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[Spoo]

If you take away the film grain, the beautiful image you imagine without the film grain won't be so beautiful anymore, especially because of temporal aliasing. Sure, screenshots will look nicer but the actual game won't. Film grain really helps in hiding a lot of that stuff by taking your attention away from them. Human eyes and brains have evolved to notice change in our perception (which is why contrast is more important than color accuracy in most cases) and film grain, by moving around a lot, really helps distracting you from imperfections.

...

It is unreasonable to ask for options in console games since that's what makes them console games, simplicity. Take Mac vs Linux for an example. Linux provides tons of options while Macs provide good out of the box experience. In the end, a system with Linux kernel and customized environment is the most optimal solution, but there's a reason why a standardized, non-customizable environment like Macs appeal to lots of people.


In the end, I think a lot of people are against "film" grain because of the word "film" is not very popular right now in the video gaming world. Even if film grain never existed in actual movies, the effect would help more than hinder in video games if used right unless you have enough power for super AA and downsampling.

Thanks for the input, man.

I can't really think of a game off the top of my head where turning the grain off didn't actually produce an overall better image for me. The primary reason for this comes from the initial condition: that looking at a bunch of scrapes, dots, smears, or whatever the noise is (it varies) is a worse "blemish" than seeing the detail that leads to the "seams" of the game. You may be right -- it's hiding stuff you would rather not see. But from where I stand, it's like covering dirt on snow with piss. I'll take the dirt. My attention is diverted to, well, the noise. It's not a win-win.

As for being unreasonable for console games -- I don't know. It's not an effect that is difficult to program in (I've done it myself, with one approach), and there have certainly been games that give users control over some aspects (edit: I'm going to say I actually agree with you here after thinking about it a little more. It's not reasonable to expect every developer to pull a Naughty Dog on technical features). I'll agree that it's not frequent, and as a hard-line requirement, it probably wouldn't happen. But, you know, it definitely won't happen if people don't whine about it, I guess lol.

You may be right about why people don't like film grain. As a technique for achieving a look where it makes sense, I am not opposed to it. But I don't feel that it makes that much sense to cover the entire screen in imperfections to make up for... imperfections. Temporal anti-aliasing seems like it covers enough cases for other things. When quick movements are occuring, I still notice noise all over the place.

I do think it's the case that I may be more sensitive to it than other people. Totally possible. Either way, thanks for comments. You do make a good technical case for why it can be employed successfully, I just think that if you start from the proposition that "noise is annoying", it doesn't make up for what it fixes.

 

[MercuryLS]

I absolutely have the post-processing effects applied to The Order. Everything looks so drab and blurry.

 

[mejin]

Today, a friend of mine came to play The Order with me. All the concerns about IQ were eliminated when he saw it in motion.

I like what I see too. So, I think when is well implemented, it's a nice touch.

 

[WillyFive]

Oddly enough, Dumb & Dumber To was the same way, especially when compared to the original.

What causes this? Is it the modern cameras & equipment, set pieces & props, or both? I've always wondered.

Modern equipment. Cameras are designed to grab light as best as it can, and newer cameras don't have the same imperfections and drawbacks as ancient cameras did, so they grab the light and world around them significantly better and in a cleaner way.

Of course, when what you're filming actually is fake (like a film set), then it's going to look fake in the camera as well; unlike before where the cameras were so bad at capturing images that even a film set looked real on camera.

 

[Zombie James]

I absolutely have the post-processing effects applied to The Order. Everything looks so drab and blurry.

The Order's image quality is impeccable, IMHO.

 

[djplaeskool]

It really depends on the game.
The Order, as an obvious example, is absolutely stunning with it, and I love its impact on the presentation.

 

[Alex]

Some post processing is OK, it's when these developers layer this shit on top of each other that it starts to seriously degrade the clarity and image quality.

 

[11redder]

film grain is used to great effect in the Silent Hill games.

Agreed, I liked its use in Ico as well.

 

[whiteninja]

As long as it can be turned off then I dont mind. I'm far more annoyed by something called vignetting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vignetting
It couldn't be disabled in mass effect (not sure if there were mods or anything for the pc version, I played it on 360)

 

[MercuryLS]

The Order's image quality is impeccable, IMHO.

