Support NeoGAF

[Beth Cyra]

What if they are? And more still, what does this hypothetical actor or actress matter to the trend being discussed? There already are transgender actors who want to play these characters.

It matters cause those actors are choosing to appear cis for one reason or another. Being closeted doesn't make you any less Trans then an out Trans Person.

They shouldn't be forced out of the closet for a Trans role just because another actor is more open about it.

Would Stealth Trans never be allowed to play trans roles?

This is just one the big problem with saying Cis Folk shouldn't play Trans Characters. It activity removes large parts of our own community because they do not act a certain way and they want to be a woman and not a trans woman or have anything to do with the label.

 

[KmA]

There's a lot of I'm ok with it as long as the acting is good (from I'm assuming cisgender people) but you should probably be asking if trans people are ok with it...

 

[excelsiorlef]

She literally(and she said literally) said that cismen getting transroles will lead to more violence.

You're extrapolating that she is making a wider analysis, when in fact she made the literal statement whilst literally prefacing it with that she was literally saying that cismen in transroles causes more violence.

Her words. Not mine. Maybe she couldve worded it better, or cast a wider net, but she is specifically saying that cismen in transroles literally causes more violence.

Because it reinforces the trans women are really men narrative which is at the heart of most trans violence, feeding into a culture increases a culture arguably...

But whatever hate the point all you want but don't dismiss it as she's just bitter she didn't get a roll, that's crap.

 

[Platy]

Her analysis that cisactors getting transroles literally leads to more violence against transfolk?

I disagree with THAT specific notion she made. If there is evidence that says contrary (that is, cismen in transroles leads to more violence) then I wont call her bitter. But shes the one who made the claim, I quoted it verbatim last page or so.

The idea that trans women are men is THE REASON that violence against trans women happen. Is that ok to you ?

If someone is in doubt if trans women are men or women and sees a hollywood movie with a MAN playing a WOMAN than he will think "hey, hollywood people thinks trans women are men" and then he will have the mentality that he will use to justify the violence against trans women when he practices it.

It is the same problem with racist "jokes" or homophobic "jokes"

It matters cause those actors are choosing to appear cis for one reason or another. Being closeted doesn't make you any less Trans then an out Trans Person.

Actualy there are more than once trans actressses have said they were denied trans roles because they "don't look trans enoght".

Candis Cayne even has an interview where she mentions that her voice was digitally manipulated to be deeper because the producers wanted her to be "more trans"

And of course then I ask you ... WHAT IS THE PROBLEM with looking cis ?

This is just one the big problem with saying Cis Folk shouldn't play Trans Characters. It activity removes large parts of our own community because they do not act a certain way and they want to be a woman and not a trans woman or have anything to do with the label.

WHAT ?
You are ALREADY removing large parts of our own community BECAUSE hollywood has just one idea of what a trans women is. Don't matter who plays the trans women.

Your problem is on trans ROLES, not trans actors

 

[Beth Cyra]

There's a lot of I'm ok with it as long as the acting is good (from I'm assuming cisgender people) but you should probably be asking if trans people are ok with it...

Lol as this thread shows we are as just as diverse and mixed in ideology and desires as anyone else so you will not get a single answer that way either.

We have folk like Caitlin Jenner supporting Trump in our ranks. So we can support all range and types

 

[Nostremitus]

well probably the most prominent film depiction of a trans character is eddie redmayne in last year's the danish girl, and probably the most prominent tv depiction of a trans character is jeffrey tambor in transparent, so yes quite obviously--but it's also okay for people to push back about how there are few roles for trans actors/actresses and so they should at least be considered for roles playing trans characters. transparent, as I understand it, has pretty extensive trans crew, a lot of trans background actors, at least one trans writer in addition to the showrunner drawing from her experience (her father is trans). so i suspect the criticism is mitigated in part because as a production it attempts to be inclusive.

it's also the case that historically many actors/actresses have played characters that are not trans but don't match the actor/actress' gender, like Louie Anderson on Baskets right now, or Cate Blanchett playing Bob Dylan in I'm Not There or whatever.

