excelsiorlef
Member
Are you part of the white voting block that votes GOP?
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Boston Globe publishes "In Defense of the White Male" Op-Ed
- Thread starter uncelestial
- Start date
Are you part of the white voting block that votes GOP?
Reality. You can certainly add your input in and people can tell you to fuck off. Just because you have opinion doesn't mean anyone has to give it the time of day.
They act like babies?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Of course they can. I never said they couldn't. The only problem comes in when people to tell me to fuck off just because of how I look and assume things about what my opinion is because of it.
And this is the shit I'm talking about. You would label me as soon you would see me in real life due to my skin color and any discussion about minoritie's problems is a no go with you.
If only black people are allowed to talk about what they should and shouldn't do, would you say the same about white people? That shit leads nowhere.
I understand the viewpoit bc America is really fucked in that respect with all the cops shooting up innocent black people, instiutionalized racism and whatnot but that mindset doesn't help anyone.
Way better put than me.
Nope. And that's really not what has been "discussed" in this thread so far. It's white people and their privilege as a whole. And that's the problem.
Of course it's a specific situation, but in the post I quoted (and previous posts by the same poster), the justification for the exclusion of white people from such a discussion seemed to be that white people can't understand the experiences of black people (just as men can't understand the experiences of women, etc.), and thus have no valuable input. I'm simply clarifying the underlying principle that such a proposition logically rests on. He/she's free to correct me if I'm wrong. But if I'm right, then hypotheticals are absolutely sufficient to show that the principle in question, at least per se without any qualifiers, fails.
Captin Quacker
Member
Tbf they're new to all this
excelsiorlef
Member
The guy gave zero context for what actually caused the conversation and wrote a piece in which he wants thanks for white people stopping the literal white supremacist Nazis.
I trust his perception of things on some level barely above 0.
And I don't entertain flights of fancy based on a hypothetical option on BLM told to hypothetical black people in a hypothetical situation, because there's zero context but already an immediate assumption of victimization based on squat.
These discussions always boil down to " you scaring your allies, be quieter, try to make your struggles more palatable to them or they you going to be bigots".
The goalposts never stop
Is there a specific example of this happening? What was the subject? What was the direction of the conversation?
People will do that. Per their right to tell you to fuck off for whatever reason.
You can ignore them, not respect their opinion, and move on. Per your right to do just that.
If a person is engaging in the bolded, do you honestly think a meta-discussion about the merits of doing that will be fruitful?
Why insist on entering a conversation with people whom you have reason to believe don't want to converse with you?
White people have been telling black people what they should or shouldn't be doing for decades. They can fall back on this one.
Not every conversation is for everyone.
As a white person, what would you add to a conversation about whether or not black people should say nigga? You know that's what my post was about, correct?
excelsiorlef
Member
No one other than black folk should tell black folk how to handle the N word.
How are you making yourself a victim of a post that wasn't even directed at you?
Not in my chain of conversation to which you replied to.
And white privilege is a thing so
That was explicitly about the use of a word that no-one other than black people have any right to decide on its usage. Full stop
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I mean, I was literally just told to generally mind my own business when it comes to these subjects by someone.
Every conversation had in a public forum is. You're allowed to discount what someone says if you don't like it, but there is no reason that a well reasoned white person can't have their opinion heard about a subject that doesn't directly effect them.
Nope, not it isn't. Literally just wanted to jump in to say that. Stand behind what you say, and if the stuff you have said in the past paint a picture of your bias then deal with it.
And most black people in my experience will tell you to fuck right off if you offer you opinion on the N word. If you're still shocked or surprised as to why that is as a white person then you are making it about you, a white person when talking about a word used by white people and other groups to degrade the black community. You can't just ignore the history and context of that because you've got an opinion.
That's why many will tell you to fuck off. You still don't get it and you're making a black issue about yourself.
You mean the specific conversation on the use of the N-word? I mean that's a no brainer, if you aren't black you have no valuable input on that particular conversation and that should be obvious
excelsiorlef
Member
No the context is the word was and is used to oppress black folk for ages now and some black folk have decided to reclaim it for themselves to combat this and some haven't and both are valid decision for black folk to make and there is zero room for white folk to tell them otherwise because it's not their word.
Poor you.
