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Can someone explain the anti gun control argument?

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I was interested in the OP's question, so I decided to actually go look for a pro-gun op-ed in an actual conservative source (rather than relying on a bunch of two-sentence NeoGAF posts, which no doubt represent the position of the other side as fairly and accurately as possible).

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/427905/mass-shootings-gun-control

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/427967/san-bernardino-shooting-guns-homicide-statistics

The second link in particular seems to be as strong an argument against gun control as you're likely to find:

There is actually no simple correlation between states’ homicide rates and their gun-ownership rates or gun laws. This has been shown numerous times, by different people, using different data sets. A year ago, I took state gun-ownership levels reported by the Washington Post (based on a Centers for Disease Control survey) and compared them with murder rates from the FBI: no correlation. The legal scholar Eugene Volokh has compared states’ gun laws (as rated by the anti-gun Brady Campaign) with their murder rates: no correlation. David Freddoso of the Washington Examiner, a former National Review reporter, failed to find a correlation even between gun ownership in a state and gun murders specifically, an approach that sets aside the issue of whether gun availability has an effect on non-gun crime. (Guns can deter unarmed criminals, for instance, and criminals without guns may simply switch to other weapons.)
Not only is there no correlation between gun ownership and overall homicide within a state, but there is a strong correlation between gun homicide and non-gun homicide — suggesting that they spring from similar causes, and that some states are simply more violent than others. A closer look at demographic and geographic patterns provides some clues as to why this is.


I'm not at all sure I buy it. I have no love for guns myself, and no real principled objection to gun control. I certainly hope that gun control works to reduce the homicide rate. But I would say that if you want stricter gun control, the second link here is the argument to beat, so to speak.

Anyway, there you go. An actual conservative's argument, if you want to read it.
 

Sanke__

Member
It's basically based on the premise of give them an inch and they will take a mile

People worried that more gun regulations will lead to outlawing guns completely

Also gun manufacturers want all the monies
 
do minorities overwhelmingly support gun control?

My rhetoric might be a little strong, but to answer your question: yes.

In a 2010 Pew Research poll, to the question "What do you think is more important – to protect the right of Americans to own guns, OR to control gun ownership?," black non-hispanics answered 66% for gun control, hispanics answered 75% for gun control, compared to white non-hispanics that answered 42% for gun control.
 

That's interesting if true and an eye opener. I doubt anyone is going to read it and will instead do some cheap imitations of nutters as is the usual here.

Edit: thank you for your rational reply.

It's useless since they base the whole thing off of the faulty premise that there is "no correlation between gun ownership and overall homicide within a state".
 

lednerg

Member
I was interested in the OP's question, so I decided to actually go look for a pro-gun op-ed in an actual conservative source (rather than relying on a bunch of two-sentence NeoGAF posts, which no doubt represent the position of the other side as fairly and accurately as possible).

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/427905/mass-shootings-gun-control

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/427967/san-bernardino-shooting-guns-homicide-statistics

The second link in particular seems to be as strong an argument against gun control as you're likely to find:

It's useless since they base the whole thing off of the faulty premise that there is "no correlation between gun ownership and overall homicide within a state".
 

Violet_0

Banned
My rhetoric might be a little strong, but to answer your question: yes.

In a 2010 Pew Research poll, to the question "What do you think is more important – to protect the right of Americans to own guns, OR to control gun ownership?," black non-hispanics answered 66% for gun control, hispanics answered 75% for gun control, compared to white non-hispanics that answered 42% for gun control.

thanks, I was just genuinely curious
 

jmdajr

Member
That's interesting if true and an eye opener. I doubt anyone is going to read it and will instead do some cheap imitations of nutters as is the usual here.

Edit: thank you for your rational reply.

Ok the laws don't work, but why? Anyone bothering to do research on that?
 
It's useless since they base the whole thing off of the faulty premise that there is "no correlation between gun ownership and overall homicide within a state".

Pitting the research in your Harvard link against the research used in the NRO link brings me into an area of statistical analysis that I don't really understand.

As I understand it, the NRO piece says there is no "simple" correlation between gun ownership and homicide (or gun homicide) across states, while the Harvard link says there is a correlation between gun ownership and homicide or (gun homicide) across states after controlling or adjusting for various factors. I take it that this is the key difference?

