 80s that number was 50%
and its trending down
midlife mortality among whites has worsened sharply compared to other groups
this is associated with the factors above and has resulted in increased rates of opiod/alcohol abuse and suicide
workforce participation has declined among prime aged men from 97% to 88%. a lot of men (of all races) have given up looking for work.
combined with all this are high rates of political alienation and government mistrust.
===============
these sorts of numbers are why we've witnessed the rise of populism the past few years. its more of an economic/class issue than 'they just like white supremacy'. these people are hurting and theyre just not gonna bother engaging with someone telling them they've got it better than anyone else when the numbers just dont stack up. if anything its pushing them away into more extreme positions. identity politics is counter intuitive for everyone.
we'd be better of unifying to dismantle the economic system and replacing it with something fairer to everyone.
excelsiorlef
Member
So they picked the racist guy who wants to take their health care
well, with economic conditions that give rise to populism, maybe the dems should have gone with a candidate who was anti-establishment and promised to change the economic system that was hurting so many people. was there anyone like that?
all i know is that the only other option besides trump was someone who was part of the political elite, promised more of the same, and had openly mocked half of america as being "deplorables.. racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, islamaphobic...".
Elegant Weapon
Member
Rather than take a hard look at the very real half of americans who are deplorable: racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, islamaphobic....
They voted for Trump the racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, islamaphobic candidate...
still wondering why they aren't as popular as when they could legally beat a non-white person to death for looking at them wrong
They voted for Trump the racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, islamaphobic candidate...
still wondering why they aren't as popular as when they could legally beat a non-white person to death for looking at them wrong
Psychoward
Banned
This is a whole lot of effort to wave away racism my dude
Do you understand that white privilege doesn't mean that every single white person has an amazing life yet
Do you understand that white privilege doesn't mean that every single white person has an amazing life yet
excelsiorlef
Member
Ahh yes always comes back to it's the Democrats fault.
Also she called half of Trump supporters deplorable which is only about 20% and she was being charitable with that number
QuantumZebra
Member
I don't think Mussolini is classifiable as a "White man" ... I mean I guess?
Either way this is a fucking mess.
As a white male, shut the fuck up already fellow white males, we've had the spotlight for way too fucking long.
Either way this is a fucking mess.
As a white male, shut the fuck up already fellow white males, we've had the spotlight for way too fucking long.
This is a very complex argument but I'm going to try to throw in my two cents from my unique perspective.
I am a white looking European and Native South American descent gay male. Was born in Argentina And Live in the us.
When I speak with some of my friends about this subject I've been pointed out that I, or anyone like me (i.e. "white male"), should take notice of how the color of my skin puts me in a privileged situation, and has furthered my possibilities, and that thus I can not possibly know or in any way inform a means to bring forth real change meanwhile benefiting from the status quo.
I understand that and, in some ways, even agree, to the extent that being white impedes me to know the full experience of what being a person of color entails.
In my case specifically though, the struggle with the notion that the color of my skin would require me to see things in this particular manner (and shut up) conflicts me and seems a bit reductionary because for a large portion of South America the oppressor is the US system whole.
Under this rhetoric it could be argued that all citizens of the US are on some level also privileged of the system the so called "white male" forged in their own benefit on the backs of others.
There are a lot of "white males" all over the world in this context that are, as oppressed, or even more oppressed by the system than any minority in this country. In this particular argument, race, or sexual preference, or gender even, are not the determining Factor for being oppressed.
This is why, here, this idea that those that implicitly have some benefit from this loopsided system have to refrain from commenting is dangerous because it has a myriad of implications to a lot of different groups of people, and on some level almost everyone should refrain from approaching the subject. Which is completely idiotic.
In short, I think the ussue should be framed as to which side of this argument are you in. We should all be a little more sympathetic and understand that whomever is seeking more equality needs to be able to partake in the conversation while making sure that, and I cannot stay this enough, they are able to listen to what the other is expressing.
Not regard the color of the skin or any other superficial attribute determine the validity of what is said, but rather allow the value of those ideas be the qualifying factor for engaging in conversation.
Some people may, in fact, not be allowed a seat at the table, but not primarily because of the color of their skin or anything else but what they actually bring to the table.
I would also like to add something else.i have been told as well when engaging about inequality, that being gay doesn't allow me to speak on the struggles of other minorities based on the fact that people cannot see my gayness at all times. I understand the idea behind it but I also think the logic is not completely sound in stating this.
