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[jtb]

You know what game doesn't handle sex and sexual violence well?

The Witcher 2. Just faux-George R. R. Martin gratuitous rape and violence everywhere. I remember feeling pretty embarrassed for CDPR when I first played it, and the comical lengths they went to go super edgy and chase that Game of Throne vibe (particularly in comparison to the tone of the first game, which has its own misogyny problems, but in very different form).

Want to know how we're supposed to dislike a character now? RAPE.

How am I supposed to sympathize with a former antagonistic character? RAPE.

Need to create emotional resonance in a non-nonsensical third act that's clearly incomplete because the game is missing a fourth act? In case of emergency, break glass and RAPE.

It's truly awful.

The Witcher 3 was a noted improvement (Bloody Baron is fine, overrated, whatever), but still the series' way of resolving it's own ugly past with sex and misogyny is basically to ignore it. Meh.

 

[Bahorel]

To continue on the LGBT also Telltale's Walking Dead season 2 was kinda subtle about it's two gay characters. It spurred some discussion among the fans and developers confirmed it later.

To me I'm surprised to hear that there was any debate at all. It was made very clear to me that the two characters in question were a romantic couple living together both in the language used and the photograph you find.

It's kind of sad to me though how often in media both people inside and outside of the LGBT spectrum are left questioning whether a character is or isn't because it's so uncommon that they are presented at all.

 

[Betty]

I think I'll have to disagree somewhat on the child soilders. I think having them in the game is a way of touching on the subject, but I think it's execution was bad. When you play the game and the child soilders show up, you are explicitly told that you cannot harm them or it is instant game over and that you should save them. With this, the kids just become another npc to rescue in the game. You are never put into a position where Big Boss and the player themselves has to struggle with the thought that he might have to fight back against child soilders and forcibly do something that is very wrong. The closes the game does this is with the kids locked in the mines and the camera pans to big boss pointing his gun at them, but he instead shoots the lock and frees them. im not saying you should be able to kill children at choice in the game to just feel like the game is touching sensitive ideas, but I think they went to safe with the subject and it just didn't deliver in my eyes.

You can kill children in other missions, it just results in a game over because... I don't think there'd be anyway to make a game where you kill children directly and carry on normally, the backlash would be too big.

The closest I can think of is the little sisters in Bioshock 1 being killed but it mostly happens off camera and you don't see their bodies afterwards.

In an ideal world we'd have been able to play as a child soldier and experience the full brutality of real combat and war but for now I don't think games can get away with that.

 

[jtb]

You can kill children in other missions, it just results in a game over because... I don't think there'd be anyway to make a game where you kill children directly and carry on normally, the backlash would be too big.

The closest I can think of is the little sisters in Bioshock 1 being killed but it mostly happens off camera and you don't see their bodies afterwards.

In an ideal world we'd have been able to play as a child soldier and experience the full brutality of real combat and war but for now I don't think games can get away with that.

You can kill kids in Deus Ex. It's, uh, not one of the game's strong suits lol.

 

[Funyarinpa]

The House In Fata Morgana. The game is probably the most tactful game in the whole industry.

Spoilers, but god damn. So many sensitive issues and tackled so maturely.

GOAT.

Edit:THIFM probably spares something like 20-25 of its 25-30 hours of content to give a really nuanced but heartfelt message (while still tearing your fucking heart out).

 

[Dusk Golem]

Rule of Rose

All of it. It deals with a lot of heavy themes and various topics games are scared to touch, but it does it in a very artistic, tasteful, and impacting way, and a lot of it is done subtlety and symbolically rather than for shock value.

 

[Budi]

To me I'm surprised to hear that there was any debate at all. It was made very clear to me that the two characters in question were a romantic couple living together both in the language used and the photograph you find.

It's kind of sad to me though how often in media both people inside and outside of the LGBT spectrum are left questioning whether a character is or isn't because it's so uncommon that they are presented at all.

Sure, Walter even calls Matthew his partner at some point. But to many this still wasn't a confirmation. As they could be "partners" in many ways. Like partners in maintaining the ski lodge, as they were the original two people there. I was very convinced about them being a couple too, but not everyone. Since it didn't really hammer it down by clearly having romantic relations or dialogue or stereotypical characters. Though simply language barrier and not understanding the word partner in this context could also factor in. This is why I would still call it subtle, though maybe respectful is more accurate. We just had the gay characters at the beach in Persona 5, so people still really can fuck this up by not only being overplayed but offensive as hell too in many different ways.

