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[benicillin]

I can't help but see this discussion and the way it is systematically shut down as part of a larger symptom of society telling men to shut the fuck up about their issues.

The only thing stopping men from having the discussion is other men. Feminists aren't stopping men from talking about suicide and other men's issues - fucked up and twisted views on masculinity and "what makes a man", how men aren't supposed to discuss their mental health or emotions, etc. are.

 

[radios shipping overview]

As someone who lost two friends to suicide as young men I can't help but see this discussion and the way it is systematically shut down as part of a larger symptom of society telling men to shut the fuck up about their issues.

The Red Pill and related schools of thought are misogynistic, disingenuous, and not constructive to men's issues as a whole.

I'm sure a thread about actual men's issues (being forced to suppress emotions, lacking emotional support, losing friends as they age out of adolescence, among many other things) would be welcomed with positivity and sympathy around here.

 

[Griss]

blame the idiots leading the cause, not society at large.

if these young men could organize and lobby for their issues without being violently toxic about it, they wouldn't be immediately dismissed by people with half a brain

It sounds like this documentary is exactly what you've bolded, yet that does not seem to have affected your reaction to it one big. Consider that. Are you willing to give the discussion of men's rights a fair shake, honestly? It doesn't sound as if you would be.

The Red Pill and related schools of thought are misogynistic, disingenuous, and not constructive to men's issues as a whole.

I'm sure a thread about actual men's issues (being forced to suppress emotions, lacking emotional support, losing friends as they age out of adolescence, among many other things) would be welcomed with positivity and sympathy around here.

Those issues would be welcomed because they're the feminist perspective on men's issues. What about a discussion of the issues apparently presented in the documentary? Custody cases and parenthood, life expectancy, mortality, treatment by the criminal justice system? Those are issues these men seem to want to discuss. It's not the feminism-sactioned list. Is it acceptable?

 

[Night Angel]

Toxic feminists and MRAs exist, as do reasonable ones of both. This documentary seems to have taken from the former for feminists and the latter for MRAs.

Anyone immediately dismissive of either viewpoint is an idiot. Anyone dismissive of the crazy version of either is fine in my book.

The Red Pill and related schools of thought are misogynistic, disingenuous, and not constructive to men's issues as a whole.

I'm sure a thread about actual men's issues (being forced to suppress emotions, lacking emotional support, losing friends as they age out of adolescence, among many other things) would be welcomed with positivity and sympathy around here.

I'm not so sure. I'm remembering the awful responses to the thread about how white America was facing a suicide/opiates epidemic... yeah. Some "empathetic" folks around here can be pretty nasty.

 

[gforguava]

But yeah, the name is probably a mistake.

The name is not a mistake, the documentary was funded by these very people. The doc is propaganda to sanitize their image. "Oh look, this award winning* female documentarian has created the only fair view of the MRA movement. See, they aren't so bad, they want equality too**."

*not really.
**not really.

 

[jon bones]

It sounds like this documentary is exactly what you've bolded, yet that does not seem to have affected your reaction to it one big. Consider that. Are you willing to give the discussion of men's rights a fair shake, honestly? It doesn't sound as if you would be.

this documentary is not what i've bolded - it's a fluff PR piece to make rape apologists look good and feminists look crazy

 

[Darryl M R]

So people in this thread are reporting that this is just propaganda to clean MRA's namesake? How sad.

I think it is humorous whenever I see someone say "You are trying to shout down men." When it is men in power dictating the health procedures women can go through. When it is men in power telling other men that they are weak and emotional if they talk about their problems. And it's men recruiting and grooming boys to think that women deserve sexual assault. Don't sprinkle your bs "Well it is more about negative health outcome" when MRA has made a name for itself by being the worst of society.

 

[Griss]

this documentary is not what i've bolded - it's a fluff PR piece to make rape apologists look good and feminists look crazy

Without having seen it I can't really comment, but where does the rape apologist stuff even come from? Is that honestly part of this movie?

