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[Mesoian]

DmC has a way better combat system than any GoW game.

A poor man's DMC is still better than most action games out there.

Well, we can agree to disagree there.

You know what pisses me off the most about DmC though?

You have ninja theory, who is a company you know who can't do combat. So what can they do? Narrative. Story. Enslaved, regardless of how you feel about where that plot went, is a fucking MASTERCLASS on how to do characterization and emotion in a video game. I have NEVER seen emotion conveyed in someone's eye before that game. It is AMAZING how well that game makes the player know what the characters are feeling without having them say a word.

And they use almost none of that knowhow in DmC. It's such a wasted opportunity.

 

[Dahbomb]

That's because one of their writers for HS/Enslaved wasn't present for DmC. I forgot who it was though.

 

[Mesoian]

That's because one of their writers for HS/Enslaved wasn't present for DmC. I forgot who it was though.

ANDY FUCKING SERKIS.

Yo, you know who you should delay the production timeline for your game for? ANDY FUCKING SERKIS!!!!!

 

[PensivePen]

You have ninja theory, who is a company you know who can't do combat. So what can they do? Narrative. Story. Enslaved, regardless of how you feel about where that plot went, is a fucking MASTERCLASS on how to do characterization and emotion in a video game. I have NEVER seen emotion conveyed in someone's eye before that game. It is AMAZING how well that game makes the player know what the characters are feeling without having them say a word.

The stories of Enslaved and Heavenly Sword were both outsourced to outside writers, not handled by Ninja Theory internally. I believe DMC is Ninja Theory's first story that was handled without outside assistance. And it shows. The story in that game is not up to snuff compared to their other titles. At best I would say it's on par with the plot of DMC3, which was the best written game in that franchise prior. And even then I think that might be more credit than it deserves.

I think this interview highlights what Enslaved might have been had Ninja Theory gone it alone.

For example, I think the first serious discussion we had about the narrative was on the very first day that I, Tameem and the level designers all sat down together. We got to a section where Monkey was walking down a walkway, and he sees an escaping slave trying to pull himself up to the walkway. And instead of helping the guy up, Monkey kicked him in the face and sent him to his death. They thought that projected the idea that Monkey was a badass. Whereas, to me, it projected the idea that Monkey was a bit of a cunt.

 

[Muscle Wizard]

If Andy Serkis wrote DmC it would have been about Dante going deeper into hell to fight demons and it would have been a better homage than Dante's Infero game and not as heavy handed. This is my theory.

 

[Dahbomb]

The stories of Enslaved and Heavenly Sword were both outsourced to outside writers, not handled by Ninja Theory internally. I believe DMC is Ninja Theory's first story that was handled without outside assistance. And it shows. The story in that game is not up to snuff compared to their other titles. At best I would say it's on par with the plot of DMC3, which was the best written game in that franchise prior. And even then I think that might be more credit than it deserves.

I think this interview highlights what Enslaved might have been had Ninja Theory gone it alone.

Yeah this right here is what I wanted to say.

DmC was NT's first real attempt at writing their own story from scratch (although greatly borrowed from the DMC canon of course). I guess in some ways DmC exposed their actual writing talent.

 

[AgentOtaku]

I need to go back and properly play Enslaved merely just to see Andy S.' performance all the way through...

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I think this interview highlights what Enslaved might have been had Ninja Theory gone it alone.

We got to a section where Monkey was walking down a walkway, and he sees an escaping slave trying to pull himself up to the walkway. And instead of helping the guy up, Monkey kicked him in the face and sent him to his death. They thought that projected the idea that Monkey was a badass. Whereas, to me, it projected the idea that Monkey was a bit of a cunt..

And people wonder why Dino was so unlikable, even within the confines of his own game.

I will say this till im blue in the face. DMC3 showed way more character development than DmC. People get caught up in motorcycle nunchucks, edgy who-hoos and cheesy one-liners but the story of DMC3 fleshed out the coming of age of not one, but three characters. It did a extremely good of showing the struggles, both external and internal, they had to go through to become the people they were at the stories end.

The only criticism is there was not enough exposition exploring vergils motivations.

 

[AgentOtaku]

And people wonder why Dino was so unlikable, even within the confines of his own game.

I will say this till im blue in the face. DMC3 showed way more character development than DmC. People get caught up in motorcycle nunchucks, edgy who-hoos and cheesy one-liners but the story of DMC3 fleshed out the coming of age of not one, but three characters. It did a extremely good of showing the struggles, both external and internal, they had to go through to become the people they were at the stories end.

