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Boston Globe publishes "In Defense of the White Male" Op-Ed

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
I'm considered white by pretty much everyone until they see how my first name is written.
So I'm automatically priviliged and need to shut up when minorities are talking about their issues and don't do enough for minorities having the chance to live equally. (fucking lol, i had to listen to that crap multiple times and i don't even bother to tell them that I'm probably doing more than them.)

And when I would like to assure people I'm on "their" side I have to write out my name or just show them my passport so i don't get beaten up on the street at night lmao.

Except I would love to avoid that on my applications because my chances sink as soon as they read my name.

Everytime i read "white people" here (which happens more and more often) I know if that person would see me in real life he would consider me one of "them" and automatically assume things like me being priviliged and shit, and it pisses me off.

Stop judging people by skin color. Yes, even if they are white. You're no better than people assuming some black dude is more likely a criminal because he's black.

People aren't judging the skin color. They're saying that white people, due to the fact that they universally benefit from white privilege (at least here in the U.S.), don't have the knowledge that people suffering from not having that privilege have. They can't dictate the conversation, because the only viewpoint they can legitimately speak from is as a recipient of that privilege. The beneficiary of a rigged system has no right to steer the discussion about the very system that demands their voices be heard above all others.
 
They also don't need to get lumped together with actual racists and mysoginists and need dumb quips like yours when they show up.[/QUOTE
Yeah, I don't see how there's any defending those posts.

They were the kind of thing we'd be shitting bricks about for 100 pages if it was the other way around.
 

Cyframe

Member
I think this is apart of it. The common sentiment is that white people don't like categorization of people based upon their immutable demographics- especially if that categorization is being done to point out a cultural more- without simultaneously understanding that we live in a world of express categorization based upon immutable characteristics of minorities, while white people have the freedom of presumed individuality. To then call a white man a "white man" puts them on an even playing field with everyone else regardless of context and is subsequently inconceivable.

Pretty much. Remember Bo Bice crying at KFC because the employee flagged him down for his order with "that white boy over there". He cried and whined on a news channel about that. As a Black person being identified as Black is par for the course. I think white people's sensitivity to being called white stems from the privilege of normalcy and being catered to as a default.

There's also a sense of egotism and lack of perspective taking with some individuals. They believe that their words have merits but dismiss Black people casually in this topic who have over two decades of first-hand experience with anti-blackness at least. That's not something that can be learned with a Mafia III playthrough. And if a person is making video game analogies they aren't fit for intraracial conversations involving things like the n-word.

The hubris of barging into a topic and demanding attention and if you dissent to that, you're creating division and making it harder to bridge the gap to equality is gaslighting. That type of ego isn't conducive for discussion and if white people walked into that type of conversation with an attitude like that, that's why they get "you're white, you don't know what you're talking about".
 

platocplx

Member
They also don't need to get lumped together with actual racists and mysoginists and need dumb quips like yours when they show up.

People who are true allies never feel the need to defend the ones who are racists. Or go all "not all men" "not all white people" etc. because they acknowledge there is a large swath of people who are either racist, bigots, sexist etc.

Most people do fall into those categories. People who aren't that are a minority. if a majority of people didn't fall into those categories we wouldnt even have these discussions.
 

Nepenthe

Member
Do people feel particularly threatened when someone says "America is dumb for electing Donald Trump" when not everyone voted for him, or is it understood that America in this context is a metonymy for the Republican voting base and political institutions that put him into office?

Pretty much. Remember Bo Bice crying at KFC because the employee flagged him down for his order with "that white boy over there". He cried and whined on a news channel about that. As a Black person being identified as Black is par for the course. I think white people's sensitivity to being called white stems from the privilege of normalcy and being catered to as a default.

There's also a sense of egotism and lack of perspective taking with some individuals. They believe that their words have merits but dismiss Black people casually in this topic who have over two decades of first-hand experience with anti-blackness at least. That's not something that can be learned with a Mafia III playthrough. And if a person is making video game analogies they aren't fit for intraracial conversations involving things like the n-word.

The hubris of barging into a topic and demanding attention and if you dissent to that, you're creating division and making it harder to bridge the gap to equality is gaslighting. That type of ego isn't conducive for discussion and if white people walked into that type of conversation with an attitude like that, that's why they get "you're white, you don't know what you're talking about".

Preach.
 

Skilletor

Member
And any white people that actually give a shit about the conversation and trying to change things realize they're not part of that group.