I liked that Sense8 has a real trans actress. That said, there's nothing wrong with hiring an actor for any particular role as long as its based on their ability to act and respectfully play the role.

Now, if an equally good trans actor were auditioning and rejected for prejudiced reasons, then that would be an issue.

 

[Platy]

Lol as this thread shows we are as just as diverse and mixed in ideology and desires as anyone else so you will not get a single answer that way either.

We have folk like Caitlin Jenner supporting Trump in our ranks. So we can support all range and types

No, this thread shows that the majority of trans people are against but there are a few exceptions =P

 

[Beth Cyra]

No, this thread shows that the majority of trans people are against but there are a few exceptions =P

Lol well that maybe indeed true and I dareally not say my views are the majority so you have me there friend.


However if your also trying to imply that anything like Jenner then you can go fuck yourself =P

 

[Platy]

it's also the case that historically many actors/actresses have played characters that are not trans but don't match the actor/actress' gender, like Louie Anderson on Baskets right now, or Cate Blanchett playing Bob Dylan in I'm Not There or whatever.

THIS should be the main focus of the conversation.

Because when they choose someone like Jaret Leto and Redmayne to play a trans woman is not a cis playing a trans ... it is first and foremost a MAN playing a WOMAN.

And the fact that most of the thread is missing this point just proves how society NEEDS at least cis woman playing trans woman to reinforce this idea

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The idea that trans women are men is THE REASON that violence against trans women happen. Is that ok to you ?

If someone is in doubt if trans women are men or women and sees a hollywood movie with a MAN playing a WOMAN than he will think "hey, hollywood people thinks trans women are men" and then he will have the mentality that he will use to justify the violence against trans women when he practices it.

It is the same problem with racist "jokes" or homophobic "jokes"

And thats just one of many excuses a bigot will use. A bigot is a bigot, no matter what theyre told or if facts are laid out infront of then.

Like...an actor is an actor. A role is a role. If people cant see that, and think it reflects reality(if hollywood hires a man to play a women, then they must all be men!!) then they wouldnt care if a transperson had the part instead.

If Matt Bomer was the best choice for the role, and if his performance turns out well enough, then thats great. If it was a transperson playing the role, thatd be great as well. Either way, a bigot isnt going to care who played the role.

Like...I disagree with the notion that only transpeople should play transroles. Just like I would disagree with only straight guys should have straight roles, for example. And to put blame on a subset of actors for violence against a grouo because they portrayed a role that wasnt what they are in real life is antagonistic to what being an actor is.

Like I said, I agree with some of her points, but that doesnt mean I agree with all of them, IE cisactors in transroles lead to transdeaths, or that only transfolk should play transroles.

 

[afternoon delight]

But the end result is that the only people that "An actor can play any role!" really applies to (outside of voice work in certain cases, although in some ways that can be worse) is cis white actors. That's why we tend to get so bothered by all this.

I don't currently have the energy at the moment to dissect the whole "Well, the parts would require a cis man to play!" because that is its own huge can of worms.

Oh I get what you're saying, and we basically agree- white straight people have dominated the stage and screen and even with years of criticism rallied against the notion, the trend will continue to do so. Anyone trying to work in the visual entertainment mediums will agree with that.

What the mainstream does not see or discuss or address are the countless, nay, unheard of multitudes of productions of all kinds featuring any cast under the sun. All women versions of Hamlet. Prisoners of every race and sexuality doing A Dolls House. The unspoken continual success of multi-racial and cultural casts. This idea, to turn people away from roles simply based on what they identify with... To imply or suggest that an acting person can't understand or couldn't relate or couldn't mimic a person with identifiable traits and wants is frankly ludicrous.

If someone wants to prove to me they understand Malcolm X better than any other person on the planet and can channel that person's demeanor, speech, and feelings into a cohesive narrative, we're going to praise it no matter what they look like.