I suppose the conservative could argue that the simple data is more important and instructive than data "adjusted" by experts, or that the Harvard research did not control for all the relevant factors (like the North/South demographic factors discussed later in the article?), or maybe even that the Harvard data was deliberately controlled in such a way as to reach the desired conclusion. But maybe those arguments would just be obfuscation. I don't really understand the issues in statistical analysis involved here.
 

mnannola

Member
Imagine if you really loved cars and thought you were a great driver. You have a garage full of cars and you clean them and polish them and brag about them. You take the out on weekends and scream "yeeeehawwww" as you drive them around. You also have a special car ready to go at all times in a safe place in your house in case your wife or kids needs to go to the store real quick (this one is a special car, careful the kids don't drive it while you're out)

You have a perfect driving record and are super proud of how safe you are. Unrelated to you, every day somewhere in the country someone drives their car into a crowd of people and kills them. The government then says "we have to do something about all these cars on the road" and that terrifies you. What did you do wrong? You're safe and careful and thoughtful about your driving. Why should you be penalized for something that someone else did? You're afraid and outspoken about someone taking away your cars because the rhetoric makes it sound like they will. Your neighbour even says its because Obama wants to get rid of all cars so he and the army can have drag races up an down your empty streets when all the cars are gone.


This comparison will be perfect when self driving cars are forced onto people due to safety concerns. These exact same arguments will occur. You will have people that want to keep their cars and drive them, and then you will have people that want to ban any automobile that is not self driving due to the safety hazard they present.

Every time a drunk driver kills someone at 2 AM because they did not have a self driving car, the argument will be brought up again.

Very interesting.
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
Er, yeah. There's a huge difference (one being that Obama is an elected official, so he DOES represent the American, even if you don't like him or vote for him. Tough luck. The majority of Americans DID).

But also, do you know how many terrorist attacks on American soil there's been in the 10 years since 9/11 compared to normal gun-related deaths?
Gun-Murders-vs.gif


You really, truly don't see how one is a bigger issue than the other?

yay bar graphs, now whats the trend on those numbers and why not just go an even 15 years to 2000?? , and where is the damn data set???
 
I was interested in the OP's question, so I decided to actually go look for a pro-gun op-ed in an actual conservative source (rather than relying on a bunch of two-sentence NeoGAF posts, which no doubt represent the position of the other side as fairly and accurately as possible).

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/427905/mass-shootings-gun-control

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/427967/san-bernardino-shooting-guns-homicide-statistics

The second link in particular seems to be as strong an argument against gun control as you're likely to find:




I'm not at all sure I buy it. I have no love for guns myself, and no real principled objection to gun control. I certainly hope that gun control works to reduce the homicide rate. But I would say that if you want stricter gun control, the second link here is the argument to beat, so to speak.

Anyway, there you go. An actual conservative's argument, if you want to read it.


I call bullshit on their "no correlation". Remember, these are the same people who deny climate change and global warming are man made or that it exists at all.
 
I hate guns and im proud of Australias stance, but the bigger problem is the huge climate of fear that has been bred in America. Americans are scared of their shadow and are so terrified they feel they need protection which can get bent out of shape.
 

lednerg

Member
Pitting the research in your Harvard link against the research used in the NRO link brings me into an area of statistical analysis that I don't really understand.

As I understand it, the NRO piece says there is no "simple" correlation between gun ownership and homicide (or gun homicide) across states, while the Harvard link says there is a correlation between gun ownership and homicide or (gun homicide) across states after controlling or adjusting for various factors. I take it that this is the key difference?

I suppose the conservative could argue that the simple data is more important and instructive than data "adjusted" by experts, or that the Harvard research did not control for all the relevant factors (like the North/South demographic factors discussed later in the article?), or maybe even that the Harvard data was deliberately controlled in such a way as to reach the desired conclusion. But maybe those arguments would just be obfuscation. I don't really understand the issues in statistical analysis involved here.

Who has more at stake and would therefore be more likely to deliberately misinterpret the data, Harvard or National Review? I personally don't understand what Harvard would have to gain from doing so.
 

Violet_0

Banned
yay bar graphs, now whats the trend on those numbers and why not just go an even 15 years to 2000?? , and where is the damn data set???

alright, add 2,996 deaths from 9/11 and compare that to the almost 120,000 gun deaths. Tell us how much the graphs have changed??? ?
??
 
I call bullshit on their "no correlation". Remember, these are the same people who deny climate change and global warming are man made or that it exists at all.

Now this is simply the genetic fallacy. Lednerg's challenge was much better: he provided some actual research that contradicts the claim.

Who has more at stake and would therefore be more likely to deliberately misinterpret the data, Harvard or National Review? I personally don't understand what Harvard would have to gain from doing so.