 

[Dabanton]

Wolfenstein: The New Order

The power of survival and revenge in the audio tapes of Anya's cousin? and her giving her body over sexually to lure Nazis soldiers so she could kill them.

Each tape I found I'd actually listen to them in full.

The whole game actually covers a lot of things subtly and a lot more gracefully than I'd expect from a video game.

 

[beau_beaumont]

LGBTQ representation in Horizon Zero Dawn was done both tastefully and in an extremely natural way.

This was great. Alloy's reaction to being hit on my other women was very respectful. I like that the game didn't explicitly state what her sexuality was.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

Rule of Rose

All of it. It deals with a lot of heavy themes and various topics games are scared to touch, but it does it in a very artistic, tasteful, and impacting way, and a lot of it is done subtlety and symbolically rather than for shock value.

The ironic thing is it got banned in Europe because a bunch of shady politicians pulled crap out of their asses claiming that it was a pedophilic snuff game.

But yeah, in actuality it's really one of the most mature (In addressing themes respectfully sense) and emotionally powerful games ever made.

 

[Budi]

The ironic thing is it got banned in Europe because a bunch of shady politicians pulled crap out of their asses claiming that it was a pedophilic snuff game.

But yeah, in actuality it's really one of the most mature (In addressing themes respectfully sense) and emotionally powerful games ever made.

It only got banned in the UK, 505 Games released it in other parts of Europe.

 

[Gradon]

To me I'm surprised to hear that there was any debate at all. It was made very clear to me that the two characters in question were a romantic couple living together both in the language used and the photograph you find.

This. I thought it was very, very obvious. The same with

Spoiler

Bill in TLOU

. Like I don't understand how obvious games have to make it before people complain that it's shoving it in their faces / unrealistic yet so many people miss the more 'subtle' mentions (that for some reason aren't subtle to me and are very obvious.)

Others will try to dispute it no matter what anyway, I've seen people argue against

Spoiler

Bill and Ellie

being gay and the same happened with

Spoiler

Kung Jin

in Mortal KOMBAT X,

Spoiler

Kanji Tatsumi

in Persona 4 and so on and so on.

Edit: and what a tragic tale that is Rule of Roses lack of release in the UK, it's such a great game too. I was super bummed out by its cancellation.

 

[Atolm]

You know what game doesn't handle sex and sexual violence well?

The Witcher 2. Just faux-George R. R. Martin gratuitous rape and violence everywhere. I remember feeling pretty embarrassed for CDPR when I first played it, and the comical lengths they went to go super edgy and chase that Game of Throne vibe (particularly in comparison to the tone of the first game, which has its own misogyny problems, but in very different form).

Want to know how we're supposed to dislike a character now? RAPE.

How am I supposed to sympathize with a former antagonistic character? RAPE.

Need to create emotional resonance in a non-nonsensical third act that's clearly incomplete because the game is missing a fourth act? In case of emergency, break glass and RAPE.

It's truly awful.

The Witcher 3 was a noted improvement (Bloody Baron is fine, overrated, whatever), but still the series' way of resolving it's own ugly past with sex and misogyny is basically to ignore it. Meh.

Fyi the game was released before the series.

And the books predate Martin's for a few years.

 

[LordKasual]

MGSV handled the reality of child soldiers well, without resorting to hollywood cliches of having them suddenly act like happy Disney characters when rescued or spend ages explaining their situation with dialogue and tragic backstories.

The child soldiers in TPP were pretty ass. Just another concept that I was expecting to get heavy from the initial trailers, but was glossed over and eventually revealed to be pretty much nothing.

In a game about "Big Boss's descent into madness", you come across a group of armed children and get a game-over if you harm any of them.


Then the bait-switch with the scene in the diamond mine with the kids in the cage? Man this game was disappointing.

 

[Opa-Pa]

I want to share an example that may be a bit weird because I'm guessing for a lot of people it probably isn't a sensitive topic, and actually the game it comes from, Persona 2: Innocent Sin, is all about dealing with touchy subjects and traumas the main cast deals with. Still, this is a standout for me because of the rarity of the subject being tackled at all in games and the tactful way the game handles it.

This is Eikichi Mishina

He goes to a different school but is friends with the protagonist. He's extremely self-centered, narcisistic, never seems to take anything seriously and seems to believe all girls are behind him. He's obviously the main source of comic relief in the game because of all this.

