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[afternoon delight]

And this is what I don't understand. These terms are just that, terms. They have never been meant as something hateful or mean. They're just what they are. Slang. These are not the f word or the n word. They were not made with being offensive in mind, nor as an insult.

Man, whatever. I'll let the mods decide, but this is what I feel.

This. So much. I understand we're here on GAF's rules, but outside of the internet, I have never heard someone actively be offended by using these terms in moments where harm is not intended. Shemale? I'm (not really) sorry the whole world has been saying these things, but it's not like the language is going away. At least not before we are all long dead and GAF doesn't even exist.

So I guess it's a moot point.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Becoming transgendered is 100% a decision made by the individual. It's not inherent and something completely uncontrollable like someone's ethnicity or sexual orientation. To become a transsexual you need to go out of your way to undergo a sex change. In the end you are disguising your true form. I don't really have anything against transsexuals, but requesting a moratorium like this is similar (in my mind at least) to asking people not to call out a fake-boob job.

I would just like to point out that a transgender person's true form is the other gender they get surgery for, so there is no 'disguising' when it comes to sexual reassignment surgery, thank you very much.

 

[Alucrid]

It's about context. What, do you guys want to ban transexual too if people started using that in an offensive context?

Alucrid, whether the guy used tranny or transexual, it still would have been an insult.

You're right, it's all about context. Using tranny in that sentence was just icing on the cake filled with insult. Think about it for a second and I'm sure you'll see how 'tranny' conveys more meaning than just identifying who they were talking to.

 

[B For Bendetta]

So what side am I on if I am neither a bigot nor a censor?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I would just like to point out that a transgender person's true form is the other gender they get surgery for, so there is no 'disguising' when it comes to sexual reassignment surgery, thank you very much.

Why should it be treated differently than someone getting plastic surgery or fake breast implants? You are using artificial methods (surgery) to modify your natural features.

 

[Gaborn]

Becoming transgendered is 100% a decision made by the individual. It's not inherent and something completely uncontrollable like someone's ethnicity or sexual orientation.

No. TRANSITIONING is 100% a decision made by the individual. That is, deciding to live as the opposite sex, deciding to have hormone treatments. Deciding to have sex reassignment surgery. Those are choices. None of that MAKES you transgendered though. Just like, a 13 year old boy who realizes he's attracted to other boys and not to girls is gay before he even does anything about it. Being transgendered is no more a choice than that is.

To become a transsexual you need to go out of your way to undergo a sex change. In the end you are disguising your true form. I don't really have anything against transsexuals, but requesting a moratorium like this is similar (in my mind at least) to asking people not to call out a fake-boob job.

I agree with your first sentence. Your "true form" crack in your second sentence is NOT reality however.

 

[Jenga]

You're right, it's all about context. Using tranny in that sentence was just icing on the cake filled with insult. Think about it for a second and I'm sure you'll see how 'tranny' conveys more meaning than just identifying who they were talking to.

No, they both sound pretty damned demeaning.

 

[lowrider007]

Becoming transgendered is 100% a decision made by the individual. It's not inherent and something completely uncontrollable like someone's ethnicity or sexual orientation. To become a transsexual you need to go out of your way to undergo a sex change. In the end you are disguising your true form. I don't really have anything against transsexuals, but requesting a moratorium like this is similar (in my mind at least) to asking people not to call out a fake-boob job.

I can't believe that people are of this opinion in this day and age, you might as well say gay people made the choice to be gay, so much ignorance in this thread, no wonder why TG's find it so hard to be themselves in society as it so misunderstood.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Why should it be treated differently than someone getting plastic surgery or fake breast implants? You are using artificial methods (surgery) to modify your natural features.

Because instead of enhancing your own gender (breast implants, plastic surgery) you're switching it entirely, because you personally feel that you recognize with the other gender more than the one you were naturally born into. This is real, no matter what you may delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

 

[RiskyChris]

Why should it be treated differently than someone getting plastic surgery or fake breast implants? You are using artificial methods (surgery) to modify your natural features.

