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Can someone explain the anti gun control argument?
- Thread starter Vault Dweller 111
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Well, there are a lot of hypotheticals but you can look at History. Russia probably thought it was going to run over Afghanistan in the 80s. Honestly if you say the US military turns on the civillian population then there is no way they win based on numbers alone. Would it ever happen? No of course not.
Why can't a ban be sensible? We have the data showing that it works.
What is the reasonable, logical counterargument to a ban?
Exactly, in the UK you can own a shotgun for farming purposes, surely the could limit the gun you buy to be used for hunting, and prove that you need it with a hunting license etc.
old manatee
Banned
It's the quickest way to execute a black person for texting in a movie theater or walking on a sidewalk.
Glass Shark
Banned
hunting isn't an excuse either because it's a recreational activity just like driving really fast, and we put lots of restrictions on that and everyone just kinda shrugs and says "okay"
and don't even start on animal overpopulation or whatever because if we care more about there being lots of deer than saving human lives THEN WHAT THE HELL ARE WE EVEN DOING
and don't even start on animal overpopulation or whatever because if we care more about there being lots of deer than saving human lives THEN WHAT THE HELL ARE WE EVEN DOING
manfestival
Member
I think the only good form of gun control is having background checks and mental checks.
Hari Seldon
Member
There is nothing preventing you from owning a tank outside of money. Arnold has a tank. Also plenty of collectors have vintage war planes.
JordanN
Banned
There's a huge amount of irony when he says a violence free utopia will come about when gun owners kill themselves.
Isn't that basically admitting that guns are the final obstacle to peace?
Sweet. Can't wait to drive through Times Square with a sign saying "this barrel is ready to fire*.
*not serious by the way
FUBAR McDangles
Member
Stricter gun control that limits who gets what is something that I am interested in, but giving up all rights to own a firearm is something that I am 100% against. Most of those reasons are my own, but I can think of three arguments for the ownership of firearms among certain types of people that are pretty easy to justify:
For people who live on farms, firearms are almost a necessity. Protecting live stock from predators like wolves, coyotes, raccoon, foxes, and so on is something that you need a rifle for. Traps only work so well, and it is getting to the point where these animals have figured out ways to avoid the majority of them.
For people who live in rural areas where only one or two police officers are available for over 1,800 square miles, firearms are pretty darn close to needed. Either to protect livestock, or in case something crime related actually happened. For many people living in cities, police response is only a phone call and 5 minute wait away. For others, a phone call and a 30 or 45 or even hour long wait is the norm.
For people who count on hunting to make their lives a whole lot easier in winter (basically, seasonal workers who are laid off in winter and hunt for deer to provide food for themselves and family while they do not work - this is something that does actually happen, especially in smaller towns), firearms make their lives a lot easier vs hunting with a bow.
Now, you can read all that and call bullshit or that guns aren't needed, or that getting rid of all firearms would do more good than what it would harm the above people, but to be honest there are good reasons to own firearms beyond the typical hobby/enthusiast argument that many throw around.
Keeping deer populations in reasonable numbers does save human lives.
Even in areas that I have lived in, with avid hunting populations and hundreds of deer killed every hunting season, there are still dozens of car accidents every year involving deer. They are not smart, they do not avoid roads, and they can seriously damage a vehicle and kill somebody in many cases. Going 65mph on a highway at night with a deer sprinting out of the trees 20 feet away, up through the ditch and out onto the road not only can total a car but can also kill anybody and everybody in the vehicle if/when the deer flies up through the windshield and into the actual seating area.
Not to mention the amount of deer that break into farms and destroy gardens, costing hundreds of dollars in damage or lost revenue. That can be the difference in how the family living on a farm lives that winter. Is it going to cause somebody to actually die? No. But it is hardly something to shrug at.
Can deer effectively live in higher numbers without a large impact on human lives? Probably. But the way the system works now is more than effective in saving human lives. It could actually probably be argued somewhat effectively that deer populations could be reduced even further, but that's a debate for a whole new topic.
For people who live on farms, firearms are almost a necessity. Protecting live stock from predators like wolves, coyotes, raccoon, foxes, and so on is something that you need a rifle for. Traps only work so well, and it is getting to the point where these animals have figured out ways to avoid the majority of them.