Eikichi is an odd one because while the game likes its humor, most characters are complex and have different layers to their personalities... But Eikichi remains pretty ridiculous for the most part. Sure he's very likeable and dependable, but it's rare to see him being 100% genuine about his feelings or thoughts.

Anyway, this is Miyabi

She's a girl from the protagonist's school. She is secretly in love with Eikichi (secretly as in everyone knows except him), but for some reason doesn't want him to know her name and seems to try to avoid him in general... Suspicious because Eikichi is looking for a girl named Miyabi from the same school as well. They run into each other a couple of times through the story, and at one point he even saves her from danger, but doesn't seem too interested in her in general despite the villains using her as bait for him at one point, for some reason.

Now, Eikichi is pretty weird in general, but everything starts to make more sense once some flashbacks occur and we see what the main cast looked like as kids, and Eikichi is by far the most surprising

Young Eikichi is shy, he stutters, and in general has a sort of deffensive attitude that seems to imply he's bullied. But above all, what sticks out the most is that young Eikichi is fat. And one thing suddenly becomes obvious, Eikichi seems to have built an entire persona around his childhood traumas and insecurities (which makes sense, because according to Freud this is how much of our personalities work). He was once a fat, shy and insecure kid and now he's fit, outgoing and won't shut up about how attractive and great he is.

Now this alone isn't that impressive, but as the story unfolds, we find out that Eikichi acts like this to hide his insecurities and fears, but also to get people to like him, which again makes a lot of sense, but eventually he finds out MIyabi's name, and reveals that he was his childhood crush and that she rejected him back when the day because he was fat, and she was very explicit about it. Miyabi at one point fell in love with Eikichi but found herself in an ironic situation because now the roles were inverted, Eikichi is now a "normal" guy who seems comfortable with his appeareance while she's fat, so she fears that he'll mock her and hate her if he ever find out she's the same Miyabi from his childhood...

The context for this reveal is that Eikichi is facing his shadow, who starts revealing Eikichi's hidden insecurities and brings up what happened between the two back then. And I think any other game could use this setup to show Miyabi what karma is and teach her a lesson

But Eikichi is nothing like that, and he reacts in a completely unexpected way. He desperatedly wanted to see Miyabi again now that he's changed, but he doesn't care that Miyabi looks different now, he's even baffled that she thought he would care, but he could never because he knows what it is to be like that. He accepts her for who she is, Miyabi apologizes and everything ends in a happy note... more or less.

But yeah, I believe this is the one and only example of "fat acceptance" that I've seen in games. The subject is rarely touched in media in general, so it really surprised me back when I played this, and I think it was very respectfully and makes Eikichi one lovable goof. He's my favorite character in all of Persona.

This. I thought it was very, very obvious. The same with

Spoiler

Bill in TLOU

. Like I don't understand how obvious games have to make it before people complain that it's shoving it in their faces / unrealistic yet so many people miss the more 'subtle' mentions (that for some reason aren't subtle to me and are very obvious.)

Others will try to dispute it no matter what anyway, I've seen people argue against

Spoiler

Bill and Ellie

being gay and the same happened with

Spoiler

Kung Jin

in Mortal KOMBAT X,

Spoiler

Kanji Tatsumi

in Persona 4 and so on and so on.

Edit: and what a tragic tale that is Rule of Roses lack of release in the UK, it's such a great game too. I was super bummed out by its cancellation.

This is a clear problem with the "be extremely subtle because otherwise it feels forced" approach. People who aren't comfortable with LGBT folks and topics in their games simply won't acknowledge these as real portrayals and will claim that it's ambiguous... And I'm pretty sure it's those same people who say that's how these things should be handled in games in the first place, so I say don't listen to them and if a gay character has to be seen making out with his partner on screen the so be it.

 

[panama chief]

*removes TLoU from backlog* thanks OP

On topic: most of my games are run, jump, shoot, solve puzzle. So I haven't experienced the subtleness yet.

 

[fernoca]

Netherrealm handled that Harley scene well and in Mortal Kombat X revealing Kung Jin is gay .

 

[jtb]

Fyi the game was released before the series.

And the books predate Martin's for a few years.

And? That has nothing to do with my point, and it's not like TW2 (which varies wildly in tone and subject from TW1 and TW3) is really attempting to capture the series' Eastern European fairy tale/monster slayer hybrid that's at the heart of Geralt's character and so much of the universe. (The Last Wish, anyways) It's all gritty, bloody politics.

