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Brave |OT| - Change Your Fate
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WordAssassin
Member
Yup. They even talk about it in the featurette about all the deleted/alternate scenes. Really glad they stayed strong and ditched it.
Buckethead
Banned
I wonder what Brenda Chapman went so bananas about.
I'll have to pick up.
I'll have to pick up.
WordAssassin
Member
Ffuuucckkkk, the animatics for the bear fight are so detailed that its basically 2D hand-drawn animation. Looks fuckin incredible.
They dont talk abiut it on the DVD (or if they do I havent gotten there yet) but one of the main things was that Disney apparently really, really pushed for Merida to wind up with a prince. Like forced story revisions. But it just didn't work out, it took too much away from the mother-daughter core dynamic, and they finally relented.
Buckethead
Banned
Ugh. Seems like that Disney merger was a terrible idea after all.
It's so counter intuitive to Merida's character too. Terrible.
It's so counter intuitive to Merida's character too. Terrible.
WordAssassin
Member
I wouldn't go that far at all. So far this is the only time we've heard of Disney tampering with something at Pixar - and lets not forget, when I'm saying Disney, I'm saying Disney Animation, AKA John Lasseter. We don't know all the details, if he was pressured by the board to have Merida married or if he himself thought it was a good idea and just turned out to be wrong. But as a whole Disney has let Pixar operate on its own, the way it always has, since the merger. And lets not pretend this is the first time he's upended the table in terms of rewriting a story or swapping out a director, and it's never been a bad call. (Ratatouille's story pre-Brad Bird was really lame, IMO, thank God they changed it) Marriage aside, we have no way of knowing the quality of Brave before Brenda was replaced and rewrites started. When you're as close to a project as she was its very easy to get tunnel vision and when you don't take constructive criticism, your product can suffer greatly from it. Look at the Star Wars prequels.
Not only that, but the merger arguably saved Disney Animation's ass from certain doom. They were in a bad place heading down a dark path before they merged with Pixar and Lasseter was put in charge. There is an immediate spike in quality when looking at their output when he started running things.
Not only that, but the merger arguably saved Disney Animation's ass from certain doom. They were in a bad place heading down a dark path before they merged with Pixar and Lasseter was put in charge. There is an immediate spike in quality when looking at their output when he started running things.
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
I thought this was great. Didn't really feel the mother daughter dynamic was all that significant or well done. Best hair visuals in a movie.
Buckethead
Banned
This thread reminds me I need to finish reading the Art book.
Femmeworth
Banned
In the context of the movie?
It is sad, the movie had a promising start and then...nothing.
Movie was just ok. I was waiting for the 'adventure' part but then all we got was river fishing :/
Kinda felt like a poor mans Tangled. I even enjoyed Shrek Forever After more.
I do like that little gaelic lullaby though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqOmlipOGe0
Kinda felt like a poor mans Tangled. I even enjoyed Shrek Forever After more.
I do like that little gaelic lullaby though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqOmlipOGe0
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
Yeah I just didn't feel all that well done or exceptional.In the context of the movie?
I wish I had access to a blu-ray player so I could see all the extras. One day though, as I bought the 5-disc one so it's not going anywhere.
I also got this today for free, pretty neat:
Cool, how'd you get that?
kame-sennin
Member
I didn't like this movie at all, even thought it was clearly well made. It looked beautiful and the story was pretty tightly constructed. I actually think the problem with Brave is that it's two movies forced into one.
The first movie is a fairytale epic about a princess archer, feuding clans, and a demonic bear. That's the movie they hinted at in the teaser, and I think it's the movie a lot of people were expecting during the first act. But then there's also a very modern story about a mother and daughter in an awkward situation being forced to work through the problems in their relationship. I actually think both concepts are pretty great, but they clash in the film and lead to disappointment for people looking for a more traditional epic. The problem is that fairytales and epic adventures are usually about growing up, and therefore by necessity exclude parental figures from the main plot. That's why most fairytale heroes are orphans (or their parents conveniently drop out of the movie after the first act). Forcing Merida to drag her mother along on her adventure arrests the protagonist's development. She doesn't get to evolve from warrior princess to warrior queen because her mother is always around. Again, I think the mother/daughter drama was a really brilliant and fresh idea for a movie, but it should have been used in a modern setting, not in Pixar's first fairytale.