It would drive me fucking bonkers if rape-apologising is now in some way tied up with the discussion of the areas in which men are the disadvantaged gender.

As an aside and as context, I work in law and spent my early career in and out of courts in a female dominated work environment, and it was very clear to me that men are treated differently by the criminal and family courts in particular, and yet this was absolutely accepted as normal and talking about it was a faux pas.

 

[Corpekata]

It sounds like this documentary is exactly what you've bolded, yet that does not seem to have affected your reaction to it one big. Consider that. Are you willing to give the discussion of men's rights a fair shake, honestly? It doesn't sound as if you would be.

It really isn't. As others have pointed out, this documentary is, among other things funded by the likes of Mike Cernovich. Y'know, the Pizzagate guy. And features Paul Elam, known for saying things like "Should I be called to sit on a jury for a rape trial, I vow publicly to vote not guilty, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the charges are true."

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

I haven't really encountered/read up on what MRAs believe totally believe, or more so, how they act. I can imagine though they are are very spiteful. I've never been involved in the legal system in terms of how it treats men, but I've heard the horror stories.

I've also heard the horror stories of how the system can treat women. See: Brock Turner.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

The first third of the documentary deals with MRA activists and the issues they want to focus on. Things like the higher mortality of men in their traditional roles, higher suicide rate, worse treatment in custody cases and domestic violence.

Redundancy aside, there is a tiny contingent of men's rights activists who seriously want to focus on those issues you listed. They list those issues as their focus because they are legitimate issues. However in reality they don't focus on those at all and instead spend their time attacking other activists trying to elevate the rights of women. More feminists are working honestly to benefit the rights of men than MRAs by the simple fact that many stereotypes that negatively affect women also have negative affects on men. For example...

Women are seen as fragile and deserving of protection. This means men are seen as strong protectors who are put into positions of greater risk.

Women are seen as belonging in the household leaving men to be the financial provider. When a man fails to succeed in this regard there's an increase probability of depression, and thus suicide.

Women are seen as natural caregivers causing preferential treatment for them in custody battles. Inversely this means men to be more often on the losing end.

But instead of agreeing with these points MRA want to sit around and bitch about things like 'the pussy pass' and align themselves with bigots and sexists.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Those issues would be welcomed because they're the feminist perspective on men's issues. What about a discussion of the issues apparently presented in the documentary? Custody cases and parenthood, life expectancy, mortality, treatment by the criminal justice system? Those are issues these men seem to want to discuss. It's not the feminism-sactioned list. Is it acceptable?

It's not up to me or any authority to decide whether those issues are acceptable to discuss. Start a thread on them and see if people want to talk about them.

 

[TyphoonStruggle]

this documentary is not what i've bolded - it's a fluff PR piece to make rape apologists look good and feminists look crazy

I did not know that Cassie Jaye was a rape apologist. You're sure doing yourself a lot of favors here.

 

[4 is a cutie]

It would drive me fucking bonkers if rape-apologising is now in some way tied up with the discussion of the areas in which men are the disadvantaged gender.

You should really do yourself a favor and visit that subreddit if you want to know why "mens rights activists" are looked down upon

 

[BrutishMrFish]

Toxic feminists and MRAs exist, as do reasonable ones of both. This documentary seems to have taken from the former for feminists and the latter for MRAs.

Anyone immediately dismissive of either viewpoint is an idiot. Anyone dismissive of the crazy version of either is fine in my book.

That's some bullshit.

This documentary is the equivalent of showing some "moderate" neo-nazis next to some toxic members of BLM. One group is mostly made up of shitty individuals, the other is not. Treating both groups like they have the same number of shitty people is disingenuous as hell.

I did not know that Cassie Jaye was a rape apologist. You're sure doing yourself a lot of favors here.

Paul Elam is. Read the thread first.

 

[pastrami]

I did not know that Cassie Jaye was a rape apologist. You're sure doing yourself a lot of favors here.

That's not what he said though.