Needed to just say, you're really wrong. Transitioning is a medical procedure that takes lots of forms, up to and not necessarily including genital reconstruction surgery.

It is about making the body match the mind. It's 100% medical, and not cosmetic. These people are the other gender.

 

[Future]

I think the post

Don't get you dick is a twist, tranny.

was made with being offensive in mind and as an insult. But hey, maybe it's just me.

Wow, I hope thats not the post that started all this nonsense. Cuz clearly "tranny" even there isnt that offensive. Its the fact that he insulted someone by inferring he was trans, and made a joke about. Replace tranny with any other term meaning transgendered and it has the same effect.

Gotta admit, I'm flip floppin on this myself. Queer and Redneck have been brought up as slangy terms that often do have negative connotations...mainly because people tend to use slang when insulting someone. The terms themselves have little weight, and often appear on shit like mainstream tv shows. Obviously a class below real offensive words, such as nigger and fag which could never be used in this way.

I know this thread is goin on and on and will probably get locked. But damn, gotta admit its makin me think about this more than I thought I'd ever would . My conclusion is that while it probably isnt a bannable term filled with hatred, you may not want to use it out of respect. On the terms of midget and other words brought up

 

[Parallax Scroll]

RiskyChris, how about you stop hijacking threads in return?

 

[dave is ok]

I still don't see the connection between my post and your response.

Well you edited it - but before you did, you completely ignored the fact that there might be some valid reason why a transexual would need to tell someone they weren't a natural male/female (i.e. procreation) and just said something snarky about guys being scared of getting tricked by one

 

[Gaborn]

RiskyChris, how about you stop hijacking threads in return?

You need something in return for not being intentionally insulting to a group of people? You're a real prize.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I can't believe that people are of this opinion in this day and age, you might as well say gay people made the choice to be gay, so much ignorance in this thread, no wonder why TG's find it so hard to be themselves in society as it so misunderstood.

Except that I said in the post you quoted that sexual orientation is not a person's choice?

I may have used incorrect terminology. Undergoing a "transition" is what is 100% optional, as Gaborn pointed out. Being "transgendered" (i.e. identifying yourself with the opposite sex, which is obviously different from homosexuality) is not a decision made by the individual.

 

[Hex]

I would just like to point out that a transgender person's true form is the other gender they get surgery for, so there is no 'disguising' when it comes to sexual reassignment surgery, thank you very much.

The definition of "true form" is subjective there.

 

[elrechazado]

I would just like to point out that a transgender person's true form is the other gender they get surgery for, so there is no 'disguising' when it comes to sexual reassignment surgery, thank you very much.

Define your terms. What the heck does "true form" mean?

 

[Dude Abides]

Can roll your eyes, but hes not far off. Despite what you find socially acceptable it is true, kids in school will talk like this and no one pays them no mind. White kid says it, and it's on.

Isn't it just awful?

 

[Parallax Scroll]

You need something in return for not being intentionally insulting to a group of people? You're a real prize.

I don't believe I've ever used the word "tranny" on this forum. Technically, with this post I have now used it once, in quotes. RiskyChris is asking the forum for something. I am suggesting he give the forum something in return.

 

[Gaborn]

The definition of "true form" is subjective there.

ANYTHING dealing with self identification of ANY sort is subjective. "male" and "female" are social constructs, with aspects of biological foundation.

 

[Tain]

I don't know a single TG person, and it's not a subject I've been in many conversations about, but when I glanced at the Snipes thread and saw "trannies" I was all "huh, that word flies around here?" Doesn't surprise me at all that some might not like it.

 

[Future]

Needed to just say, you're really wrong. Transitioning is a medical procedure that takes lots of forms, up to and not necessarily including genital reconstruction surgery.

It is about making the body match the mind. It's 100% medical, and not cosmetic. These people are the other gender.

I understand where you are going with this, but its gotta be pretty clear where other people are coming from. If a dude goes through the change and becomes female...he's not really female to many men. The person is trans. I dont understand how this could not be understood or is even debatable.

