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[Vault Dweller 111]

I know Gaf is like 95% in favor of gun control. But pretend you are debating from the other side, arguments used against you, etc. and if there are some actual anti control dudes here, I definitely want to hear your thoughts.

So basically as I understand it, we have by far the most guns, we have by far the most gun deaths, and it is by far the easiest to obtain a gun in America.

But my Facebook feed is full of posts like 'drugs are illegal and it really NO ONE does drugs!'

'You'd be taking guns away from us good people, and you'd be defenseless from the bad guys who would still easily get guns'

Basically, it seems like people think it wouldn't make a difference if we had stricter gun laws. But there's an entire worlds worth of evidence that it would, right? Everywhere else has stricter gun laws and less deaths. I'm sensing a correlation....

Idiots on Facebook may post shit. But I'm assuming not everyone who is against gun control is stupid. Like, they have to debate this stuff in political forums right? So what are THOSE people saying? Give me the 'smart' version of the argument.

FWIW, I don't think you will ever March to every door in America and demand that people hand their guns over. And there are SO many firearms around, that we'd absolutely still lead in gun fatalities even if there was a mass gun purge. So if we did pass stricter laws, how do you propose we go about enforcing it? (But my original question is still the important one.)

 

[Majine]

"Fuck off, I like guns"

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

2nd amendment, bad guys will still get the gun, government conspiracies of them wanting to take the guns away to be more oppressive.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

2nd amendment, bad guys will still get the gun, government conspiracies of them wanting to take the guns away to be more oppressive.

This sounds like the 'dumb' argument.

 

[FloatOn]

it's basically people thinking their civil liberties are taken away if they are not allowed to own them in any capacity.

 

[Oppo]

their secret drones are no match against my bear arms!

(I am Canadian but that's what I gather)

 

[NoblesseOblige]

The answer probably depends on the level of control you're advocating for. Some mean outright ban when they use control, while others mean tougher restrictions. I know a lot of people who are for the latter but not necessarily the former.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

People like guns. It's basically that simple, I think. Some people think that there's a solution to gun violence that doesn't involve taking away a thing that they enjoy. Other reasons include a perception that having the gun keeps them safe from other people who would hurt them, and an attachment to constitutional rights.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

Mix:

- Racist, paranoid white people who think a black person or muslim will kick in their door at any time.
- Racist, paranoid white people who think the government is one small step away from turning into Soviet Russia.

That's not all of the people against gun control, but I dare say it's the overwhelming majority.

 

[cr_blah_blah]

What if the government rises up against us. You'll be thankful I shot all those beer cans when trained military personnel comes to take away your freedom.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

2nd amendment, bad guys will still get the gun, government conspiracies of them wanting to take the guns away to be more oppressive.

Pretty much. There is no alternative legitimate argument which is why the pro-gun people constantly try to deflect from talking about it. "It's too soon!" "It's about terrorism!" "It's about immigration!" "It's about mental health!"

 

[SuperBanana]

Because guns can stop bad people. Except all those thousands of mass shootings that have never been stopped by a gun owner...but they will! You'll see!!

 

[CrocMother]

State having a complete monopoly on violence is bad. That was the original philosophy, needs to be tweaked obviously for a modern context

 

[Skellig Gra]

If you are actually interested in a serious discussion, a lot of people love hunting and don't want more regulation for their favorite hobby.

 

[JoeNut]

Subbed before the arguments.

i am interested also, i can't understand how anyone can be 'pro' guns

 

[Shuggananas]

something something obama something something fema camps

Or something like that I think

 

[PBY]

If you are actually interested in a serious discussion, a lot of people love hunting and don't want more regulation for their favorite hobby.

Balance hobbyism against tragic, widespread shootings.

Thoughts on the value of that hobby versus the harms?

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

What if the government rises up against us. You'll be thankful I shot all those beer cans when trained military personnel comes to take away your freedom.

Serious question, is this a legitimate thought that people have? I hear it a lot but I never even classified it as a 'dumb' argument. It sounds downright trollish.

