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[mid83]

I’ve seen a lot of references to socialism, or even Marxism in some cases, on various political threads here. I know the users here average pretty far to the left, especially compared to the average population, so that isn’t all that surprising. With that said, I saw a post on PoliGAF that said Bernie’s youth support basically shows that within younger age groups, people have their foot on the throat of capitalism.

I guess it made me curious just how widespread this idea is. Do many people here want us to move on from capitalism? Why or why not? What system do you think would work better and why? If you are in support of capitalism, why?

I know people search post history here, so yes, if you look at my post history, I consider myself a moderate Republican. I may not agree with most of the views about this topic here, but I am interested in knowing why people feel this way. Reading about all sides of an issue are vital to being informed and educated on the issues. I don’t really see the point of consuming news or information that only confirms what you already believe. So please don’t think this is some attempt at a troll. I just want to read an interesting discussion about GAF’s views on capitalism, either for or against.

 

[King Tubby]

Unfettered capitalism will devour itself. I don't think the US will ever move away entirely from capitalism, but we need a government that will defend the interests of the people from the power of corporations.

 

[Stereogatari]

Yay. But workers (especially really productive ones) should get bigger slice of the business owners' pie.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Bernie and supporters are not against capitalism (i.e.. market economy). They're just further toward the planned economy end on the planned economy — market economy spectrum

 

[Vicetrailia]

Yay, but needs balancing via gov intervention.
Gaping challenges should actually be solved.

 

[bebop242]

Pure 100 percent capitalism for everything? Fuck no. A mix of capitalism and socialism and maybe sprinkles of other models would be ideal.

 

[Pantaghana]

Unchecked capitalism demands constant growth, which is unsustainable long-term. Eventually it will run out of space and collapse, hurting the poorest (also the least responsible for the mess) the most.
It also benefits the minority, people here are part of the majority and very few are under the "temporarily embarrassed millionaire" illusion.

 

[Stumpokapow]

There are countries other than the United States in the world and some of them are also free and prosperous.

 

[Spica]

I'm pretty passionately against capitalism and believe in abolishing private property, money, wage labor, and markets. I identify as an anarchist communist. Unfortunately, I think I'm in the extreme minority on that both on GAF and elsewhere.

 

[SMattera]

If you are in support of capitalism, why?

It's pulled more people out of poverty than any other system that's ever been tried.

 

[mieumieu]

i was a ayn rand supporter in my youth but has since realized some points

1. some work has to be done by government and no one else can do it
2. capitalism has to be checked and balanced

so yeah basically capitalism with checks is the way to go

and socialism really is a quite unbrella term that does not mean much specifically... social democrats still acknowledge the great power of free markets.

It's pulled more people out of poverty than any other system that's ever been tried.

if you want to know the embarrassingly inefficiency of planned economy just look at chinese agriculture history during 1958-1980. or north korea today. or just ask my dad when he only ate rice with soy sauce and no meat orvegetable during his youth.

 

[DeathyBoy]

I'm pretty passionately against capitalism and believe in abolishing private property, money, wage labor, and markets. I identify as an anarchist communist. Unfortunately, I think I'm in the extreme minority on that both on GAF and elsewhere.

I'm 50/50 myself.

 

[kirblar]

Easy Yay, it's done an absurd amount of good and is far better than the alternatives. It just needs to be better regulated.

 

[Always-honest]

Just take the best of different ideas.
Capitalism alone sucks.

 

[SalvaPot]

I'll give you my answer... for the right price.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Yay for regulated Capitalism with ideas borrowed from Socialism, such as universal healthcare and a safety net for all.

Nay for unregulated Capitalism

Pretty simple, really.

 

[Relativ9]

The best countries in the world have a mix of capitalism and socialism. Socialism for basic human and societal needs, capitalism for everything else (including private "elite" alternatives to those basic human needs).

 

[Future]

General idea of capitalism is good. Work harder, get paid better. Strive to do better

Those at the top can ruin it for everyone below. So you need regulations for those at the top (laws against monopolies for example). So true free market capitalism can never be a thing

Not everyone is born on equal footing. Location, finances, education quality, prejudice etc all can dictate what opportunities people can get. These people need help.