If you're arguing that being faithful to Sapkowski requires gratuitous and endless rape for shock value.... um, that's fine. But it doesn't excuse CDPR in the least.

 

[Budi]

And? That has nothing to do with my point, and it's not like TW2 (which varies wildly in tone and subject from TW1 and TW3) is really attempting to capture the series' Eastern European fairy tale/monster slayer hybrid that's at the heart of Geralt's character and so much of the universe. (The Last Wish, anyways) It's all gritty, bloody politics.

If you're arguing that being faithful to Sapkowski requires gratuitous and endless rape for shock value.... um, that's fine. But it doesn't excuse CDPR in the least.

I think the point is that GRRM and Game of Thrones the tv-series has nothing to do with your point about Witcher either. Your critique about the use of rape is valid, but it's in no way related to those two things you mentioned.

 

[Valonquar]

The waterfall section of Contra on the NES subtly let me know all my friends were dickheads.

 

[jtb]

I think the point is that GRRM and Game of Thrones the tv-series has nothing to do with your point about Witcher either. Your critique about the use of rape is valid, but it's in no way related to those two things you mentioned.

Fair. I mainly meant to use it as a reference point, since I figure most people haven't read the books (I don't even know if they've all been translated yet), whereas GRRM and Game of Thrones are ubiquitous.

And, I mean, the GRRM novels were hugely successful even before the HBO series, the HBO series debuted right when TW2 was released. Don't think it's a stretch at all to say that they tried to make TW2 (which, let's not forget, completely reinvented the series to be far more action-oriented and way less ugly) far more mainstream than the first game by making it less fairy-tale/mystery-monster and more 'politics and war'.

The first game was a cult success that barely kept the company afloat, and had a bizarre combat system that probably put off a ton of people. CDPR made an all out push to make The Witcher 2 as accessible as possible - they succeeded! But there are also some unfortunate blind spots that came with that.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

The waterfall section of Contra on the NES subtly let me know all my friends were dickheads.

Co-Op Contra in general will ruin your friendships though.

 

[HStallion]

.

 

[Budi]

Fair. I mainly meant to use it as a reference point, since I figure most people haven't read the books (I don't even know if they've all been translated yet), whereas GRRM and Game of Thrones are ubiquitous.

And, I mean, the GRRM novels were hugely successful even before the HBO series, the HBO series debuted right when TW2 was released. Don't think it's a stretch at all to say that they tried to make TW2 (which, let's not forget, completely reinvented the series to be far more action-oriented and way less ugly) far more mainstream than the first game by making it less fairy-tale/mystery-monster and more 'politics and war'.

The first game was a cult success that barely kept the company afloat, and had a bizarre combat system that probably put off a ton of people. CDPR made an all out push to make The Witcher 2 as accessible as possible - they succeeded! But there are also some unfortunate blind spots that came with that.

Sure all of the games are very different in many ways, constantly evolving. And absolutely Song of Ice and Fire was popular even without the show, I'd say that's why it was turned into TV-series. It's likely that the writers have read the books, just like they have read other fantasy novels I'd imagine. The first game had rape too though, just like the books. Not an excuse to how it's handled, just that it doesn't take GRRM/GOT influence and the blame is entirely on CDPR alone, not some gritty fantasy trend. But I'd agree it was even more crass and excessive in the second game. Or was it, woman rewarding you with sex for stopping a rape is pretty damn crass, you even get the collectible pin up card too! I'm so glad they've progressed, I'd hate to be ashamed for loving a game series.

But I really can't see how adding intricated politics into a game gives it more mainstream appeal. As some have been surprised in this thread how people can't seem to get pretty clear clues about characters sexuality, how are they going to follow the politics of Witcher 2 =P
This bit doesn't really fit into the thread though. So I'm not expecting an answer to this.

 

[Atolm]

And? That has nothing to do with my point, and it's not like TW2 (which varies wildly in tone and subject from TW1 and TW3) is really attempting to capture the series' Eastern European fairy tale/monster slayer hybrid that's at the heart of Geralt's character and so much of the universe. (The Last Wish, anyways) It's all gritty, bloody politics.

If you're arguing that being faithful to Sapkowski requires gratuitous and endless rape for shock value.... um, that's fine. But it doesn't excuse CDPR in the least.

