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[NoblesseOblige]

there are MRA in this movie specifically talking about all of this, a group of women called honey badgers.

Honey Badgers were (are?) a 'group' of anti-feminist women. And they're of such insignificance that I honestly forgot they even existed anymore.

Just sounds like stretching to have a woman on their side.

 

[Meier]

So people in this thread are reporting that this is just propaganda to clean MRA's namesake? How sad.

I think it is humorous whenever I see someone say "You are trying to shout down men." When it is men in power dictating the health procedures women can go through. When it is men in power telling other men that they are weak and emotional if they talk about their problems. And it's men recruiting and grooming boys to think that women deserve sexual assault. Don't sprinkle your bs "Well it is more about negative health outcome" when MRA has made a name for itself by being the worst of society.

The wiki mentions that one of the biggest backers is Mike Cernovich who is one of the most toxic and disgusting dudes on the internet.

I won't see this, but it's very easy to interview certain people who fit an agenda that benefits your film. I think most "feminists" would be all about men having a similar role in the home -- it's tantamount to the concept itself which is that your sex shouldn't dictate your role.

 

[EdibleKnife]

It's a recruiting tool. They present themselves as nice to rope in naive people and then indoctrinate them into their trash. Scientology doesn't tell you about the evil shit they do at the info session.

It becomes even more clear when you know who put money into it:

However, since The Red Pill's release, it has emerged that many of the film's Kickstarter supporters are members of the MRA community, and it was also supported by the conservative news outlet Breitbart.

In one article about The Red Pill, Breitbart columnist Milo Yiannopoulos proclaimed, "there is a war room, somewhere in Portland today with a vagina-shaped table surrounded by all the leading feminists arguing how to save their movement... [from Cassie Jaye] a self-identified feminist who has serious bona fides both as a filmmaker and a friend to lefty causes like marriage equality."

 

[Gotdatmoney]

You can talk about issues men face. That has never been an issue. MRA and Red Pill have always been bullshit more concerned about bitching that woman are getting things opposed to advocating for issues that really affect men. These communities have always been tagged with negativity because of their actions. The people that associate with those groups normally have some really fucked up views.

If you care about issues affecting men the first thing you would do is distance yourself from those two communities as fast as possible

 

[besada]

we done here?

You left out Warren Farrell, also featured, also a rape apologist. Also it features Paul Elam, another rape apologist.

[T]here are a lot of women who get pummeled and pumped because they are stupid (and often arrogant) enough to walk though life with the equivalent of a I’M A STUPID, CONNIVING BITCH – PLEASE RAPE ME neon sign glowing above their empty little narcissistic heads.

 

[louiedog]

Assuming you're talking about 'The Red Pill', I just went there.

Was not at all what I was expecting. I was expecting militant anti-feminism (which would obviously be unpopular here). What I got was classic PUA bullshit and misogyny. What does this site have to do with men's rights? Nothing as far as I can tell. It's a pick-up artist and virgin counselling site as far as I can tell. Completely fucking irrelevant to what should be the topic at hand.

Where are the actual MRA hubs?

If you're going to argue and insist this isn't the REAL MRA movement maybe you should tell us.

 

[Night Angel]

I'm not agreeing with you.

You said that it's okay to be dismissive of the "crazy version" of MRAs just like it's fine to be dismissive of the "crazy version" of feminists, but my point is that there's a difference in doing so.

When the majority of MRAs are horrible, the "crazy version" of the movement is the one that actively tries to help men without attacking women or feminism.

I mean, it's cool if you want to deliberately misread my post, but that's on you. I'm dismissive of the toxic elements of both movements, which was really fucking obvious if you have the ability to understand context.

Go on tilting at windmills, I guess. It feels better to be righteous than right.

 

[Kinyou]

That's some bullshit.

This documentary is the equivalent of showing some "moderate" neo-nazis next to some toxic members of BLM. One group is mostly made up of shitty individuals, the other is not. Treating both groups like they have the same number of shitty people is disingenuous as hell.

That analogy doesn't really work. Even a moderate Neonazi is still a freaking Neonazi which means he has racist, fascist believes etc.