Just like I, as a male, realize I am not part of the group of men feminists might talk about when they speak on issues. I'm an ally and I'm not going to get flustered when I'm grouped in with other men because I actually care about improving things.

They also don't need to get lumped together with actual racists and mysoginists and need dumb quips like yours when they show up.

How I feel.

If people were really allies:

1. They would realize they weren't the ones being addressed.
2. Hurt feelings wouldn't stop them from helping the cause.

Fairweather friends can kick rocks as far as I'm concerned. I don't have time to add caveats when I speak. I got real issues to address and i don't have time to coddle people.
 

Poppy

Member
Do people feel particularly threatened when someone says "America is dumb for electing Donald Trump" when not everyone voted for him, or is it understood that America in this context is a metonymy for the Republican voting base and political institutions that put him into office?

im pretty sure whats why every thread is full of "but hillarys campaign terrible she bad too though trump fair and square DEMOCRACY", yes
 
How I feel.

If people were really allies:

1. They would realize they weren't the ones being addressed.
2. Hurt feelings wouldn't stop them from helping the cause.

Fairweather friends can kick rocks as far as I'm concerned. I don't have time to add caveats when I speak. I got real issues to address and i don't have time to coddle people.

IMHO, not caring about how other people will receive your actions is not the right way to go about things. Especially if you're calling someone an ally. Especially if their loyalty would be questioned heavily if they made remarks in a similar manner to those being discussed here.

I do think that when things get heated, people do forget to put the brakes on sometimes and go a bit too far.

I guess me talking out of a place where the racism isn't even half of what exists in America makes it easier for me to knock someone who deals with harsh racism daily using phrases like "why do white people XYZ", but that language isn't really helpful for anybody.

Most of the time it will just give that person chomping at the bit and holding their tongue during all the civil discourse a reason to start a victimisation/"see, YOU GUYS are the racists" routine that just derails the thread and we end up talking about bullshit and having to defend our original points while the original aggressive drive by posters are nowhere to be seen.
 
White people get very upset when they are treated the same way that non-white people are treated.

I know that as a white man, it really hurts when somebody mischaracterizes me as racist because of my race/gender combo. Really ruins my day as I go on not being shot by the cops for existing, having a general trust in the judicial system, and enjoying my paid for college degree. Just really fucks me up as I'm sitting in my nice apartment in a quiet, homogeneous, middle-class suburb.
 

StormKing

Member
I know that as a white man, it really hurts when somebody mischaracterizes me as racist because of my race/gender combo. Really ruins my day as I go on not being shot by the cops for existing, having a general trust in the judicial system, and enjoying my paid for college degree. Just really fucks me up as I'm sitting in my nice apartment in a quiet, homogeneous, middle-class suburb.

Yeah it must be really hurtful for you. Perhaps one day you'll write an article defending white men from all the mean pocs on the internet.
 

Rupetta

Member
Talking about white privilege isn't meant to discredit hardships that Caucasian people suffer. That is quite literally absolutely nothing to do with it.

Again I don' know if you realise, but simply equating the effects of white privilege to things that happen to both Caucasian and non Caucasian people literally only shows that you either don't know or don't appreciate what it is.

...
The problem is that people want to "counter" the idea that their race allows them a different life and thousands of little things they've never even had to consider as part of their lives that minorities live through on a daily basis, with universally existing problems the fact that they're poor, or cant find a job.
..
Nobody is trying to say that Caucasians can't suffer because of white privilege, its just to say that things are not equal. That's all it means.

Excellent post. A couple of things, I think the problem, however, with the word combo of "white male privilege" - or even just the less complex "white privilege", is evident in this thread, you have a lot of clearly well-educated liberals - who fail to grasp the above - even when its spelled out. For you "privilege" gets its meaning from its relation whiteness and race, for others I think privilege acquires meaning through class even when clearly being inserted in relation to race. It easily becomes (mis)understood a story about absolute social status - instead of relative. But lets assume you can establish a dominant meaning to "white male privilege" through interactions with disenfranchised unemployed Caucasian males, and navigate away from the "let us compare sufferings" narrative, you make them realize that their Caucasian male suffering is in fact "universal". What then? They are failures in every sense of the word, despite race and gender privilege, despite the system rigged in their favor, they are poor and unemployed, they are not in control of their life. They cannot imagine another future through the vocabularies we provide them with (I say "we" because I work in education), problem of alternatives heightened in a two-party system, in an economic system that is driven by accumulation by dispossession. Certainly vocabularies such as "white male privilege" will not spur dreams of alternative futures. There is no common denominator which around all those who are disenfranchised could rally, class is subjugated under gender and race or made irrelevant. My point is that you are unlikely to form solidarity through a white male privilege discourse, and even if you would do not offer any alternative discourses of moral imagination to the "universal conditions" of poverty and unemployment. I think very few people are willing to take the conversation there as it probably leads to a necessity to question certain truths even more sedimented than racial inequality.
 