Well, the whole book series is about a father trying to incest-rape his own daughter because plot shenanigans, it's not something exclusive to the games in the slightest.

 

[Orochinagis]

David was gonna force himself on her. Before this point games rarely if ever touched upon this subject matter with any sort of subtlety, months later Ellie as a character is still traumatized by those events because they don't just go away. They stick with you. Even in a world full of bandits and zombies. Compare this to the portrayal of the same subject matter when it comes to Quiet from MGSV. You see she's so badass and powerful that it has no effect on her character whatsoever. Instead she stabs the dicks of everyone.

Eh, I feel like the Devs wanted to add some traumatic experience on her so Joel can soften on her yet dont want to do it graphically because Ellie is a child, to the entire cutscene was weird.

His actions were implied yes but really subtle then escalated pretty quickly since the most the guy did was go on top on her cursing her at the point of killing her.

 

[HStallion]

Eh, I feel like the Devs wanted to add some traumatic experience on her so Joel can soften on her yet dont want to do it graphically because Ellie is a child, to the entire cutscene was weird.

His actions were implied yes but really subtle then escalated pretty quickly since the most the guy did was go on top on her cursing her at the point of killing her.

He basically kidnaps her to his cannibal compound where its not only implied he's going to rape her, but that they're going to eat her and that was after the fact those guys were responsible for Joel's fucked up condition in the first place.

 

[PSqueak]

It's really subtle and you can miss it if you don't scrutinize everything in Undertale, but after you befriend Undyne you can get commentary on every zone in the game by calling her and Papyrus.

If you call her on the main waterfall area she'll tell you about the time she met Alphys, which was when she found her contemplating the void of the waterfall, Undyne gets her to not inch closer to the edge by casually chatting her up and making Alphys tell her about herself and her interests. Undyne tells you about how everyday she'd go back to the same space just to hear Alphys talk for hours, developing genuine interest in her and eventually falling in love and basically making Alphys stops staring at the void.

Now at that moment it's not explicitly spelled that Alphys was there to kill herself, but as you prod around other things in the game you learn that another character previously had killed herself there and Alphys was suicidal (depending your actions in the game, she can actually kill herself) and Undyne basically saved her life.

 

[IamDodongo]

Really glad I got to play TLoU before seeing this thread.

I suppose it has been out for a while though..

 

[Orochinagis]

He basically kidnaps her to his cannibal compound where its not only implied he's going to rape her, but that they're going to eat her and that was after the fact those guys were responsible for Joel's fucked up condition in the first place.

Yep, ate her was more like the idea I got, then Ellie got traumatized by the rape idea

 

[DemWalls]

You know what game doesn't handle sex and sexual violence well?

The Witcher 2. Just faux-George R. R. Martin gratuitous rape and violence everywhere. I remember feeling pretty embarrassed for CDPR when I first played it, and the comical lengths they went to go super edgy and chase that Game of Throne vibe (particularly in comparison to the tone of the first game, which has its own misogyny problems, but in very different form).

Want to know how we're supposed to dislike a character now? RAPE.

How am I supposed to sympathize with a former antagonistic character? RAPE.

Need to create emotional resonance in a non-nonsensical third act that's clearly incomplete because the game is missing a fourth act? In case of emergency, break glass and RAPE.

It's truly awful.

The Witcher 3 was a noted improvement (Bloody Baron is fine, overrated, whatever), but still the series' way of resolving it's own ugly past with sex and misogyny is basically to ignore it. Meh.

This makes me realize I remember little about the game, despite playing it for three times. Last time was at the beginning of 2013 though, so I guess it's understandable.

Care to remind me what examples are you referring to? I honestly remember just one - Loredo, the chief of Flotsam, impregnating the female elf.

 

[Vimes]

Whatever this Gone Home stuff you all are on about flew right the hell over my head. I'll have to keep my eyes open if I ever replay it.

 

[Shredderi]

Co-Op Contra in general will ruin your friendships though.

You just have to have a friend who isn't shit at it. Me and my friend play Contra games a LOT and we do really good.

 

[Budi]

This makes me realize I remember little about the game, despite playing it for three times. Last time was at the beginning of 2013 though, so I guess it's understandable.

Care to remind me what examples are you referring to? I honestly remember just one - Loredo, the chief of Flotsam, impregnating the female elf.

It depends on the path you take, if you choose Roche's path

Spoiler

Ves will be raped by Henselt.

On Iorveth's path you also have attempted rape at the last act.