Ideology is just as powerful a motivator as money. Indeed, I would argue that in this case Harvard has a very strong incentive to reach the conclusion that gun control works and that there is a state-level as well as national-level correlation between gun ownership and homicide.

Imagine if Harvard academics started publishing studies which concluded that there really is no such correlation, and that gun control is unlikely to reduce homicides in America. They would be harshly criticized by progressives (i.e. most people in academia). They would lose prestige and academic standing, or at least the department might. And that means losing money down the road, as people care less about Harvard, the perceived value of a Harvard degree, the perceived value of an academic journal published by Harvard, etc.

Not that I think Harvard is lying. Not at all. As you correctly point out, NRO has a similar powerful conservative incentive, both ideological and monetary, to reach a certain conclusion. My point is, if we're going to discount literally anyone with powerful incentives to reach predetermined conclusions, we'll be here all day.
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
alright, add 2,996 deaths from 9/11 and compare that to the almost 1,200,000 gun deaths. Tell us how much the graphs have changed??? ?
??

Thats why i asked about the trend, even with that huge bump from 9/11 the trend for people dying due to terrorism is trending downward for 15 years. Meaning it isn't reasonable to have an unrational fear measures to counteract terrorism that is trending downward.

Likewise if more people were getting killed by gun violence in say 00 - 05 then one would have to take into account that the overall trend is less gun violence over a 15 year period even with recent events added in. See how that doesn't change the trend much just like one bulk of victims from 9/11 doesn't change the total much.

That graph wont convey this about the data , every graph is trying to convey as much as it can about data. If the data bears out that gun violence is trending downward it should be considered if we are talking about gun control. Also the data should always be consulted with so many people making claims about the situation and what should be done. Listen to everyone carefully then check that against the data.

The year to year is up to the person getting the data but it is a nice round number so 2000 - 2015 is fine imho but it doesnt have to be, however since its already 14 years why not an even 15.
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
OK I see that I have already been quoted here, so I guess I will wade in. I recognize that Gaf OT is largely a statist forum, and as I am a radical anti-statist, I guess that will put me at the bottom of the dogpile. Fair enough.

My primary argument is not about hunting, shooting sports, or self-defense. I see that others make those arguments and I agree with them. The only place I would go one step further is that I would maintain that (proportional and justified) self-defense in an inviolable right that cannot be taken away by the state.

But the main argument I would make is that the civilian ownership of firearms is the only truly meaningful check on state power. Why do we want a monopoly on force in the hands of the state? States drift towards tyranny over time, and even well-designed state machinery can be taken over by those who are corrupt or just evil.

Would the ANC have been better off disarmed? The people in the Warsaw ghetto? The Viet Minh/Cong? All the people of Africa who had to sacrifice their lives against colonial oppression?

People all around the world have the right of self-determination, and the right to protect themselves. Those rights are not gifts from the state, they are inherent and inviolable. Most states do not recognize these rights, I acknowledge that and I think it is a terrible thing. I guess this makes some sense, especially in the west where most people have taken the Soma and are content to be cossetted and cooed by Uncle Sam or John Bull, while the elites and our corporate overlords run roughshod over the people of the world. Fuck That!

This worldview is the biggest problem in this debate, by far. Your crippling paranoia about a situation that will never occur shouldn't have any bearing on society's ability to pass measures aimed at protecting innocents from death by mass shooting. It's like saying speed limits shouldn't exist because one day you might end up in a Fast and the Furious movie.
 

Piggus

Member
The U.S.A has the 2nd largest army on earth and the most advanced. If they can regularly bomb and invade other countries, there's no way civilians on their own territory can stop them.

But I find this whole notion weird given the USA is a democracy. You vote your people in so how do you suddenly transform into a dictatorship? Even if Obama wanted to become supreme emperor tomorrow, he still has to deal with the other republican congress and it's obvious they don't like him or want to give him unlimited power.

The problem with this argument is you're treating the US military as a single entity that does whatever it is told. In reality is it's made up of individual people, most of them pro-second amendment. If hypothetically the government were to order the military to start seizing guns, how many of those soldiers do you think would be willing to participate, let alone use lethal force against the people they're supposed to be protecting. This argument in a way also works against the "gun are a check on power" argument.
 

Lombax

Banned
I hate guns and im proud of Australias stance, but the bigger problem is the huge climate of fear that has been bred in America. Americans are scared of their shadow and are so terrified they feel they need protection which can get bent out of shape.