WordAssassin
Member
So I have it on good authority that the problems with Brave were two-fold:
1) Pixar (not Disney as I said earlier) wanted her to get with a prince
2) It was dark. Like, really dark. Too dark, even.
The second reason is why the directors were swapped - Pixar wanted it to have a little more humor and light-heartedness. I don't know what exactly it was that made Pixar so uncomfortable with it, all I know is that it was just way past what they were willing to put out.
1) Pixar (not Disney as I said earlier) wanted her to get with a prince
2) It was dark. Like, really dark. Too dark, even.
The second reason is why the directors were swapped - Pixar wanted it to have a little more humor and light-heartedness. I don't know what exactly it was that made Pixar so uncomfortable with it, all I know is that it was just way past what they were willing to put out.
We're still using spoilers?
Disney's fairytales follow the formula that you want but the original 'dark' versions weren't like that and there are other fairytales besides. I don't see why Brave suddenly doesn't count as a fairytale because it doesn't follow the disney tropes. And Merida definitely shows growth and maturity at the end of the movie.
kame-sennin
Member
People are picky about that kind of thing. Just didn't want to ruffle feathers.
I didn't say Brave doesn't count as a fairytale. I said Brave is two concepts that don't sit well together in the same film.
Yea she does, but the middle of the film is really lacking in the kind of adventure that creates that growth (save for the attack in Mor'du's layer). The fishing scene is a perfect example of something that was cute, but felt like a total waste of Merida's time - and by extension, the viewer's.
Same thought. Once the curse thing happens it becomes not so good. Overall a decent movie but not really up to Pixar good movies.
The little brothers seemed tacked on. Possibly in an effort to lighten it up? Just so much fail. I'm really not a fan of this movie.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
I love the post-curse stuff mostly from a technical standpoint. The animation in all those sequences, the acting they captured and the subtlety of the changes, is easily the crowning achievement of CG animation to date.
WordAssassin
Member
As far as I'm aware they were around from the start, but you're right in that they were likely there for comic relief. I personally love them and think they're fantastic.
SpeedingUptoStop
will totally Facebook friend you! *giggle* *LOL*
I think the movie they came up with worked, just had a really small scale from what we've come to expect from Pixar. It felt like it only took place in the castle, the woods or the Stonehenge type place. The world was too anchored and it felt as though a lot of the problems might have been alleviated if the Dad was cursed. He's the one with the bear problem and if they had made the father the uptight one and the mother a relaxed one, it would've played a little better. You just stuff the king in the castle with all the clans in this story and it makes the whole world feel marginalized is what I'm getting at here. In addition, the Mother has a bit of a Betty Draper syndrome, just a bit too unlikable to force the point, which is an issue since she's the only other female character in the thing and you're trying to be progressive here. The core story is just too personal, you've got this whole universe that the curse and the lesson don't affect as much aside from breaking the marriage lineage thing. That's just my two cents on how it could've been improved.Also, the Wisps kind of contradict the making your own fate on a conceptual level, but whatevs. It was still Pixar quality IMO, just closer to early Pixar than the sweeping epic type shit people have come to expect. Top notch, ahead of everything else animation, great gags and like I said, what they salavaged worked, it's just one of those flms that leaves you thinking about what could've put it over the moon.
WordAssassin
Member
You probably mean to the characters, but this is also the reason the movie had such development problems - it was much, much too personal a story to Brenda Chapman. Now, there's nothing wrong with making a personal story at all, but it can give you tunnel vision, and it can make you much more sensitive and resistant to criticism, and the movie will suffer from it. Brenda and her daughter have a very strained relationship so this movie was incredibly personal to her and when the Brain Trust tried to change things up for the good of the film she balked hard core and that's what led to the director change, troubled development, and her eventual exit from Pixar.
Femmeworth
Banned
Okay, I know the word "epic" has lost all meaning, but I don't associate it with Pixar.
For all the hate for this film and the talk of Pixar's supposed decline, Brave's win at the Golden Globes has definitely proved that they are by far the best animation studio around.
The win here caps a remarkable run by Pixar at the two major awards and will surely be followed now by a win at the Oscars.
