excelsiorlef
Member
I'm not playing this vague hypothetical game.
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Boston Globe publishes "In Defense of the White Male" Op-Ed
- Thread starter uncelestial
- Start date
I'm not playing this vague hypothetical game.
And based on all of our interactions on GAF I will continue to think you're full of shit when it comes to anything having to do with race and black people.
Keep fighting the good fight though, someone might believe your nonsense.
Ahh the classic,"You don't know me!" response despite you posting tons of times in here to let us know over and over who you are and what you believe. I think we have a pretty good idea already.
its that 'temper your own actions and words' tactic, forcing the other side to bend to their argument because they imply the left is acting in the extreme.
there's no loud voice saying "hey potential allies, when you're hanging out with bigots and playing stalking horse for the alt-right and neo-fascism, you damage any credibility you might have had as an ally, because you're no longer on the same side, and it's blatantly apparent to anyone not trying to pretend to care about both sides."
and if there was, I don't think it would stop these undercut wearing social intellectuals. stopping to think how black and brown people feel hasn't shown up in their skillset yet.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I'll second that opinion. Zen_Arcade has no zen.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
How would you address the issue of white people derailing and gasslighting these topics?
I would argue that the conversation would then turn from talking about strategies and idea to focusing on the white persons knowledge.
I mean we have that problem of people with very little knowledge of the topic trying to question thing like privilege doesn't move the discussion forward.
I did because i don't see these friends anymore, sadly. If i would happen to see them tomorrow and they greeted me the way they did back then I would probably do the same.
Because it's not a basis for an actual discussion. Nobody you label that way would want one, rightful or unrightful.
Uhm yeah, who do you think i used the N word with? Also my stepfather whom I've known since birth comes from Cameroon and had to experience some awful shit as well. Whenever he even heard the word he would flip out. I obviously didn't use it in his presence in a casual way. Nor did I in the presence of my Jamaican godfather. I always thought of it as a generational and geographical thing how people react to it.
Your last sentence is what i was trying to get at tho. I'm fairly certain what you mean by "some of you" and it annoys the fuck out of me. I've experienced some really fucked up race related stuff that almost ruined my life. I won't go into detail about in this thread but man... All I'm saying is that "white people" aren't a monolith either. and when I then get grouped with "white people" and it's assumed i benefited from some privilege or how the other poster I quoted says painting all of them with that broad brush is fair and ok i get kinda triggered.
excelsiorlef
Member
So we can't speak to the truth?
You opened the door for it when you said that participation in such a conversation "depends on what they have to offer," so that's a little strange for you to say. All I'm doing is giving you an example of what someone might have to offer. It's actually a rather logical progression of the conversation we were having.
I don't exactly know what a "vague" hypothetical is, but if you want you can let me know what information is missing in order for you to "play the game" and I will gladly oblige.
I would argue that such instances of derailing or obstructionism, whether through lack of knowledge or some other factor, don't have to inhere in black-white discussions about race issues. Those instances count against the particular white person for failing to participate respectfully in the discussion or coming into the discussion with an inadequate knowledge of race relations, but they do not count against the idea of a white person participating in such discussions in general.
Oh please enlighten me as to what I meant.
Where did I write that white people are a monolith?
I am pretty sure "some of you" is the direct opposite of that.
Kaep did the most benign protest ever, and they blamed the failing of a multi billion dollar a year industry on him
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I mean, you can think that. It's not like your opinion really matters to me.
Yeah, because a handful of posts in an internet forum is a great way to judge something like the overall character and life experience of another human being. You definitely get a full picture because you saw me post on NEOGAF. You're acting like I've laid out my full life here, when all I've done is share a few experiences and what I gained from them.
The fact that this is your mindset is why a lot of serious discussion here and turned laughable.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Who exactly is this author arguing against?
I don't think many people are saying white men are inferiorjust that we've inherited privilege and should be mindful of it. And that we should try to make positions of power more diverse.
I don't think many people are saying white men are inferiorjust that we've inherited privilege and should be mindful of it. And that we should try to make positions of power more diverse.
Well if we're getting into hypothetical situations how about a known pedophile is going to give a talk to children on sex ed. Perhaps a serial rapist can tell some sexual abuse victims about what to wear. Maybe some Jewish folks would like to hear about hope the Holocaust is fake from a Neo Nazi. The hypotheticals work against the point you're trying to make.
excelsiorlef
Member
Because that's the end of it. It depends. That's my answer. I'm not going to play hypotheticals, I'll deal with it as they come in real life.
What else are we supposed to judge you on? Your posts are who you are on this forum so please spare me your indignation.