Hero

Member
As someone that is half-white (of which I was second generation), I happened to have the "you're a white male" card played on me once. It was....interesting, to say the least.
 
As someone that is half-white (of which I was second generation), I happened to have the "you're a white male" card played on me once. It was....interesting, to say the least.

What was the subtext? "Shut up," or "listen," or "you are inherently bad" or what?

Pretty much. Remember Bo Bice crying at KFC because the employee flagged him down for his order with "that white boy over there". He cried and whined on a news channel about that.

That fucking guy couldn't handle being black for 2.4 seconds.
 

Nepenthe

Member
We can't form solidarity on economics issues because for centuries, poor and middle-class white people in this country overwhelmingly favor class warfare on the poor because they presume it'll stop lazy minorities from stealing money. The very thing most of the population has in common with one another is off the table because of racism, and that racism by and large isn't coming from inner city black folk; it's coming from suburban and rural whites who think they have more in common with Trump than they do their black neighbors a block away.
 

FyreWulff

Member
"we want to be allies but fuck you if you even slightly hurt our fee fees because then we'll withdraw and punish because you must coddle us even though we persist the problem"

especially this excrement

dumbass article said:
And, if it were not for the millions of white men who gave their lives in World War II, we might all be starting the work day with the Nazi salute."

BLACK. MEN. WERE. LITERALLY. BANNED. FROM. SERVING. YOU. IGNORANT. WHITE. SUPREMACIST. PIECE. OF. SHIT.

And the group that WAS was given wood replicas instead of real guns


because white people were (and are still) afraid of large amounts of black persons legally arming themselves.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
I love how you're framing this like I'm a racist bad guy because I'm willing to hear the opinions of more people than you are.

And of course, you assume I'm lying, because that's easier than actually having a discussion.

Not really surprising that you didn't really respond to any point I made and used it as another opportunity to make a hollow snarky comment.

The other poster has engaged in lengthy conversation with you.

You're not listening, because you'd rather play the victim.

I'd dismiss you at this point as well. You bring nothing of value to the conversation, because you're not conversing in good faith.

Whether that's because you can't or refuse to acknowledge white privilege, or another reason, I really can't say.
 
Excellent post. A couple of things, I think the problem, however, with the word combo of "white male privilege" - or even just the less complex "white privilege", is evident in this thread, you have a lot of clearly well-educated liberals - who fail to grasp the above - even when its spelled out. For you "privilege" gets its meaning from its relation whiteness and race, for others I think privilege acquires meaning through class even when clearly being inserted in relation to race. It easily becomes (mis)understood a story about absolute social status - instead of relative. But lets assume you can establish a dominant meaning to "white male privilege" through interactions with disenfranchised unemployed Caucasian males, and navigate away from the "let us compare sufferings" narrative, you make them realize that their Caucasian male suffering is in fact "universal". What then? They are failures in every sense of the word, despite race and gender privilege, despite the system rigged in their favor, they are poor and unemployed, they are not in control of their life. They cannot imagine another future through the vocabularies we provide them with (I say "we" because I work in education), problem of alternatives heightened in a two-party system, in an economic system that is driven by accumulation by dispossession. Certainly vocabularies such as "white male privilege" will not spur dreams of alternative futures. There is no common denominator which around all those who are disenfranchised could rally, class is subjugated under gender and race or made irrelevant. My point is that you are unlikely to form solidarity through a white male privilege discourse, and even if you would do not offer any alternative discourses of moral imagination to the "universal conditions" of poverty and unemployment. I think very few people are willing to take the conversation there as it probably leads to a necessity to question certain truths even more sedimented than racial inequality.

Well I guess if you're asking what happens if we could successfully get people to universally realise that being a minority puts you at a disadvantage to those around you from birth, then I guess the next part of that conversation would be, "are you willing to change that and level the playing ground?"

Which I think sadly if we look at voter demographics and the policies attached to the votes, the answer would sadly be a no.