You can try to participate but it really doesn't matter what a non-black person thinks when it comes to black people using nigga.
Arkage
Banned
I think he's arguing that his opinion should be respected (or not) based upon the merits of the claims or rational chain of logic, not on assumptions about his lived experience. A white person debating BLM should not be dismissed on the basis of color, but rather the merits of the argument. Granted, many (if not most) white people who argue against something like BLM are doing so from their ass (especially on social media) and can be ignored. But those who are honestly engaging in the topic with reasoned concerns shouldn't be immediately thrown to the wolves as racist, privileged know-nothings. Even minorities who voice concerns about the movement or bad cases that are lionized, are then labelled an Uncle Tom due to BLM morphing into a virtue signal. One must literally defend everything the movement does to be considered a real ally. Voicing concern or criticism is equivalent to betrayal.
Exactly. This theory is basically giving white people the right to tell minorities to stop talking about "white privilege" since they don't live life as a white person and can't speak to whether this privilege is a real "lived experience" or just statistical noise. (To be clear, I know it isn't statistical noise) This is the problem when placing "lived experience" at the top of the truth pyramid, as the left so often does. It can easily turn against you.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Why? What if my opinion about the N word is that it's perfectly reasonable for black people to say it because they're attempting to declaw the word and turn it into a term of affection within their community? Why should my opinion, which is the same one shared by most in the black community, be discounted and assumed unreasonable just because of the color of my skin?
You say that, yet I've had plenty of conversations about it with black people and no one ever shits on me or tries to make me feel unwelcome just because I'm white.
Because black people, surprisingly enough, don't like hearing the same tired ass response from a white person repeated a million times. White people going,"Man the N word is ugly, we shouldn't say it" is just a broken record at this point and adds nothing to the conversation except white people get to feel like they're apart of something they';re not.
What if some black people find that unreasonable because they think no one should use it?
I get that you think you should have a say in what black people should or shouldn't do but not for this.
Firstly, white people telling black people what to do, while terrible and a historical (and contemporary) reality, is nontrivially distinct from a white person providing an opinion on a particular topic. There are exceptions, but generally speaking, when day-to-day Joe Whiteguy offers up his opinion on the N-word, he's not seeking to impose this opinion through de jure or de facto racism.
Second, I'm still not sure of the principle that even requires that white people stay out of the conversation in the first place. But again, if that principle is in fact that people should not be participating in discussions pertaining to groups who have a lived experience which differs from their own, that seems intuitively troubling.
A lot of talk about white privilege the past couple pages. I agree that there is white privilege, generally speaking, for the average white person. The problem is this, people are individuals and have unique experiences that shape their lives. When people dominate the conversation with white privilege with this broad strokes approach it doesn't feel terribly different than when people make broad stroke assumptions about other races.
People are individuals and as much as you talk about a "system designed to benefit only the white male", I can't imagine that kind of argument would resonate with say the father of a white child who is shot by a cop and then the cop subsequently gets away with the crime. I don't think it'd resonate with a white person who was a victim of a child sex predator, or someone of low intelligence, poor economic situation whatever that is unable to seek out a job which only allows them to live from pay check to pay check the rest of their life, or struggles to pay for medication or someone who suffers mental illness and cannot work, someone who is wrongfully convicted of a crime and spends years in prison.
Of course, I'm not at all implying those problems don't exist for all races but we're talking about individuals here that are not given quite the advantages in life that I think people assume. I really do think the problem is more to do with class than race. That doesn't mean there aren't unique issues within racial equality that need to be fixed. There's a problem with our prison system, with how cops are treating black people, trouble with schools in inner cities I acknowledge all of that.
People are individuals and as much as you talk about a "system designed to benefit only the white male", I can't imagine that kind of argument would resonate with say the father of a white child who is shot by a cop and then the cop subsequently gets away with the crime. I don't think it'd resonate with a white person who was a victim of a child sex predator, or someone of low intelligence, poor economic situation whatever that is unable to seek out a job which only allows them to live from pay check to pay check the rest of their life, or struggles to pay for medication or someone who suffers mental illness and cannot work, someone who is wrongfully convicted of a crime and spends years in prison.