The only criticism is there was not enough exposition exploring vergils motivations.

Truth

 

[Uncle Rupee]

All six are series I'm either tired of or have no interest in. Congrats, Capcom!

 

[Koppai]

So if Lost Planet is good they should bring over E.X. Troopers ;3

 

[impact]

All six are series I'm either tired of or have no interest in. Congrats, Capcom!

You have no taste if you're not interested in Monster Hunter.

 

[abadguy]

Well, we can agree to disagree there.

You know what pisses me off the most about DmC though?

You have ninja theory, who is a company you know who can't do combat. So what can they do? Narrative. Story. Enslaved, regardless of how you feel about where that plot went, is a fucking MASTERCLASS on how to do characterization and emotion in a video game. I have NEVER seen emotion conveyed in someone's eye before that game. It is AMAZING how well that game makes the player know what the characters are feeling without having them say a word.

And they use almost none of that knowhow in DmC. It's such a wasted opportunity.

That's because they didn't outsource the writing as they did in HS (Rhianna Pratchett) and Enslaved ( Alex Garland) Ninja Theory suck ass when it comes to telling a story on their own as evidenced by DmC , which is basically "They Live" but "Edgy". Even if they were good at "narrative" that ain't why i play DMC.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

DmC is a WAY better action game than fucking Yaiba. LMAO!

DMC series (1,3,4) - A tier action games

DmC - B tier action game

Heavenly Swordj, NG3 and DMC2 - C tier action games

Yaiba - Z tier action game

I dunno dude, Heavenly Sword is probably Z-tier as well. It is REALLY REALLY bad.

 

[AgentOtaku]

That's because they didn't outsource the writing as they did in HS (Rhianna Pratchett) and Enslaved ( Alex Garland) Ninja Theory suck ass when it comes to telling a story on their own as evidenced by DmC , which is basically "They Live" but "Edgy".

Ugh, completely forgot Rhiana Pratchett wrote HS

absolute shit writer

 

[gioGAF]

No dragon's dogma?
F#%k you capcom

Lol, this is what I was thinking.

 

[Xenex]

Lost Planet? Really? REALLY?

That's a hard one to swallow.

My thought exactly, glad to see SF results tho - I cannie wait for SF V

 

[Uncle Rupee]

You have no taste if you're not interested in Monster Hunter.

There are plenty of other franchises I'd rather see more of from Capcom.

 

[Riposte]

I thought Dino was likeable enough by the end of the game. In fact, he's pretty much the only character I like. I don't think there is much of a gap between DmC and the rest of the series (disregarding 2, of course); the peak of the series is still DMC1 anyway.

 

[yurinka]

Were that true, Mega Man should would presumably be listed, given it did 30 million.

Onimusha is also at 8 million, so both of these outclass Lost Planet.

I understand not listing Marvel vs. Capcom since they don't own that.

MvsC3 and UMvsC3 combined sold 3.4M copies, and SFxT sold 1.7M. http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/business/million.html

Here you have a more or less updated list of their biggest selling series: http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/business/salesdata.html

Being smart I'd work on Street Fighter V, Resident Evil 7, Onimusha reboot as AAA games, and then Mega Man, Final Fight 4, and Ghosts'n Goblins as smaller downloadable projects.

And well since they like to port I'd say that DR, MH and AA for Sony platforms would also work too.

 

[Dahbomb]

I thought Dino was likeable enough by the end of the game. In fact, he's pretty much the only character I like. I don't think there is much of a gap between DmC and the rest of the series (disregarding 2, of course); the peak of the series is still DMC1 anyway.

Gap in terms of characters/storyline or in terms of game play?

Because the gap between DMC4 and DmC is pretty damn high in terms of game play.

 

[Nirolak]

MvsC3 and UMvsC3 combined sold 3.4M copies, and SFxT sold 1.7M.

Here you have a more or less updated list of their biggest selling series: http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/business/salesdata.html

Yeah that's actually the list I was using.

I was just finding it interesting they chose these six in particular to highlight, and positing whether or not that had any meaning beyond the ones that were obviously getting sequels.

 

[yurinka]

Yeah that's actually the list I was using.

I was just finding it interesting they chose these six in particular to highlight, and positing whether or not that had any meaning beyond the ones that were obviously getting sequels.

