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Capcom: Western developers start with the visuals, while Japan focuses on gameplay.

More seriously I think that game design in the west has gone though a phase of being too cynical for it's own good. It is literally now just seen as an optimisation for an equation where you try to get people playing for x amount of time in order to produce y amount of additional sales or advertising revenue. Which is why many who fancy themselves a being "creative" people like to pretend that game design doesn't exist and that they are artists creating a new wave of fantastic narratives.
 
From the Japanese perspective, it seems the fun part of the game isn't pretending you're watching a movie and making stuff happen by pushing the button at the right time, but in mastering a game system and excelling at playing the game as a game.

Resident Evil? Metal Gear Solid? Final Fantasy?

Seems instead of east vs west the takeaway is big budget games made anywhere will focus on cinematics / graphics to garner more sales.
 
Interestingly enough, these developers have roots in the 'golden age' of PC games where gameplay was taken very seriously and some of the most well designed games of all time originated.

By comparison, there's a reason plenty of people say that Bioware, for example, and possibly Bethesda, have degenerated and continue to go downhill in terms of actual design, instead favoring making 'accessible' and cludgy experiences that fall apart in the details.

I don't see how that is specifically a western issue. I think it's a pretty standard idea that the more you dumb things down the more sales you will get. This goes across movies, music, games, books, etc.

There are plenty of examples of where gameplay is paramount in western game design. It doesn't matter if it comes from the "golden age of PC gaming" or not as they are brand new games being created right now.
 
Wow. So these games don't "count" then huh? Because that would go against your whole narrative that big western games are nothing but graphical fluff. Like I said before, play something other than Call of Duty and then get back to us.

So you would consider those games (Portal, DOTA, etc) to have budgets up there with Assassin's Creed? Because if you don't, then you've totally misunderstood my whole argument.

And also great job implying that the only western game I've played is COD (hell even a quick glance at my XBLA/PSN/Steam profiles will show that's not really the case). I've played plenty of western games too in my 25 years of being a gamer - from the days of Ultima 3 and Wizards and Warriors to the latest COD, even if my overall preference is Japanese games. Though I'll admit it's not entirely for the gameplay, the aesthetics and music do play a big part for me too.

I don't understand why it's so hard for people (especially PC gamers) to grasp that some people just simply prefer Japanese to western games. And yet those same people feel compelled to constantly attack those that do so.

Shenmune was Japanese, now that was a style over substance game.

Bayonetta is as much a holdover from glory days as CiV or Starcraft btw. They don't make them like they used to .And if Portal and Dota aren't big budget then neither is bayonetta.

Shenmue had a pretty deep Virtua Fighter-influenced combat system and much more interaction than your average big budget western game. I just named Bayonetta because it's a new IP, maybe I should have used Vanquish since it's a new IP in a style similar to (but far surpassing) the popular western games of the day, where it's quite obvious that mechanics, scoring systems, kinetic movement - were all more important than its rather spartan aesthetic design.
 
What he says is generally true. Which is why it boggles my mind that they make Ninja Theory, an art department that they call a game studio, in charge in a DMC game.



No. Itsuno is co-directing... meaning that he comes in from time to time to tell Ninja Theory "Good Job" before heading back to Japan to work on other projects. His name is on the project in an attempt to ease concerns about DmC.

Not really. I mean, he's not directing the game, that's for sure. But it's not like he only comes to say "good job" and walk away. Tameem stated that Itsuno gave frame-specific feedback to them, telling them what to do, to cut some animation frames to get more responsive combat, how much frames some moves needed and stuff like that.

I wouldn't give him the credit for making the game, but he does have a lot of influence.
 
A basic "option" is cranking up the resolution, and because it's missing you're cancelling your preorder and will miss out on a great gaming experience. It's your money, but that just blows my mind. Graphics > Gameplay right there.
If you can't enjoy a game because the resolution is too low, it won't be a great gaming experience in the first place, so he's not missing out anything. :P
 
I don't understand why it's so hard for people (especially PC gamers) to grasp that some people just simply prefer Japanese to western games. And yet those same people feel compelled to constantly attack those that do so.

I'm not attacking you. Why are you playing the victim here? I haven't made any generalizations about Japanese games in this thread. You are the one agreeing with a horrible generalization about western developed games based on a few ultra-huge budget examples.
 
And these scrubs call themselves 'hardcore gamers'.

They are hardware enthusiasts.

When I was into the PC overclocking scene and went to a lot of LANs I noticed most of the people pretty much sucked at games. They were there to show off their modded PCs, sweet overclocks, and games were one of the best ways to do that. I was thinking to myself "why would you spend $2000 on that PC if you suck at Quake 3". Later I realized they didn't really care how good they were at the game, they didn't buy the hardware to play the game, they bought the game to play with the hardware.
 
