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Bruce Jenner involved in Car Crash

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Do not confuse me saying that a death resulting from texting and driving does not require jail time with me saying that they should be absolved of consequences. There is a world of difference between someone making poor judgment decisions in a world that is only just now beginning to discourage the activity in question, and someone doing something to actively harm another person.

Revocation of a driver's license, community service, etc.? Absolutely. Putting them in prison? A monstrous miscarriage of justice and a significant and unnecessary burden on society. Prison needs to be restricted to people who have shown they are not prepared to be a member of society and need rehabilitation, not for people getting unlucky while doing what is still a pervasive, if frowned upon, social behavior.

Someone so selfish that they would text and drive is not prepared to be a member of society. They absolutely deserve prison.

People that do these things are terrible people and should not be allowed to get away with a slap on the wrist. By texting and driving, you are saying you don't care about other people's lives. People die from this. It's not a joke.
 
Are you unaware of vehicle manslaughter laws that have been around for decades and decades in most states? If you hit and kill someone due to negligence you tend to go to jail.

Of course, but it depends on the circumstances. I'm also calling into question if these sentences are appropriate.

Someone so selfish that they would text and drive is not prepared to be a member of society. They absolutely deserve prison.

Please. How long did it take for drunk driving to become socially unacceptable? How many people still make excuses for it? We are just entering the era of mass texting, give society time to react before you call for expulsion from society. Now is the time for people to learn what is right and what is wrong, not prison sentences that benefit no one.

Apparently according to Dave unless it was intentional he shouldn't go to jail. Which is not how the law ever worked.

Or it could be how the law works in many cases.

Again. I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences, only that prison is not beneficial in this case and should not be a catch all.
 
According to this source, Jenner did not claim he was running away from paparrazi:
Asked if paparazzi were involved in the crash, the sergeant said Jenner “was aware that paparazzi were following him, which is not uncommon for him.”

The Olympic gold medalist “said he wasn’t driving erratically to avoid them, because really on PCH there’s nowhere to go,” Brooks added. “He just knew that they were there and they seem to always be there, but they don’t seem to be a factor in this collision.”

Is there any evidence that he was texting while driving? We have a picture at the moment of impact, but I don't know if that really proves anything. I'm not saying the victim's death isn't his fault, I'm just saying we should at least consider what is and isn't confirmed information.
 
According to this source, Jenner did not claim he was running away from paparrazi:


Is there any evidence that he was texting while driving? We have a picture at the moment of impact, but I don't know if that really proves anything. I'm not saying the victim's death isn't his fault, I'm just saying we should at least consider what is and isn't confirmed information.

Honestly it does not even look like hes looking at the road at all. He kind of looking down a smidge.
 
Or it could be how the law works in many cases.

Again. I'm not saying there shouldn't be consequences, only that prison is not beneficial in this case and should not be a catch all.

Somebody is dead. If his negligence caused it, he goes to jail. What's more beneficial than that?
 
Have you guys seen these pictures? Pic 2 just before the impact and pic 3 right on impact it looks like hes staring at his phone..or texting..or something.

0207-sub-wm-bruce-jenner-moi-splash-7.jpg

I've been thinking about these pictures - there's something odd about how his left hand seems to be off the wheel, even after impacting the white car. Having slammed my breaks a few times over the years, my instinct is to grip the wheel with both hands, despite the fact I usually drive one handed (a result of years of driving stick). The fact his hand is positioned the way it is, makes me think he's either holding something, or he had zero clue the car in front had slowed down, and/or stopped - both suggest to me he might have been texting while driving.
 
I've been thinking about these pictures - there's something odd about how his left hand seems to be off the wheel, even after impacting the white car. Having slammed my breaks a few times over the years, my instinct is to grip the wheel with both hands, despite the fact I usually drive one handed (a result of years of driving stick). The fact his hand is positioned the way it is, makes me think he's either holding something, or he had zero clue the car in front had slowed down, and/or stopped - both suggest to me he might have been texting while driving.

No lie. He look like he texting. Get the phone check the text messages.
 
Somebody is dead. If his negligence caused it, he goes to jail. What's more beneficial than that?

Who benefits from that outcome?

There are three questions you have to ask yourself, and of our society. What is the purpose of the justice system? What is the purpose of the prison system? Does jailing someone for texting and driving further these purposes?
 