 

[methane47]

One of those is not like the other

 

[A Link to the Past]

Cisgender, not cisgendered

 

[Sushi Nao]

Like I said, I agree with some of her points, but that doesnt mean I agree with all of them, IE cisactors in transroles lead to transdeaths, or that only transfolk should play transroles.

Hey look, so I was trying to gently lead you to a conclusion, but I'll just say it.

As a cis man, input against the validity of a trans woman's experiences is at best useless, and at worst actively damaging. You can Dunning-Kruger your face off about trans experiences all you want, but recognize that you might get called out on it.

This happens to cis women all the time, too: right now in the headphone thread, women's perspectives about not wanting to be bothered are being railroaded over by anecdotes about how some guy talked to a girl some time so there.

 

[Platy]

And thats just one of many excuses a bigot will use. A bigot is a bigot, no matter what theyre told or if facts are laid out infront of then.

Like...an actor is an actor. A role is a role. If people cant see that, and think it reflects reality(if hollywood hires a man to play a women, then they must all be men!!) then they wouldnt care if a transperson had the part instead.

If Matt Bomer was the best choice for the role, and if his performance turns out well enough, then thats great. If it was a transperson playing the role, thatd be great as well. Either way, a bigot isnt going to care who played the role.

Like...I disagree with the notion that only transpeople should play transroles. Just like I would disagree with only straight guys should have straight roles, for example. And to put blame on a subset of actors for violence against a grouo because they portrayed a role that wasnt what they are in real life is antagonistic to what being an actor is.

Like I said, I agree with some of her points, but that doesnt mean I agree with all of them, IE cisactors in transroles lead to transdeaths, or that only transfolk should play transroles.

So you are in favor of racist and homophobic jokes being spoken by people like trump or any other people in power ?

I mean we should allow blackface than because bigots will bigot anyway.

Make an entire culture in reverence of bigots because they will be bigots anyway.

Why make crimes "hate crimes" receive bigger sentences if bigots will be bigots anyway ?

We should just say "fuck yeah bigots" because it is not like we can make some kind of WORLD where they see that they are wrong and MAYBE think different and then one by one we will erradicate those ideas

 

[A Link to the Past]

Anyway, ultimately, here's the issue for me.

Sure, in theory it would be okay for a cis person to portray a trans person, but the problem is that the "there are not enough trans performers" excuse is executed so gosh darned often. You also see the problem when it comes to trans people in any role, such as when Transparent came out and had absolutely no trans writers involved. The propensity of cis performers playing trans roles (a propensity that you don't see for a lot of roles) simply cannot be caused by an industry that is operating in good faith wrt trans people.

 

[Fury451]

I'm sure anyone can play any role as long as it is right for them and is respectful toward the community it is trying to represent...so yes.

Basically. Also as mentioned: Transparent

 

[Platy]

Basically. Also as mentioned: Transparent

If transparent didn't had many trans actors in supporting roles it would have been as complained as Danish Girl and Dallas Buyers Club

 

[Ekai]

Anyway, ultimately, here's the issue for me.

Sure, in theory it would be okay for a cis person to portray a trans person, but the problem is that the "there are not enough trans performers" excuse is executed so gosh darned often. You also see the problem when it comes to trans people in any role, such as when Transparent came out and had absolutely no trans writers involved. The propensity of cis performers playing trans roles (a propensity that you don't see for a lot of roles) simply cannot be caused by an industry that is operating in good faith wrt trans people.

On point.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

So you are in favor of racist and homophobic jokes being spoken by people like trump or any other people in power ?

I mean we should allow blackface than because bigots will bigot anyway.

Make an entire culture in reverence of bigots because they will be bigots anyway.

Why make crimes "hate crimes" receive bigger sentences if bigots will be bigots anyway ?

We should just say "fuck yeah bigots" because it is not like we can make some kind of WORLD where they see that they are wrong and MAYBE think different and then one by one we will erradicate those ideas

Those are some leaps and assumptions there. Now unless the movie is about how stupid a transperson is, saying that a cisperson portraying a transperson is akin to blackface is...a strawman?