I understand why maybe in public or on paper they would like to be referred to as the gender of choice, and that is their right. But to men and women, they will always carry the post/pre op moniker. Its a necessity in dating and social life. If someone puts someone on a blind date with a woman that happens to be trans, that is information the person needs to know right up front because "woman" is false in this sense

 

[ZephyrFate]

ANYTHING dealing with self identification of ANY sort is subjective. "male" and "female" are social constructs, with aspects of biological foundation.

This.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Needed to just say, you're really wrong. Transitioning is a medical procedure that takes lots of forms, up to and not necessarily including genital reconstruction surgery.

It is about making the body match the mind. It's 100% medical, and not cosmetic. These people are the other gender.

Ok, that's fine. I still have absolutely no interest in anyone who wasn't born as a biological female. I imagine most heterosexual males (and homosexual males as well probably, in case the guy they are after was born as a biological female) are the same. If someone is a transsexual and underwent sex reassignment surgery, then I would certainly like to know.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Wow at this thread's growth.

So much food for thought. Time to tuck in.

 

[harSon]

I should have stayed up and participated

I have to say, the whole "tranny is simply a shortened version of transsexual and is not offensive as a result" is mind numbingly stupid. I suppose people are perfectly in their right to refer to the Japanese as "Japs", seeing as it follows the same mentality.

ANYTHING dealing with self identification of ANY sort is subjective. "male" and "female" are social constructs, with aspects of biological foundation.

I touched on this with my "race" is a social construct debate a while back.

 

[seat]

Every thread RiskyChris creates is a veiled attempt to make a topic about himself.

Most of his posts in the later half of this thread have been condescending self-congratulatory statements about how he did a "great job" with this thread "educating" everyone within. And looking back, he didn't. Shidoshi did.

 

[Future]

I should have stayed up and participated

I have to say, the whole "tranny is simply a shortened version of transsexual and is not offensive as a result" is mind numbingly stupid. I suppose people are perfectly in their right to refer to the Japanese as "Japs", seeing as it follows the same mentality.

That term is slightly different. The term became a slur during the war and was used purely as such. Any reference to it now goes back to that moment in time.

Tranny is a bit more ambiguous. Its definitely a slang term, and one that could be annoying to some in a respectful sense. But I dont see the roots linked to hate speech like Jap and many other terms

 

[afternoon delight]

Every thread RiskyChris creates is a veiled attempt to make a topic about himself.

Most of his posts in the later half of this thread have been condescending self-congratulatory statements about how he did a "great job" with this thread "educating" everyone within. And looking back, he didn't. Shidoshi did.

Please, show me any post in this thread where he was self aggrandizing and/or inflating statements. Fucking please. Again, I'm just saying -

"next quote point"

 

[JudgeN]

ANYTHING dealing with self identification of ANY sort is subjective. "male" and "female" are social constructs, with aspects of biological foundation.

I'm sure I don't understand so I'm bring out a crazy example but wouldn't this mean that the term "gender" is meaningless? I could look in the mirror have the biology of a male but I could actually believe I'm a cat because self identification is subjective? Again this isn't a joke I just don't see how gender is subjective.

 

[Jenga]

riskychris

not self aggrandizing and/or inflating statements.

BWUH?!

 

[AlteredBeast]

I dismiss it precisely because I know that Chris isn't interested in equality, but rather just protecting some groups while being openly hostile towards others based on an arbitrary line that's being placed at a point where I disagree.

In my opinion, there's a large leap between the slurs used towards LGB folks and the one being used here to refer to transsexuals. Namely intent.

I do not think it's ok to outlaw a term that's mostly being used in a benign manner while continuing to condone openly virulent attacks on religion, or someone's weight. That's not being politically correct. That's just open favoritism.

If you're going to outlaw one term, you're going to need to outlaw many different terms as well. Otherwise, bad apples like RiskyChris will just use this new paradigm as a way to further their actions of selective discrimination. Very few GAFFERs are like this, but because the person who is pushing for this measure in such a selective fashion is a "bad apple," I am very suspicious of the final result of enacting his proposal.

definitely agree with everything you said.