Because in my experience the fact that people cannot see I'm gay at all times has made my journey into accepting my own self harder in that it made me feel isolated from the rest of the world. Society was in my case telling me to hide it and to keep it in some corner of myself with all the implications that brings with it. Growing up Society was telling me at all times that my being gay was a problem and a negative, and I had no one close to me- I thought- that was also dealing with this. Trust me dealing with that type of conflict about who you are is not fun, and certainly not preferable. Just different.
I'm using this specific example to show that any blanket statement about someone specific condition can be of a narrow View. My not showing my sexual preference at all times was preemptively stated as a grounds for rendering my opinion of lesser weight on the subject, where I found the actual experience of it absolutely dehumanizing on levels the other person didn't even conceive when suggesting the specifics of my belonging to a minority somehow "more privileged".
I want to be careful in stating that I am not trying to compare the grief that comes with my specific belonging to a certain minority with other experiences so many people all over the world have to endure. I'm just stating this to try and elicit the fact that I truly believe every voice that intends to be constructive to the cause should have a place in the table. If they lack the nuance of the actual experience of suffering any form of Oppression they should be enlightened as to what that means and how it could be made better, not brushed aside and dismissed. That's the only way I honestly see things improving.
I am a white looking European and Native South American descent gay male. Was born in Argentina And Live in the us.
When I speak with some of my friends about this subject I've been pointed out that I, or anyone like me (i.e. "white male"), should take notice of how the color of my skin puts me in a privileged situation, and has furthered my possibilities, and that thus I can not possibly know or in any way inform a means to bring forth real change meanwhile benefiting from the status quo.
I understand that and, in some ways, even agree, to the extent that being white impedes me to know the full experience of what being a person of color entails.
In my case specifically though, the struggle with the notion that the color of my skin would require me to see things in this particular manner (and shut up) conflicts me and seems a bit reductionary because for a large portion of South America the oppressor is the US system whole.
Under this rhetoric it could be argued that all citizens of the US are on some level also privileged of the system the so called "white male" forged in their own benefit on the backs of others.
There are a lot of "white males" all over the world in this context that are, as oppressed, or even more oppressed by the system than any minority in this country. In this particular argument, race, or sexual preference, or gender even, are not the determining Factor for being oppressed.
This is why, here, this idea that those that implicitly have some benefit from this loopsided system have to refrain from commenting is dangerous because it has a myriad of implications to a lot of different groups of people, and on some level almost everyone should refrain from approaching the subject. Which is completely idiotic.
In short, I think the ussue should be framed as to which side of this argument are you in. We should all be a little more sympathetic and understand that whomever is seeking more equality needs to be able to partake in the conversation while making sure that, and I cannot stay this enough, they are able to listen to what the other is expressing.
Not regard the color of the skin or any other superficial attribute determine the validity of what is said, but rather allow the value of those ideas be the qualifying factor for engaging in conversation.
Some people may, in fact, not be allowed a seat at the table, but not primarily because of the color of their skin or anything else but what they actually bring to the table.
I would also like to add something else.i have been told as well when engaging about inequality, that being gay doesn't allow me to speak on the struggles of other minorities based on the fact that people cannot see my gayness at all times. I understand the idea behind it but I also think the logic is not completely sound in stating this.
Because in my experience the fact that people cannot see I'm gay at all times has made my journey into accepting my own self harder in that it made me feel isolated from the rest of the world. Society was in my case telling me to hide it and to keep it in some corner of myself with all the implications that brings with it. Growing up Society was telling me at all times that my being gay was a problem and a negative, and I had no one close to me- I thought- that was also dealing with this. Trust me dealing with that type of conflict about who you are is not fun, and certainly not preferable. Just different.
I'm using this specific example to show that any blanket statement about someone specific condition can be of a narrow View. My not showing my sexual preference at all times was preemptively stated as a grounds for rendering my opinion of lesser weight on the subject, where I found the actual experience of it absolutely dehumanizing on levels the other person didn't even conceive when suggesting the specifics of my belonging to a minority somehow "more privileged".
I want to be careful in stating that I am not trying to compare the grief that comes with my specific belonging to a certain minority with other experiences so many people all over the world have to endure. I'm just stating this to try and elicit the fact that I truly believe every voice that intends to be constructive to the cause should have a place in the table. If they lack the nuance of the actual experience of suffering any form of Oppression they should be enlightened as to what that means and how it could be made better, not brushed aside and dismissed. That's the only way I honestly see things improving.