Who benefits from that outcome?

There are three questions you have to ask yourself, and of our society. What is the purpose of the justice system? What is the purpose of the prison system? Does jailing someone for texting and driving further these purposes?

Dude if they killed someone they need to go to jail for awhile. What is wrong with you?
 
I know a guy involved in a heartbreaking crash that left someone dead. He was convicted of vehicular manslaughter with a suspended sentence and a fat community service component. Seemed appropriate for that situation. I think he did a lot of the service by going around to driver's ed classes talking about defensive driving.
 
I've been thinking about these pictures - there's something odd about how his left hand seems to be off the wheel, even after impacting the white car. Having slammed my breaks a few times over the years, my instinct is to grip the wheel with both hands, despite the fact I usually drive one handed (a result of years of driving stick). The fact his hand is positioned the way it is, makes me think he's either holding something, or he had zero clue the car in front had slowed down, and/or stopped - both suggest to me he might have been texting while driving.

Came here to post this, last shot shows like he's holding a damn phone looking towards his face. Like he felt the impact and leaned back his head while looking ahead after switching his attention off the phone.

Edit - Can't discard the smoking.
 
Who benefits from that outcome?

There are three questions you have to ask yourself, and of our society. What is the purpose of the justice system? What is the purpose of the prison system? Does jailing someone for texting and driving further these purposes?

It may function as a deterrent. Especially a case of this visibility.
 
Dude if they killed someone they need to go to jail for awhile. What is wrong with you?

What's wrong with me is that I hate to see society made worse for no reason when the best answer is right in front of our eyes. Namely two posts after you:
I know a guy involved in a heartbreaking crash that left someone dead. He was convicted of vehicular manslaughter with a suspended sentence and a fat community service component. Seemed appropriate for that situation. I think he did a lot of the service by going around to driver's ed classes talking about defensive driving.

The beneficiaries from this solution are many. The negligent driver learns their lesson, he interacts with other people to help steer them away from similar dangerous behavior, and society doesn't foot the bill for keeping him in prison.

Edit:
It may function as a deterrent. Especially a case of this visibility.

Which would be a bigger deterrent, a celebrity going to jail for a few years or becoming the face of texting while driving PSAs and classes around the country? In a larger sense, the efficacy of prison sentences as a deterrent is up for debate.
 
He wasn't texting, he was smoking. All the conspiracy theorists that said he was texting (myself included) were wrong. Via TMZ
http://www.tmz.com/2015/02/08/bruce-jenner-smoking-photo-texting-fatal-crash-search-warrant/

0208-bruce-jenner-car-crash-cigarette-splash-inf-4.jpg

And this is why I said we should consider what is and isn't confirmed. You can zoom in on the original picture as much as you want and there's nothing conclusive about it. So all that discussion and all the accusations about texting and driving were likely to be pointless.
 
Who benefits from that outcome?

There are three questions you have to ask yourself, and of our society. What is the purpose of the justice system? What is the purpose of the prison system? Does jailing someone for texting and driving further these purposes?

It lets people know that there are real consequences, because the fact that they might sadly kill someone is not even enough.
If it happens to someone famous (embarrassing as it is to say that), even better.
 
Which would be a bigger deterrent, a celebrity going to jail for a few years or becoming the face of texting while driving PSAs and classes around the country? In a larger sense, the efficacy of prison sentences as a deterrent is up for debate.

I'd say the former. A celebrity doing jail time is big news and pulse-of-the-moment stuff. PSAs and lectures? I suspect that far fewer people care about that.
 
Who benefits from that outcome?

There are three questions you have to ask yourself, and of our society. What is the purpose of the justice system? What is the purpose of the prison system? Does jailing someone for texting and driving further these purposes?

OK, I'll bite.

Justice system = decide the punishment of those who break laws
Prison system = rehabilitate lawbreakers (in theory, at least) and separate them from society

Texting and driving is, by an large, illegal. Manslaughter is also. If it is decided that he is to serve prison time for this incident, so be it. Society will benefit on account of the lack of a grossly negligent person. He will benefit from some contemplation about how his actions affect others.

Still not seeing how this isn't beneficial.
 
And this is why I said we should consider what is and isn't confirmed. You can zoom in on the original picture as much as you want and there's nothing conclusive about it. So all that discussion and all the accusations about texting and driving were likely to be pointless.