A moderate MRA who just wants more help for suicidal men isn't hurting anyone.

It becomes even more clear when you know who put money into it:

When this money was given through kickstarter doesn't this mean they didn't actually have influence on the content?
I think it makes more sense to look at the content of the documentary and how it fails to look at the prominent toxic side of MRA

edit: oh nevermind, looks like at least one of them was a producer

 

[BrutishMrFish]

It feels better to be righteous than right.

Clearly you would know from experience.

That analogy doesn't really work. Even a moderate Neonazi is still a freaking Neonazi which means he has racist, fascist believes etc.

A moderate MRA who just wants more help for suicidal men isn't hurting anyone.

Okay, then replace moderate neonazis with moderate Gamergaters. If people want to do something about the subject that they're so passionate about, then the best way to do that is to not to associate with any hate group.

 

[Griss]

That is the MRA hub.

There must be, somewhere on the internet, a place where otherwise reasonable men discuss the areas in society in which men are disadvantaged to women.

You just went there.

I wouldn't continue pretending that you can detach the red pill from MRA.

I wouldn't continue pretending that you can read my mind. It's tedious.

I feel like the meme that this is all men's rights is or can be is in itself toxic.

If you're going to argue and insist this isn't the REAL MRA movement maybe you should tell us.

I'm telling you that there is no discussion of men's rights there. I know because I just saw it. If you're asking me what a discussion of men's rights would look like, I can tell you. If you're asking me where it takes place, that's what I've just asked - I have previously said that I am not involved in this politically in any way beyond a natural interest in the topic.

 

[HStallion]

That analogy doesn't really work. Even a moderate Neonazi is still a freaking Neonazi which means he has racist, fascist believes etc.

A moderate MRA who just wants more help for suicidal men isn't hurting anyone.

A moderate MRA wouldn't call themselves an MRA in the first place as they would be well aware how toxic that label is.

 

[benicillin]

That analogy doesn't really work. Even a moderate Neonazi is still a freaking Neonazi which means he has racist, fascist believes etc.

A moderate MRA who just wants more help for suicidal men isn't hurting anyone.

If a guy just wants to help suicidal men then he probably isn't an MRA as the label exists and is commonly understood. This is "I'm only a gamergater because I want more ethics in journalism" all over again.

 

[CloudyTuba]

What I personally took away from this documentary is that both MRA and feminists want the same thing, to break up traditional genders roles that harm both genders, but they are disagreeing and arguing about silly semantics and prefer to fight each other.

From what I understand, the original core of 'MRA' was aimed toward people like dads feeling mistreated by the courts, or exasperated male teachers scared of being accused of pedophilia. The sort of things you say you saw in the documentary. Breaking gender roles and such. As we know that's not really how it turned out.

My theory is that it's a reaction to the poorer forms of feminism you sometimes run across. The result was a lot of dudes feeling like they needed their own form of advocacy. The feminist ideal of course does not ignore men, but it's often perceived that way, and every movement has radicals. The radicals convince a lot of dudes that feminism=only helping women. The name doesn't really help that perception.

But then of course something named "Men's Rights" will inevitably attract woman haters, of which there are apparently still many. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any MRA community that isn't a toilet full of shit. Those same assholes are usually deep into the Red Pill communities too, which has basically made the two labels synonymous at this point. Some people still hold on to the MRA label calling themselves 'true MRAs' who just want more help for suicidal men and stuff like that, but I think that ship has sailed.

I don't know much about it yet but I have run across some people on the net calling themselves Egalitarians, which is supposedly meant to basically be the same thing as a feminist but without a gender-focused name to avoid radicals on either side, and make it easier for both sides to feel comfortable coming together for each other. They want to avoid the sports team mentality a lot of folk fall into. Sounds nice in theory but I haven't interacted with these communities at all so I can't say how it goes in practice.

I think there's room for serious advocates of men's issues. unfortunately, most of that room has already been taken up by folks like Paul Elam, Roosh V, and Warren Farrell, all of who are scummy rape apologists and deep, hard-core misogynists.