Oh and that line about someone else's opinions not mattering is hilarious coming from you.
And yet you always seem to try and have a conversation with me in threads about race.
That's as believable as the conversations you claim to have had with black people.
Isn't it a bit strange that, that always seems to happen in threads you post in?
I wonder why that is.
Username1198
Member
People fucking HATE kaep in NorCal. I wear Kaeps jersey during football season, and holy fuck do I get shit on by customers. They ask me why I hate America, why I support BLM, why I hate our troops, why I hate cops EVERY time I wear it.
No one ever says, "Kaeps a bum, niners suck etc. "
And it's always white people who say that shit to me. A few of them I would say are friendly customers that I've know for years, and so I'll try and explain why Kaep knelt, why BLM movement matters, and generally how minorities get shit on and how some white peoples are oblivious to it, case in point Kaeps kneeling.
But I just get he ole hand wave sigh. Now I just wear his jersey to trigger people. Fuck em.
What I mean is that you already assumed that I'm "one of them". I guess it's hard to not see black and white when you live in America.
And you're right, that really is the opposite, my bad. And if it came across as if I think of black people as a monolith, that wasn't my intention. Far from it.
It's not the truth though. Why do white people who are against racist bs have to prove they are? That's the same bullshit like muslim's and radical islamists.
What else than voting or little protesting can they do? It happens more and more often that if they try to speak up in a solidly way they are met with a "what do you know" attitude. It doesn't help anyone.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
1) Because you often say pretty silly things about race.
2) Isn't it strange that this still happens to you when I don't challenge your opinion in a thread? Or even stranger that it happens in threads that neither of us have posted in? I know I'm not the only person who you have these debates with, so why is it me that this supposedly follows around?
No it's not strange, because literally every discussion about race on this forum ends up in a debate between two groups who don't see eye to eye. It's not something that personally follows either of us around.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
I don't know if you realise it, but by trying to cut the privilege that you have for being Caucasian in a country like America is actually the same thing as dismissing the things that people who aren't do not have.
You can't just state a list of things that affects Caucasians and say "therefore we cant talk about white privilege".
Talking about white privilege isn't meant to discredit hardships that Caucasian people suffer. That is quite literally absolutely nothing to do with it.
Again I don' know if you realise, but simply equating the effects of white privilege to things that happen to both Caucasian and non Caucasian people literally only shows that you either don't know or don't appreciate what it is.
For instance.
Everyone accepts a Caucasian person can be poor, but do they consciously decide not to name their kids in line with their cultures for fear of future employment opportunities when an employer sees their resume?
Everyone accepts a Caucasian person can be abused, but do Caucasian ladies spend hundreds of dollars a month hiding what their hair really looks like because they feel like to look like themselves is to look inferior and unattractive based on the concepts of beauty they see around them from birth?
Everyone accepts a Caucasian person can be shot, but do they feel the need to give their sons "the talk" about how to not get shot by a policeman? Just be polite, no sudden moves or he might kill you, kind of talk? While watching people who look like them get killed by police for no reason, with no overall consequence like its a normal thing?
Everyone accepts a Caucasian person can be desperate, but do they have to deal with the idea of a political party that is quite clearly racist being one of the major parties Americans subscribe to and all of the shit that comes with their policy making aimed at them?
The problem is that people want to "counter" the idea that their race allows them a different life and thousands of little things they've never even had to consider as part of their lives that minorities live through on a daily basis, with universally existing problems the fact that they're poor, or cant find a job.
The things don't mix. Its neither here nor there. Your wealth, economic status in general, health, or basically anything else doesn't detract from the fact that your race affords you privileges that others don't have. Its a totally different discussion.
Its like an amputee (actually more like a person born with no legs) saying they wished they could have the freedoms of able bodied people and start talking about the differences in rights and perceptions etc, and the able bodied person getting offended that they dare bring up the conversation and start to run off lists of all the things that abled bodied people can suffer from which ironically is also basically everything a disabled person can suffer from.....but without being disabled.
That's the level of disconnect when people react this way to a discussion of white privilege. Its like a world where disabled people have to fight to make people realise that being disabled actually puts them at a disadvantage, and people get angry at them for even daring to make that observation or have the conversation about it. And get told that people will vote against disabled people if they don't stop trying to have a conversation about it or keep trying to make people realise the enhanced opportunities that come with being able bodiedThat's the best way I can put it.
Nobody is trying to say that Caucasians can't suffer because of white privilege, its just to say that things are not equal. That's all it means.
Ahh now here comes the white splaining. Even better.