Pointless no, it gives a good barometer on where people stand.
 
Dave, I respect you for posting your thoughts on this in a coherent manner, you are asking some difficult questions.

I do have a few issues though: One deals with the whole texting/driving thing. I get that this is a new development and we need to really issue a strong educational program for the public. It's pretty strong where I live in Houston already. But here is the thing, it doesn't matter. Do we also need a educational program about the dangers of reading a book, paper, magazine while driving? Cause I see it regularly on I-45 during my work commute. There are a plethora of things that you do NOT do while driving. If you are doing something while driving that is taking your awareness away from the task at hand then you are breaking the law. If because of that you get in a accident and kill someone you need to go to jail, which brings me to the second issue concerning prison.

Prison is about more than a benefit to society, it is also about punishment. Now this isn't something that some people like but it has been an inherent part of the system for eons. Rehabilitation is part of the justice system, but so is retribution.
 
It lets people know that there are real consequences, because the fact that they might sadly kill someone is not even enough.
If it happens to someone famous (embarrassing as it is to say that), even better.

Right now people still avoid texting and driving for fear of getting caught. That's wrong. We want people to avoid texting and driving because it's dangerous and they know better. You do that by changing their perception of what's acceptable. Having a known celebrity relate their story and the story of the person they killed would do so much more than them going to jail.
 
The beneficiaries from this solution are many. The negligent driver learns their lesson, he interacts with other people to help steer them away from similar dangerous behavior, and society doesn't foot the bill for keeping him in prison.

Yeah. I'm pretty sure they took his license for a while too. That part was sort of unnecessary since dude was sincerely traumatized by the whole experience and wasn't about to get back behind the wheel any time soon anyway.

These cases definitely come down to specifics. Is Bruce legit shook, is he sincerely remorseful? Does he have a record of reckless driving? How exactly did this happen? It's complicated. "We'll just throw him in jail" isn't a very helpful out-of-hand solution.

Absolutely heartbreaking case. What a nightmare, cars pin balling around out of control. I'm always surprised in cases like this when nobody dies of a heart attack. Can you even imagine what the hummer driver was feeling when that car gets shoved into lane directly ahead? Yikes.
 
Right now people still avoid texting and driving for fear of getting caught. That's wrong. We want people to avoid texting and driving because it's dangerous and they know better. You do that by changing their perception of what's acceptable. Having a known celebrity relate their story and the story of the person they killed would do so much more than them going to jail.

Why not both?
 
The dangers of texting while driving are still in the introduction phases and the activity is still legal some places. Furthermore, driver's education in America is terrible, so people, who are already poor at evaluating risk, are going into these decisions from a position of ignorance.

These are not people who have killed through a conscious decision towards violence, they are people with lapses in good judgment who might otherwise be great contributors to society. What point is there in putting them in prison? Who gains from it?

There are other and more reasonable consequences for this than putting negligent drivers behind bars.

PS - I don't see why there are different consequences for texting while driving based on the outcome of the action. There's no difference between someone who texts and runs a stop light on a clear street and someone who texts and t-bones a car while running a stop light. None. They did the same exact thing but the results were different. Why does one go to jail and the other does not?

No. Absolutely not.

The dangers of texting while driving has been a national message for almost a decade now (there have been countless billboards, commercials and PSAs, and it is in fact illegal in the state of California).

Nobody can reasonably claim ignorance on the issue. Bruce knew better, and if his negligence is ultimately determined to be what caused the death of that poor woman, then Bruce deserves to be charged.
 
Right now people still avoid texting and driving for fear of getting caught. That's wrong. We want people to avoid texting and driving because it's dangerous and they know better. You do that by changing their perception of what's acceptable. Having a known celebrity relate their story and the story of the person they killed would do so much more than them going to jail.

But how do you get people to listen to that? How do you get someone to listen to Bruce Jenner talk about how he killed someone and it was a terrible, avoidable thing?
 
There's literally a Defense Force for anything and everything here on GAF, I've already come to terms with this after a few topics I've read on certain debates.

I already said something about this, but since you want to bring it up again. Where in this thread are people defending the paparazzi?

There is literally a Defense Force for anything and everything on GAF. Oh really? Literally anything and everything, neat didn't know that.