Of course, I'm not at all implying those problems don't exist for all races but we're talking about individuals here that are not given quite the advantages in life that I think people assume. I really do think the problem is more to do with class than race. That doesn't mean there aren't unique issues within racial equality that need to be fixed. There's a problem with our prison system, with how cops are treating black people, trouble with schools in inner cities I acknowledge all of that.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Voicing an opinion on something doesn't necessarily mean you're trying to direct people to think the way you do. Ive met black people who find it's use unreasonable, and I was willing to have a discussion about it with them and hear about their perspective on things. Especially in this case, where I think a reasonable argument can be made on either side.
You are not adding anything to the conversation. Do you think they don't already know that. We are not saying your opinion is wrong or unreasonable. We are saying it is not needed and doesn't add do the conversation. Do you think if your view was different it would affect how your black friends use the word. Now if one of the other black people took offense they could have a discussion and it might change. You they would probably just say "ok".
The talk of white privilege is that the cop who shot that white guys kid will probably get persecuted because they're white. Much the same people lose their shit over a little white girl going missing but dozens of little black girls? They don't give a shit. Those terrible things happening to a white person and that white person not acknowledging it doesn't mean white privilege isn't something that exists or that its incredibly pervasive. Its just mean they're more concerned about their own situation.
So with the exception of the N-word's particular context, you're okay with white people participating in discussions about race, esp. issues particular to black people?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Which is fine. I'm not trying to be the driving force behind change every time I voice my opinion about something. But that's a far different circumstance than someone preemptively telling me to mind my own business just because I look different.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Sometimes I forget why I have certain people on Ignore. Then I see them quoted by others and am quickly reminded. It's so liberating exorcising that garbage from your retina. Much less wasted time. Much more reasonable people to respond to.
But all of the problems you list would de facto be worse for a person of colour, of course there are people who will struggle with idea that they have privilege when they generally experience hardships. But those hardships would/could be worse. Often people in those dire situations end up blaming the 'other' and vote against their own interests of trying to promote equality that will result in their benefit as well as the benefit of people of colour. It happens all the time in the UK and the US and it's infuriating
excelsiorlef
Member
Depends on what they have to offer.
I also think it;s important to sometimes allow black folk to talk amongst themselves without anyone else present.
-hal-
Member
What's interesting about this article is that it laments lumping all white men into a group... and then proceeds to lump all white men into a group in order to chronicle achievements and misdeeds.
The interesting thing about this thread is that it mirrors the article in some ways. People are angry about being categorized by their skin color or sex organs... and then circle the wagons and retreat into that very group. And then in defense, they group other people by those same criteria.
Hypocrisy, people. As long as we spend more time focusing on our differences and less time focusing on our similarities -- that we are all human beings -- we are going to continue the cycle.
The interesting thing about this thread is that it mirrors the article in some ways. People are angry about being categorized by their skin color or sex organs... and then circle the wagons and retreat into that very group. And then in defense, they group other people by those same criteria.
Hypocrisy, people. As long as we spend more time focusing on our differences and less time focusing on our similarities -- that we are all human beings -- we are going to continue the cycle.
I'm not sure if that's true. I think cops just tend to shoot less white kids.
Take this man for example: the cop who killed his son still works for the police department in his town. No justice, like for people of color.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/what-i-did-after-police-killed-my-son-110038
His whole approach is very goofy and gives off the vibe that he was holding a grudge against his student.
rackham
Banned
Honestly, why bother responding to a post like that. People like that already made up their mind.
Let me post that Boogie gif of meeting up in the middle where it's a fucking fantastic place to be.
My point still stands that minorities still get the short end of the stick in the same shitty situation as a White person. The white person not realizing this or acknowledging it says a lot more about them than anything else. Just look at the reaction to the crack epidemic compared to the opioid epidemic is being treated.
Dunno, I'm not really white. I used it myself when hanging out with some friends when I was younger and later I thought about how black people used the deragotry term and formed it into something entirely else, taking it away from the racists.
Same thing with Turks in Germany and the word "Kanacke." And whether that's a good thing or if it helps said racists (most of all in America) keeping up their stereotypes in some ways and what good it does identifiying with such words.
If you would see me in real life you would tell me to stfu tho, and thats sad. maybe you'll do here as well, who knows.