Men genuinely have unique problems that are not being addressed, but the people who are currently holding the reins of the MRA movement have no serious interest in addressing them, and refuse to work with existing groups already trying to do the same thing. In fact, the people like Elam, Roosh, and Farrell basically do nothing but incite and enrage their base for profit.

No one is going to take any sort of men's movement seriously until it's not synonymous with misogyny, and it's unfortunate that so many people who do care about men's issue allow themselves to be captured by these groups, which wastes time and energy they could be using to address real, serious problems.

Agreed. There is legitimate discussion to be had which is what some people calling themselves MRAs are trying to address, but it's not going to happen while they're still trying to carry that flag. They're still trying to 'take it back' but it's not going to happen.

Do you know anything about the Egalitarians? What do you think of them? Could that be a better route for men's issues to take?

 

[Garrett Hawke]

It sounds like this documentary is exactly what you've bolded, yet that does not seem to have affected your reaction to it one big. Consider that. Are you willing to give the discussion of men's rights a fair shake, honestly? It doesn't sound as if you would be.



Those issues would be welcomed because they're the feminist perspective on men's issues. What about a discussion of the issues apparently presented in the documentary? Custody cases and parenthood, life expectancy, mortality, treatment by the criminal justice system? Those are issues these men seem to want to discuss. It's not the feminism-sactioned list. Is it acceptable?

Didn't you once post about how you couldn't stand your male friend now cus they got fat and how you could probably steal his girlfriend?

Sounds like toxic masculinity to me.

 

[Nabbis]

Im somewhat amused at how a person who in his own mind takes a nearly morally absolute position on feminism has his beliefs questioned by a single documentary. This is generally why people have semantic debates on complex issues.

 

[Mutant]

Sounds like you got duped, OP.

 

[gforguava]

I feel like the meme that this is all men's rights is or can be is in itself toxic.

Jesus Christ, you can't be serious.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

There must be, somewhere on the internet, a place where otherwise reasonable men discuss the areas in society in which men are disadvantaged to women.

Yeah. Those are usually places of academic feminist discussion.

 

[Darryl M R]

There must be, somewhere on the internet, a place where otherwise reasonable men discuss the areas in society in which men are disadvantaged to women.



I wouldn't continue pretending that you can read my mind. It's tedious.

I feel like the meme that this is all men's rights is or can be is in itself toxic.

Your mind, no. But your intentions to argue that MRA is a worthy cause instead of a toxic counter moment is clear.

Also check out feminist stomping grounds for actual discussions of men issues.

 

[Dude Abides]

Does it explore whether the MRA concerns are empirically justified, such as how the custody disparity falls apart under scrutiny?

Or is it just one of those superficial deals where "this side says this, the other side says that, the answer, of course, is in the middle. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯."

 

[firehawk12]

How does this response bear any relation to what I actually said?

My stance is simple. There are significant mens' rights issues that need to be addressed. Feminism has ideas on how to solve them, but no right to a hegemony. There is nothing wrong with men who want to affect positive change in this area. Criticise GamerGate. Criticise the Alt-Right. Criticise Pick-up Artistry. Criticise Red Pillers. But when you criticise anyone who wants to talk about men's rights issues (beyond the ones that are totally uncontroversial like cancer), you are part of the problem.

There are people who talk about men's issues in a rational manner all the time who are not criticized. The MRA are not those people, and they deserve all the disdain that they get.

Besides, "men's issues" is as problematic as "women's issues", because I imagine many people who consider themselves a part of the MRA would also be against Black Lives Matter because Black men being executed by police officers is not considered a problem for them despite the fact that police abuse is an issue that disproportionately affects Black men.

 

[lightskintwin]

That analogy doesn't really work. Even a moderate Neonazi is still a freaking Neonazi which means he has racist, fascist believes etc.

A moderate MRA who just wants more help for suicidal men isn't hurting anyone.

There's a good chance that men who congregate together over men's rights, despite their gender being the dominant power are sexist, and misogynistic.

 

[Opto]

A film that's biggest contributor is Mike Cernovich.
A film applauded by Milo Yiannopoulos.
A film featuring Paul Elam.

These three facts alone should tell you it's a propaganda piece.