For people who live in rural areas where only one or two police officers are available for over 1,800 square miles, firearms are pretty darn close to needed. Either to protect livestock, or in case something crime related actually happened. For many people living in cities, police response is only a phone call and 5 minute wait away. For others, a phone call and a 30 or 45 or even hour long wait is the norm.
For people who count on hunting to make their lives a whole lot easier in winter (basically, seasonal workers who are laid off in winter and hunt for deer to provide food for themselves and family while they do not work - this is something that does actually happen, especially in smaller towns), firearms make their lives a lot easier vs hunting with a bow.
Now, you can read all that and call bullshit or that guns aren't needed, or that getting rid of all firearms would do more good than what it would harm the above people, but to be honest there are good reasons to own firearms beyond the typical hobby/enthusiast argument that many throw around.
Keeping deer populations in reasonable numbers does save human lives.
Even in areas that I have lived in, with avid hunting populations and hundreds of deer killed every hunting season, there are still dozens of car accidents every year involving deer. They are not smart, they do not avoid roads, and they can seriously damage a vehicle and kill somebody in many cases. Going 65mph on a highway at night with a deer sprinting out of the trees 20 feet away, up through the ditch and out onto the road not only can total a car but can also kill anybody and everybody in the vehicle if/when the deer flies up through the windshield and into the actual seating area.
Not to mention the amount of deer that break into farms and destroy gardens, costing hundreds of dollars in damage or lost revenue. That can be the difference in how the family living on a farm lives that winter. Is it going to cause somebody to actually die? No. But it is hardly something to shrug at.
Can deer effectively live in higher numbers without a large impact on human lives? Probably. But the way the system works now is more than effective in saving human lives. It could actually probably be argued somewhat effectively that deer populations could be reduced even further, but that's a debate for a whole new topic.
LegendofLex
Member
That's not totally correct. Almost every discussion I've had with people who are against gun control has been based on slippery slope mentalities. "If we enact restrictions, who's to say they won't take away more of our liberties over time?" There's deep fear and mistrust of gun control among those who participate in these debates who aren't actually advocating for better gun control.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I think eventually, with better education, it will change in time. Or at least that's my personal experience. I was raised in a staunch republican household. I grew up hating democrats because, in part, "they want to take away our guns" was a common mantra around the household. Needless to say guns were part of my life. Mostly for hunting, but I took up competitive shooting and target shooting as a hobby. However even being raised in that environment I now vote for democrats and am in support for gun control. I don't necessarily think guns should be outright banned, but I understand why others feel that way so I can't really say they're wrong. If it came down to it I would surrender my guns.
Many of my cousins who grew up in very similar environments are also now democratic voters who support control. We all still enjoy shooting, but it's not a big enough part of our life to fight tooth-and-nail for like it was for some of our parents. My cousins and I also happen to be the first generation in our family to acquire post-secondary education, and I believe it to be a source for a lot of our more liberal attitudes about the world. Also as we've become more left leaning, our parents, the once radical gun-nuts, have began to be pulled over as well. They now scoff at fox news as much as we do. And they've become a lot less vehemently against gun control or democrats in general. I actually think my own father is beginning to come around to supporting it.
CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls
Banned
My wife's family are big into hunting so I'm around a lot of guns. I trust them because I know them and I know how responsible they are. I'm all for more regulation and more substantial mental health checks, but banning guns outright is impossible in this country.
Of course Japan's rate of shooting deaths is going to be low with the elimination of guns, but I wish people would look beyond just guns and look more at the big picture. There's more than laws keeping that rate down. Japanese police departments have almost a 98% close rate for homicide cases and the culture is more opposed to violence overall post-WWII. There's also the growth of affluence without the accompanying concentrations of poverty common in many highly developed countries, and the stigma of arrest for almost any crime in Japanese society.
Gun control laws are only a piece of the puzzle here.
Limited Edition
Banned
Just because someone else abuses their rights, doesn't mean mine should be taken away.
All of those issues that you mentioned could be addressed with special licenses even if very strong laws exist. Australia has this covered for instance: http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=34468
Vincent Grayson
Member
I think those are all pretty reasonable arguments for a decent rifle or a shotgun.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Just to make a point.