 

[FoneBone]

Its definitely a slang term, and one that could be annoying to some in a respectful sense. But I dont see the roots linked to hate speech like Jap and many other terms

I don't think it's rooted in hate speech per se, but it is heavily linked to porn, which fixates on a fetishized version of transsexuality that i don't think most transsexuals want to be associated with.

 

[Drkirby]

and Hispanic.
let's take that out too.
Just like the white man to put "panic" into my race name.
From now on South American, Central American or Spanish European.

Really, I am a bit shocked Latino isn't a slur, it sounds much more insulting IMO.

 

[ZephyrFate]

I'm sure I don't understand so I'm bring out a crazy example but wouldn't this mean that the term "gender" is meaningless? I could look in the mirror have the biology of a male but I could actually believe I'm a cat because self identification is subjective? Again this isn't a joke I just don't see how gender is subjective.

Please go study any other place that is not a Western country that features a third gender. Then you'll see why 'gender' is purely a social construct.

 

[Spasm]

Why should it be treated differently than someone getting plastic surgery or fake breast implants? You are using artificial methods (surgery) to modify your natural features.

What if the implants were chosen to help someone deal with breast cancer? A situation beyond their control, but they make a choice to try and help themselves live more comfortably. Would it be insensitive to make fun of this person's fake tits?

So for TG... Assuming you're male, let's pretend that Freaky Friday happened, and tomorrow, you woke up in the body of Lindsay Lohan (lol). You didn't choose to, it just happened. After getting your fill of er... exploring your new body, it's time to get on with your life. After a while, it's obvious there is no Disney ending, and you are stuck this way. Would you be comfortable living the rest of your life in a female body or would you resign yourself to your fate and be miserable? Would you do everything in your power to live your life the way that feels comfortable to you, as a male?

 

[harSon]

That term is slightly different. The term became a slur during the war and was used purely as such. Any reference to it now goes back to that moment in time.

Tranny is a bit more ambiguous. Its definitely a slang term, and one that could be annoying to some in a respectful sense. But I dont see the roots linked to hate speech like Jap and many other terms

To be fair, how many slang terms referring to a particular demographic are not a slur of some kind? There are few reasons to refer to a demographic outside of its accepted name, ignorance and bigotry being the two biggest.

 

[afternoon delight]

I don't think it's rooted in hate speech per se, but it is heavily linked to porn, which fixates on a fetishized version of transsexuality that i don't think most transsexuals want to be associated with.

Along with the terms MILF, black dick, lolita, etc. Are we now going to base our language on how PORN categorizes things? It's PORN. It's degrading to EVERYTHING.

 

[RiskyChris]

Every thread RiskyChris creates is a veiled attempt to make a topic about himself.

Most of his posts in the later half of this thread have been condescending self-congratulatory statements about how he did a "great job" with this thread "educating" everyone within. And looking back, he didn't. Shidoshi did.

Actually posts in the second half of this thread were me defending from people going "RiskyChris you make shit threads and shit posts."

So, should I go back and quote nearly every post I made in the first few pages of this thread, where I've talked about a wide range of issues? Is that not educating? You're throwing out insults and accusations without any evidence.

I talk about all kind of injustices in the world, how is this any different and what makes it so self-serving?

 

[AVclub]

It's not like most of you virgins would be able to tell the difference between a natural vagina and a post-op one with today's procedures. Heck, most of the times you can't tell the difference between natural and silicone breasts.

While I think being honest as soon as possible when transgendered people are still pre-op is a must, as soon as they're post-op and their ID/SS card/whatever identifies them as their social gender, I don't see the point of doing so.

I think we need a moratorium on this "virgin" nonsense. It's especially silly and pointless in these discussions. Besides, I am a master cocksman of the highest order!

And you are ignoring the fact that some people are open and upfront with their trans state. Not every individual who has had reassignment surgery is trying to fool a potential lover.

This is exactly right. Which is why I said the surgery can help facilitate deception. I am not generalizing about transsexual honesty or dishonesty. I simply said that I think it's dishonest to hide your birth sex from a potential lover. I'm sure that some people do this and others do not.