The appetite for that just doesn't exist within the electorate. I mean Trump's whole thing was to pretty much show disdain for EVERYTHING except white voters and he won about two thirds of the white male vote. Even if their votes were for either reasons, the takeaway is that the idea of white supremacy is still acceptable to the electorate for the right price.

So then yeah.....what next after 100% of Americans admit the tables aren't balanced is a good question.

The answer is probably....nothing.

But I think that point actually makes the discussion even more important doesn't it? If anything, that makes it a pretty important point when it comes to race relations, in terms of highlighting the fact that the majority ar ent really all that interested in making the changes needed for the topic to no longer be relevant.

Makes you wonder what kind of heaven and earth had to move for the civil rights act to be passed though. Maybe political pressure in changing times. Things seem to be moving backwards at this particular point in history though.
 
The other poster has engaged in lengthy conversation with you.

You're not listening, because you'd rather play the victim.

I'd dismiss you at this point as well. You bring nothing of value to the conversation, because you're not conversing in good faith.

Whether that's because you can't or refuse to acknowledge white privilege, or another reason, I really can't say.
How exactly am I not acknowledging white privilege?
 
If by 'white male' we mean I, as a white male, am somehow substantively similar to Hitler, get tae fuck. That is fatuous, and the writer sabotages himself by doing that so swiftly.

Othetwise, power structures need changing, if we do want a true meritocracy, which is the underlying intent, right?

I can see why people who aren't invested in this discourse run a mile though, and they shouldn't be a priori written off.
 
BLACK. MEN. WERE. LITERALLY. BANNED. FROM. SERVING. YOU. IGNORANT. WHITE. SUPREMACIST. PIECE. OF. SHIT.

And the group that WAS was given wood replicas instead of real guns

Not only that, but what kind of "white people are great" argument is "white people stopped the Nazis?" What's next, "white people stopped the KKK?"
 

Oppo

Member
Funny how selfl awareness works

dat post count

FyreWukf said:
BLACK. MEN. WERE. LITERALLY. BANNED. FROM. SERVING. YOU. IGNORANT. WHITE. SUPREMACIST. PIECE. OF. SHIT.
Uh, black men definitely served so I'm not sure what this is. ofc they were fucked with and not treated equally but banned? no.
 
Not only that, but what kind of "white people are great" argument is "white people stopped the Nazis?" What's next, "white people stopped the KKK?"

White isn't a very useful historical term re: Hitler, say, at least for much of that history. Race comes into it, obvs, but not in the same.historical sense as in US social history, say. 'White' is not meaningless here, but it is terribly clumsy.
 

Nepenthe

Member
Not only that, but what kind of "white people are great" argument is "white people stopped the Nazis?" What's next, "white people stopped the KKK?"

Did white people ever really stop either? Seems like they're being allowed to run around with their dicks out now.
 

Skilletor

Member
IMHO, not caring about how other people will receive your actions is not the right way to go about things. Especially if you're calling someone an ally. Especially if their loyalty would be questioned heavily if they made remarks in a similar manner to those being discussed here.

I do think that when things get heated, people do forget to put the brakes on sometimes and go a bit too far.

I guess me talking out of a place where the racism isn't even half of what exists in America makes it easier for me to knock someone who deals with harsh racism daily using phrases like "why do white people XYZ", but that language isn't really helpful for anybody.

Most of the time it will just give that person chomping at the bit and holding their tongue during all the civil discourse a reason to start a victimisation/"see, YOU GUYS are the racists" routine that just derails the thread and we end up talking about bullshit and having to defend our original points while the original aggressive drive by posters are nowhere to be seen.

/shrug

Ain't nobody got time for that. I'm trying to do right by my POC friends, my trans friends that are at risk every day of their lives, my gay friends that are afraid to hold hands in public. I'm worried about myself as a black man, my brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, mother, grandmother.

I really don't have time to care about supposed allies that can't separate what's really happening when people are talking about this and what they assume is happening.
 
Lol. So. Get over it.

So, Trump voters don't get to tone police people of color, ever. You can save your criticisms about using "broad strokes" for people who you are successfully fooling. Even then, if you only speak up about that in defense of white people, I doubt you'll fool them for long.
 

Fercho

Member
I believe that the opinion of Trump supporters into this particular subject (and in all subjects, in the world, ever) lacks any kind substance, validity and seriousness. They are like the declaimer at the beginning of South park.
 