 

[Darryl M R]

Are people pretending that they do not have any context of what MRA is all about or do you all normally just jump onto swords?

 

[benicillin]

The people who think this documentary is about actual discussions about problems facing men are the same people who loudly complain and ask why there's no international men's day even though there is. Men's rights only exist as a way to denigrate feminism and pose it as some weird bogeyman, but they don't actually give a shit.

 

[Corpekata]

I did not know that Cassie Jaye was a rape apologist. You're sure doing yourself a lot of favors here.

I imagine he is talking about the subjects of the film, which include people who say things like "Should I be called to sit on a jury for a rape trial, I vow publicly to vote not guilty, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the charges are true."

And also funded the movie.

 

[Fuchsdh]

There are plenty of men's rights campaigners who aren't crazy /r/redpillers, just as the BlackLivesMatters people who want to kill the crackers and the women who want to enslave the men exist in the civil rights and feminist communities. If you get enough of a population of any group you can edit them however you want.

People sometimes forget that a documentary doesn't ever have to actually lie to offer a completely distorted view of reality.

At this point, I think you're hosed if you call yourself an MRA, because it's become a trigger phrase the same way SJW is—people are going to think you're one of those Reddit guys who tries to attract women with a seduction book and harass feminists online.

 

[Griss]

It really isn't. As others have pointed out, this documentary is, among other things funded by the likes of Mike Cernovich. Y'know, the Pizzagate guy. And features Paul Elam, known for saying things like "Should I be called to sit on a jury for a rape trial, I vow publicly to vote not guilty, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the charges are true."

I find it hard to talk about this stuff on GAF sometimes since I stick to gaming mostly and then when I come here it's like it's expected that you know everything that the 'collective unconscious' here knows, like what Pizzagate is. To me, Pizzagate is when Arsenal played Man Utd that one time and pizza was thrown at Wenger. Not your fault, obviously!

Anyway, that guy Cernovich sounds like scum going by the quote posted. If he's behind this, I can see why you'd be wary of it. That said, I'd still listen to what the guys have to say with an open mind. I mean, either the doc has these dudes saying rape apologist and misogynist things or it doesn't. Either they're making good points back with evidence or they're not.

 

[ebullientprism]

It really isn't. As others have pointed out, this documentary is, among other things funded by the likes of Mike Cernovich. Y'know, the Pizzagate guy. And features Paul Elam, known for saying things like "Should I be called to sit on a jury for a rape trial, I vow publicly to vote not guilty, even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the charges are true."

Yep, IMDB checks this information out.

It does indeed seem more and more like a PR fluff piece for the Red Pillers.

 

[Count Dookkake]

I know Cassie. She is a bright young woman. Glad to see her getting some recognition.

I haven't watched this flick yet, so I can't comment beyond that.

 

[Pau]

There are discussions to be had about men's issues, masculinity, etc. but a lot of those discussions (including this documentary it seems) are framed as counterpoints to feminism instead of supporting facets.

You see it on GAF all the time. A thread will be made about a specific issue and almost no one posts. Surprisingly (not really) a lot of the posts or even the OP are from our resident feminists.

So yes, in my experience, these things are only brought up to deflect from women's issues or as a sort of "gotcha". It comes off as insincere.

Academically it's a different space. Masculinity studies are a thing but I rarely see the intersection between them and MRA.

 

[Night Angel]

That's some bullshit.

This documentary is the equivalent of showing some "moderate" neo-nazis next to some toxic members of BLM. One group is mostly made up of shitty individuals, the other is not.



Paul Elam is. Read the thread first.

I don't think you understood my post. You are agreeing with me. This documentary is taking disproportionate samples and skewing perception of both movements.

Which is not to say that MRAs don't still present legitimate issues. Dismissing the entirety of their views due to toxic, shitty people would be the same mistake they make when dismissing feminism.