Like if the Military goes rogue we'll be able to fight them off because we have guns? Wat?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Serious question, is this a legitimate thought that people have? I hear it a lot but I never even classified it as a 'dumb' argument. It sounds downright trollish.

Like if the Military goes rogue we'll be able to fight them off because we have guns? Wat?

Yes, sadly it is. Because these wackjob militia groups think when the day comes that the government turns its back on us and sends the military after us they're coming with muskets.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

Serious question, is this a legitimate thought that people have? I hear it a lot but I never even classified it as a 'dumb' argument. It sounds downright trollish.

Like if the Military goes rogue we'll be able to fight them off because we have guns? Wat?

You should consume more right wing media. (No, you actually shouldn't, but the media fans the flames, reinforcing these delusions of grandeur.)

 

[Glass Shark]

"King Obama's Jade Helm stormtroopers are going to invade our towns and force us all to have abortions and pray to Allah and if we don't have guns we can't defend ourselves."

(Only slightly embellished.)

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

If you are actually interested in a serious discussion, a lot of people love hunting and don't want more regulation for their favorite hobby.

Well I enjoy marijuana. Since when has liking something led to it being allowed?

 

[rastahunden]

If you are actually interested in a serious discussion, a lot of people love hunting and don't want more regulation for their favorite hobby.

But here in Sweden we got strict gunlaws and still got hunters practising their hobby. So you probably dont have to worry about that

 

[DrArchon]

The most serious argument is probably the protection one. A lot of people think that they only way that they can keep themselves, their families, and their property safe is with a gun and if guns weren't allowed then all the bad guys would still have them but they wouldn't. Easily the most parroted argument from gun control opponents that doesn't sound 100% crazy like "Obama's gonna break down mah door and take mah freedoms!"

Granted this line of thinking shouldn't be used by all the people who don't want to ban assault weapons imo, but they use it all the same.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Balance hobbyism against tragic, widespread shootings.

Thoughts on the value of that hobby versus the harms?

If you step away from gun control in general, most people really only care what has an effect from them directly. Best example I can think of is how no one can ever raise taxes without a blood thirsty mob after them.

 

[Furyous]

I got you:

Obama is a communist and trying to take away guns from people because he's the antichrist.

Why punish hard working people for sins of others?

Someone needs to be able to fight the Muslim extremists when they try to invade America.

The thugs will still have guns and people have a right to defend themselves.

"If you take away all the predominantly black cities then honestly all of these gun deaths aren't that bad" <---- Someone said this to me and I hit them with the Heisman.

The media is painting gun owners in a false light like they're all terrorists but they're not.

All of this is conspiracy to take away guns and create a national database for the NSA with gun owners names and addresses.
---

I don't agree with ^^^^^^ any of this but this is what people say on facebook.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Well I enjoy marijuana. Since when has liking something led to it being allowed?

One could argue people liked alcohol enough that it were allowed, even though we attempted prohibition.

 

[andymcc]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=187594371&postcount=101

 

[Makonero]

The main one is that it's too late. Too many guns out there, and the fear that if you take guns away from the legit law abiding folk, then only criminals and the government will have guns. Two groups that conservatives can't abide.

It's just hard to see a solution at this point. I'm so tired of all these shootings, but nothing is changing. It's so sad.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Well I enjoy marijuana. Since when has liking something led to it being allowed?

Guns already are allowed, I don't understand your point.

But here in Sweden we got strict gunlaws and still got hunters practising their hobby. So you probably dont have to worry about that

I should clarify, I don't own any guns nor do I want any. But I have many friends and family who are hunting enthusiasts so this is the argument I hear a lot.

 

[subrock]

Imagine if you really loved cars and thought you were a great driver. You have a garage full of cars and you clean them and polish them and brag about them. You take the out on weekends and scream "yeeeehawwww" as you drive them around. You also have a special car ready to go at all times in a safe place in your house in case your wife or kids needs to go to the store real quick (this one is a special car, careful the kids don't drive it while you're out)

You have a perfect driving record and are super proud of how safe you are. Unrelated to you, every day somewhere in the country someone drives their car into a crowd of people and kills them. The government then says "we have to do something about all these cars on the road" and that terrifies you. What did you do wrong? You're safe and careful and thoughtful about your driving. Why should you be penalized for something that someone else did? You're afraid and outspoken about someone taking away your cars because the rhetoric makes it sound like they will. Your neighbour even says its because Obama wants to get rid of all cars so he and the army can have drag races up an down your empty streets when all the cars are gone.