Arrogant Bastard said:
Holy shit, I'm going to be edgy and claim people are defending the Paparazzi, guys look at me.

No that isn't what is happening here. What is happening here is people are saying regardless of the paparazzi you are still responsible for speeding and reckless driving.
 
I've been thinking about these pictures - there's something odd about how his left hand seems to be off the wheel, even after impacting the white car. Having slammed my breaks a few times over the years, my instinct is to grip the wheel with both hands, despite the fact I usually drive one handed (a result of years of driving stick). The fact his hand is positioned the way it is, makes me think he's either holding something, or he had zero clue the car in front had slowed down, and/or stopped - both suggest to me he might have been texting while driving.
He generally doesn't look like someone who knows he's about to have a crash, but apparently did he slam the brakes and tried to steer away. I think those pictures mislead a little since it's hard to tell how fast it is happening.
 
Isn't his life being filmed for the reality show of his transition? Don't they usually have cameras in their vehicles? I'm sure a police warrant can get that footage to figure out exactly what happened.
 
Dave, I respect you for posting your thoughts on this in a coherent manner, you are asking some difficult questions.

I do have a few issues though: One deals with the whole texting/driving thing. I get that this is a new development and we need to really issue a strong educational program for the public. It's pretty strong where I live in Houston already. But here is the thing, it doesn't matter. Do we also need a educational program about the dangers of reading a book, paper, magazine while driving? Cause I see it regularly on I-45 during my work commute. There are a plethora of things that you do NOT do while driving. If you are doing something while driving that is taking your awareness away from the task at hand then you are breaking the law. If because of that you get in a accident and kill someone you need to go to jail, which brings me to the second issue concerning prison.

Prison is about more than a benefit to society, it is also about punishment. Now this isn't something that some people like but it has been an inherent part of the system for eons. Rehabilitation is part of the justice system, but so is retribution.

The issue with retribution in the justice system is that it does a disservice to rehabilitation and nobody benefits from it.

To your point about people doing other dangerous things while driving, yes we do need educational programs about it. The state of driver's education in America is abysmal, yet we still hold people to a very high standard for responsible driving. Where is the sense in that?

I'm a construction manager so I turn to construction safety a lot for analogies. Operators have to be certified and licensed to operate different types of heavy machinery, and their employers are responsible for ensuring that they're properly licensed for what they're doing. If an operator isn't certified for what they're doing and they do something unsafe resulting in a fatality, who do you think will be held responsible? The operator? The employer? Really it's both, but the bulk of the responsibility lies on the employer for not ensuring a safe working environment and making sure their employees were properly trained.

Now consider licensing for driving in America through that lens and wonder if people are really deserving of the standards we hold them to for liability.

No. Absolutely not.

The dangers of texting while driving has been a national message for almost a decade now (there have been countless billboards, commercials and PSAs, and it is in fact illegal in the state of California).

Nobody can reasonably claim ignorance on the issue. Bruce knew better, and if his negligence is ultimately determined to be what caused the death of that poor woman, then Bruce deserves to be charged.

It's still legal in some states, and in most of the laws (that I'm familiar with), police officers are still allowed to do it--the justification being that they are better trained. What message does that send to people when officers can do it and they can't? That it's wrong? Or just that "if you're good enough it's safe, just don't get caught".

But how do you get people to listen to that? How do you get someone to listen to Bruce Jenner talk about how he killed someone and it was a terrible, avoidable thing?

PSAs. They've been more and more aggressive in doing it but a celebrity face, someone people are familiar with, relating their experiences would be a big benefit.
 
The issue with retribution in the justice system is that it does a disservice to rehabilitation and nobody benefits from it.

To your point about people doing other dangerous things while driving, yes we do need educational programs about it. The state of driver's education in America is abysmal, yet we still hold people to a very high standard for responsible driving. Where is the sense in that?

I'm a construction manager so I turn to construction safety a lot for analogies. Operators have to be certified and licensed to operate different types of heavy machinery, and their employers are responsible for ensuring that they're properly licensed for what they're doing. If an operator isn't certified for what they're doing and they do something unsafe resulting in a fatality, who do you think will be held responsible? The operator? The employer? Really it's both, but the bulk of the responsibility lies on the employer for not ensuring a safe working environment and making sure their employees were properly trained.