In other cases, a bad case of luck (health problems, natural disaster, company downsizing and layoffs) can severely alter your path and put you on a slippery slope. Those people need help.

Society at large needs social policies to handle what society actually is: a massive amount of people that cannot fit in one size fits all solutions. People need empathy to understand why people that need help deserve it, even if they don't need help at the moment. Because someday they will and will appreciate society for it

 

[Izuna]

I wish the whole world was Norway. So, yay (with a heavy dose of socialist health care and benefits).

Why does the world benefit from a system that allows for poverty and homelessness to be no one's problem?

More over, I don't think it is government policy that has everything to do with a kind and high-standard society, it's culture and the spread of good values.

Which, by the way, religion isn't very good at spreading.

 

[Staccat0]

GIMME DAT BLEND

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Not from America. Nay. Working with the market is a different question.

 

[kavanf1]

Capitalism is the least worst option. It can be kept in check by the government having strong social policies to look after all of its population. I think when most people talk about socialism they are talking about capitalism with a strong social element.

Socialism in isolation is an ideology based on the notion that the government knows how to spend your money better than you do. If there's one thing more fucked up than people working to accumulate wealth for themselves at the expense of others, it's people who think that they know best how to spend other people's money. Both are prone to absolute corruption, because people are at their core. Socialism on its own ultimately can't work because it ends up exactly the same as the worst aspects of capitalism, only with zero accountability.

Spoiler

I doubt GAF will like this post but fuck it.

 

[liliththepale]

Yea.

With responsible restrictions of course.

 

[Drinkel]

My basic view is that capitalism is inherently wasteful and inefficient. Inefficient systems bothers me. What should be its replacement, I'm not sure yet.

 

[Guess Who]

I think most people here believe in some form of "capitalism with checks and regulations."

It's just that opinions vary incredibly widely on what those "checks and regulations" should be.

 

[Relativ9]

Capitalism is the least worst option. It can be kept in check by the government having strong social policies to look after all of its population. I think when most people talk about socialism they are talking about capitalism with a strong social element.

Socialism in isolation is an ideology based on the notion that the government knows how to spend your money better than you do. If there's one thing more fucked up than people working to accumulate wealth for themselves at the expense of others, it's people who think that they know best how to spend other people's money. Both are prone to absolute corruption, because people are at their core. Socialism on its own ultimately can't work because it ends up exactly the same as the worst aspects of capitalism, only with zero accountability.

Spoiler

I doubt GAF will like this post but fuck it.

I like it...and I'm Norwegian.

 

[Marauder Shields]

Absolutely. Capitalism is great.

 

[213372bu]

Capitalism is a great idea that can be really beneficial.

Unchecked capitalism is trash.

Sorta regulated capitalism is still trash.

Regulated capitalism in the favor of the many is pretty good.

We're not at the last part yet.

 

[hobblygobbly]

Capitalist market economy + high taxes == fund a structurally sound social welfare system (health care, education, etc). This is common in Europe like Germany (social state). I am for social democracies. You can have elements of both capitalism and socialism and I personally feel in the current age we live in its the best system in general. Both systems on their own are not good.

 

[kavanf1]

I'm pretty passionately against capitalism and believe in abolishing private property, money, wage labor, and markets. I identify as an anarchist communist. Unfortunately, I think I'm in the extreme minority on that both on GAF and elsewhere.

Have you read Animal Farm?

 

[Nickle]

Capitalism is the least worst option. It can be kept in check by the government having strong social policies to look after all of its population. I think when most people talk about socialism they are talking about capitalism with a strong social element.

Socialism in isolation is an ideology based on the notion that the government knows how to spend your money better than you do. If there's one thing more fucked up than people working to accumulate wealth for themselves at the expense of others, it's people who think that they know best how to spend other people's money. Both are prone to absolute corruption, because people are at their core. Socialism on its own ultimately can't work because it ends up exactly the same as the worst aspects of capitalism, only with zero accountability.

Spoiler

I doubt GAF will like this post but fuck it.

This is correct. We may find a way to make true socialism work sometime in the distant future, but for now capitalism with a sprinke of socialism is our best option.