Angelus Errare
Banned
I've actually seen people argue that from the 60s to current, it's really democrats fault for abandoning white voters (despite the fact white voters left DNC...) to chase PoC, and that American politics and climate would be better for everyone (PoC included) if both parties catered and centered their politics on white people (men in particular).
Pretty much at this point most arguments are nothing more than variations of the aforementioned really.
Though I like how this all ignore the elephant in the room that unarguably it's conservative white voting patterns that have us in this current mess, but hey, cater to them cause they feel neglected or something. Because apparently it's way worse to point out the fact that decades upon decades upon decades of voting against their best interest because of racism is why we're in this mess than the racism/dog whistles that is central pillar of American conservative politics.
Me personally? I think saving these folks is pointless without them going through some major introspection and realizing how America got to this point, otherwise we're basically going to keep getting whitelash until the fall of the country. What's the point of saving a large group of people who will still be convinced that PoC are the reason the country is going down the shitter and thus vote against their best interest next election?
excelsiorlef
Member
It's why I always skeptical that a Left wing populist would have definitely had better success against Trump
Because in the end when given two options of people to blame: rich people which white folk can become or minorities... well I wouldn't put any money down that folks would blame rich people.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
The thing with LGBTQ+ issues, is that it's at least possible to get people who disagree with your arguments to at the very least understand that there s an issue to disagree about, while at the same time making it possible for issue to be easily agreed about.
A specific argument for a change that is needed can be made and people can then debate it.
When it comes to racial issues the biggest issue is getting people to accept that there is any issue to debate in the first place.
To repeat my analogy.
Racial issues in (in America specifically) essentially amount to the equivalent of a disabled person wanting to talk about how we can change things to be more inclusive for disabled people.
But the argument just gets bogged down from the start in backlash from able bodied people being upset that the disabled person even dared insinuate that able bodied people don't have to suffer the disadvantages that disabled bodied people do.
Instead you'll have someone like the poster above us come in and quote jobs numbers, suicide rates, the growing poverty gap etc in what is in reality a very simple way of saying "your particular struggle is irrelevant because look at how able bodied people suffer too. Fix that instead cause able bodied people will never agree that having a fully functioning body is an advantage over being disabled unless their economic status improves"
Imagine you were trying to explain to someone your case for wanting to have equal treatment in society, only to be replied to with "but look at these unemployment numbers. You're better off talking about the economy because straight people arent going to accept LGBTQ+ rights if theyre poor."
Thats pretty much the problem with race discussion at the moment.
I also think that excluding people from discussion simply on the basis of their background is silly, but also a bit of a mooted argument since it isn't really a thing. It definitely happens. People from any side of any spectrum can be ignorant. But it isn't a thing.
I think both racial and gender minority groups would cry tears of joy if there was some kind of mass influx of understanding and compassionate discourse by those on the other sides of the table fighting us to get their voices heard, but there isn't particularly, is there?
find me one post where i come even close to saying i personally dont believe white privilege or racism exists or isnt a problem.
you guys trip over yourselves to discredit someone you disagree with as racist. its crazy. i disagree on your solution. not that theres not an issue.
and just FYI those "very simple numbers" i quoted were from a speech ben bernake gave to the european central bank during a talk on the rise of populism and the failure of economic policy to address inequality. you can call it simple but i bet you didnt even read the link as it doesnt fit into your narrative that anyone that disagrees with you is automatically a racist.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
I described the struggles of racial issues and dealing with them being difficult because people either won't accept the existence of racial advantage/disadvantage or don't care about it, using your own post as proof.
The conclusion of links to racism based on my analysis was made by you, in post no.868.
Don't blame me for your own conclusions.
The conclusion of links to racism based on my analysis was made by you, in post no.868.
Don't blame me for your own conclusions.
I can agree 100% with this. In know very well that for the "white male" people of color are in poverty due to not being willing to educate themselves/work, and they state there is no inherent advantage to their "whiteness" for example.
My exposition was more directed to those that say anyone that not by their own design or desire derive some sort of privilege in this system should refrain from joining the conversation. I disagree wholeheartedly with that as a white Hispanic that is aware of the issue, strives to understand it, and wants to elicit change.