 

[CrocMother]

Serious question, is this a legitimate thought that people have? I hear it a lot but I never even classified it as a 'dumb' argument. It sounds downright trollish.

Like if the Military goes rogue we'll be able to fight them off because we have guns? Wat?

It makes more sense if you understand the historical context in which the second amendment was written.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

One could argue people liked alcohol enough that it were allowed, even though we attempted prohibition.

Honestly going full prohibition on guns may produce the same type of effect....


I want control, but I don't see how it happens now matter what laws are passed. This shit is ingrained into our culture. I don't see ANY way to take it away. Unfortunately.

 

[esms]

Like many things, the issue is more nuanced than for or against, which is both a blessing and a curse.

 

[Glass Shark]

[stupid car analogy]

cars have a purpose other than killing tho

 

[Hari Seldon]

Everyone has an inherent right to self defense. Mass shootings are so statistically unlikely compared to a mugging, home invasion, or violent sexual assault.

 

[bengraven]

Take them away and people will feel vulnerable. No one likes to be vulnerable, so they lash out.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Imagine if you really loved cars and thought you were a great driver. You have a garage full of cars and you clean them and polish them and brag about them. You take the out on weekends and scream "yeeeehawwww" as you drive them around.

You have a perfect driving record and are super proud of how safe you are. Unrelated to you, every day somewhere in the country someone drives their car into a crowd of people and kills them. The government then says "we have to do something about all these cars on the road" and that terrifies you. What did you do wrong? You're safe and careful and thoughtful about your driving. Why should you be penalized for something that someone else did? You're afraid and outspoken about someone taking away your cars because the rhetoric makes it sound like they will. Your neighbour even says its because Obama wants to get rid of all cars so he and the army can have drag races up an down your empty streets when all the cars are gone.

I see the comparison but cars exist, and we put up with the downsides like drunk drivers and accidents, because they have a purpose, for travel and transportation. The sole purpose of guns is to kill. That's what they were created for. It'd be like if as a hobby I liked setting off grenades or starting fires. Mind you I would do this in a controlled, safe environment, but that's how I got my rocks off, I liked to see things blow up or burn.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=187594371&postcount=101

.....

Imagine if you really loved cars and thought you were a great driver. You have a garage full of cars and you clean them and polish them and brag about them. You take the out on weekends and scream "yeeeehawwww" as you drive them around.

You have a perfect driving record and are super proud of how safe you are. Unrelated to you, every day somewhere in the country someone drives their car into a crowd of people and kills them. The government then says "we have to do something about all these cars on the road" and that terrifies you. What did you do wrong? You're safe and careful and thoughtful about your driving. Why should you be penalized for something that someone else did? You're afraid and outspoken about someone taking away your cars because the rhetoric makes it sound like they will. Your neighbour even says its because Obama wants to get rid of all cars so he and the army can have drag races up an down your empty streets when all the cars are gone.

Best reasoning I've heard so far. Except for that last part. But I think that was a joke.

But it still comes down to the fact that cars seems like a necessary evil, guns an unnecessary one. Like, what purpose do they have other than killing?

 

[Anoregon]

Everyone has an inherent right to self defense. Mass shootings are so statistically unlikely compared to a mugging, home invasion, or violent sexual assault.

It's too bad there are literally no other ways for a person to defend themselves other than firearms.

 

[johnny956]

Honestly going full prohibition on guns may produce the same type of effect....


I want control, but I don't see how it happens now matter what laws are passed. This shit is ingrained into our culture. I don't see ANY way to take it away. Unfortunately.