I don't know what it is but everything feels like it's out of focus when you're panning the camera around.

 

[KOCMOHABT]

uhm I am pretty sure engines like CryEngine and Frostbyte have some sort of grain by default enabled to combat color banding in low frequency areas

 

[Spoo]

As long as it can be turned off then I dont mind. I'm far more annoyed by something called vignetting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vignetting
It couldn't be disabled in mass effect (not sure if there were mods or anything for the pc version, I played it on 360)

Hmm, I could see where that technique could be useful in place of noise in a game like Silent Hill for dark hallways, or something. But used profusely, yes, that would bother the hell out of me.

 

[SpiceMelange]

Whenever I see film grain in my games I always automatically check the options / google on how to turn it off.

Seriously this is how I feel when I boot a game for the first time with film grain

 

[Stimpack]

I feel like nothing can trump low FOV on console games without the ability to adjust it. Kingdoms of Amalur was a god damn nightmare.

 

[J-Tier]

I like the film grain. It should just be toggle-able in the future like many have said.

 

[Red]

Grain can provide great texture. I am a fan of the classic film look, and am all for utilizing it except in cases where style comes at the expense of substance. I am fine with everything up to the point where visual effects affect gameplay in some adverse way, like DoF obscuring distant objects.

Someone criticized vignette effects earlier and I agree. I like a vignette in stills, but It bugs me in moving pictures. I hated it in Mass Effect. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if it were subtle.

 

[keltickennedy]

I think it works well for certain games but not others.

I hated it in Mass Effect and always turned it off but I think it's used wonderfully in The Order

I felt the exact same way.

 

[DocSeuss]

I've never seen film grain used in games to convincingly emulate a filmic look, so I don't see the point aside from trying to hide a lack of detail in certain areas of a game.

 

[Platy]

House of the Dead Overkill was the only game where movie effects are awesomely used.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Fear 2 is the first game I remember using this...

If you're going to add this to your game, at least make it a toggle...
Almost all games now have blur as a toggle in pc games (thankfully), and many have bloom as a toggle.
Just need the same for CA, grain, color grading etc

forcing all this crap on every player just because some artist decides he likes it is like serving every single customer at a food shop this

Now I personally love good sour belgian mayonaise on my fries, but I bet half of you looking at that picture are thinking 'get fucked, sneakystephan I think that is gross'
The courteous thing to do is ask if you want a condiment on your fries, or maybe a little jar of it seperately
Similarly, get fucked artists, I think grain is gross

 

[Maushimo]

Film grain is fine for me but I can understand why people dislike it so much, I think all devs need to include an option to turn it off, that and motion blur.

 

[DavidDesu]

I think it helps games shake off their artificial look. We're still trying to battle against jaggy lines flickering away in the image in most games (on console anyway). It just adds an element of realism to an image. The use of about 40% film grain in Driveclub's photomode just does something to make screenshots of that game look even more amazing than it already is. Sure it can be overdone and it can be used out of place, but used right it just adds something special.

Also I think games typically look too clean, too artificial. If the game is attempting for any kind of realistic look then this can kill it if colours are flat and pop out like a comic book. Film grain helps to diffuse that look and even replicates the way our eyes can see a lot of noise that our brain tries to filter out but it's there when you look for it. Just look at the sky for example, it's not a perfect gradient of blue, there's a mass of noise in your eyesight.

I don't mind the use of film grain. Chromatic aberration on the other hand... I played the demo of Life Is Strange and in that game the CA encroaches far too much on each side of the image, it genuinely makes me think my vision is blurry and I keep rubbing my eyes. Now THAT's distracting! CA is ok if used sparingly but in that case it's a real bugbear of mine.

 

[BLunted]

I always turn that crap off, along with fog filters, motion blur, chromatic aberration. Don't like how devs keep trying to hide behind this stuff.

 

[DaciaJC]

I wouldn't say film grain is nearly as bad an effect as chromatic aberration or other big offenders, but it certainly is one of those where too much of it leaves you wondering just what in the world was going on in the minds of the art department ...

 

[Mindman]

ALWAYS let us turn it off devs!!