Eastern European devs are like the best of both worlds. Sure their games are a bit janky but they're highly ambitious.

Eastern European devs are too often just contrarians. Oh, those western devs put in auto saves and don't like killing the player now. What we should do is make it so the player has to quick save manually every 10 seconds and then has to go through events where they die and reload 95% of the time without any chance to learn from defeat or use any skill to win. We are so smart, fighting against dumbing down.
 
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If you're best argument against Japan game design is a game with one of the best combat systems ever, then you are proving his point.
 
So you would consider those games (Portal, DOTA, etc) to have budgets up there with Assassin's Creed? Because if you don't, then you've totally misunderstood my whole argument.

And also great job implying that the only western game I've played is COD (hell even a quick glance at my XBLA/PSN/Steam profiles will show that's not really the case). I've played plenty of western games too in my 25 years of being a gamer - from the days of Ultima 3 and Wizards and Warriors to the latest COD, even if my overall preference is Japanese games. Though I'll admit it's not entirely for the gameplay, the aesthetics and music do play a big part for me too.

I don't understand why it's so hard for people (especially PC gamers) to grasp that some people just simply prefer Japanese to western games. And yet those same people feel compelled to constantly attack those that do so.



Shenmue had a pretty deep Virtua Fighter-influenced combat system and much more interaction than your average big budget western game. I just named Bayonetta because it's a new IP, maybe I should have used Vanquish since it's a new IP in a style similar to (but far surpassing) the popular western games of the day, where it's quite obvious that mechanics, scoring systems, kinetic movement - were all more important than its rather spartan aesthetic design.

Shenmune really doesn't have more interaction than a modern big budget game, pretty much all of them have decent combat systems even if they mostly involve shooting stuff or they are big open world games with a lot more freedom. Most of the depth is also often in MP, not SP.

vanquish is a pretty low budget game, just like western games with low budget, they had to focus on gameplay because they don't have the budget for anything else (the main campaign was only 4 hours long f.e.). The big japanese stuff: Metal Gear, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy ect. is just as focused on presentation as it's western counterparts. Mainsteam AAA games are (a lot of them anyway) shallow no matter where they come from
 
American games currently focus on letting you do something that looks and sounds awesome, with the risk of the actual interaction not being very engagingly game-y.
Japanese games traditionally focus on letting the player repeat an engaging mechanic, with the risk of a nonsensical or incongruous narrative component.

This is probably the most concise and accurate way to sum up the difference that I've ever seen.
 
Both sided have disappointed heavily this gen. Both have made their great gems, and great catastrophes.
Both need an ass kicking next gen so that they get back in gear.

That's all. (I do think Japan has a better artstyle)
 
Since no one cared when I first posted it, the difference is that western game design is more concerned with streamlining the experience. With that in mind, it doesn't particularly matter that Final Fantasy XIII aims to be as flashy as any western AAA game (or a game like Super Meat Boy aims to be as mechanic focused as a Japanese classic). The battle system is a bread and butter example of Japanese evolution on old concepts. It's odd and different (and ultimately the most interesting thing about it), whereas common western game design would have it be straight-forward and more accessible (if not also an plain action game instead of a JRPG, like Skyrim is an action game).

I think Kajima misses the point. Disagreed with him before, in a longer post which I can't find.
 
Shenmune really doesn't have more interaction than a modern big budget game, pretty much all of them have decent combat systems even if they mostly involve shooting stuff or they are big open world games with a lot more freedom. Most of the depth is also often in MP, not SP.

vanquish is a pretty low budget game, just like western games with low budget, they had to focus on gameplay because they don't have the budget for anything else (the main campaign was only 4 hours long f.e.). The big japanese stuff: Metal Gear, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy ect. is just as focused on presentation as it's western counterparts. Mainsteam AAA games are (a lot of them anyway) shallow no matter where they come from

Metal Gear and (a decent portion of) FF are pretty gameplay/system heavy, even if they are both massively focused on presentation. Hell, even FF13 which is arguably the most shallow entry in the series, still had a great and original combat system. Even in their big budget releases, when the long-ass cinemas are over with, the Japanese still don't forget you're playing a game. Arcade games are another good example - SEGA at one time had the most powerful technology available (Lockheed Martin Model 1/2/3), what did they use it for? A shallow walk through explosions and scripted events with the occasional QTE? No, they used it to make one of the deepest fighting game series ever.

You can still find many western games that try to deliver the cinematic "AAA" experience on a limited budget - Witcher 2 (simplified systems from Witcher 1), Homefront, etc.