 

[jon bones]

I find it hard to talk about this stuff on GAF sometimes since I stick to gaming mostly and then when I come here it's like it's expected that you know everything that the 'collective unconscious' here knows, like what Pizzagate is. To me, Pizzagate is when Arsenal played Man Utd that one time and pizza was thrown at Wenger. Not your fault, obviously!

Anyway, that guy Cernovich sounds like scum going by the quote posted. If he's behind this, I can see why you'd be wary of it. That said, I'd still listen to what the guys have to say with an open mind. I mean, either the doc has these dudes saying rape apologist and misogynist things or it doesn't. Either they're making good points back with evidence or they're not.

why would a documentary provide any other view point other than the one it wants you to have?

here i'll save you the time from imdb: Michael Cernovich ... associate producer (as Mike Cernovich)

here:

we done here?

 

[Darryl M R]

I don't think you understood my post. You are agreeing with me.

Which is not to say that MRAs still present legitimate issues. Dismissing the entirety of their views due to toxic, shitty people would be the same mistake they make when dismissing feminism.

Except the majority of feminism isn't toxic and they actually police their own movement.

 

[SturokBGD]

As a man who is painfully aware of the issues that can come from being a man I can't understand why anybody would want to associate with anything to do with the MRA/Red Pill "movements". That's like refuting your own argument before you even made it.

 

[Corpekata]

I find it hard to talk about this stuff on GAF sometimes since I stick to gaming mostly and then when I come here it's like it's expected that you know everything that the 'collective unconscious' here knows, like what Pizzagate is. To me, Pizzagate is when Arsenal played Man Utd that one time and pizza was thrown at Wenger. Not your fault, obviously!

Anyway, that guy Cernovich sounds like scum going by the quote posted. If he's behind this, I can see why you'd be wary of it. That said, I'd still listen to what the guys have to say with an open mind. I mean, either the doc has these dudes saying rape apologist and misogynist things or it doesn't. Either they're making good points back with evidence or they're not.

Pizzagate was the conspiracy theory Alt Right folks spread that suggested the Clinton campaign was running an underground children sex ring in Washington DC, supposedly in the basement of a pizza place. It lead to one of Cernovich's fans bringing a gun to the pizza place and shooting up the place.

It's not some thing on Gaf, it was a big story.

 

[Griss]

why would a documentary provide any other view point other than the one it wants you to have?


here i'll save you the time from imdb: Michael Cernovich ... associate producer (as Mike Cernovich)

here:

we done here?

It wouldn't?

I'm saying I'm going to judge the content of the movie based on what it is, rather than who made it.

EDIT: See your edit, point still 100% stands.

 

[Night Angel]

Except the majority of feminism isn't toxic and they actually police their own movement.

Sure. Not sure where I said otherwise.

 

[EdibleKnife]

I did not know that Cassie Jaye was a rape apologist. You're sure doing yourself a lot of favors here.

She should be more choosy about the people she associates with:

She also expressed sympathy when Forney mentioned that he himself had been the victim of a "false" rape accusation. (Imagine that, the author of a blog post titled "Why Girls Rarely Mean No When They Say No" being accused of rape!)

 

[radios shipping overview]

I don't think you understood my post. You are agreeing with me.

Which is not to say that MRAs still present legitimate issues. Dismissing the entirety of their views due to toxic, shitty people would be the same mistake they make when dismissing feminism.

I'm not worried about whether I'm hurting self-identified MRAs' feelings by dismissing them out of hand. It feels ridiculous talking about the group when they seemingly aren't represented here (or maybe they are?), but if they want to come to the table and discuss men's issues without framing the discussion in such a way as to attack feminism, then they are welcome.

 

[Freshmaker]

No I wonder, was she duped? Was I duped? What is the definition of feminism? Is the way I believe in feminism wrong?
I know that GAF loves topics like that and always follow them closely so I wondered what other gaffers might think about this documentary.

It's not really about being duped. People identify with a given group and naturally tend to view other groups as suspect. It makes communication between those groups rather difficult as a result.

 

[Darryl M R]

Sure. Not sure where I said otherwise.