You are absolutely correct on the fear aspect. All you need to do is watch a typical news cast here in the states it follows this formula:

- Scary story (national)
- Scary story (international)
- Scary story (one more of the above)
- Ad about pill
- Story to make you angry
- Feel good story
- Ad about pill
- Fluff to end on a happy note

This sums up our country nicely right now.

11745341_10207388253288794_2593862437438430532_n.jpg


Edit:

Also here is a good article on how to read / analyze the news regardless of source.
 

Jisgsaw

Member
Thats why i asked about the trend, even with that huge bump from 9/11 the trend for people dying due to terrorism is trending downward for 15 years. Meaning it isn't reasonable to have an unrational fear measures to counteract terrorism that is trending downward.

Likewise if more people were getting killed by gun violence in say 00 - 05 then one would have to take into account that the overall trend is less gun violence over a 15 year period even with recent events added in. See how that doesn't change the trend much just like one bulk of victims from 9/11 doesn't change the total much.

That graph wont convey this about the data , every graph is trying to convey as much as it can about data. If the data bears out that gun violence is trending downward it should be considered if we are talking about gun control. Also the data should always be consulted with so many people making claims about the situation and what should be done. Listen to everyone carefully then check that against the data.

The year to year is up to the person getting the data but it is a nice round number so 2000 - 2015 is fine imho but it doesnt have to be, however since its already 14 years why not an even 15.

If I'd want to defend this graph, I'd point out they took the first available yearly data after the event that triggered the surge of fear over terrorist attacks (as this graph is about terrorist attack potency and the fear they induce), ie. the year after 9/11, or 2002.

But I agree, a trend chart would be better.
 

purdobol

Member
This worldview is the biggest problem in this debate, by far. Your crippling paranoia about a situation that will never occur shouldn't have any bearing on society's ability to pass measures aimed at protecting innocents from death by mass shooting.

Only thing needed for mass riots of general population is economic crisis that hurts them. Then you have masses of angry people roaming the streets. And in that kind of crisis governments showed that they are unable to handle those situations well. I don't even think it's possible. It's not about paranoia or fighting the government per se. It's hard to justify no gun control when system works. But when it doesn't it's a different story.
So gun gun control - yes it's a good idea. Gun ban - err not so much.
 

NotBacon

Member
There is too much "I'll never give up muh guns!! Obama can pry them from my cold dead hands" going on, when in fact no one is advocating for completely taking guns away. Well at least from your average citizen.

The middle-ground gun discussion is getting drowned out by a sizable part of the population who thinks Obama is literally going to kick down their door and take their guns.
 
If you don't own a gun, your house will be broken into and you'll be on the receiving end of all the rape and pillaging. Cause we are all living in some distopian post apocalyptic world or something. Where society, and police don't exist, and we need to shower the NRA and gun manufacturers with shitton of money to feel "safe."

Also, without a gun, you'll be some dirty socialist-homosexual-Muslim-aethiest-vegan-commi that probably deserved being assaulted anyway.

I feel sorry for Americans who's sense patriotism, safety, and identity are hinged on their stupid guns.
 

MEsoJD

Banned
I'm in favor of gun control because of the statistics from other countries and that it would make it harder for the bad guys to acquire them on the black market due to surge in prices.
 

turtle553

Member
Because none of the possible proposed solutions would actually make any difference to someone motivated. A full 100% ban would, but will also never happen because of the 2nd Amendment. The 2nd Amendment will never get repealed because 75% of the states need to agree and the whole south and out west are deep red.

For specific issues:

1) For self-defense. The police are not obligated to protect you. You can call them and they may come in ten minutes or they may never come. Time matters. And as much as people joke here about a CCW holder not stopping crime or causing an old west shootout, it does happen often enough to matter. Not saying it outweighs accidents, but the majority of CCW holders are not mindless idiots who will kill someone at their first fender bender.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect-someone.html?_r=0

2) Hunting. A lot of people hunt not only for sport, but as a major food source for their families. People seem to be OK with a woodgrained hunting rifle, but freak out if they see a black plastic military type rifle. Hunting rifles are more powerful than most of the rifles used in mass shootings.

3) Shotguns. Almost nobody has a problem with shotguns. Even Joe Biden advocates using them for home protection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIuk3G9Xixc If rifles/handguns were outlawed, then any one who wants to kill someone could easily use a shotgun. These mass shooting are not taking place at a distance that a shotgun vs. a rifle would matter.