You're extrapolating alot from what I said. I disagreed with the way she said something, I am allowed to do that without it meaning that I disagree with everything she said.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Those are some leaps and assumptions there. Now unless the movie is about how stupid a transperson is, saying that a cisperson portraying a transperson is akin to blackface is...a strawman?

You're extrapolating alot from what I said. I disagreed with the way she said something, I am allowed to do that without it meaning that I disagree with everything she said.

If there was an extremely positive black role portrayed by a white person in blackface, would that make it okay? That's the issue I see - blackface is not inherently done with the intention to disparage, yet I do not think that we would consider it more okay for a film to unironically do blackface even if the character was good.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

If there was an extremely positive black role portrayed by a white person in blackface, would that make it okay? That's the issue I see - blackface is not inherently done with the intention to disparage, yet I do not think that we would consider it more okay for a film to unironically do blackface even if the character was good.

Until its attempted, we wont know. But blackface does have the history of being meant to caricature and harmfully stereotype black people. There are harmful caricatures of transpeople in media, but it doesnt have nearly enough the same negativity as blackface surrounding it.

Like theres Tropic Thunder, but thats done satirically and well knowing that its mocking the tropes behind having a white man portray a black person because that man happens to be this dignified actor.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Until its attempted, we wont know. But blackface does have the history of being meant to caricature and harmfully stereotype black people. There are harmful caricatures of transpeople in media, but it doesnt have nearly enough the same negativity as blackface surrounding it.

Like theres Tropic Thunder, but thats done satirically and well knowing that its mocking the tropes behind having a white man portray a black person because that man happens to be this dignified actor.

The biggest caricature of trans women is that they are just really men....

That;s the reasoning behind all the bathroom laws and everything....

 

[A Link to the Past]

Until its attempted, we wont know. But blackface does have the history of being meant to caricature and harmfully stereotype black people. There are harmful caricatures of transpeople in media, but it doesnt have nearly enough the same negativity as blackface surrounding it.

Like theres Tropic Thunder, but thats done satirically and well knowing that its mocking the tropes behind having a white man portray a black person because that man happens to be this dignified actor.

Tropic Thunder is the reason I introduced "unironically." The point is however, that we do tend to criticize people for doing blackface, even if they are operating in good faith. It's just like whitewashing - there have been positive Asian characters played by white people, but that only makes it slightly more okay than this:

 

[kirblar]

Hey look, so I was trying to gently lead you to a conclusion, but I'll just say it.

As a cis man, input against the validity of a trans woman's experiences is at best useless, and at worst actively damaging. You can Dunning-Kruger your face off about trans experiences all you want, but recognize that you might get called out on it.

This happens to cis women all the time, too: right now in the headphone thread, women's perspectives about not wanting to be bothered are being railroaded over by anecdotes about how some guy talked to a girl some time so there.

But he didn't do that. He initially disagreed with her opinion on a cause/effect relationship. This is not invalidating her opinion or experience, it's expressing a contrary belief. Appealing to identity as authority is valid on personal experience/narrative. But that's not what she's expressing at that particular moment- it's a belief in a specific systemic level cause/effect relationship.

She lost me when she said a cisgender man acting out a role will lead to the death of transwomen.

 

[A Link to the Past]

She lost me when she said a cisgender man acting out a role will lead to the death of transwomen.

Excess use of cis men to portray trans women is a detriment to the normalization of trans actresses in media (and the normalization of this would in turn lead to an increase in the normalization of trans people in real life).

 

[WarLox]

The term Cisgender just seems so offensive

 

[excelsiorlef]

But he didn't do that. He initially disagreed with her opinion on a cause/effect relationship. This is not invalidating her opinion or experience, it's expressing a contrary belief. Appealing to identity as authority is valid on personal experience/narrative. But that's not what she's expressing at that particular moment- it's a belief in a specific systemic level cause/effect relationship.

And then made it all about how it's just her being salty for not getting a role soooo....

Cisgender just seems so offensive

 

[A Link to the Past]

The term Cisgender just seems so offensive

How so?