Of course you will find exceptions to the Japan = gameplay first / West = graphics first, but generally I agree with the Capcom guys.

Since no one cared when I first posted it, the difference is that western game design is more concerned with streamlining the experience. With that in mind, it doesn't particularly matter that Final Fantasy XIII aims to be as flashy as any western AAA game (or a game like Super Meat Boy aims to be as mechanic focused as a Japanese classic). The battle system is a bread and butter example of Japanese evolution on old concepts. It's odd and different (and ultimately the most interesting thing about it), whereas common western game design would have it be straight-forward and more accessible (if not also an plain action game instead of a JRPG, like Skyrim is an action game).

I think Kajima misses the point. Disagreed with him before, in a longer post which I can't find.

Yup, western game devs want people playing their game through to the end (you can see lots of western dev interviews that talk about how many players see to the end of their games), and will streamline/do skinnerbox incentives to keep people playing. It's why you see a lot of fans of older western games frequently complain about streamlining (or "Xboxification" as it was called a few years ago). I guess if you are spending millions upon millions to render that really cool looking post-apocalyptic cityscape and the awesome semi-interactive helicopter chase scripted event for chapter 9, you are gonna want people playing to see that! Japanese devs don't really seem to give a shit - you're not concerned enough to better yourself to see the rest of the game, you don't get to see it. Mastery of the game is a reward in itself, getting to see new levels and cool cinemas are an added bonus on top of that. :P

Also, btw guys - some of the big budget, gameplay heavy western games like Civ, Starcraft... if these weren't already extremely successful franchises from the golden age of PC gaming, how many publishers would take a chance on them today?
 
Since no one cared when I first posted it, the difference is that western game design is more concerned with streamlining the experience. With that in mind, it doesn't particularly matter that Final Fantasy XIII aims to be as flashy as any western AAA game. The battle system is a bread and butter example of Japanese evolution on old concepts. It's odd and different (and ultimately the most interesting thing about it), whereas common western game design would have it be straight-forward and more accessible (if not also an plain action game instead of a JRPG, like Skyrim is an action game).

I think Kajima misses the point. Disagreed with him before, in a longer post which I can't find.

i'd argue FFXIII is the most streamlined JRPG i have ever played. The battle system is not bad but the input of your attacks couldn't be more streamlined or simplified. You only choose the general tactic. Shops are accessible from your savepoint, in general everything can be done pretty much anytime and you only have to move forward.

I actually liked the combat system btw.

Metal Gear and (a decent portion of) FF are pretty gameplay/system heavy, even if they are both massively focused on presentation. Hell, even FF13 which is arguably the most shallow entry in the series, still had a great and original combat system. Even in their big budget releases, when the long-ass cinemas are over with, the Japanese still don't forget you're playing a game. Arcade games are another good example - SEGA at one time had the most powerful technology available (Lockheed Martin Model 1/2/3), what did they use it for? A shallow walk through explosions and scripted events with the occasional QTE? No, they used it to make one of the deepest fighting game series ever.

And of course you can still find many western games that try to deliver the cinematic "AAA" experience on a limited budget - Witcher 2 (simplified systems from Witcher 1), Homefront, etc.

Of course you will find exceptions to the Japan = gameplay first / West = graphics first, but generally I agree with the Capcom guys.

Splinter Cell was just as system heavy as MGS (and surpassed it in depth at one point), FF is no more system heavy than Diablo, New Vegas, The Witcher, Dragon Age ect. let's compare the games with the same genre. Capcom of all companies is not a good example for substance over style.

Crysis was not a shallow game either btw, neither was BF3 or Gears or most other tech showcases.
 
Basically, his statement is a wash.

You can find examples pro (demon's souls, GT5) and contra (FFXIII, MGS4, RE5).

I'd say it's more game budget correlated thing than geographical.

Big budget releases tend to be highly polished but low risk in the gameplay department.
Low budget games, the other way.


Western developers just tend to release more AAA budget games than Japanese.
 
Hey look, the sky is blue!

I always felt like the west is just inflating budgets because they can't come up with any great ideas, so let's waste it on the visuals. It also shouldn't surprise anyone that the west supported the Sega CD with their FMV games. We now call them quick time events.
 
Hey look, the sky is blue!

I always felt like the west is just inflating budgets because they can't come up with any great ideas, so let's waste it on the visuals. It also shouldn't surprise anyone that the west supported the Sega CD with their FMV games. We now call them quick time events.

I am hoping that future generations of gamers will look back on this generation's bland cinematic scriptfests with the same disdain we have for those Sega CD FMV games of the mid-90's.
 