Now consider licensing for driving in America through that lens and wonder if people are really deserving of the standards we hold them to for liability.

The only way this analogy makes any sense is if you can prove exactly how driver's education in American failed Bruce in a way that an be directly linked to being the cause of this accident.

Did he not know how to break? Likely not.
Was he not aware that texting while driving was a hazzard and illegal in his state? Again, likely not.

You're going to strange lengths to defend the result of negligence.

It's still legal in some states, and in most of the laws (that I'm familiar with), police officers are still allowed to do it--the justification being that they are better trained. What message does that send to people when officers can do it and they can't? That it's wrong? Or just that "if you're good enough it's safe, just don't get caught".

Those states don't matter here. Texting while driving is illegal in California, the state Bruce lives in and where this accident took place.

Also, there are a lot of things cops can do that regular citizens can't.
 
The issue with retribution in the justice system is that it does a disservice to rehabilitation and nobody benefits from it.

I agree with you, but you are asking for a complete overhaul of the entirety of our justice system and our society. It isn't going to happen, ever. Retribution/punishment are part of who we are, you have to work exceedingly hard to sever it from the human condition.

To your point about people doing other dangerous things while driving, yes we do need educational programs about it. The state of driver's education in America is abysmal, yet we still hold people to a very high standard for responsible driving. Where is the sense in that?

I appreciate the sincerity, but I really don't think an education program is going to fix it. People will still put on makeup in the car, eat a full meal, read/watch stuff, and for the most part continue to act like driving is a completely brain dead autonomous task that basically requires no attention.

I don't need an education program, I know that driving is dangerous and that it requires my full attention. No one had to tell me not to text or read a book while driving on I-45. Not to derail and not an attack on religion, but I also don't need people to tell me not to murder/rape/steal. These things are rather self-evident. Drinking and driving, texting and driving, etc. are all just as self-evident.
 
California Penal Code section 17.5 specifically affirm's California's commitment to reducing recidivism, identifies public saftey as a clear criteria for evaluating success in the criminal justice system, and expresses dissasitisfaction with incarceration as a means to furthering these goals.
 
The only way this analogy makes any sense is if you can prove exactly how driver's education in American failed Bruce in a way that an be directly linked to being the cause of this accident.

Did he not know how to break? Likely not.
Was he not aware that texting while driving was a hazzard and illegal in his state? Again, likely not.

You're going to strange lengths to defend the result of negligence.

When I got my license I had to pass a written test and show that I could drive around a neighborhood. At what point was I educated about the different dangers of driving? The laws regarding cellphone usage (granted, this was 14 years ago)? Really any laws outside of right of way and no drinking and driving?

Again, I'm not defending the result of negligence, I'm just saying that prison for negligence (specifically texting and driving) is a waste and benefits no one.
 
I agree with Dave. Jail time in this case would be waste of money. I doubt jail would do anything to deter Bruce or really anyone else from texting and driving. Make him foot the bill for an awareness campaign and community service.

If he is sentenced it will be house arrest or some cushy minimum security prison, so what's the point.
 
I appreciate the sincerity, but I really don't think an education program is going to fix it. People will still put on makeup in the car, eat a full meal, read/watch stuff, and for the most part continue to act like driving is a completely brain dead autonomous task that basically requires no attention.

I don't need an education program, I know that driving is dangerous and that it requires my full attention. No one had to tell me not to text or read a book while driving on I-45. Not to derail and not an attack on religion, but I also don't need people to tell me not to murder/rape/steal. These things are rather self-evident. Drinking and driving, texting and driving, etc. are all just as self-evident.

With all due respect, you just said that you see average people doing these things all the time. That being the case, how can the dangers of negligent driving possibly be as self-evident as violent crimes?

I still encounter people all the time that claim that they can drive safely while talking on a cellphone because they're capable of multi-tasking. I was in the car with someone who answered a call hands-free just the other day and missed their highway exit not a minute into the call. The truth is that these people have no idea what they're doing. They think it's safe, they think of all the times they've done it where nothing's happened and decide that they're capable enough to do it when that couldn't be further from the truth.

I don't have the information, but I'd be curious to see how cellphone use while driving varies between countries and what kind of education is required for licensing.