4) Handguns are the most common murder weapon, but everyone blames scary rifles when they are used in a small minority of crimes.

5) Unless all firearms are banned, criminals/murderers will move to the other options available (shotguns probably) and even with limited capacity would be able to shoot enough people. Targeting specifics weapons is feel good/do nothing legislation.

The only thing I can think of to help is to offer full immunity and psychological help to anybody that turns themselves in before they commit a shooting crime. Even if they illegally obtained weapons, they might have a moment of clarity and seek health before committing a heinous act. Might not stop everybody, but could help people and would have virtually no cost.
 

Jisgsaw

Member
Because none of the possible proposed solutions would actually make any difference to someone motivated. A full 100% ban would, but will also never happen because of the 2nd Amendment. The 2nd Amendment will never get repealed because 75% of the states need to agree and the whole south and out west are deep red.

For specific issues:

1) For self-defense. The police are not obligated to protect you. You can call them and they may come in ten minutes or they may never come. Time matters. And as much as people joke here about a CCW holder not stopping crime or causing an old west shootout, it does happen often enough to matter. Not saying it outweighs accidents, but the majority of CCW holders are not mindless idiots who will kill someone at their first fender bender.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect-someone.html?_r=0

2) Hunting. A lot of people hunt not only for sport, but as a major food source for their families. People seem to be OK with a woodgrained hunting rifle, but freak out if they see a black plastic military type rifle. Hunting rifles are more powerful than most of the rifles used in mass shootings.

3) Shotguns. Almost nobody has a problem with shotguns. Even Joe Biden advocates using them for home protection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIuk3G9Xixc If rifles/handguns were outlawed, then any one who wants to kill someone could easily use a shotgun. These mass shooting are not taking place at a distance that a shotgun vs. a rifle would matter.

4) Handguns are the most common murder weapon, but everyone blames scary rifles when they are used in a small minority of crimes.

5) Unless all firearms are banned, criminals/murderers will move to the other options available (shotguns probably) and even with limited capacity would be able to shoot enough people. Targeting specifics weapons is feel good/do nothing legislation.

The only thing I can think of to help is to offer full immunity and psychological help to anybody that turns themselves in before they commit a shooting crime. Even if they illegally obtained weapons, they might have a moment of clarity and seek health before committing a heinous act. Might not stop everybody, but could help people and would have virtually no cost.

The more motivated will still manage to get access to a firearm, yes.
That doesn't mean it wouldn't stop many of these shooters to actually get that motivated though. As show by every statstic from countries with gun control.

1) You say it yourself: if the crimes stopped through CCW don't outweight the crimes coming from loose gun control (and I doubt that), the argument is moot.

2) Gun control =/= gun ban. Hunting won't disapear.

3) A shotgun is a firearm; so should be treated like every firearm and be controlled.

4) same as 3)

5) same as 4) and 3)...
 
Imagine if Harvard academics started publishing studies which concluded that there really is no such correlation, and that gun control is unlikely to reduce homicides in America. They would be harshly criticized by progressives (i.e. most people in academia). They would lose prestige and academic standing, or at least the department might. And that means losing money down the road, as people care less about Harvard, the perceived value of a Harvard degree, the perceived value of an academic journal published by Harvard, etc.
That's a pretty unbelievable set of events. Harvard is not some progressive bastion that is run on partisan political money.
 
If you are actually interested in a serious discussion, a lot of people love hunting and don't want more regulation for their favorite hobby.

I hunt.

Hunting wouldn't be hurt by further regulation. Stricter testing, licensing and closing of gun show loopholes would not hurt hunters at all. Outright bans are another thing. The only group regulation hurts are the nutters who can't be bothered to change their clips after 5-10 rounds or don't like the hassle of using a bullet on a clip release button. Those people can fuck right off with the outright ban people though.
 

DasBeergut

Neo Member
no, the data selected seems to be of western style countries that have similar ideals and economic standings.

not to mention that whole "drug war" thing

Good thing the U.S.A. doesn't have a war on drugs that creates a underground economy of drugs, money, and violence...
 

Amir0x

Banned
OK I see that I have already been quoted here, so I guess I will wade in. I recognize that Gaf OT is largely a statist forum, and as I am a radical anti-statist, I guess that will put me at the bottom of the dogpile. Fair enough.