Oh shit the sperm guy produced it? Well, there it is

 

[besada]

I think there's room for serious advocates of men's issues. unfortunately, most of that room has already been taken up by folks like Paul Elam, Roosh V, and Warren Farrell, all of who are scummy rape apologists and deep, hard-core misogynists.

Men genuinely have unique problems that are not being addressed, but the people who are currently holding the reins of the MRA movement have no serious interest in addressing them, and refuse to work with existing groups already trying to do the same thing. In fact, the people like Elam, Roosh, and Farrell basically do nothing but incite and enrage their base for profit.

No one is going to take any sort of men's movement seriously until it's not synonymous with misogyny, and it's unfortunate that so many people who do care about men's issue allow themselves to be captured by these groups, which wastes time and energy they could be using to address real, serious problems.

Oh, Griss, try The Good Men's Project. It was specifically created to discuss men's issues outside of the context of MRA groups. https://goodmenproject.com/

 

[DerangedHermit]

Jesus Christ, you can't be serious.

He's "just asking questions", dude!

 

[benicillin]

I think there's room for serious advocates of men's issues. unfortunately, most of that room has already been taken up by folks like Paul Elam, Roosh V, and Warren Farrell, all of who are scummy rape apologists and deep, hard-core misogynists.

Men genuinely have unique problems that are not being addressed, but the people who are currently holding the reins of the MRA movement have no serious interest in addressing them, and refuse to work with existing groups already trying to do the same thing. In fact, the people like Elam, Roosh, and Farrell basically do nothing but incite and enrage their base for profit.

No one is going to take any sort of men's movement seriously until it's not synonymous with misogyny, and it's unfortunate that so many people who do care about men's issue allow themselves to be captured by these groups, which wastes time and energy they could be using to address real, serious problems.

Don't forget that all this is actually feminisms fault, too. Because one time one feminist somewhere said something.

 

[muu]

I participated in the redpill subreddit as well as the MRA one for a bit. It was during a rocky time in a relationship, and I wasn't sure if I was going to see my daughter again for a bit. Tensions cooled down relatively quickly so ultimately I didn't need to go through anything IRL, but I did stick around a bit since core philosophies did seem helpful. This was a few years ago, and at least back then I ignored all this "women are this and that" part and found self-improvement parts of TRP valid. Finding resources for custody issues from the POV of a male was more tricky so MRA stuff was useful in that regard.

I got out of both since it became obvious there was no middle ground w/ people active in these subs. Counterpoints were not welcome, and otherwise it was just littered w/ "field reports" of people taking advantage of women. MRA had a similar vibe. I checked out these subs around the election, and (although perhaps I shouldn't have been) I was floored to see they've become mini Donald Trump fanclubs. Hard to say whether these people have such a single-issue scorn for women that they'd go all in on Trump, or that these communities were taken over by a different group of people. A few months ago there was a thread on GAF about attempts at radicalization of our youth online, and I must say these were prime examples.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

The stupid thing is all these "men's issues" like custody, etc are literally caused by other men being unable to see men outside of the sphere of masculinity - they are unable to see men as matronly or caring, that's what women do!

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Mens rights groups attract male nutters, female rights groups attract female nutters.

 

[Griss]

Didn't you once post about how you couldn't stand your male friend now cus they got fat and how you could probably steal his girlfriend?

Sounds like toxic masculinity to me.

Irrelevant to the thread, lame 'gotcha' attempt. Why would you do this if you don't feel threatened?

As an update since you're so interested, his girlfriend indeed left him as I predicted, he confided in me regarding his weight issues (drug-related), we're now good friends again (I hadn't seen him in years) and he's got his life/weight under control, is back in college for post-grad and is doing great.

My drunk thread? Embarassing. Supporting your buddies irl? Not exactly toxic masculinity. Swing and a miss. Search my posts for an hour or two and try again.

Jesus Christ, you can't be serious.

Of course I am.

Yeah. Those are usually places of academic feminist discussion.

I just don't see it. There must be a place to discuss men's issues without framing them as feminist issues. There is a difference. Even 'toxic masculinity' comes across as a feminist judgment of men that would not be acceptable if it was men judging women in the same way.

