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Campus police shoot and kill LGBT activist armed with knife at university

jfkgoblue

Member
It's not that it just worked out in 'some cases'. If they shot center mass they would've been fired and could've been persecuted because they broke the law and their training.

American police might be trained to aim for center mass, but at least Dutch and Swedish police are trained not to unless absolutely necessary.
You are simply wrong and have zero idea what you are talking about. They wouldn't "be fired and prosecuted" for aiming at center mass, there is literally nothing that suggests this.

You also know what's more likely? That they were aiming at center mass and hit the leg BECAUSE HANDGUNS ARE NOT VERY ACCURATE especially while under duress.

You keep bringing up aim for legs primarily as if that is proof, it's just a handbook and it even says that you can aim for the body.

Oh and that Dutch police you hold in such high regard?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-dead-by-dutch-police-six-years-after-father/

"Suicide by police bullet" is the suspected cause.
 

Chuckie

Member
You also know what's more likely? That they were aiming at center mass and hit the leg BECAUSE HANDGUNS ARE NOT VERY ACCURATE especially while under duress.

Lol. This is really reaching. Earlier this topic I already gave 3 examples of Dutch police shooting in legs.

Oh and look what happened yesterday: http://www.112noordholland.nl/regio...eveiliger-neer-politie-schiet-patient-in-been

A mental patient stabbed someone, police shot him in the leg.

https://www.lindanieuws.nl/nieuws/politie-schiet-agressieve-tassendief-tweemaal-in-been/

Police shoots robber twice in the leg. Wow...those must have been the most incompetent cops ever. They aimed for center mass twice, but hit him in the leg twice.

Dutch police force is far from perfect. But they do get trained to shoot in legs and they do shoot legs more often than center mass.

Now we can all discuss whether that is a better or worse tactic, but stop creating a false narrative of cops aiming for center mass and accidentally hitting legs.
 

jfkgoblue

Member
Lol. This is really reaching. Earlier this topic I already gave 3 examples of Dutch police shooting in legs.

Oh and look what happened yesterday: http://www.112noordholland.nl/regio...eveiliger-neer-politie-schiet-patient-in-been

A mental patient stabbed someone, police shot him in the leg.

https://www.lindanieuws.nl/nieuws/politie-schiet-agressieve-tassendief-tweemaal-in-been/

Police shoots robber twice in the leg. Wow...those must have been the most incompetent cops ever. They aimed for center mass twice, but hit him in the leg twice.

Dutch police force is far from perfect. But they do get trained to shoot in legs and they do shoot legs more often than center mass.

Now we can all discuss whether that is a better or worse tactic, but stop creating a false narrative of cops aiming for center mass and accidentally hitting legs.
Giving anecdotes is never a good argument when I can give anecdotes of them killing people as well. If you want anecdotes

US police shoots in leg

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...son-Injured-Shot-NYPD-Officers-435775653.html

Police shoot man who survives

http://www.ktvb.com/mobile/article/...confrontation-with-boise-police/277-476911846


The point is, that those anecdotes don't mean shit.

Here is an article about British police that have the same "shoot to incapacitate" statement that the Dutch does...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/17/shoot-to-kill-what-is-the-uks-policy

The official policy says firearms officers “shoot to incapacitate”. They are trained to target the centre of the chest as the quickest way to “neutralise” a suspect, even though it is highly likely that this will kill.

If the situation is dangerous enough to call for firearms, it is simply not worth endangering your life or the life of others with "an attempt to wound".
 

Yayate

Member
You are simply wrong and have zero idea what you are talking about. They wouldn't "be fired and prosecuted" for aiming at center mass, there is literally nothing that suggests this.

You also know what's more likely? That they were aiming at center mass and hit the leg BECAUSE HANDGUNS ARE NOT VERY ACCURATE especially while under duress.

You keep bringing up aim for legs primarily as if that is proof, it's just a handbook and it even says that you can aim for the body.

Oh and that Dutch police you hold in such high regard?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-dead-by-dutch-police-six-years-after-father/

"Suicide by police bullet" is the suspected cause.

I'm not holding them in high regard at all. I'm saying if that they can consistently manage to hit people in the legs, so can any other force that's specifically trained for it. And yes, the death of Mitchel was an awful thing that could be avoided and there's a good chance the cop wouldn't have gone free if he shot a white guy. That wasn't the first time the dutch police went out of line and it isn't the last time, either.

It's not just in the 'handbook'. They are specifically trained to aim at the legs, it's right there. On the website, and it also says, right there, that officers get federally investigated just for firing their firearm. And no, while the site does say they can 'aim for the body', this is referred to as the last possible option that should be avoided at all cost, and should only be done if nothing else is possible. It doesn't even say that officers should fire at center mass in this situation.

Do you seriously think Dutch police are so inaccurate they almost always miss the torso but somehow still manage to somehow consistently hit the legs? Because they consistently hit the legs.

The dutch police force has problems. Just like every other police force in the world. But they're the walking evidence that 'aiming for the legs' isn't an impossible or improbable tactic.

Here is an article about British police that have the same "shoot to incapacitate" statement that the Dutch does...

Most officers don't even carry a gun in the UK. Also that's a completely different country so I don't see how it matters...?

And again, Sweden does it, too.


But none of this is really relevant to anything at all. Enough other countries show that there's ways for the police to deal with people armed with knives that are slowly approaching them. That's the topic at hand. This officer wasn't trained for it and he did what he was trained for instead. I don't think he personally did anything wrong, but I do think it's a sign that he/the force wasn't trained enough to handle this.
 