I would argue that there is blatant irrational bias evidenced from these voluntarily chosen radical positions/actions in each of these scenarios which would preclude that possibility of civil discourse, and which makes them so dissimilar from that of a white person speaking with a black person about race issues as to be hardly applicable. I'll happily grant that there are lines to be drawn in the sand regarding who can speak about what; that's not the issue. If someone chooses to rape someone or chooses to deny the Holocaust, that's a priori evidence that, even before a discussion occurs, one can already say it will be fruitless. What such evidence do you see existing which automatically precludes a white person, whose supposedly disqualifying characteristic is completely out of his or her hands and need not bear on his or her capacity for rational discussion, from providing his or her opinion on a race issue?
One of who? Your statement implied that you felt black people were a monolith so I included you with the people who do. If you don't well good for you, you're not one of those people.
Okay so are you done with your little temper tantrum over not being able to tell black folks what to do?
If you think the things I say about race are silly(not really surprising from someone like yourself) you're more than welcome to never respond to me again.
excelsiorlef
Member
You said proved in your initial post as in past tense, if that was a typo I apologize as it seemed to me you were saying the groups is white people who have proved they oppose racism
You also listed two other groups racists and ok with racists.
Those last two are the literal description of the White GOP voter.
And like again white people who speak earnestly in solidarity are not generally told to shut up. These hypotheticals where a significant number of black folk are just brow beating white allies is based in some weird fiction you keep repeating.
But what else can they do? They can challenge racists members of their family or racist friends they may have, that's a huge one.
You seem to be under the impression that you can't give this opinion, I'm saying go ahead but don't expect it to be warmly welcomed or even acknowledged and for good reason. If you can't see the reasons or worse don't seem to care and the most important thing is you get your opinion out no matter what then this becomes all about you and what you can or can't do then the actual topic at hand.
That's fine when talking about an individual life, but it doesn't answer any normative questions about when a white person, broadly speaking, should or shouldn't be allowed to participate in discussions about race.
But, if that's the end of it, that's the end of it. Thank you for responding; you've sped up my workday enormously.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
1) I never said I should be able to tell black people what to do. Nor did I throw a temper tantrum. Though it's not surprising that's the way you frame the situation. Maybe that's why people are always combative towards you in discussions on here?
2) I respond to them because it's interesting to see how your mind works in the situation. Unlike you, I'm more than open to having discussions with people, even when I don't think what they're saying makes much sense. It's good to hear perspectives, even from people you think are generally unreasonable about a subject.
Oh I am sure there are plenty of people like you who have issue with black people and discussions about race/racism.
Well go have those discussions with the very real black people you claim to know.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I love how you're framing this like I'm a racist bad guy because I'm willing to hear the opinions of more people than you are.
And of course, you assume I'm lying, because that's easier than actually having a discussion.
Not really surprising that you didn't really respond to any point I made and used it as another opportunity to make a hollow snarky comment.
No, we're on the same page. I'm well aware that I literally can give my opinion on anything, of course. I am going beyond that and arguing that there is no reason a white person's opinion shouldn't be given weight, provided it is arrived upon genuinely through some sort of reliable belief-forming process, and the person in question understands that his or her opinion is subject to criticism both valid and invalid, and revision upon scrutiny.
As I mentioned in an earlier post responding to someone else, I agree that there are the exceptions in the case of individuals who only care about getting their opinion out and don't seem to care -- as with any argument, we generally, and rightfully, disregard the opinions of those who don't seem to listen and only care about getting their unfounded two cents in. But the failures of those individuals to participate meaningfully in discussion is not a count against the general concept of white participation in race issues.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
Come on guys, let talk about issues, not each other.
Unless I see you talking shit about pineapple pizza.
Unless I see you talking shit about pineapple pizza.
Once again, you're more than welcome to stop responding to me and go have your discussions with the very real black people you claim to know.
Black people who just happen to agree with all of your scary insightful points you try to make about race and black people.
That shit is vile.
But you're right, this is my last post responding to his nonsense.
You already fucked up the conversation before it even started.
This is what we be talkin' about.
John Rabbit
Banned
Holy SHIT at the navel-gazing in that article.
"You're a white male."
"STOP LABELING ME."
"You're a white male."
"STOP LABELING ME."
If the world were equal for all races and sexes, then you would have a point.
Shit didn't stop with your ancestors- it continues today being done living family, friends, and peers.
Discrimination is not ancient history- it is alive, breathing, and getting worse the ideal of equality is not compatible with white male privilege.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Dude you're really bad at framing. Did you ever think that maybe I feel this way about race BECAUSE of the discussions I've had about race with people?
Of course not, because again, that makes the argument way easier for you.
Again, I'm only white by skin color, not by name or heritage but maybe you were speaking in broader terms about people who feel like that and not race related.