I never said anyone should tell black folk how to handle the word. Discussing something isn't the same thing as telling someone to do something.
And I'm not making myself a victim, just trying to convey how that mindset isn't benefiting anyone and used myself as an example.
It is a thing no doubt. It's also the reason that helped developing instiutionalized racism and minorities, especially black folks suffering on a daily basis and having to work twice as hard as white people.
Which leads to black folk looking at white people as either racists, people who are ok with racists or people who somehow proved they actively do something against the shit. Which is a pretty hard thing to do when you don't know people personally.
I doubt black people actively decide on it's usage anyway, except when some idiot wants to discuss whether he can use it or not, which , at least as far I'm concerned, rarely happens.
The discussion is about what black people should or should not being doing when it comes to saying nigga. So a person who is not black who gives an opinion that is anything but "I am not black I have no input." will be telling black people what they think we should or shouldn't be doing.
You're more than welcome to try to push your way into a conversation about us using it but don't expect the same reaction you get from the anecdotal black people you claim are okay with it.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
I love how white people need to make up fantasy arguments made by them in a fantasy world regarding BLM and then being shut down by fantasy black people as a ACTUAL POINT to why they should and must be part of the conversation.
I mean lets be frank here.
We all know that this is just code for gasslighting and derailing the conversation.
I mean we have had PAGE of people asking what the burning questions they yearn to ask and the information.
Yet none can step up.
I mean lets be frank here.
We all know that this is just code for gasslighting and derailing the conversation.
I mean we have had PAGE of people asking what the burning questions they yearn to ask and the information.
Yet none can step up.
You new to the Internet? That shit happens all the damn time even here on Neogaf
The issue here that a lot of minorities are expressing can be summed up as "Why do white people express this need to be heard literally everywhere, even in places that they have little to no insightful input?" I mean, the very question itself is a highlighting of white privilege, the insistence that white people are owed the right of entering any and all minority spaces to voice their opinions on a minority's social ills- regardless of what those minorities say about it- is one that is inherently coercive and forceful. On top of that, it ignores the fact that the question is being asked in a context where white people have no shortage of places and outlets to be heard in conversations regarding social ills in comparison to minorities, no shortage of people willing to listen to them and even give them financial compensation to repeat things that minorities tell with actual lived experiences, and one of where the social castes and hierarchies of race remain in play at all times even in situations where there is an overall camaraderie between white people and racial minorities. All of these things by default change the nature of any given conversation that can be had about any given subject in the same way that our language changes depending upon whether or not we're speaking to someone of lower (a child) or higher (our boss) authority than us, meaning specific conversations are either going to change to some degree or just not be conducted at all in many groups by the very act of a white person being present.
excelsiorlef
Member
Almost every single post you've made has come with an assumption of victimization from the person you''re replying too...
I assume you've stopped using it?
This is almost literally accurate... why do you make it sound like an unfair assumption?
What are you basing this on? Have you spoken to actual black people about it? I have had plenty of discussions with other black people about its use and whether or not we should be using it.
We are not a monolith despite what some of you may think and there are plenty of black people who don't think black folks should be using it.
Let's assume someone with authentically conceived opinions who appears at least prima facie reasonable and tolerant of other opinions -- not because I take this to be even close to the reality of things in many cases, but because I believe it's a sufficient hypothetical to show that white people should not be excluded from discussions relevant to black people in toto.
As to your second point, I certainly agree with that, as I would with any group. Everyone should be allowed to talk with whomever they would like.
Fine, perhaps in some limited sense, but then under this rubric providing literally any opinion ever is telling someone what to do, and that hardly seems wrong.
At any rate, you still haven't clarified whether I am correct in asserting the principle that leads you to your belief that white people should stay out of discussions pertaining to black people in America.
Captin Quacker
Member
Again no one's baring white people from the conversation
But They shouldn't be shocked when they walk in uninvited and inject a opinion no one ask for
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I mean, I never really have to push. It's been natural conversation between two people who care about each others opinions. Just because it has to be a constant push with you doesn't mean it's a constant push with everyone.
I think I'll just continue doing what I'm doing considering I've never run into a problem with it in real life, and the only people who have ever criticised me for it are internet people like you who have so little experience with who I am that it's hard to take your opinion on me and how I act seriously.