If some guy turned to me in a movie theater and said 'don't worry, if some guy comes in here and starts shooting the place up. I'm packing.' I'm now afraid of that guy.
My mom told me that our neighbor who is gun, military etc. obsessed. Apparently open carries while mowing the lawn. I don't feel safe that he'd protect my mom during some kind of home invasion. I'm worried about that kid doing something.
Maybe they make you guys feel safer, but I certainly don't. Especially while in public.
If some guy turned to me in a movie theater and said 'don't worry, if some guy comes in here and starts shooting the place up. I'm packing.' I'm now afraid of that guy.
My mom told me that our neighbor who is gun, military etc. obsessed. Apparently open carries while mowing the lawn. I don't feel safe that he'd protect my mom during some kind of home invasion. I'm worried about that kid doing something.
Maybe they make you guys feel safer, but I certainly don't. Especially while in public.
JordanN
Banned
Neighbor: There's a mosquito on your shoulder! Here, let me kill it for you!
*pulls out gun*
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Like what would happen if I walked over and asked him to please not carry it around outside...
Shuggananas
Banned
Gotta regulate the moskito population
But it kind of does. This is the reason we have laws. The reason you can't buy a bottle of beer and walk around drinking it is because there are people that won't be able to control themselves if that were an option. We also have speed limits. I'm sure we could all drive a safe speed By default, but the few guys that want to go way faster would ruin it for the rest of us by causing accidents.
Mass Effect
Member
It's one of the strangest conundrums of the Right. They demand unwavering support for the military, but we need guns to defend against said military in case they go rogue? Doesn't make any sense at all, but then again what does with the Right? Many of their policies/beliefs are contradictory like this.
Also, I don't believe many in the military would even turn on citizens. They'd probably rebel against the government along with civilians in such a situation.
Metalingus5150
Member
It's not as simple as just implementing more gun control.
I'm a gun owner, and legally carry a concealed firearm daily.
"Gun Control" is such an incredibly vague term. Am I against background checks, or people on terrorist watch lists not being able to buy guns, or no-fly people? Absolutely not.
Am I against someone telling me that I shouldn't own a weapon to protect myself and family, because someone else use theirs to kill people? Absolutely. I hope I never, ever, have to use my firearm against someone else. It's a disgusting thought, But it's much more horrible to think about one being used on me or my family because I didn't.
As a side note: People say "Why aren't these shooters ever taken down by a citizen with a CCW permit?" Look at the targets. They aren't going after places with armed guards or resistance, they go after soft targets in No Gun Zones. The fact that someone has a CCW permit means they're law abiding, so they leave their pistol locked in their car or at home when going to one of these places, making them unable to do anything about the situation if the opportunity arises.
"Gun Control" is such an incredibly vague term. Am I against background checks, or people on terrorist watch lists not being able to buy guns, or no-fly people? Absolutely not.
Am I against someone telling me that I shouldn't own a weapon to protect myself and family, because someone else use theirs to kill people? Absolutely. I hope I never, ever, have to use my firearm against someone else. It's a disgusting thought, But it's much more horrible to think about one being used on me or my family because I didn't.
As a side note: People say "Why aren't these shooters ever taken down by a citizen with a CCW permit?" Look at the targets. They aren't going after places with armed guards or resistance, they go after soft targets in No Gun Zones. The fact that someone has a CCW permit means they're law abiding, so they leave their pistol locked in their car or at home when going to one of these places, making them unable to do anything about the situation if the opportunity arises.
shinobi602
Member
I own a gun and I'm up for some super strict gun control (not ban) in this country, wouldn't bother me.
I don't think there's a reasonable argument against it.
I don't think there's a reasonable argument against it.
But couldn't we start there and see where it gets us?
TheTurboFD
Member
Well to be fair, how many reports of concealed carry deaths have there been in these mass shootings? I mean if no one was concealed carrying during these shootings then your argument is invalid. You can't disregard the argument when there wasn't anyone with a weapon during the events.
Shuggananas
Banned
That's bullshit.