 

[FoneBone]

Along with the terms MILF, black dick, lolita, etc. Are we now going to base our language on how PORN categorizes things? It's PORN. It's degrading to EVERYTHING.

i'm saying that we don't need to use those terms when there are easy alternatives

 

[Future]

I don't think it's rooted in hate speech per se, but it is heavily linked to porn, which fixates on a fetishized version of transsexuality that i don't think most transsexuals want to be associated with.

Again, I see the annoyance caused by it. Porn did start adopting the term...again because things like pornography and insults will use slang terms for everything. Transgendered Delights Go Missionary Position sounds less cool than Tranny's Go Doggystyle or whatever.

But that is still in a different class than Fag and Nigger where I am concerned. Instead, I'd say it's a less respectful term. But bannable and immediately linked to hate speech? Not the same...unless of course there is something I'm missing. Glancing in and out of thread I had flip flopped my position on this for sure, and its definitely due to the ambiguity of the link to hate.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Is it that difficult to accept that context matters and the connotations change depending on who's the one saying it?

Context certainly matters, but as I mentioned before in my mini rant on the n word, context is often lost on people outside the 'reclamation' group.

"If its so bad, why do you keep using it" is a perfectly valid question for someone on the outside looking in, and makes outright banning if the word nigh-impossible.

I know quite a few hispanics who use the n-word endearingly to one another and to blacks, and I was dumb-founded when I went to a hookah club in Jersey last weekend to hear a bunch of Iranian guys and the DJ use it causally.

Tolerating things like this make you realize that usage intent is the most important part of context.
Not simply saying "group X cannot use word Y".

Similarly, its obvious that banned poster above deserved to be banned, as would anyone who posted something like "suck a dick you tranny fag". However, something like "I went to a club, and was astounded by the prevalence of trannies and gays" shouldn't be an instaban because nothing was meant by it.

 

[FoneBone]

This is exactly right. Which is why I said the surgery can help facilitate deception.

No, you implied that the surgery itself was an act of deception.

Also I don't think that trans women picking up men without disclosing is anywhere near as rampant as you're making it out to be

 

[afternoon delight]

i'm saying that we don't need to use those terms when there are easy alternatives

No, you're saying the term tranny is offensive because it's linked to the image and connotation of transexual porn. And I'm saying it's not.

 

[Shaka]

Can roll your eyes, but hes not far off. Despite what you find socially acceptable it is true, kids in school will talk like this and no one pays them no mind. White kid says it, and it's on.

Not round this parts. I've lost count of the times I've been called a nigger (without malice) Damned if it's not the most annoying and awkward shit.

 

[RiskyChris]

No, you're saying the term tranny is offensive because it's linked to the image and connotation of transexual porn. And I'm saying it's not.

Are you every transgendered individual?

 

[FoneBone]

No, you're saying the term tranny is offensive because it's linked to the image and connotation of transexual porn. And I'm saying it's not.

so despite every transgender person in this thread (i think) saying that they find it offensive, it doesn't matter because you disagree. Gotcha.

 

[lowrider007]

So for TG... Assuming you're male, let's pretend that Freaky Friday happened, and tomorrow, you woke up in the body of Lindsay Lohan (lol). You didn't choose to, it just happened. After getting your fill of er... exploring your new body, it's time to get on with your life. After a while, it's obvious there is no Disney ending, and you are stuck this way. Would you be comfortable living the rest of your life in a female body or would you resign yourself to your fate and be miserable? Would you do everything in your power to live your life the way that feels comfortable to you, as a male?

Sadly I don't think many men could answer that predicament honestly as they are too caught up in the sexual aspects of the feminine body, they would probably think it would awesome and fun and imagine that they would play with themselves all day and live as a sexy lesbian, you can't really explain to people that have never felt displaced about their body in such way what it really feels like, it's like telling children, "you don't know how good you've got it compared to when I was young', they just don't get it.

Sorry if that comes of as being a jerk to some people.

 

[harSon]

As an avid participant in these types of threads, I've realized an unsettling trend within them, which basically boils down to people believing that they have the right to dictate what others can and cannot be offended by.