Until it's as easy to make guns as alcohol I don't see how they're comparable. If we did, it would take a while for gun related deaths to drop because not everyone will give them up and the black market eventually will dry up to the point it's just too expensive to buy them (like in Australia)

 

[PBY]

Imagine if you really loved cars and thought you were a great driver. You have a garage full of cars and you clean them and polish them and brag about them. You take the out on weekends and scream "yeeeehawwww" as you drive them around. You also have a special car ready to go at all times in a safe place in your house in case your wife or kids needs to go to the store real quick (this one is a special car, careful the kids don't drive it while you're out)

You have a perfect driving record and are super proud of how safe you are. Unrelated to you, every day somewhere in the country someone drives their car into a crowd of people and kills them. The government then says "we have to do something about all these cars on the road" and that terrifies you. What did you do wrong? You're safe and careful and thoughtful about your driving. Why should you be penalized for something that someone else did? You're afraid and outspoken about someone taking away your cars because the rhetoric makes it sound like they will. Your neighbour even says its because Obama wants to get rid of all cars so he and the army can have drag races up an down your empty streets when all the cars are gone.

If you only needed a car for fun, and no other useful purpose, then yeah, screw you give up your damn car.

 

[JordanN]

Everyone has an inherent right to self defense. Mass shootings are so statistically unlikely compared to a mugging, home invasion, or violent sexual assault.

Where's the right to own a nuclear bomb? Or Tanks?

 

[D'ultimate]

Bad people are killing others with guns, why affect the lives of law abiding citizens with any kind of inconvenience?!

Guns don't kill people. Idiots kill people.

How am I going to protect my family from someone trying to kill us with a gun if I don't have a gun..or two..or fifty?

 

[jorgeton]

If you are actually interested in a serious discussion, a lot of people love hunting and don't want more regulation for their favorite hobby.

But do you really need semi-automatic COD BLOPS military grade guns to hunt deer?

 

[jurgen]

Basically, it seems like people think it wouldn't make a difference if we had stricter gun laws. But there's an entire worlds worth of evidence that it would, right? Everywhere else has stricter gun laws and less deaths. I'm sensing a correlation....

I don't think that correlation is exclusively indicative of causation though. I think there are a lot of factors "everywhere else" (cultural, economical, population, etc) that play into things here just as much if not more than the strictness of gun laws. Gun control laws alone aren't going to solve anything.

I'm pretty liberal, but I'm also a realist. I hate seeing shit go down like we saw yesterday, but I also realize that part of this increasing weariness is because of the more connected world we live in and the 24-hour news cycle. We're just noticing it more. Pew put out a study back in October that shows gun violence is actually down 30% over the past 20 years. If you take out suicide by gun, the rate is actually down closer to 49%.

 

[cr_blah_blah]

Serious question, is this a legitimate thought that people have? I hear it a lot but I never even classified it as a 'dumb' argument. It sounds downright trollish.

Like if the Military goes rogue we'll be able to fight them off because we have guns? Wat?

From the Black Friday Gun Sales thread:

I'm proud, and proud to be an NRA member. Civilian gun ownership is the ultimate check on government, and the only one that protects all the others in the long run. I don't give a crap about sheep in other places willing to give up their human rights. Americans are not willing, thank God!


The Australian model will work great....after the civil war when all of us who value liberty and individual rights are dead. Then you can construct your violence free utopia.

There's plenty of more but it's the starting point.

 

[Anoregon]

From the Black Friday Gun Sales thread:



There's plenty of more but it's the starting point.

God damn that quote is like fucking onion-level satire. Fucking christ.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Everyone has an inherent right to self defense. Mass shootings are so statistically unlikely compared to a mugging, home invasion, or violent sexual assault.

If you want to bring up statistics, isn't it statistically more likely a gun in your home will be used to harm you or someone in your home than any invader?

 

[Scrooged]

I think there's a disconnect here, and most people are arguing against a total ban on guns, not better gun control.

It's basically a bunch of crosstalk. People on one side are literally saing "we need a ban on guns", and people on the other side are incensed at the notion of banning guns. Meanwhile, sensible gun control talk is drowned out by all of the noise.