 

[kirblar]

And then made it all about how it's just her being salty for not getting a role soooo....

Yeah, not getting a post defending that one.

It's just that it's really important to be able to discuss larger-issue things without devolving it into everyone trying to play a Identity trump card. I have discussions with a friend about Drag in general, and we have completely opposite opinions on it. I think it's positive, she thinks it's negative. We could both start pulling that card on each other, but it would shut down discussion and the ability for us to hear each other out.

 

[Platy]

The term Cisgender just seems so offensive

Yeah, saying "real man" and "real woman" is so much less offensive to cis people. It is highly offensive to trans people but who cares ? =P

If it seems offensive is because it sounds like transgender in your head ... and if that sounds offensive ....

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I think it's alright for a cisgender person to play a transgender character, and a transgender person play a cisgender person. I also think it'd be cool if a studio or whoever made extra effort to fill a transgender role with a transgender actor.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The biggest caricature of trans women is that they are just really men....

That;s the reasoning behind all the bathroom laws and everything....

I know. But this movie isnt about that. If it comes out and it is about a man dressing as a woman...then Im there right with you in criticizing. Like I said, its dependent on performance, but if the movie handles the subject matter well, then I dont think itll lead to more transdeaths just because the actor is cis.

Tropic Thunder is the reason I introduced "unironically." The point is however, that we do tend to criticize people for doing blackface, even if they are operating in good faith. It's just like whitewashing - there have been positive Asian characters played by white people, but that only makes it slightly more okay than this:

Right. Like take the Deathnote with a black L and white Light. Id love it if it had Japanese people acting out the roles, but Im still going to give it a chance to see if those actors can perform the roles as I imagined them in the manga. To me, performance is everything. Thats just me though, and you are free to disagree with that.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I know. But this movie isnt about that. If it comes out and it is about a man dressing as a woman...then Im there right with you in criticizing. Like I said, its dependent on performance, but if the movie handles the subject matter well, then I dont think itll lead to more transdeaths just because the actor is cis.



Right. Like take the Deathnote with a black L and white Light. Id love it if it had Japanese people acting out the roles, but Im still going to give it a chance to see if those actors can perform the roles as I imagined them in the manga. To me, performance is everything. Thats just me though, and you are free to disagree with that.

That's the thing though, and yes, closeting and other current unfortunate restrictions on the trans community is a detriment to the ability for trans people to get good roles in media, but going with Death Note, I'm pretty sure that example you brought up, the casting directors specifically did not want to cast Asian actors for the role of Light. If performance is everything, shouldn't you be ethically opposed to Death Note since the casting directors objectively did not put performance at the top of their priorities?

 

[Ekai]

Yeah, saying "real man" and "real woman" is so much less offensive to cis people. It is highly offensive to trans people but who cares ? =P

If it seems offensive is because it sounds like transgender in your head ... and if that sounds offensive ....

The transitive property in action....I'll see myself out.
Suffice it to say, I agree with ALttP and some other peeps in here.

 

[WarLox]

How so?

I guess because it reminds me of cissy, which has been used as a derogatory word for men for decades.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

That's the thing though, and yes, closeting and other current unfortunate restrictions on the trans community is a detriment to the ability for trans people to get good roles in media, but going with Death Note, I'm pretty sure that example you brought up, the casting directors specifically did not want to cast Asian actors for the role of Light. If performance is everything, shouldn't you be ethically opposed to Death Note since the casting directors objectively did not put performance at the top of their priorities?

I mean performance in terms of acting ability. To me, the best actors/actresses are able to convinve you that they are the character they are portraying. And that is agnostic to how they look or how they identify. If tomorrow they announced an Abraham Lincoln biopic where Abe was played by a black actor, I would want to see that. I wouldnt care if it wasnt historically accurate to the Presidents ethnicity. Its why I always dislike when PR cycles tout "how much X looks like Y in this movie", thats just junk when it comes to acting. Not saying there isnt merit to looking like a person youre portraying, but for me thats low on the totem pole.