 

[ebullientprism]

LOL MGS series has always had all the subtlety of a sledgehammer when it comes to sensitive subjects. Its hilarious that people think MGSV did it well when there is a fucking bossfight against a child soldier.

 

[whalleywhat]

In a long series of men sacrificing themselves so that Lara can be a survivor, the complete nerd who all the disgusting, sorry, repugnant white males in the audience are supposed to relate to cause he's shy and is wearing one of their dork shirts, once again proves Lara's mettle and independence in this grim world by laying down his life so she can go party with her Japanese empress pal. Of course, his shyness and reticence around Lara as we all know is only a thin veil over the insatiable lusty beast which lurks within him, but he at least sets a positive example by turning his cheek to Lara when she deems him worthy of a platonic peck for doing his duty as a white male. Although I was horrified that Lara would move in his general direction with her lips protruding, I was at least satiated that he would be dead soon and had not received any 'sexual' intimacy from our irreproachable goddess hero. Sorry no gifs.

 

[RubberLuffy]

Emil from NieR being gay. It's subtle enough in the game (hints of a crush on brotherNier, but more of a father figure deal in papaNier version), only really confirmed by Yoko Taro whose response was pretty much "gay people exist, so of course there would be one in the game". He's also the face of the franchise due to Taro's wearing the Emil mask during public events.

He's a great character who is constantly shit upon by the world but manages to work hard to overcome those hardships.

Also he is the best.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

I wrote a post before about that sequence in The Last of Us. If that was a sequence you really liked, you might like my analysis of it: http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=157847794&postcount=116

The entire Ellie sequence of the game works so well because the fear doesn't come from clickers or guns or toxic spores. It comes David and, Ellie's personal greatest fear, being left alone.

 

[Slater]

MGS

MGS....subtle?

MGS?


........REALLY??

lol

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Father absence in Final Fantasy VI with

Spoiler

Shadow and Relm

 

[Crossing Eden]

LOL MGS series has always had all the subtlety of a sledgehammer when it comes to sensitive subjects. Its hilarious that people think MGSV did it well when there is a fucking bossfight against a child soldier.

And literally the only white child soldier.

 

[ebullientprism]

And literally the only white child soldier.

LOL I didnt even notice that. Of course its a white kid that is the leader of black kids in fucking Africa. XD

 

[Lionel Richie]

To reply to Lionel Ritchie without quoting because I want to avoid Nier spoilers, I would say the medium is evolving because while there were well written games back in the day like SH2 or Planescape they felt like exceptions to the rule. Now more and more of the medium is stepping up the quality to the point where even some AAA games are even surprising people.

Oh I agree with you, narrative is a more important part of the average game nowadays and I like that. Don't love it though because I think a lot of the narrative in the games could play out exactly the same if they were books or movies. That's not what happens with stuff like SH2, MGS2, Automata, Soulsborne, BOTW, Talos Principle or Puppeteer. Those are games that would only work as a videogame for more than one reason. Last of Us, Ubisoft games or even my beloved Yakuza series would mostly work out just the same if they weren't interactive works. That's not a flaw, but I don't think the medium is evolving 100% because games that mix gameplay and narrative seamlessly are sadly becoming more and more of an exception. And I don't see the big appeal of the Ellie scene for instance, like it's terribly well done and it's a nice moment and shit, but the writer would have to be completely dense to mess it up. We're still dealing with some predictability when it comes to games narratives which mostly make them feel pretty simple or safe, and as such the high points in the industry (SH2 and MGS2) are still the same for like 15 years now IMO.

Which is why I love Automata so much. The narrative doesn't exist without the gameplay and vice versa. It subverts your expectations at every turn and mixes subtle messages with more obvious ones in a way that creates a rhythm that makes you feel smart. It's absolutely positively 100% pretty fucking awesome.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Oh I agree with you, narrative is a more important part of the average game nowadays and I like that. Don't love it though because I think a lot of the narrative in the games could play out exactly the same if they were books or movies. That's not what happens with stuff like SH2, MGS2, Automata, Soulsborne, BOTW, Talos Principle or Puppeteer. Those are games that would only work as a videogame for more than one reason. Last of Us, Ubisoft games or even my beloved Yakuza series would mostly work out just the same if they weren't interactive works. That's not a flaw, but I don't think the medium is evolving 100% because games that mix gameplay and narrative seamlessly are sadly becoming more and more of an exception. And I don't see the big appeal of the Ellie scene for instance, like it's terribly well done and it's a nice moment and shit, but the writer would have to be completely dense to mess it up. We're still dealing with some predictability when it comes to games narratives which mostly make them feel pretty simple or safe, and as such the high points in the industry (SH2 and MGS2) are still the same for like 15 years now IMO.