 

[Dude Abides]

Mens rights groups attract male nutters, female rights groups attract female nutters.

Deep.

 

[TurboButts]

Didn't you once post about how you couldn't stand your male friend now cus they got fat and how you could probably steal his girlfriend?

Sounds like toxic masculinity to me.

hey

this is a bad post

 

[jon bones]

Oh, Griss, try The Good Men's Project. It was specifically created to discuss men's issues outside of the context of MRA groups. https://goodmenproject.com/

useful

Mens rights groups attract male nutters, female rights groups attract female nutters.

not useful

 

[gforguava]

He's "just asking questions", dude!

I mean I should've known better by now.

This thread is just mystifying. The film is named The Red Pill, even if you are ignoring who has funded it, who is in it, and who has praised it, just go to the site it is named after and take a look at these "activists".

Of course I am.

I just don't see it. There must be a place to discuss men's issues without framing them as feminist issues. There is a difference. Even 'toxic masculinity' comes across as a feminist judgment of men that would not be acceptable if it was men judging women in the same way.

Gotcha.

 

[JP_]

It wouldn't?

I'm saying I'm going to judge the content of the movie based on what it is, rather than who made it.

EDIT: See your edit, point still 100% stands.

Sounds like you're willing to take propaganda at face value while ignoring the context.

 

[HStallion]

Mens rights groups attract male nutters, female rights groups attract female nutters.

Both sides!

 

[Codeblue]

People who care about dismantling gender roles and custody cases that call themselves MRAs are like Gamergaters that are still carrying the "ethics in journalism" flag. They hitched their wagon to an irrelevant, toxic horse and are too stupid to realize it.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

useful



not useful

But true all the same.

 

[louiedog]

Mens rights groups attract male nutters, female rights groups attract female nutters.

Finally someone who can see both sides for what they really are. Too smart for most, but the hero we need on the internet. We can wrap this one up, mods.

 

[radios shipping overview]

I mean, it's cool if you want to deliberately misread my post, but that's on you. I'm dismissive of the toxic elements of both movements, which was really fucking obvious if you have the ability to understand context.

Go on tilting at windmills, I guess. It feels better to be righteous than right.

Your both-sides-ism is tiresome. Redpillers and feminists are not equivalent in any way in origins or goals. If you want to make a case that MRAs have brought about enough positive change in the world to cancel out the toxicity in their communities, now is your chance.

 

[Opto]

Mens rights groups attract male nutters, female rights groups attract female nutters.

I want to hear more about the two being the same.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Irrelevant to the thread, lame 'gotcha' attempt. Why would you do this if you don't feel threatened?

It isn't irrelevant at all, you came into this thread complaining about men's rights and how feminists don't care about them and yet in another thread you made less than a year ago you were perpetuating harmful notions about men, much of which is the stuff feminists DO try to address.

 

[Ahasverus]

I do think it's unfair that men live less and must retire at an older age, that's like the only thing I can say men are disadvantaged and unfairly treated over women.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Mens rights groups attract male nutters, female rights groups attract female nutters.

This is a nonsense statement. It's nothing.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

If someone seriously wants to read about the issues facing men then look to someone like Michael Messner. Not this trash.

I just don't see it. There must be a place to discuss men's issues without framing them as feminist issues.

Feminism is about equal gender rights. And equality is as much men's rights as it is women's rights. MRA don't want equal rights. They want to maintain the advantages men have while also gaining the few women have.

 

[Griss]

I think there's room for serious advocates of men's issues. unfortunately, most of that room has already been taken up by folks like Paul Elam, Roosh V, and Warren Farrell, all of who are scummy rape apologists and deep, hard-core misogynists.

Men genuinely have unique problems that are not being addressed, but the people who are currently holding the reins of the MRA movement have no serious interest in addressing them, and refuse to work with existing groups already trying to do the same thing. In fact, the people like Elam, Roosh, and Farrell basically do nothing but incite and enrage their base for profit.

No one is going to take any sort of men's movement seriously until it's not synonymous with misogyny, and it's unfortunate that so many people who do care about men's issue allow themselves to be captured by these groups, which wastes time and energy they could be using to address real, serious problems.