Then you are aware that you made a false equivalency?


That's like arguing Blue Lives Matter has some merits and should be listened to just as much as Black Lives Matter because police are actually put in harmful situation. All while ignoring that one movement is nothing more than a counter movement that is there just to block the progress of another.

 

[Night Angel]

I'm not worried about whether I'm hurting self-identified MRAs' feelings by dismissing them out of hand. It feels ridiculous talking about the group when they seemingly aren't represented here (or maybe they are?), but if they want to come to the table and discuss men's issues without framing the discussion in such a way as to attack feminism, then they are welcome.

Your attitude is pretty aligned with people who dismiss feminism out of hand in the absence of feminists. Sounds like what happens in a certain subreddit, and that place is terrible.

Then you are aware that you made a false equivalency?


That's like arguing Blue Lives Matter has some merits and should be listened to just as much as Black Lives Matter because police are actually put in harmful situation. All while ignoring that one movement is nothing more than a counter movement that is there just to block the progress of another.

I never said they were the same, I said they both present legitimate issues. If you choose to make them equivalent based on that you're welcome to.

And it's quite a leap to say that issues faced by men don't have merit in the presence of feminism.

I'm not sure why everyone is jumping down my throat. I agree that most MRAs I've encountered are shitty people more interested in hindering women than helping everyone. That doesn't mean the movement has no merit.

 

[Anton Sugar]

You weren't actually expecting women-hating MRAs to portray *themselves* as women-hating MRAs in their own goddamned documentary, were you?

 

[Psychoward]

Your attitude is pretty aligned with people who dismiss feminism out of hand in the absence of feminists. Sounds like what happens in a certain subreddit, and that place is terrible.

But.... you can talk about men's issues without using "MRA" or "the red pill" because both of those labels have negative stigmas for a reason.

 

[Rodelero]

What?

There's a difference between doing something like Movember to raise awareness of prostate cancer and other men's health issues, and being part of the GG/alt-right/MRA/whatever crowd.

MRAs should be dismissed as quickly as the Breitbart people. Hell, MRAs ARE the Breitbart people.

How does this response bear any relation to what I actually said?

My stance is simple. There are significant mens' rights issues that need to be addressed. Feminism has ideas on how to solve them, but no right to a hegemony. There is nothing wrong with men who want to affect positive change in this area. Criticise GamerGate. Criticise the Alt-Right. Criticise Pick-up Artistry. Criticise Red Pillers. But when you criticise anyone who wants to talk about men's rights issues (beyond the ones that are totally uncontroversial like cancer), you are part of the problem.

 

[louiedog]

It wouldn't?

I'm saying I'm going to judge the content of the movie based on what it is, rather than who made it.

EDIT: See your edit, point still 100% stands.

It's a recruiting tool. They present themselves as nice to rope in naive people and then indoctrinate them into their trash. Scientology doesn't tell you about the evil shit they do at the info session.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

If Michael Cernovich is involved, it's trash. Don't support people like that.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

I don't think you understood my post. You are agreeing with me. This documentary is taking disproportionate samples and skewing perception of both movements.

Which is not to say that MRAs don't still present legitimate issues. Dismissing the entirety of their views due to toxic, shitty people would be the same mistake they make when dismissing feminism.

I'm not agreeing with you.

You said that it's okay to be dismissive of the "crazy version" of MRAs just like it's fine to be dismissive of the "crazy version" of feminists, but my point is that there's a difference in doing so.

When the majority of MRAs are horrible, the "crazy version" of the movement is the one that actively tries to help men without attacking women or feminism.

 

[ElFly]

these are valid issues but sadly the regular women hating MRAs are tainting them with their presence

if the documentary really wanted to help it would not have titled itself "the red pill", jesus christ. there is a lot of this that is branding

 

[NoblesseOblige]

A film that's biggest contributor is Mike Cernovich.
A film applauded by Milo Yiannopoulos.
A film featuring Paul Elam.

These three facts alone should tell you it's a propaganda piece.