Which is why I love Automata so much. The narrative doesn't exist without the gameplay and vice versa. It subverts your expectations at every turn and mixes subtle messages with more obvious ones in a way that creates a rhythm that makes you feel smart. It's absolutely positively 100% pretty fucking awesome.

All of those narratives can absolutely be told through other mediums. The themes they touch on aren't very unique to gaming at all and the evidence is the things they're inspired by in the first place. And considering game writing, it absolutely is easy to mess the subject matter up. Devs do it all the time actually.

 

[Alienfan]

Disagree with the "so subtle you can miss it" = good LGBTQ representation. That's pretty much all LGBTQ representation in main stream media. It isn't more "natural" to have gay characters never talk about their partners or interact with them in any meaningful way, sexuality for straight characters is in your face a lot, in the real world and in video games, gay characters should be allowed to be too. It why I roll my eyes when people say "Bioware is pandering! They just want the attention", well yes they're pandering, like any game that has a straight white male lead is pandering. And considering they are one of the few AAA publishers who've had good LGBTQ characters, they deserve all the praise and attention. A character whose sexuality is so ambiguous people need to ask the developers isn't necessarily bad representation, the problem comes from this being almost every instance of gay representation in entertainment. It becomes pretty clear as to what they're doing, they don't want to rock the bigot boat. Greg from Night in the Woods is a good example of the kind of representation people want.

 

[Lionel Richie]

All of those narratives can absolutely be told through other mediums. The themes they touch on aren't very unique to gaming at all and the evidence is the things they're inspired by in the first place. And considering game writing, it absolutely is easy to mess the subject matter up. Devs do it all the time actually.

They cannot be told through other medium without losing up a lot of the essential parts of the experience. A MGS 2 movie loses ridiculously more in the adaption than a Last of Us movie and the same is true about the other games. An Automata movie doesn't even start because of the different endings providing different experiences depending on what level of involvement you want to have. That possibility is unique to videogames. Last of Us doesn't take advantage of anything unique to videogames as a medium.

And how it's easy to mess up child molestation in a work of fiction? Devs do it all the time? Give me 2 examples.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I wouldn't use "subtle" here as a synonym for "well done." That just reinforces the false notion that this kind of stuff needs to be easily ignorable to be good.

Probably "handled deftly" would be better.

 

[IcyStorm]

Most my friend's IRL missed the fact that Bill was gay. I was simultaneously so happy that ND included that in the story and made it really subtle, but totally devastated that people I knew weren't paying attention.

Bill was gay? Damn would have been more impactful had I known. I just saw him as a creepy loon. I guess that's what makes it so good is that you shouldn't be able to tell. People are just people and you normally wouldn't know someone sexual orientation unless they introduced you to their significant other in the real world. There's obviously outliers, if so though well done ND.

came in to say Bill in TLOU.

I don't think I picked up on it first playthrough, but definitely on subsequent ones

This. I thought it was very, very obvious. The same with

Spoiler

Bill in TLOU

. Like I don't understand how obvious games have to make it before people complain that it's shoving it in their faces / unrealistic yet so many people miss the more 'subtle' mentions (that for some reason aren't subtle to me and are very obvious.)

Wait, what did people think when he says, "He was my partner. *pause* He's the only idiot who would wear a shirt like that." ???

 

[Coriolanus]

Watch Dogs 2's Miranda Comay

Ubi put a black transgender woman in their game and simply made it work. Wasn't exploitative or played for laughs.

 

[Tye The Czar]

I was gonna mention the J scene in Wolfenstein TNO but it was mentioned already.

I wouldn't exactly call it "subtle" since he outright calls you a nazi, but it was done very tastefully.

I'm really, REALLY banking on Machinegames going further on this analogy in The New Colossus. I want to see the game explicitly point out the U.S.' genocide against the Native Americans and how it inspired Hitler to create death camps Holocaust.

I'd also like to see The New Colossus have parallels to the neo-nazi/alt-right movement. Showing the indoctrination techniques that they used on normal people to turn them into heartless killers would just be icing on the cake.

Pull no punches.