Full list of winners of Best Animated Feature at the Golden Globes and Oscars since their introduction:
Golden Globes:
2006: Cars
2007: Ratatouille
2008: WALL-E
2009: Up
2010: Toy Story 3
2011: Tintin
2012: Brave
Oscars:
2001: Shrek
2002: Spirited Away
2003: Finding Nemo
2004: The Incredibles
2005: Wallace and Gromit: Curse of the Wererabbit
2006: Happy Feet
2007: Ratatouille
2008: WALL-E
2009: Up
2010: TS3
2011: Rango
The only times when Pixar has released a film and failed to win were in 2001 and 2011. Even in those years, they were hard done by for Monsters Inc was superior to Shrek and likewise Cars 2 to Tintin/Rango. They have a 6/7 winning rate at the GG and 6/9 winning rate at the Oscars.
Truly remarkable. Have there ever been better filmmakers in the field of animation, or in the whole of the filmmaking industry. Surely no one else has so consistently produced masterpieces and dominated awards so thoroughly.
Pixar are here and they are here to stay. I look forward to another win next year for the wonderful Monsters University.
The win here caps a remarkable run by Pixar at the two major awards and will surely be followed now by a win at the Oscars.
Full list of winners of Best Animated Feature at the Golden Globes and Oscars since their introduction:
Golden Globes:
2006: Cars
2007: Ratatouille
2008: WALL-E
2009: Up
2010: Toy Story 3
2011: Tintin
2012: Brave
Oscars:
2001: Shrek
2002: Spirited Away
2003: Finding Nemo
2004: The Incredibles
2005: Wallace and Gromit: Curse of the Wererabbit
2006: Happy Feet
2007: Ratatouille
2008: WALL-E
2009: Up
2010: TS3
2011: Rango
The only times when Pixar has released a film and failed to win were in 2001 and 2011. Even in those years, they were hard done by for Monsters Inc was superior to Shrek and likewise Cars 2 to Tintin/Rango. They have a 6/7 winning rate at the GG and 6/9 winning rate at the Oscars.
Truly remarkable. Have there ever been better filmmakers in the field of animation, or in the whole of the filmmaking industry. Surely no one else has so consistently produced masterpieces and dominated awards so thoroughly.
Pixar are here and they are here to stay. I look forward to another win next year for the wonderful Monsters University.
Femmeworth
Banned
Too much stock shouldn't be placed into awards. Nice to see that it won the Golden Globe though. Now for the Oscars.
Out of interest, what did you think about the other Western animated films this year?
I'd say so too, out of what I've seen which is everything but Frankenweenie. Brave just went in a weird direction for me, but it's still okay.
Femmeworth
Banned
Admittedly, Brave is the only one I have seen so far. I typically don't go to the theater and wait for the home video release.
Golden Globe and Oscars are not measurements of quality.
Golden Globe is a popularity contest and Oscars is all about studio pollitics
That said, I would have voted for Brave considering the nominees.
But my favorite english spoken animated full lenght movie is ParaNorman by a HUGE margin
Golden Globe is a popularity contest and Oscars is all about studio pollitics
That said, I would have voted for Brave considering the nominees.
But my favorite english spoken animated full lenght movie is ParaNorman by a HUGE margin
Femmeworth
Banned
I've heard good things about it, but is it progressive like Brave?
Someone over in MovieGAF (aka Movies You Have Watched Recently) linked to an essay a while back about Brave that I quite liked. "Just Another Princess Movie".
Winning a Golden Globe (or an Oscar, for that matter) doesn't prove anything. I agree that Pixar is still the best animation studio (I mean, just look at that track record) but Laika, Disney Animation Studios, even Dreamworks is catching up to them fast, whereas Pixar arguably hasn't produced another outstanding movie since Up
also, Brave is not going to win the Oscar
as far as the message of the movie goes, it's probably the most progressive animated film yet
also, Brave is not going to win the Oscar
I've heard good things about it, but is it progressive like Brave?
as far as the message of the movie goes, it's probably the most progressive animated film yet
I was surprised this was the case. Amusing twist in any case.
I've heard good things about it, but is it progressive like Brave?