This is the deflection point to begin the argument. Right off the bat. Because being a statist or anti-statist may have tangential crossover with the gun control/anti-gun control set, but one could easily favor heavy gun control and be an anti-statist. As a result, this is a distraction that has no real merit for this argument. It is already an attempt to set terms. "Well I'm never going to win this argument because you guys believe X (even though "X" doesn't necessarily mean you believe "Y"), but I'll answer anyway so be easy..."

But the main argument I would make is that the civilian ownership of firearms is the only truly meaningful check on state power. Why do we want a monopoly on force in the hands of the state? States drift towards tyranny over time, and even well-designed state machinery can be taken over by those who are corrupt or just evil.

It's not a check at all. You will not win your fight against the united states government. And there is no risk at all of the United States government turning into a Civil War state in your life time. None. Now, you will say there is no way for I to know for sure, and you're right - technically. Just like I cannot say for sure that the Yosemite Super Volcano won't erupt tomorrow. It's just that statistically, it's so unlikely as to be comical to even consider it in an evaluation of how to judge day to day policy.

In short, you're a paranoid conspiracy theorist and at least borderline libertarian who has trouble distinguishing between real threats and fake ones.

Would the ANC have been better off disarmed? The people in the Warsaw ghetto? The Viet Minh/Cong? All the people of Africa who had to sacrifice their lives against colonial oppression?

Here's where you mention really horrible events that have no possibility of ever occurring in the United States in the next one hundred years save some sort of nuclear holocaust war that makes us all scavengers and hunters again (in which case, the last thing you'll have to worry about is the state having control of all the guns), and then expect us to go "oh snap he's right what IF we get a Hitler that tries to round up all the jews in a ghetto! They will need their guns!"

Of course, the people in the Warsaw Ghetto didn't have their guns because the state made it legal for jews to own guns. They had to carefully smuggle their guns in. And they lost anyway. Because they weren't going to win against the German government. Most of them all died.

It's an amazing, inspiring story. But not one element of it supports your argument. You just quoted it because it sounded nice. Like most of your argument, it's all kiddie pool deep.

People all around the world have the right of self-determination, and the right to protect themselves. Those rights are not gifts from the state, they are inherent and inviolable. Most states do not recognize these rights, I acknowledge that and I think it is a terrible thing. I guess this makes some sense, especially in the west where most people have taken the Soma and are content to be cossetted and cooed by Uncle Sam or John Bull, while the elites and our corporate overlords run roughshod over the people of the world. Fuck That!

Your right to "protect" yourself is not the same right as making the entire country immeasurably more dangerous because you want to jerk off to gun porn. Statistically, there is no debate - your gun does not make you safer, but far, far less safe. That's a fact. No argument you ever make can defeat those hard and cold statistics.

So just accept that your nearly fanatical desire for "individual liberty" in all cases means that you have to allow incredibly horrific things to happen so that you can rip out your checklist and smile when you realize that your nonsense ideology is being satisfied.
 

Future

Member
The more motivated will still manage to get access to a firearm, yes.
That doesn't mean it wouldn't stop many of these shooters to actually get that motivated though. As show by every statstic from countries with gun control.

1) You say it yourself: if the crimes stopped through CCW don't outweight the crimes coming from loose gun control (and I doubt that), the argument is moot.

2) Gun control =/= gun ban. Hunting won't disapear.

3) A shotgun is a firearm; so should be treated like every firearm and be controlled.

4) same as 3)

5) same as 4) and 3)...

If one person is saved by someone having a concealed weapon, then it is worth having. People that commit crimes using concealed weapons are criminals, and would find ways to commit the crime regardless of law

While gun control doesn't eliminate hunting, it provides unnecessary checks. People shouldn't have to put their names in the system to buy what is essentially a tool

Limiting access to certain guns is a waste of time. The scary guns don't need to be regulated, as people will use whatever gun they have access to commit a crime. Because they are criminals

Essentially, the lives of law abiding citizens should not be affected by people that break the law.
 

Cat

Member
It's not so much stupidity as alarming willful ignorance. A lot of people boil it down to "fuck you, I like guns" and assume gun control = gun banning without further exploring the complexities of what's actually happening past that, notably in public health, media, and legislation.
 

Moofers

Member
OP you asked and I will do my best to answer.

There is a middle ground that can be reached here. Bernie Sanders has the right of it. We need to talk and not just scream at each other about how wrong the other side is. But this is the internet, where snark and one-upmanship rules the day, so I guess I'll post this and keep my expectations low. God knows I've tried to have reasonable discussion about this on NeoGAF before and it has blown up in my face with all kinds of people calling me paranoid, stupid, etc. But here we go again.