But I digress. As it is, I disagreed with how she worded a statement because of the implications it gave. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I guess because it reminds me of cissy, which has been used as a derogatory word for men for decades.

That's not what the term comes from though, it comes from the Latin "cis" which means "on this side of."

Also, cis is not exclusively male - it refers to anyone, male or female, whose gender corresponds with their physical sex.

The transitive property in action....I'll see myself out.
Suffice it to say, I agree with ALttP and some other peeps in here.

I'll show you the door

 

[Misha]

I guess because it reminds me of cissy, which has been used as a derogatory word for men for decades.

You're thinking of sissy which ironically is often used as a slur against trans girls

 

[excelsiorlef]

I guess because it reminds me of cissy, which has been used as a derogatory word for men for decades.

Ummmmm that's spelled sissy...

 

[A Link to the Past]

You're thinking of sissy which ironically is often used as a slur against trans girls

Another good point on that. I didn't even think of the fact that it wasn't spelled the same lol.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Quality of the actor is far more important than their gender identification of sexual preference

 

[A Link to the Past]

Quality of the actor is far more important than their gender identification of sexual preference

No it isn't. Casting directors exclude people based on race, gender, sexuality, etc. constantly. The Last Airbender didn't choose the best actors, it chose the whitest ones.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I think cisgender actors can certainly play trans roles, in certain cases, but there should be a priority to cast trans actors, at least.

I understand why trans folk are uncomfortable with cismen playing transwomen (because of the whole "trans women are just men in drag" idea that it could reinforced, accidentally or otherwise), but I wonder, what do you think of ciswomen playing transwomen and cismen playing transmen? Is that a bit better/less offensive?

What about ciswomen playing transmen, like Tatiana Maslany in Orphan Black? (Keep in mind she played a FtM transman who's a clone of several other girls whom she also plays xD)

Sense8 is so on point in showing queer culture, it's impressive for a show that isn't about queer culture specifically...

Aren't the creators of that show transwomen? That would explain it.

Asking for Trans Women to be a Bond girl or Black Widow is ridiculous.

Much of these roles in the past are given to what people believe to be the sexist women on the damn planet. It's already like a .02 chance for CIS women to have a shot let alone the freak lottery a Trans Woman would need.

Harisu?

The term Cisgender just seems so offensive

How so. It literally just means "non-trans".

 

[A Link to the Past]

I understand why trans folk are uncomfortable with cismen playing transwomen (because of the whole "trans women are just men in drag" idea that it could reinforced, accidentally or otherwise), but I wonder, what do you think of ciswomen playing transwomen and cismen playing transmen? Is that a bit better/less offensive?

To me it is better, but not so much that I would be very okay with it. It's kind of like, an Asian woman playing the role of an Asian man is more okay than a white woman playing the role of an Asian man. When you cast a cis woman to play a trans woman, it is at the very least a woman in the role. When it's a cis man, they are neither trans nor a woman.

 

[karasu]

I'm all for more work for actual trans actors. I imagine they could bring something to the role that most cis actors can't. I feel the same way about disabled roles. Let's get some actual disabled people working.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Aren't the creators of that show transwomen? That would explain it.

Oh yeah I know but it's still wild, some of the San Fran scenes in the pilot look like they just grabbed random people from pride with acting talent and said be in this. It was just so cool to see that but it not be what it's about.

 

[Nudull]

Maybe we should focus on getting actual trans actors and actresses with the experience of being trans into these roles instead of reinforcing the stereotype that the are essentially men/women in drag? Bad enough that Hollywood turns a blind eye to them, but do we have to excuse it?

 

[Za-Neen-Jya]

If Scarlett Johanson can play a Japanese cyborg, then I guess anything is possible.

 

[Ekai]

Honestly the belief that race/gender doesn't matter when it comes to casting is odd to me. Sometimes it's quite integral to the story. It'd be like suggesting that Kunta Kinte could be played by a white man. Or MLK Jr.. Race plays quite a role at times. Obviously no one is suggesting this specifically in this topic but the example is being used to showcase the point here.