Someone over in MovieGAF (aka Movies You Have Watched Recently) linked to an essay a while back about Brave that I quite liked. "Just Another Princess Movie".
Why do movies necessarily have to be progressive? Doesn't automatically mean it will be of good quality. Anyway, while some elements of Paranorman were indeed progressive, I found it to be morally abhorrent. Granted, this is a very minority view.
Femmeworth
Banned
Well, good movies don't have to be progressive but those that are should be recognized.
Interesting. Well, it's next on my Netflix queue.
Understood.
Paranorman does have something pretty progressive for a Western animated film.
It has a homosexual character. However, the reveal is mostly played for laughs.
that's not the important part. The topic of the movie is bullying and learning to accept those who are different. What did you find morally abhorrent about ParaNorman?
Well, I thought that the movie botched its message. They may not have intended it but I noticed some implications I didn't quite like.
Basically, I thought that the movie,
while purportedly about the evils of bullying and importance of tolerance, indirectly excused bullying by portraying the judges(bullies) as simply being scared. This is mentioned several times throughout the film and I take opposition to the implication that bullying is motivated by fear.
More importantly, I though that the film veered into victim blaming territory. In the confrontation between Norman and Agatha, Norman mentions that as Agatha was persecuted(bullied), she became more withdrawn and this caused others(bullied) to be even more scared, thus causing more bullying. Here, I feel that the film portrays victims of bullying to have contributed to their plight.
Also took issue with Norman's ridiculously patronizing words to Agatha at the end. While Agatha was wrong in seeking revenge in the way she did, Norman's attempt to crate a moral equivalence between her actions and that of her persecutors leaves a bad taste in my mouth? How is lashing out at your murderers supposed to be as bad as executing an innocent girl?
In short, I thought that the film shifted too much sympathy towards the perpetrators of bullying at the expense of the victim. I know that good messages can be found about how victims should be react to bullying (not taking revenge, taking solace in friends and loved ones) but I really feel that the film is actively blaming victims for their plight as well. Norman's words about the judges' actions being 'unforgivable' ring false given that the audience is supposed to symphatise with them in the end. After all, they were just scared, apparently.
More importantly, I though that the film veered into victim blaming territory. In the confrontation between Norman and Agatha, Norman mentions that as Agatha was persecuted(bullied), she became more withdrawn and this caused others(bullied) to be even more scared, thus causing more bullying. Here, I feel that the film portrays victims of bullying to have contributed to their plight.
Also took issue with Norman's ridiculously patronizing words to Agatha at the end. While Agatha was wrong in seeking revenge in the way she did, Norman's attempt to crate a moral equivalence between her actions and that of her persecutors leaves a bad taste in my mouth? How is lashing out at your murderers supposed to be as bad as executing an innocent girl?
In short, I thought that the film shifted too much sympathy towards the perpetrators of bullying at the expense of the victim. I know that good messages can be found about how victims should be react to bullying (not taking revenge, taking solace in friends and loved ones) but I really feel that the film is actively blaming victims for their plight as well. Norman's words about the judges' actions being 'unforgivable' ring false given that the audience is supposed to symphatise with them in the end. After all, they were just scared, apparently.
I have a whole host of other, non morally related issues with this film but won't go into that here. I don't think it's terrible, the phenomenal animation alone probably saves it from being a bad movie but it makes me angry as few films do .
you're raising a good point there.
I see it more as an attempt to find an explanation for what motivates people to become bullies, although I can definitely understand why one could interpret it as victim-blaming in some ways.
I don't really believe Norman was directly comparing Aggie's actions to (well, putting them on the same level as) those of the townsfolk who burned her at the stake. Norman says they did "something terrible" and "awful", not 'unforgivable', I just had to check because forgiveness is the other important message of the movie and that'd have been kind of strange otherwise
I think we're not meant to sympathize with what the judge and his accomplice have done in the past, but the fact that they have come to realize their terrible mistake.
I don't really believe Norman was directly comparing Aggie's actions to (well, putting them on the same level as) those of the townsfolk who burned her at the stake. Norman says they did "something terrible" and "awful", not 'unforgivable', I just had to check because forgiveness is the other important message of the movie and that'd have been kind of strange otherwise
I think we're not meant to sympathize with what the judge and his accomplice have done in the past, but the fact that they have come to realize their terrible mistake.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
you're raising a good point there.I see it more as an attempt to find an explanation for what motivates people to become bullies, although I can definitely understand why one could interpret it as victim-blaming in some ways.