-I am a gun owner.
-I am for more gun control.
-I am against an outright gun ban.

My thoughts on a complete ban:
I don't want an outright ban because I've seen what desperate people look like. You might think this is a joke, but look at some Black Friday videos. Not everyone is literally out there killing eachother for Tickle Me Elmos, but it has happened. Now with that in mind, consider what things might look like when climate change has taken hold. I have no faith in our government to change our course in time to prevent the worst from happening. I believe we may face severe drought or food shortages in our lifetime, and I hope I'm wrong, but if that happens, people will not hesitate to do shitty things to each other in order to obtain food/water. I don't want to be unable to defend my home or family when that time comes. Hell, it doesn't even have to be climate change. People riot over their football team winning or losing the championship.

That said, I don't need a full-auto rifle for that. A shotgun/handgun or even hunting rifle might be fine. I'd hope that any attempt to get into my home by a group of people would quickly be abandoned the moment one of them gets shot. If not, I'm probably done and no amount of full-auto is going to help me.

Full Auto/Assault Solution?
I'd propose a legal limit on how many rounds a magazine can hold. The military would obviously be an exception, otherwise I don't think I'd be against having magazine capacity caps.

Problem:
Capacity limits won't solve everything. There are tons of guns out there already, and I'd say maybe you could begin to enforce laws that require owners to adopt lower capacity magazines, but of course you may never get them all off the street. (magazines and weapons)

Solution?
Enact a buy-back program to entice people to turn in their large capacity magazine AND their assault-style weaponry. This will cost us tax money of course, but God knows we've pissed away money on worse things like foreign conflicts we don't need to be a part of. Again, I'm very aware this will not solve everything, but I believe it is one of many small campaigns we can begin that will reshape the gun culture and market in the country.

Popular argument:
We need a complete ban in order to recover all the weapons. Its the only way!

My thoughts on that:
A complete ban will not get every gun secured. There are many that people have inherited or been gifted over years and years. Even more that have been purchased privately with no paperwork and no documentation of ownership change. You can't collect what you don't know is out there. Then of course there is also the issue of illegal ownership among the criminal element. I think that's actually less of an issue than all the inherited/privately bought/gifted guns out there. The govt can speculate on what those numbers are, but how would you ever enforce it? You just can't. So why leave responsible owners without a legal way to defend themselves when there will always be an underground market and tons of undocumented guns anyway?

Popular argument:
Hunters want to be able to continue hunting.

My thoughts on that:
I actually think this is an important thing that should not be overlooked. I don't personally hunt, but I have lived in parts of the country where certain wildlife populations actually become a health risk for the general public. Hunting keeps this in check each year. If you live in an urban location it's probably hard to imagine this, but the rural Midwest is a great example of a place where car accidents involving deer are very common around specific times of the year. That's just one example to kind of make my point here, but there are others for different parts of the country involving different wildlife, and cars are not always the thing at risk.

Problem:
Guns are getting into the hands of the wrong people. Mentally unstable people, terrorist sympathizers, etc.

Solution?
Nation-wide waiting periods for purchases. Minimum of one-week, maybe more. I'm hardly the go-to source here, but I believe it starts here. There should be a real vetting process. Have us take tests of some kind? I don't know. But I do think a week for a background check (hell, maybe 2 I don't care) would be far better than the current system. Where I live, I bought two guns and each time I walked out of the store with both of them in under an hour. I find that unsettling. I want a deeper probe into anyone who wants to buy one. What do we have to lose there? Nothing, IMO.

When I got my driver's license, it was a big deal. They made me take a test to drive a car legally. I see no reason for us to not be taking the same precautions for weapon ownership.

Problem
Concealed carry needs to end. No more concealed carry!

My thoughts on that:
Anyone who wants to commit a mass shooting will likely just conceal their weapon anyway, regardless of a permit to do so. A piece of paper that gives you the right to have it isn't going to change your plans either way. Asshole killers will just keep their weapons in their waistband or under a jacket or in a bag or whatever. You can carry a gun around without anyone knowing. I think ordinary people carrying is fine. I dont do it myself, so its not something I've really thought long and hard about, but I think the bigger problem is making sure the gun isn't acquired in the first place. See my point just above. The permit doesn't matter once they have the gun.