I think they're having trouble meshing with Ninga theory and their aesthetics, and being assured by Ninja Theory that "this is how the west does things, rhats what you wanted right?" ..I don't think Capcom Japan knew the first thing about Ninja theory, I blame their western employee, that dude with the Mike Tyson head that's always at Dmc reveals, him and someone from Ninja theory must be really close and he did them a solid and got them this high profile gig. Cause Enslaved was feces, that should have been a nail in the coffin but then out of the blue: "suprise" they're perfect for DMC!.
 
I guess someone already said this, but it's funny how some of the best selling games this generation, like all the COD games, are Western and focus on gameplay.

Also, what Capcom said is kind of stupid. Making great visuals usually take more money and most of the bigger titles are western, which means they spent more time on the visuals. That doesn't mean they don't focus on the gameplay.

By contrast, many of the Japanese titles that apparently "focus on gameplay" aren't really doing all that well.. and they're definitely titles not made by Capcom, that's for sure. I'm not saying that's bad by itself... but the statement is kind of lame.
 
Capcom doesn't have any moral high ground on this front. They've pushed out two fighting games in the last 18 months long before the whole "game logic and getting the systems down" process was close to completion.

This isn't an east v. west issue. It's a publisher issue.
 
This seems to be another case where "Western games" is narrow-mindedly used as a euphamism for "big-budget Western console action games." There's a lot more going on in Western game development than that, and there always has been.
 
I think there's a germ of truth to this (extremely broad) generalization -- but I think labelling the western focus as "graphics" may be reductive and bit misleading. What many western developers (and their western customers) seem to focus on these days are setting and scenario.

For example, if the primary concept on which a game is based is something like "fly around a sci-fi galaxy solving problems of alien-human relations" or "explore a medieval fantasy world and get involved in its happenings", then the actual genre and mechanics of the game become a secondary consideration, there only to serve that scenario. That focus doesn't mean you can't end up with good mechanics, but it does mean there's more risk they'll be sloppy or underdeveloped, because they're not the point of the game -- the point is to experience the setting and scenario. This can also make the mechanics a target for excessive streamlining, as pointed out by Riposte -- perversely, they can end up being considered an obstruction to this experience.

Conversely, as pointed out by Kaijima and others, many Japanese devs do seem to make inherently interesting mechanical systems a primary focus of their efforts -- sometimes at the expense of an engaging setting/scenario/"world".

My favourite games are often a synthesis of both approaches, achieving the greatest immersion through the combination of rewarding mechanical systems, and a compelling setting/scenario -- giving you a cool world, and fun things to do in it. There are plenty of examples of games that manage this, produced in either region.
 
It's an over generalization, but I do agree that Japanese developers tend to have a stronger focus on mechanics from the ground up, at least if we're looking at the big budget games. Obviously, there are tons of great western games in this vein (I'm a lifelong Civ fan), but they tend to be more in the mid range and smaller budget titles.


Yeah, that does a great job of proving his point. It has one of the best battle systems ever made, and the game is a ton of fun to play.

Yeah, once you unlock it after 20 hours.

Screw that, its a fine example.

Try two hours. The battle system doesn't take 20 hours to be unlocked, and this is one of the sillier memes related to the game. YOu don't get to change your party up at will until later, but the battle system is unlocked after two hours or so.
 
I guess someone already said this, but it's funny how some of the best selling games this generation, like all the COD games, are Western and focus on gameplay.

Call of Duty is absolutely not focused on gameplay mechanics.

To the extent that gameplay is a major consideration in its design, it's A) To make the gameplay experience 'smooth' (eg. high framerate on consoles, eschewing more gameplay-oriented mechanics like projectile size, speed, variable trajectories, so that the game can use 'real' guns that are immediately intuitive, etc), and B) to facilitate 'awesome things' happening to just about each and every player (ie: Why every person who has ever played Call of Duty and had arms has at least one story within their first two weeks of playing about that one game where they went 20/0). Neither of these things are the same as the 'mechanics, for the sake of solid mechanics' approach that is more common in Japanese game development.

That's assuming we're talking specifically about multiplayer, anyway. It's even more obviously not about gameplay mechanics in the campaign.
 
That sounds remarkably ass-backwards given the time and money JP companies spend on assets and CG (Square's $50k FFXIII assets, anyone?)

When have the best looking games in the industry ever not been Japanese in origin? Rarely. Very rarely.

Joke post?

The most visually stunning games of the generation are not made in Japan.

I don't understand why it's so hard for people (especially PC gamers) to grasp that some people just simply prefer Japanese to western games. And yet those same people feel compelled to constantly attack those that do so.

This goes both ways.
 
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