Yep, the other ones make sense because had recent successful games but Lost Planet... maybe the 'big PS4(or multi next gen) Capcom game that was going to be shown soon (E3?)" is Lost Planet 4, or maybe Sony asked them for another Vita game and they did go back for their LP2 tech demo. Or well... maybe they just introduced it like DR as their two best selling new IPs from this last gen that will end soon, like hinting that they may create new, powerful IPs for this next gen.

 

[Raonak]

DMC5 BELIEVE

 

[The Silver]

I still think its weird they haven't tried a new Dino Crisis, I can at least understand them thinking Onimusha doesn't have much appeal due to it being "too Japanese" or whatever but DC has potential as a more broadly appealing action or action/horror dinosaur game.

 

[Dahbomb]

I still think its weird they haven't tried a new Dino Crisis, I can at least understand them thinking Onimusha doesn't have much appeal due to it being "too Japanese" or whatever but DC has potential as a more broadly appealing action or action/horror dinosaur game.

I always thought that Lost Planet was the stand in for the Dino Crisis IP. Giant dinosaurs are replaced with giant Akrids.

They should think about making a DC game to coincide with Jurassic World though.

 

[Nirolak]

Yep, the other ones make sense because had recent successful games but Lost Planet... maybe the 'big PS4(or multi next gen) Capcom game that was going to be shown soon (E3?)" is Lost Planet 4, or maybe Sony asked them for another Vita game and they did go back for their LP2 tech demo. Or well... maybe they just introduced it like DR as their two best selling new IPs from this last gen that will end soon, like hinting that they may create new, powerful IPs for this next gen.

I'm currently thinking that one might be Resident Evil.

Capcom said they wanted to get down to 2.5 year development cycles for games that didn't have to go through a ton of identity change and I'm not convinced Capcom feels that Resident Evil needs to change a huge amount.

 

[Cave Johnson]

Ugh, completely forgot Rhiana Pratchett wrote HS

absolute shit writer

What? I liked HS's lore, it's the only reason why I put up with the bad game design choices.

 

[ohlawd]

Capcom I don't give a fuck what you say. Ace Attorney is an uber powerful series.

 

[ksdixon]

What sits in Capcom's vault that actually deserves a revive?

MegaMan and Dino Crisis come to mind immediately. DarkStalkers perhaps?

 

[UrbanDandy]

What, how can that be? The last of those two iterations didn't do so well. I know that they're part of their respective series, but I'm just scratching my head here.

 

[badcrumble]

I still think its weird they haven't tried a new Dino Crisis, I can at least understand them thinking Onimusha doesn't have much appeal due to it being "too Japanese" or whatever but DC has potential as a more broadly appealing action or action/horror dinosaur game.

Agreed, yeah. It'd be a delight to see DC done genuinely well in a modern game design.

It's too bad Capcom doesn't realize that there are different kinds of "Japanese." There's J-pop-idol-fashion stuff, which is indeed really fucking alienating, and then there's bizarre-Sengoku-era-filled-with-yokai Japanese like Onimusha 1 & 2, which is pretty great.

 

[Astral Dog]

I thought Dino was likeable enough by the end of the game. In fact, he's pretty much the only character I like. I don't think there is much of a gap between DmC and the rest of the series (disregarding 2, of course); the peak of the series is still DMC1 anyway.

I wonder how much they changed the story and character to be more likeable and similar to the original series after the reveal trailer

 

[Riposte]

Gap in terms of characters/storyline or in terms of game play?

Because the gap between DMC4 and DmC is pretty damn high in terms of game play.

I don't know what "game play" is suppose to mean here. I would say DMC4 is much more complex, perhaps the most complex 3D action game, but that doesn't necessarily mean that gap in quality is equal to the gap in complexity. These two are within a point out of 5 of each other at most and I rate DMC4 the second highest.

Why are you so quick to mention "storyline/characters" as an opposite to "game play"? That's just one piece of atmosphere or aesthetics; you could have mentioned visuals and/or sounds, which are arguably equally (or more) important in most cases.

Funny though, because DMC4 easily has better cutscenes and characters than DmC anyway. Plot suffers from the awkwardness of having to include the padding, but at that point it's all just an exercise in putting Dante in random situations and getting amusing results - like skits between the battles.

 

[Dahbomb]

What sits in Capcom's vault that actually deserves a revive?

MegaMan and Dino Crisis come to mind immediately. DarkStalkers perhaps?