You're crazy, we will never see shortages/armageddon/etc
Say that all you want, but I know people who lived through the LA Riots. Have you ever been in a situation like that? I'm on the West Coast. We may see an earthquake that could devastate the area and potentially cut off supplies from certain places for weeks. The local police may be completely overwhelmed with emergency calls. Who will be watching your back in that time? You and your loved ones. That's all you've got to count on. These things may or may not happen in my city in my lifetime, but I'm not willing to gamble on it. Me having a couple of guns stored in my home is not hurting anyone and I'm happy to have them in the event of the most serious emergencies. Nobody knows what tomorrow may bring, so please resist the urge to call me some tinfoil hat wearing nut from "doomsday preppers" and humble yourself enough to realize that something completely unexpected could happen when you least expect it.

You'll never defend your freedoms against the government:
Probably not. I'm not fit to go up against a military unit that thinks they're on the right side of a conflict with the government's people. I'd need to be in a well organized and maintained militia, which is something the country does not have right now. I believe we SHOULD have them, but I don't know that the right people would step up to lead them. We have too many extreme Fox News viewers who would jump at the chance to start a militia so they could "take Obama head on!" which I find ludicrous. I don't agree with the TPP and I believe he's a corporatist, but the people who talk about removing him by force are insane. I don't believe we are at that point yet. Maybe if Feurer Trump were to take hold, we'd be in some real trouble, but I don't know. That's all mostly hypothetical shit that I don't really think about because I think its so unlikely. The media has effectively played its role over my lifetime in getting us focused on the wrong things while the super rich have gained an absolute stranglehold on the world. I don't know if that can really change at this point, barring worldwide events of some kind. I'm more of a "keep my head down and watch my back" kind of guy than some kind of patriot warrior. I don't even know if a real militia could even effectively combat our own government at this point. It'd probably be pretty one-sided, but I'm no military strategist.

Closing thoughts:
The USA won its independence with firearms. Hunting was an essential part of life for many citizens then. Different times from now, certainly, but the seeds were planted. The idea that a man can defend his home and his family or secure his freedom with a firearm is something that began with the birth of our nation. Not everyone feels the need to take advantage of our rights for that and that's fine. However, I don't know that we are at a point in worldwide civilization where everyone would be comfortable with giving up the right to do that for themselves. We'd need to live in a Star Trek (TNG of course) society that is vastly different from the "fuck you, got mine" sort of place we live in now in order for people to feel like they no longer need to have a way to defend their homes and families.

Thanks for reading. If you disagree, please do your best to avoid typing up a snarktacular response. The internet has met its quota on those.
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
Mexico's 15 year drug war discredits it from being a developed country to be compared.

...yeah that can be an asterix in the data set is there a constant state of emergency going on in all of mexico now? and what are the gun ownership rights there , is the poplulace legally able to arm themselves or not?
 

Jisgsaw

Member
If one person is saved by someone having a concealed weapon, then it is worth having. People that commit crimes using concealed weapons are criminals, and would find ways to commit the crime regardless of law

If there are 100 persons killed because of the same laws that allow for CCW, I'd consider that a very bad treadof.
But hard too prove, I concede that.

While gun control doesn't eliminate hunting, it provides unnecessary checks. People shouldn't have to put their names in the system to buy what is essentially a tool

And yet I don't see people complaining they need to register and have a permit to drive a car or a truck (even regular checks for the latter).
When your tool is dangerous, some regulation really isn't that far fetched.

Limiting access to certain guns is a waste of time. The scary guns don't need to be regulated, as people will use whatever gun they have access to commit a crime. Because they are criminals

Limiting speed in urban areas is a waste of time, as there'll always be some people to drive faster.

Also, I explicitely said to control all guns. Be it for the simple reason that one (until now most used) starts to get controlled but not others, criminals will just switch to the less controlled ones.

Essentially, the lives of law abiding citizens should not be affected by people that break the law.

The road rules are a good counterexemple.
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
Well, already answered, but: not really comparable.
Social inequalities, crime rate and median wellfare of the country will of course have a high (maybe even higher) impact than gun control.

Well Brazil is better of than Mexico and is hosting the Olympics next year where are they at on the graph per million, i think they approach those numbers per hundred thousand. This is why you ask for data sets.
 

Jisgsaw

Member
Well Brazil is better of than Mexico and is hosting the Olympics next year where are they at on the graph per million, i think they approach those numbers per hundred thousand. This is why you ask for data sets.

I'm no expert, but I'm not really sure Brazil is that much better off than Mexico.
Especially not the slums around big cities, which from what I understood from brazilian friends are a bit of a no law zone.
Which is why, like for the world cup, the government will try to keep tourists as far away of slums as possible.
 
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