Chuckie

Member
Giving anecdotes is never a good argument when I can give anecdotes of them killing people as well. If you want anecdotes

US police shoots in leg

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...son-Injured-Shot-NYPD-Officers-435775653.html

Police shoot man who survives

http://www.ktvb.com/mobile/article/...confrontation-with-boise-police/277-476911846


The point is, that those anecdotes don't mean shit.

Here is an article about British police that have the same "shoot to incapacitate" statement that the Dutch does...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/17/shoot-to-kill-what-is-the-uks-policy



If the situation is dangerous enough to call for firearms, it is simply not worth endangering your life or the life of others with "an attempt to wound".

My anecdotes were to show you that your 'they probably shot for the chest but hit the legs incidentally' was a false narrative.
And it still is. Your anecdotes of a (different country's) police force don't change that at all.

Dutch police kills on average three persons a year, and that is considered A LOT in countries that are not the US. They wound about 16 persons a year with a gun. Those numbers indicate that they more often shoot to wound than to kill. (Unless they are somehow magically constantly hitting legs while aiming for chest like you implied)
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Here is an article about British police that have the same "shoot to incapacitate" statement that the Dutch does...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/17/shoot-to-kill-what-is-the-uks-policy
Police around the civilized world are allowed to carry lethal sidearms, and use those to actually kill under extraordinary circumstances - we're discussing those here. It's a fact British police use way less often firearms than US police. Perhaps because Brits don't want their police force to kill people as often. Which has been the recurring subject of this very thread - why are people ok with other human beings getting shot dead over shouting 'shoot me' to the protectors of their society? Police are supposed to show more intelligence, instinct and basic human compassion than a speeding freight train, aren't they?

If the situation is dangerous enough to call for firearms, it is simply not worth endangering your life or the life of others with "an attempt to wound".
_Every_ situation on the street is endangering to the police. I suggest you hand them flamethrowers and hand grenades as everyday-trade tools. See how far your society goes.
 

J-Rzez

Member
Why do you people keep ignoring the fact that various police forces around the world are trained to shoot legs?

How about because that option has been explored and deemed unfit, aka, stupid.

You can easily miss a narrower target moving. The shot can cost you your life, another officers life, or another non-actors life. It can still be fatal. And this is America, law suits filed in criminal and civil courts against the department and against the individual shooter for various reasons in which they (suspect or filing party) lose more often, but ties up additional time, money, and stress. More so to prevent harm to innocent parties though naturally, but the lawsuit stuff is a problem.

So its not trained unless its a situation where you shoot whatever you can due to cover/time. So if youre that adamant about this email congressmen to fund studies and taxes to implement new training protocols including significantly more firearms time. So probably not going to happen.

We were trained in hand to hand, and I also took various martial arts for years. I'd still shoot rather than go hand to hand. Id rather not risk seeing my wife and friends again over some crazy.

Once again. Instead of focusing on the police which is super cool here on GAF, why don't you first focus on why it came to this that medical help and families failed this person. Thanks.
 
I can't believe that vigil became a riot. Idiots. No reason to flip cars. Scout was shot for their actions, suicide by police. Nothing discriminatory happened.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Hey, another example of "suicide by cops", this time in Oklahoma:

http://nypost.com/2017/09/20/police-in-oklahoma-city-fatally-shoot-man-who-was-holding-a-stick/

Moral of both stories: it doesn't matter what you're holding in your hands, as long as it's something prolonged - you will be shot at by a police firearm, since at least one of the officers will believe you're a threat to them.. And shouting 'shoot me' at them is a done deal - that's a clear a present danger..
 
Dutch police force is far from perfect. But they do get trained to shoot in legs and they do shoot legs more often than center mass.

Now we can all discuss whether that is a better or worse tactic, but stop creating a false narrative of cops aiming for center mass and accidentally hitting legs.

Are they ? According to a report from July this year most Dutch police train less then the mandatory or recommended time per year in training for arrest techniques and shooting.

https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/agent-krijgt-te-weinig-schiettraining~a305a12c/

Either Dutch police are so innately talented at shooting they are able to pull off amazing shots with no training or the comparisons are between apples and oranges, between two incomplete data sets. On the one hand a number of highly publicized fatal shootings in the US and non-fatal shootings in the Netherlands are compared so the impression comes out that US cops always shoot and kill suspects while Dutch police only shoot and wound.

Looking at the NYPD annual report there were 67 cases of guns being fired by the NYPD in 2015, 15 suspects were injured and 8 suspects were killed out of the 33 cases which were not accidental or use on animals. For each case of a suspect being killed there are two where they are wounded and another two where warning shots are used.
 

jfkgoblue

Member
Always figured "go blue" was a Michigan reference, but now I wonder.
Are you fucking serious right now? I'm saying "aiming for the legs" is an impractical suggestion because it is. I'm not saying that police should be more trigger happy or that all shootings are justified, I'm saying that "aiming for the legs" is not a practical suggestion.
Are they ? According to a report from July this year most Dutch police train less then the mandatory or recommended time per year in training for arrest techniques and shooting.

https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/agent-krijgt-te-weinig-schiettraining~a305a12c/

Either Dutch police are so innately talented at shooting they are able to pull off amazing shots with no training or the comparisons are between apples and oranges, between two incomplete data sets. On the one hand a number of highly publicized fatal shootings in the US and non-fatal shootings in the Netherlands are compared so the impression comes out that US cops always shoot and kill suspects while Dutch police only shoot and wound.

Looking at the NYPD annual report there were 67 cases of guns being fired by the NYPD in 2015, 15 suspects were injured and 8 suspects were killed out of the 33 cases which were not accidental or use on animals. For each case of a suspect being killed there are two where they are wounded and another two where warning shots are used.
This is exactly what I've been trying to say.
 
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