I don't really believe Norman was directly comparing Aggie's actions to (well, putting them on the same level as) those of the townsfolk who burned her at the stake. Norman says they did "something terrible" and "awful", not 'unforgivable', I just had to check because forgiveness is the other important message of the movie and that'd have been kind of strange otherwise
I think we're not meant to sympathize with what the judge and his accomplice have done in the past, but the fact that they have come to realize their terrible mistake.
He specifically says, as he's hopping up the floating rock stuff, that she's just as bad as they are. I remember the exact shot.
Isn't this in relation to the fact that she's punishing the entire town though? It's not like her punishment is affecting only those that wronged her.
Really need to watch this again.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Yes. But they were saying the movie never compares the two. 'less I misread it.
EDIT:
And yes, you need to, if only to cry again when
the Jon Brion music kicks in and the judge fades away I mean the look on the dude's face omfg
here's the dialogue from this scene (spoiler warning, obviously)
Aggie: "They hurt me!"
Norman: "So you hurt them back?"
Aggie: "I wanted everyone to see how rotten they are"
Norman: "You're just like them, Agatha"
Aggie: "No, I'm not!"
Norman: "You are a bully!"
Aggie: "No ... I'm ... not!"
so yeah, he's saying that she is no better than the villagers who killed her. I don't think this necessarily implies that Norman thinks cursing those who are responsible for her death is as bad as burning a little girl. The intention of this scene is to show that Aggie herself has become a bully and is causing harm not only to the bad people (the zombies) but also the good ones, but perhaps they could have given Norman some slightly different lines.
Norman: "So you hurt them back?"
Aggie: "I wanted everyone to see how rotten they are"
Norman: "You're just like them, Agatha"
Aggie: "No, I'm not!"
Norman: "You are a bully!"
Aggie: "No ... I'm ... not!"
so yeah, he's saying that she is no better than the villagers who killed her. I don't think this necessarily implies that Norman thinks cursing those who are responsible for her death is as bad as burning a little girl. The intention of this scene is to show that Aggie herself has become a bully and is causing harm not only to the bad people (the zombies) but also the good ones, but perhaps they could have given Norman some slightly different lines.
this should probably be discussed in the ParaNorman thread
incredible scene, by the way.
you're raising a good point there.I see it more as an attempt to find an explanation for what motivates people to become bullies, although I can definitely understand why one could interpret it as victim-blaming in some ways.
I don't really believe Norman was directly comparing Aggie's actions to (well, putting them on the same level as) those of the townsfolk who burned her at the stake. Norman says they did "something terrible" and "awful", not 'unforgivable', I just had to check because forgiveness is the other important message of the movie and that'd have been kind of strange otherwise
I think we're not meant to sympathize with what the judge and his accomplice have done in the past, but the fact that they have come to realize their terrible mistake.
I distinctly remember
the word 'unforgivable' being used. Could be wrong though.
And I do think that we are meant to be symphatising with the judges. Of course, it is acknowledged that their actions were wrong but it is always mentioned that the reason for their actions was fear, fear also supposedly being the reason why Norman was being bullied. And I really think this is cutting bullies too much slack. And the main issue I have is that Agatha's actions in response to persecution supposedly caused more fear, facilitating more persecution. It's as if they are saying that the bullied are causing their own problems by not responding properly to being bullied, poor bullies can't help it, they were just scared.
And I do think that we are meant to be symphatising with the judges. Of course, it is acknowledged that their actions were wrong but it is always mentioned that the reason for their actions was fear, fear also supposedly being the reason why Norman was being bullied. And I really think this is cutting bullies too much slack. And the main issue I have is that Agatha's actions in response to persecution supposedly caused more fear, facilitating more persecution. It's as if they are saying that the bullied are causing their own problems by not responding properly to being bullied, poor bullies can't help it, they were just scared.
Perhaps I am reading too much into this. The filmmakers probably didn't intend to
actually excuse bullying and blame the victim.
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