 

[pirateluigi]

Those issues would be welcomed because they're the feminist perspective on men's issues. What about a discussion of the issues apparently presented in the documentary? Custody cases and parenthood, life expectancy, mortality, treatment by the criminal justice system? Those are issues these men seem to want to discuss. It's not the feminism-sactioned list. Is it acceptable?

What in the world does this mean? I wasn't aware there were topics officially sanctioned by the global feminist union.

Issues facing men are important and should be discussed. The problem is they get conflated with men's rights, which tends to be alarmism based on phantom militant feminists. Men's rights aren't under any systemic attack and that discussion is clouding the conversation we should be having about health, opioid dependence, suicide rates, and toxic masculinity.

 

[HStallion]

Please won't someone think of the misogynists? Some feminists were mean to them at one point!

 

[Moff]

Redundancy aside, there is a tiny contingent of men's rights activists who seriously want to focus on those issues you listed. They list those issues as their focus because they are legitimate issues. However in reality they don't focus on those at all and instead spend their time attacking other activists trying to elevate the rights of women. More feminists are working honestly to benefit the rights of men than MRAs by the simple fact that many stereotypes that negatively affect women also have negative affects on men. For example...

Women are seen as fragile and deserving of protection. This means men are seen as strong protectors who are put into positions of greater risk.

Women are seen as belonging in the household leaving men to be the financial provider. When a man fails to succeed in this regard there's an increase probability of depression, and thus suicide.

Women are seen as natural caregivers causing preferential treatment for them in custody battles. Inversely this means men to be more often on the losing end.

But instead of agreeing with these points MRA want to sit around and bitch about things like 'the pussy pass' and align themselves with bigots and sexists.

there are MRA in this movie specifically talking about all of this, a group of women called honey badgers.

 

[Griss]

You should really do yourself a favor and visit that subreddit if you want to know why "mens rights activists" are looked down upon

Assuming you're talking about 'The Red Pill', I just went there.

Was not at all what I was expecting. I was expecting militant anti-feminism (which would obviously be unpopular here). What I got was classic PUA bullshit and misogyny. What does this site have to do with men's rights? Nothing as far as I can tell. It's a pick-up artist and virgin counselling site as far as I can tell. Completely fucking irrelevant to what should be the topic at hand.

Where are the actual MRA hubs?

What in the world does this mean? I wasn't aware there were topics officially sanctioned by the global feminist union.

Issues facing men are important and should be discussed. The problem is they get conflated with men's rights, which tends to be alarmism based on phantom militant feminists. Men's rights aren't under any systemic attack and that discussion is clouding the conversation we should be having about health, opioid dependence, suicide rates, and toxic masculinity.

Again, I read liberal, feminist newspapers. I read the Guardian daily. You'll see discussion of toxic masculinity by feminists all the time, but you will never see discussion of the issues I raised. That's what I meant. You just don't see much feminist discourse on the custody gap, the suicide gap, the life expectancy gap.

 

[Psychoward]

Assuming you're talking about 'The Red Pill', I just went there.

Was not at all what I was expecting. I was expecting militant anti-feminism (which would obviously be unpopular here). What I got was classic PUA bullshit and misogyny. What does this site have to do with men's rights? Nothing as far as I can tell. It's a pick-up artist and virgin counselling site as far as I can tell. Completely fucking irrelevant to what should be the topic at hand.

Where are the actual MRA hubs?

That is the MRA hub.

 

[Darryl M R]

Assuming you're talking about 'The Red Pill', I just went there.

Was not at all what I was expecting. I was expecting militant anti-feminism (which would obviously be unpopular here). What I got was classic PUA bullshit and misogyny. What does this site have to do with men's rights? Nothing as far as I can tell. It's a pick-up artist and virgin counselling site as far as I can tell. Completely fucking irrelevant to what should be the topic at hand.

Where are the actual MRA hubs?

You just went there.

I wouldn't continue pretending that you can detach the red pill from MRA.