Edit: Missed this part of what you said AB
I agree with you, but you are asking for a complete overhaul of the entirety of our justice system and our society. It isn't going to happen, ever. Retribution/punishment are part of who we are, you have to work exceedingly hard to sever it from the human condition.

I'm only proposing that we see that as a goal we can move towards. Many nations have that focus and enjoy lower recidivism rates as a result.
 
I agree with Dave. Jail time in this case would be waste of money. I doubt jail would do anything to deter Bruce or really anyone else from texting and driving. Make him foot the bill for an awareness campaign and community service.

If he is sentenced it will be house arrest or some cushy minimum security prison, so what's the point.

Would you be saying the same thing if it was a random individual and not a celebrity?

With all due respect, you just said that you see average people doing these things all the time. That being the case, how can the dangers of negligent driving possibly be as self-evident as violent crimes?

Just because people are willing to do things all the time does not mean they aren't completely aware of how dangerous and illegal they are. They just don't care.

I'm only proposing that we see that as a goal we can move towards. Many nations have that focus and enjoy lower recidivism rates as a result.

I hope you are right, America is an oddity though.
 
Would you be saying the same thing if it was a random individual and not a celebrity?

Yes. I've had this argument before with people when PSAs have come on with people relating their tragic experiences with texting and driving. Others rail that the driver should have gone to jail whereas I recognize the benefit from the active discussion of what a dangerous thing texting and driving is.

Just because people are willing to do things all the time does not mean they aren't completely aware of how dangerous and illegal they are. They just don't care.

I disagree. Ask someone why they allow themselves to do those things. I can almost guarantee the response will be something along the lines of "Oh it's fine I do it all the time, I can pay attention to my driving and do this at the same time no problem."

Irresponsibility bingo if they say "It's those other people out there who really scare me!"
 
Would you be saying the same thing if it was a random individual and not a celebrity?



Just because people are willing to do things all the time does not mean they aren't completely aware of how dangerous and illegal they are. They just don't care.

Community service bit yeah, obviously the average Joe can't afford an ad campaign. I feel jail time is for removing people who could continue to be a threat to society. At this point it's up to the judge to decide, but I would bet Bruce won't be texting and driving again especially without a license and the paparazzi watching him.
 
Suffering from gender dysphoria (if Bruce does) is bad enough, being chased by paparazzi trying to find any slip up in presentation so they can out a trans person in a fucking tabloid is disgusting and mentally draining. Bruce wouldn't be completely innocent if it she was texting while driving, but the amount of stress she must be under is insane. The paparazzi put Bruce in a horrible situation, she reacted to it in the worst way at that specific moment.

Fucking hate paparazzi.
 
I disagree. Ask someone why they allow themselves to do those things. I can almost guarantee the response will be something along the lines of "Oh it's fine I do it all the time, I can pay attention to my driving and do this at the same time no problem."

Irresponsibility bingo if they say "It's those other people out there who really scare me!"

Fair enough, I guess you have more faith in humanity than I do. I don't think the most massive PSA or even requiring people to take an education course/test would change anything. They are still going to text and drive. It has nothing to do with perceived danger or legality. That text is just too important.

I feel jail time is for removing people who could continue to be a threat to society.

Again, rehabilitation v retribution. It just isn't that simple as much as we may want it to be. Many individuals are not a continual threat to society, we still incarcerate them.
 
Fair enough, I guess you have more faith in humanity than I do. I don't think the most massive PSA or even requiring people to take an education course/test would change anything. They are still going to text and drive. It has nothing to do with perceived danger or legality. That text is just too important.

I do, I'm kind of an odd duck. The accident I mentioned before the other driver ran out and apologized (he turned in front of me) as I was getting out of the wreck and I just waved him off. Hell, this fall some lady made a left turn right in front of me while I was on my motorcycle and came within a foot of hitting me. I pulled off to the side to get rid of the shakes and she ran over to me to apologize. I asked her if she was going to be more careful in the future and she said yes, I rode off.

Yeah I guess I'm weird. Maybe it's less faith in humanity and more a recognition that people are generally pretty stupid regardless of how smart they are (hah, like myself for continuing to ride a motorcycle after that), so I can't blame them for doing something stupid every so often.

All the same, it takes time to change people's perceptions of responsibility but it can be done. The problem that I see is that texting is just so immediate and easy to do wherever you are that you just don't think about it. It'll take time but we'll get there.
 
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