Oh, Griss, try The Good Men's Project. It was specifically created to discuss men's issues outside of the context of MRA groups. https://goodmenproject.com/

Jesus Christ, Besada, THANK YOU! I will indeed read up on the Good Men's Project. I knew there had to be somewhere, and if you say this one is the 'non-misgynist' place to start, then that's all I need.

All I really wanted out of the thread was an acknowledgment of the bolded. Because it flows from your bolded statement that men's rights shouldn't be synonymous with misogyny.

I've been all over the world - women have it much, much tougher than men everywhere you go. But any inequalities are worth fighting, imo, even if my own personal political beliefs are that wealth inequality is the cause I personally wish to spend my time fighting for.

It isn't irrelevant at all, you came into this thread complaining about men's rights and how feminists don't care about them and yet in another thread you made less than a year ago you were perpetuating harmful notions about men, much of which is the stuff feminists DO try to address.

My relationship with my friend is entirely irrelevant to this thread and you well know it. I also
a) Didn't perpetuate any harmful notions about men.
b) Was drunk and said I was drunk
c) Repudiated my comments in that thread by the end.

But you wouldn't give the whole story, that's not how a 'gotcha' works. Transparent fool.

 

[Rodelero]

You can talk about issues men face. That has never been an issue. MRA and Red Pill have always been bullshit more concerned about bitching that woman are getting things opposed to advocating for issues that really affect men. These communities have always been tagged with negativity because of their actions. The people that associate with those groups normally have some really fucked up views.

If you care about issues affecting men the first thing you would do is distance yourself from those two communities as fast as possible

I'm not sure it's quite as easy to talk about the issues men face as you want to imply. We live in a society that spends a great deal of time discussing and thinking about the issues that specifically affect women and girls, which is a hugely positive thing, but the society does not do the same for men and boys. The justification for this is typically the notion that caring about men and boys is the default, which may have been true at some point, but certainly isn't anymore. Mens' rights needs a forum, and the people that care about them should be able to rally around a banner. Perhaps the term 'Men's Rights Activist' is too toxic to be saved - there are certainly many revolting individuals who call themselves MRAs - but then I am well aware that going back in history people that called themselves feminists or that were part of women's lib were demonised to an even greater extent*.

I am not a mens' right activist, but if I did want to do something about the mens' rights issues I care about passionately (like the education gap) I'm not really sure what I would call myself.

*to be absolutely clear, I am not suggesting that early feminism is in anyway equivalent to current mens' rights activism, but that causes have managed to completely turn about the way they are perceived.

Besides, "men's issues" is as problematic as "women's issues", because I imagine many people who consider themselves a part of the MRA would also be against Black Lives Matter because Black men being executed by police officers is not considered a problem for them despite the fact that police abuse is an issue that disproportionately affects Black men.

This sentence is insane. I'm just quoting it for posterity really. I have no idea how to respond.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

I want to hear more about the two being the same.

They're obviously not the same, but if the topic being discussed (the doc) involves extreme opinions either side from fringe elements misunderstanding each other it's fair to point out that there are elements of both that are not representative of the issues and are working out personal grievances.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I just don't see it. There must be a place to discuss men's issues without framing them as feminist issues. There is a difference. Even 'toxic masculinity' comes across as a feminist judgment of men that would not be acceptable if it was men judging women in the same way.

Eh feminism as a concept is concerned with breaking gender barriers and stereotypes. Male issues are going to be feminist by default. You can be a feminist who spends the bulk of their time discussing male issues.

I wont say anything about toxic masculinity comment besides the fact its pointing out something that is a major barrier for men and women. What would toxic feminality even look like?

 

[Darryl M R]

I do think it's unfair that men live less and must retire at an older age, that's like the only thing I can say men are disadvantaged and unfairly treated over women.

Maybe if we made sure to support women in the workforce more, so more men can retire at any age they want, we could solve that one issue.

You know I'm finding a trend. Whenever there is an issue facing men you can normally identify a group of leaders or policymakers that continue to push the current norms.

Spoiler

I need feminism so I can retire at 45 and take of my garden until I'm done