I don't know about revive or deserve but I would love to see more games from these series:

Okami
Viewtiful Joe
Onimusha
Dino Crisis
Godhand
Megaman
Darkstalkers
Rival Schools


Riposte: If DMC4 has far more complex game play, better bosses/enemies, better characters, better cutscenes, is 60 FPS out of the gate and balanced around it, has more challenge.... how is the gap between the two games small? We are talking about quality here of course, for me when it comes to game play (in terms of combat complexity, how the mechanics play of each others, how they interact with enemies/bosses, the skill cap, the fluidity, the level of control, the speed/pace) DMC4 trumps DmC in that department to the point that it more than covers up differences in other aspects and then some.

 

[Riposte]

Riposte: If DMC4 has far more complex game play, better bosses/enemies, better characters, better cutscenes, is 60 FPS out of the gate and balanced around it, has more challenge.... how is the gap between the two games small?

You list a lot of things I didn't state, although I am not necessarily disagreeing, and, more importantly, outside complexity, it's left vague how great the difference is in these categories individually. If we accept all of that as true, then it only says DMC4 is a better game than DmC (which I would agree with), not to what degree, unless you think this is just a matter of addition or averaging.

We are talking about quality here of course, for me when it comes to game play (in terms of combat complexity, how the mechanics play of each others, how they interact with enemies/bosses, the skill cap, the fluidity, the level of control, the speed/pace) DMC4 trumps DmC in that department to the point that it more than covers up differences in other aspects and then some.

Would you really say the enemies and bosses of DMC4 can keep up with the complexity (or sheer power) of the combat system? I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of cool things going on with the enemies, but not enough where I can say the combat system is worth its very hefty weight in gold. That diminishes what I consider the greatest difference. I was largely disappointed with the bosses of DmC, but the fodder was more than adequate enough and in this series you'll take good fodder when you can get it. For what it's worth, level design/pacing in DmC is better for the most part. As much as I wouldn't want to do some of those platforming parts again, there are worse things, like the whole infamous repeating the whole game thing. It is a shame both games employ stupid methods of locking difficulty behind a dozen hours of play. I guess you could say I think every DMC outside the first is rather flawed.

 

[Novocaine]

Naw man, SF4 is great. I'm just...tired of it. I'll still get Ultra because honestly, the 1 thing they were going to do to get me back into SF4 was make it SF-Tekken. SF is one of those franchises that's still in good hands.

RE...well....I mean sure.

I'd rather have new stuff too, I want Capcom to surprise me. But I don't trust them to do it.

I agree with you on SF but that's kind of my point. That's never happened to me with Street Fighter since I put my very first dollar in a SF2 arcade machine.

 

[Arc Christelle]

I always giggle a bit when I read through Capcom threads and see posts from people asking for shit they won't buy, or wasn't buying in the first place.

 

[BIONIC-ARRRMMM!!]

It seems Capcom omitted Bionic Commando from that slide. Honest mistake I suppose.

 

[Dahbomb]

Would you really say the enemies and bosses of DMC4 can keep up with the complexity (or sheer power) of the combat system? I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of cool things going on with the enemies, but not enough where I can say the combat system is worth its very hefty weight in gold. That diminishes what I consider the greatest difference. I was largely disappointed with the bosses of DmC, but the fodder was more than adequate enough and in this series you'll take good fodder when you can get it. For what it's worth, level design/pacing in DmC is better for the most part. As much as I wouldn't want to do some of those platforming parts again, there are worse things, like the whole infamous repeating the whole game thing. It is a shame both games employ stupid methods of locking difficulty behind a dozen hours of play. I guess you could say I think every DMC outside the first is rather flawed.

DmC having color coated enemies makes its fodder enemies hot garbage. It's the antithesis of what a DMC game is about. This is why I consider DMC4's enemies better than DmC's. I don't think DMC4's enemies can keep up with the combat.... but neither can enemies of any other game if you just plant them into DMC4.

DMC1 is not without its flaws either. There are severe balance issues, the underwater/airplane missions are genuinely bad, the game does also feature some backtracking despite being the lowest length of all the DMC games, features repeated bosses with a few changes, features mediocre story and cutscene direction (compared to DMC3), the Style system might as well not exist and there are some legitimate control issues (like the input for aerial shooting and Air Raid overlapping meaning you can't shoot while locking on in the air if you are Devil triggered). And this is coming from someone who has played the game for over 2000 hours, gotten SB ranks on DMD for all missions and even finished the game with just E&I/FE on DMD mode. I think DMC1 is the most IMPORTANT action game of all time because it's simply the first to do a lot of things right and practically invented the genre due to various implementations of mechanics.... but it is definitely not without flaws which is why I can never give it a 10/10 (I would rate it 9.5/10). I would rate DMC1 the same as DMC3SE, both a 9.5. DMC3 had the near impossible task of not only gaining back the goodwill lost from DMC2 but also make up ground for it by pushing the series and the genre forward... which it did and makes it one of the most prime examples in gaming comebacks. Just like with DMC1, I can overlook some flaws in the game because it pushed the genre forward and set the benchmark of action games moving forward.