Also I'm sorry but i have no clue where my wording was so bad that it seemed like I implied black people are a monolith.
I know thats good for me haha, the problem is due to my appearence some people automatically assume I am one of those people.
I always kinda fail at realizing you only speak in terms of GOP voters, sorry about that. And i never said anyting about brow beating, more like simply not accepting or not seeing as much value in it. The discussions on this forum alone keep getting worse.
I mean look at this:
How is that helping anything? maybe I'm imagining things but since Trump is a thing and cop shootings just keep on happening this shit increases. "They" and "We" get thrown around way more often.
Also I had to challenge part of my family often enough because of how I'm called and where my father came from. Didnt see them in a long ass itme. And if you aren't affected yourself cutting ties with your family can be a bit much. Since that's what it often results in when you do challenge them and their beliefs or worldviews i can imagine they rather wouldn't. Friends is another thing, though personally I would either beat them up or just never talk to them again. Or both.
Again well put.
I'm not really sure who you are talking to in this post but it clearly isn't me.
wake me up when some one other than white men drop nuclear bombs on civilians and/or are the catalyst of the majority of wars on the planet. Thanks.
but to really speak on the article this is exactly what happens to many white people when they are actually being categorized as they do minorities the backlash and pulling back when they arent considered the default for humanity anymore vs just a slice of humanity its weird to see, but I see it more and more when they now arent the whole focus of what is humanity.
As soon as you call someone white it like makes them feel like a minority or something instead of them feeling like they are the default human while other people of color are "others" and less than human.
but to really speak on the article this is exactly what happens to many white people when they are actually being categorized as they do minorities the backlash and pulling back when they arent considered the default for humanity anymore vs just a slice of humanity its weird to see, but I see it more and more when they now arent the whole focus of what is humanity.
As soon as you call someone white it like makes them feel like a minority or something instead of them feeling like they are the default human while other people of color are "others" and less than human.
I never claimed that you were white. Non-black PoC sometimes think black people are a monolith as well.
Because America just showed on the biggest stage what it thinks about the minority groups in America, and people keep trying to tell us that it wasn't racism, or whatever else.
Yeah that's where I misinterpreted you. Sorry haha, that's a personal issue. People love to see me as white when im in the street at night and they search for someone to fuck up and people love to see me as a minority when im applying for jobs or back then at school.
Anyway, thanks for your time.
I think this is apart of it. The common sentiment is that white people don't like categorization of people based upon their immutable demographics- especially if that categorization is being done to point out a cultural more- without simultaneously understanding that we live in a world of express categorization based upon immutable characteristics of minorities, while white people have the freedom of presumed individuality. To then call a white man a "white man" puts them on an even playing field with everyone else regardless of context and is subsequently inconceivable.
Krappadizzle
Member
Very well put and I agree. We shouldn't be painting super broad strokes at all in these days. It puts people into classifications that don't quite fit and can really ruin the conversation.
Patriarchy means that men are given agency above all. Similar to white supremacy.
White men have done more evil and more good in recent history because white men have been the disproportionately the ones who were allowed to do evil or good in western society. They were the only ones given agency over their lives and the capacity to be great or terrible.
Smashing the patriarchy won't end evil, nor will smashing white supremacy, but what it will end is the insidious system that denies other groups the opportunity to do anything of note, good or evil. Dealing with evil is a separate problem
The op-ed underpins some basic sexist and racist assumptions while not even noticing it.
White men have done more evil and more good in recent history because white men have been the disproportionately the ones who were allowed to do evil or good in western society. They were the only ones given agency over their lives and the capacity to be great or terrible.
Smashing the patriarchy won't end evil, nor will smashing white supremacy, but what it will end is the insidious system that denies other groups the opportunity to do anything of note, good or evil. Dealing with evil is a separate problem
The op-ed underpins some basic sexist and racist assumptions while not even noticing it.
Well yeah, i know that. The change in rethoric and attitude is understanable. That doesn't change the fact it doesn't help to engage in any valuable discussion. Maybe a bigger getting part of PoC is fed up with having discussions but that doesn't solve anything.
It's difficult to approach all of this in any reasonable manner, i know. When even something like BLM gets used by these assholes to make people with serious concerns look like savages and whatnot at some point people are fed up.
But speaking in terms of "They" and "We" only excludes the people from the other side that actually want to change things. And in the cases i quoted "They" wasn't meant as "only the racists".
Captin Quacker
Member
Actual allies don't need clarification nor do they need a pat on the back because they showed up or deterred by mean words
They also don't need to get lumped together with actual racists and mysoginists and need dumb quips like yours when they show up.