Desmond

Member
Article is a load of pish.

I can't help but feel 'triggered' sometimes but these arguments always seem to focus on America, such is the country's influence I suppose. Numerous times on the internet i've been called a White Male to effectively tell me to feck off. I deal with shutting down, racists, and other hate filled shite on a daily basis at work, so I fully support taking us down a peg or two. I can't help but get annoyed when I get attacked personally tho, I'm Irish ffs. lol
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
How exactly am I not acknowledging white privilege?

You kept arguing that you had a right as a non-POC to give black folks your unsolicited opinion on what words they should use. That's literally driven by the privilege of white viewpoints somehow automatically having merit despite lacking any and all context.

So, I understand why the other poster dismissed you.
 
You kept arguing that you had a right as a non-POC to give black folks your unsolicited opinion on what words they should use. That's literally driven by the privilege of white viewpoints somehow automatically having merit despite lacking any and all context.

So, I understand why the other poster dismissed you.
I did not say that I personally should be able to. The closest I came to saying that was literally me proposing a what if scenario. Or possibly that I have had those conversations with people in the past. That doesn't mean I think I should be a part of it literally every time it happens.

I also never said I should be able to go around giving my opinion unsolicited. The closest I came to that was saying that if the subject is brought up in a public forum, that people have the right to speak about it. On a public forum, like GAF, posting a thread is soliciting opinions of a community. You may not personally care about my opinion, which is fine, you're not obligated to.

I merely said that you shouldn't automatically assume someone can't give an informed opinion about a subject because of the way they look, even if it's about a subject that they themselves can't have direct experience with.

I specifically said as much in the second post I made in this thread.

But if you're automatically discounting an opinion of a person because of the way they look, like you did by asking what a male could add to the conversation, you're not going to know if that person could be helpful or not.

I'm not saying that every individuals opinion on everything should be seen as valid. There are uneducated people chiming in on any conversation. I'm just saying that discounting someone's opinion because of the way they look, or because they don't experience life the same way that you do is nonsensical, because we live in a time where people can, and do, take time to try and help people with plights they can't experience themselves.

It's the definition of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I also hope you appreciate the irony in the fact that the only reason we are talking about the N word in the first place is because someone solicited my opinion about something related to it.
 

BLAUcopter

Gold Member
"All white people" "All black people" is this what society has come down to?

Honestly, what the fuck is wrong with you if this is how you think?
 

Nepenthe

Member
"All white people" "All black people" is this what society has come down to?

Honestly, what the fuck is wrong with you if this is how you think?

Acting as if anyone is saying that

A) Generalized statements about demographics are literal, and

B) Society moved past race

is disingenuous.
 

luchadork

Member
honest question.

whats the end goal in mind when you refuse to engage in discussion with people who disagree with you? like what outcome are you hoping for? hows that working out for you so far?
 

Desmond

Member
When did we start saying POC? Wouldnt it be easier to say non whites? White is a colour after all. Though I suppose if you say non white, you still are implying a superiority to some extent by making white the subject?
 
honest question.

whats the end goal in mind when you refuse to engage in discussion with people who disagree with you? like what outcome are you hoping for? hows that working out for you so far?

Depends on the discussion being offered. "I voted for Trump; get over it and stop being mean to white people" is about as obvious of a dead end as is possible.
 
When did we start saying POC? Wouldnt it be easier to say non whites? White is a colour after all. Though I suppose if you say non white, you still are implying a superiority to some extent by making white the subject?

It's not really universal, some minorities hate the term "PoC", some hate "non-white", some hate "minority" lol
 

akira28

Member
honest question.

whats the end goal in mind when you refuse to engage in discussion with people who disagree with you? like what outcome are you hoping for? hows that working out for you so far?

who is refusing to engage anyone along those grounds of "you don't agree with me"? I see that framing here and there, but I don't see the reality behind it.
 

Sanojio

Member
I'm convinced whites in general in North America would die before they give up their privilege. 80% of white men and 53% of white women, including the secular groups and LGBT voted this administration in.

Even if they acknowledge it they will never take steps to reduce the gap. At this point what is there left to do except "you lost the genetic lottery, make the most of it"?
 
"All white people" "All black people" is this what society has come down to?

Honestly, what the fuck is wrong with you if this is how you think?

Come too?

"All black people" was taken to be a truism by the majority of the population for the majority of america's history. Are you seriously acting like this has only become a thing now?
 
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