Shooter kills 10. Hero with a concealed weapon stops the dude by killing him.
11 people have died.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Then what's the point?
MultiCore
Member
You might actually be arguing for less restrictions on people carrying.
thelatestmodel
Junior, please.
And done. It's the only argument you can make.
Chalk me up as another licensed gun owner who supports gun control.
The frustrating thing is that living in one of the strictest gun control states in the country (CT), I had to attend a class, qualify via live fire at a shooting range, provide references in my home town, and submit lots of paperwork to obtain my license, and guess what, I was fine with it. Why? Because I enjoy shooting for sport, I like the idea of another form of protection at home, and I like that I have the ability to carry concealed if I feel the need.
It's unfortunate that there's a mentality that you can walk into a wal-mart anywhere in the US and buy an 'assault rifle.' It's also unfortunate that in some states, it's much too easy to purchase a gun. I hate having to defend myself as a gun owner or hide the fact that I enjoy target shooting. I also hate having to scroll through facebook/cnn/etc and listen to the NRA and its supporters call for less restriction on guns.
It's a frustrating conversation and a really, really difficult problem. Like so many of these issues, there's an answer in the middle, but we're just not willing to give on either side to get there.
The frustrating thing is that living in one of the strictest gun control states in the country (CT), I had to attend a class, qualify via live fire at a shooting range, provide references in my home town, and submit lots of paperwork to obtain my license, and guess what, I was fine with it. Why? Because I enjoy shooting for sport, I like the idea of another form of protection at home, and I like that I have the ability to carry concealed if I feel the need.
It's unfortunate that there's a mentality that you can walk into a wal-mart anywhere in the US and buy an 'assault rifle.' It's also unfortunate that in some states, it's much too easy to purchase a gun. I hate having to defend myself as a gun owner or hide the fact that I enjoy target shooting. I also hate having to scroll through facebook/cnn/etc and listen to the NRA and its supporters call for less restriction on guns.
It's a frustrating conversation and a really, really difficult problem. Like so many of these issues, there's an answer in the middle, but we're just not willing to give on either side to get there.
Gravy Boat
Member
There was that one woman who almost stopped those shoplifters that time.
Vincent Grayson
Member
The (IMO) biggest issue with carrying, be it open or concealed, is that I, as your average person, cannot determine whether a gun I spot is the gun of a law-abiding citizen, or someone waiting to open fire on a crowd.
In terms of simple self-preservation, I would much prefer to *know* when I see a gun (other than in the hands of military/police), that it's time to get the fuck out of wherever I am. And the more these mass shootings happen in public places, the more I feel that way.
The 99% of places that allow them or do not expressly forbid them?
Yeah, my wife's family are that way too. I grew up around lots of hunting and guns. Used to hunt also but mainly bow hunting. I'm all for stricter regulation though. There should be tighter national restrictions other than the patchwork laws we have now where it's tougher in one state and you can just cross state lines and get easier access in another.
PeskyToaster
Member
The root of it is that as of now, it is guaranteed that American citizens have the right to bear arms by the Constitution. Most people I talk to in my right-wing area support controls like background checks. I assume any gun control regulation would be argued similarly to 'yelling fire in a crowded theater' if it was challenged constitutionally.
ArkhamFantasy
Member
Repulicans and gun companies are smart and know how to use fear and ignorance to manipulate people.
Also depends on how the second amendment is interpreted. But ultimately, we could amend the constitution. Not sure what kind of tragedies would have to happen to unite that kind of support from the states, though.
I would also wager that a good number of those staunchly against any sort of gun regulation are also those that are happy to deny personal freedoms to any non-white, non-straight minorities.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
maybe it's time to stop viewing the constitution as this holy immutable text. if it's unconstitutional, then make it constitutional.
JordanN
Banned
Except when it comes to abortion. Or the PATRIOT Act. Or (before it was overturned), same sex marriage.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
The only real argument to be made here is that fucking with the 2nd amendment opens up possibilities for fucking with other amendments that should not be fucked with...you know like the first amendment?
Vault Dweller 111
Member
I guess...
In regard to the rest of the post. I get that you want to protect your family, but i'm sure people in other countries care about their families as well, and they don't have guns.
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