 

[bigkrev]

MvsC3 and UMvsC3 combined sold 3.4M copies, and SFxT sold 1.7M. http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/business/million.html

Here you have a more or less updated list of their biggest selling series: http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/business/salesdata.html

Being smart I'd work on Street Fighter V, Resident Evil 7, Onimusha reboot as AAA games, and then Mega Man, Final Fight 4, and Ghosts'n Goblins as smaller downloadable projects.

And well since they like to port I'd say that DR, MH and AA for Sony platforms would also work too.

The problem with Onimusha was that the first 3 games paid extra money to have digital likeness of actors in the game (The only one known to the western world was Jean Reno in Oni 3). They did a 4th game with no Actors, and it was a sales bomb. The first Onimusha also had the advantage of being one of the first "good" games on the PS2.

I think it's a series that does not make much sense to revive, personally.

 

[Stimpack]

Huh. I'm also surprised by Lost Planet being in there. Damn shame Dragon's Dogma didn't make it. That's about the only thing they're doing right now that I'm interested in.

 

[Curufinwe]

I thought Dino was likeable enough by the end of the game. In fact, he's pretty much the only character I like. I don't think there is much of a gap between DmC and the rest of the series (disregarding 2, of course); the peak of the series is still DMC1 anyway.

DMC3 SE is a much better game.

 

[Steverulez]

Huh. I'm also surprised by Lost Planet being in there. Damn shame Dragon's Dogma didn't make it. That's about the only thing they're doing right now that I'm interested in.

First one was a big success on 360, it's a shame the subsequent sequels (after pc/ps3 ports) didn't live up to the first one

 

[Tripon]

Huh. I'm also surprised by Lost Planet being in there. Damn shame Dragon's Dogma didn't make it. That's about the only thing they're doing right now that I'm interested in.

Agreed. If they really thought Lost Planet was something, they wouldn't have outsourced the series to High Voltage.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

If Andy Serkis wrote DmC it would have been about Dante going deeper into hell to fight demons and it would have been a better homage than Dante's Infero game and not as heavy handed. This is my theory.

Andy Serkis is a writer? I thought he just does mocap.

 

[badcrumble]

Would you really say the enemies and bosses of DMC4 can keep up with the complexity (or sheer power) of the combat system? I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of cool things going on with the enemies, but not enough where I can say the combat system is worth its very hefty weight in gold. That diminishes what I consider the greatest difference. I was largely disappointed with the bosses of DmC, but the fodder was more than adequate enough and in this series you'll take good fodder when you can get it. For what it's worth, level design/pacing in DmC is better for the most part. As much as I wouldn't want to do some of those platforming parts again, there are worse things, like the whole infamous repeating the whole game thing. It is a shame both games employ stupid methods of locking difficulty behind a dozen hours of play. I guess you could say I think every DMC outside the first is rather flawed.

I'm not sure that's a fair standard to apply, necessarily. That's a big part of why the Style system exists in these games: to help extend the (measurable) skill curve well past the point where the enemies cease to be a problem. It's definitely true that enemy design/enemy responsiveness to your moveset is an important half of the equation, but the point of basically EVERY well-made character action game is that some players will be challenged by the enemies and some players will work on finding increasingly stylish ways to whomp the enemies without ever taking damage.

I'll echo Dahbomb's criticisms of the DmC fodder enemies (though I *did* like the shield-generating witch enemies apart from the color-coding thing and the teleporting dual-sword-wielding demons). Enemies ought to be capable of defending themselves, but they shouldn't be totally immune to certain weapons.

Part of this, though, is why I increasingly think that DMC games need to be less linear. Bayonetta's got certain challenges in it (namely Rodin and the final Angel portal) that are purely optional and also vastly above the rest of the game in terms of their challenge level. It'd be great for DMC5 to have optional content in it that seriously tests the mettle of even the best players without ever feeling unfair.

I *do* think that DMC4 suffers for a bunch of the fodder enemies clearly being designed around Nero's moveset rather than Dante's, but when it really all comes down to i-frames, hitstun, and juggle, it's not like Dante's out of place in any sense - he's got many more tools to work with and some of them are just slightly further out of reach.