 

[TheRedSnifit]

House of the Dead Overkill was the only game where movie effects are awesomely used.

^

 

[hiex_]

I'm a fan of film grain, I want more. It looks great.

 

[-MD-]

I thought The Order used it quite well, but Evil Within and Dying Light were bad

It was terrible in evil within tho

The film grain was disgusting in Evil Within. It made everything that was dark or black turn into blue. I had to turn that shit off.

You guys are insane, Evil Within's film grain looked so good.

And gogogow your monitor is broken or something.

 

[The Artisan]

I liked it in Me2.

 

[Tagyhag]

Just make it a toggle

Seriously, this is the best solution. Some people want clean and crisp, others want dirty and smudged, let the individual decide.

 

[Trojan]

Sounds like the OP is going against the grain.

 

[Fularu]

Film grain was perfect in House of the Dead Overkill

 

[jerry1594]

^

Movie effects were good in L4D

 

[DSix]

I cant imagine Silent Hill 2 or Mass Effect without the film grain.

 

[NastyBook]

I think the implementation works great in The Order 1886, given the time period and overall style. Adds that gritty old school edge, without being overly intrusive. Reminded me of Gangs of New York.

They nailed it, thanks for the comparisons.

 

[NeoZylom]

Film grain is the reason why I can't enjoy Evil Within... Seriously, it gives me motion sickness :/

Edit: Wait what? You can turn it off???!!!

 

[BLunted]

Film grain is the reason why I can't enjoy Evil Within... Seriously, it gives me motion sickness :/

Edit: Wait what? You can turn it off???!!!

If i recall correctly, you can remove the grain and the black bars on PC, via console commands. Might be wrong.

 

[Cerity]

Definitely, even if just an option to toggle it on/off. I didn't mind it in Evil Within but made me want to tear my eyes out in Remember Me.

That said give us specific toggles for all of the post processing that is being applied, bundling them all up into one post processing option is one of the more annoying things I've seen with recent games.

 

[komorebi]

Nah, I love film grain. Its nice to be able to toggle it on or off though. Any game that uses it should at least have the option.

 

[InfiniteNine]

The Silent Hill games look better with the grain.

 

[kodecraft]

Film grain I can tolerate, on The Evil Within PC version, I got film grain turned up to 100.

 

[Chabbles]

grain is beautiful and i love it

This, i mean maybe give the option to switch it off for people who dont like it, but to stop completely ?, screw that. Its a great filter.

 

[MCN]

Another sad symptom of the gaming industry's obsession with "cinematic experiences". To me, it shows developers who lack the confidence to make games in their own right, and would rather be film-makers.

 

[HaterIsHating]

I have a eye condition known as Visual Snow. Basically it's like I see the world with constant film grain. As far as I know this is a rare condition but I thought it was normal.

So yeah I'm OK with not adding more grain.

Holy shit, didn't know that was a thing. TIL.
This could explain a whole lot. I always experienced some "noise" which especially became evident when looking at plain white surfaces (e.g. a wall). I always had trouble to describe this effect to other people and thus was not sure if it's normal.

Gonna write you a pn soon, hope you don't mind.

 

[Starbuck2907]

It's used to disguise aliasing in some games. I hate it.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

I liked it in The Order and P.T.

P.T just wouldnt be as creepy for some reason without it.

 

[EGM1966]

I say let the devs do what they want. We all want games to our personal tastes at the expense of others anyway so just let the devs go for their vision and like it or not as per your preferences.

spwcific to film grain I don't mind it but it seems an obvious candidate for a setting option to allow it toggled on or off. That way the same game can satisfy broader audience in terms of those who like/dislike the effect.

 

[dracula_x]

I like film grain.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Like most effects and techniques it can be good as long as it's used in the right game and in the right degree.

 

[drotahorror]

2) Dying Light (Almost obnoxious -- from what I understand it can now be turned off, but that was not the case at release, without modifications to game property scripts).

Just loaded it up on ps4. Can't on there. Dunno why devs add the option for PC users via later patches but don't for console users.

Gotta respect the Lords of the Fallen devs for adding the ability to drop the CA on both consoles and PC.