 

[kinoki]

We live in such wealth in the western world no matter what income level you have. Socialism is only a matter of time. Capitalism is on its last dying breath. It's only a temporary solution. Once we figure out how to get the wealth of things spread out across the globe we've beaten capitalism. But until then we need a system distribution.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

 

[mrklaw]

Unrestricted capitalism is fucked. Even though the intent is to improve things for the population, self interest for corporations and financial institutions fuck it up big time.

The only way capitalism can work is with significant safeguards by the government to prevent shit like the banking crisis. Or investors literally betting on countries collapsing like they did when the UK exited the EMU.

If you have open competition between companies but in a controlled framework of regulation then I'm sure many people would consider that watered down capitalism or even socialism. Which I'd be fine with.

At the end of the day, it's supposed to serve the people, right? Capitalism really isn't doing that.

 

[Malfunky]

I'm pretty passionately against capitalism and believe in abolishing private property, money, wage labor, and markets. I identify as an anarchist communist. Unfortunately, I think I'm in the extreme minority on that both on GAF and elsewhere.

comrade. there is red and black everywhere! we are around.

 

[Shuggananas]

Yes the rich needs to get richer it's the only way things can work

 

[Dice]

I'm a full blown Communist.

But not Marxist.

 

[GasProblem]

Regulated capitalism with checks and balances yay.

 

[213372bu]

Unrestricted capitalism is fucked. Even though the intent is to improve things for the population, self interest for corporations and financial institutions fuck it up big time.

The only way capitalism can work is with significant safeguards by the government to prevent shit like the banking crisis. Or investors literally betting on countries collapsing like they did when the UK exited the EMU.

If you have open competition between companies but in a controlled framework of regulation then I'm sure many people would consider that watered down capitalism or even socialism. Which I'd be fine with.

At the end of the day, it's supposed to serve the people, right? Capitalism really isn't doing that.

I dunno where this comes from, and I hear it from a lot of people.

The idea that Capitalism can't work without regulation doesn't mean that Capitalism doesn't inherently work or is so far removed to be called Capitalism.

 

[SMattera]

Or investors literally betting on countries collapsing like they did when the UK exited the EMU.

Are you talking about Soros shorting the pound? If so can you please explain (specifically) what you find improper.

 

[Stereogatari]

We live in such wealth in the western world no matter what income level you have.

It's so true and yet I still want MORE MORE MORE.

 

[Darth Karja]

In an ideal world, Communism would be great. But that's not how it works. So in this world I think regulated capitalism with some socialism would work best.

 

[Log4Girlz]

Free markets gave us things like child labor, slavery, and events like the potato famine. Fuck free markets. Regulate the shit out of capitalism.

 

[Rentahamster]

Yay. It's done a lot to reduce extreme poverty in modern history.,

Adopting a liberal, democratic, capitalistic government is almost a guarantee for success.

 

[Kain]

Thermodynamics baby.

That said, social democracy as Germany sold and south Europe bought is shit. The Scandinavian model works, but it has to be severely adapted to other countries for it to work outside of the original sources.

 

[Spica]

comrade. there is red and black everywhere! we are around.

Thank you, it makes me happy to know. I've rarely met anyone who shares these beliefs so it can feel very isolating at times.

Have you read Animal Farm?

I have not, why do you ask?

 

[Foffy]

Yay. It's done a lot to reduce extreme poverty in modern history.,

Adopting a liberal, democratic, capitalistic government is almost a guarantee for success.

The most capitalist country around today - America - has produced the largest volume of poverty and inequality of the developed world. Look in its own borders. Its failure is it's only that.

I think the notion of ownership, control, and the like are all bullshit, but I'll save the meta not-self commentary for another day. Knowing getting that type of model demands the social rejection of various norms, memes, and cultural illusions, I would not mind capitalism if it had a net, not a void. I can settle for that with the various ghosts we have.

I think the social mandation of labor and how it's used as an ultimatum is one of the greatest human failures ever evocated onto this world, because it renders the "have nots" to suffer, even through no fault of their own. At the very least, the future demands redistribution of wealth as we enter the Second Machine Age, and while America will probably be the last place ever to accept this, if it does not, its society will literally burn to ashes before the end of this century.

I guess I am full blown Nay to pure Capitalism. Such a social model and its ideas produces holes and illusions, so it makes it hard to justify by itself.

 

[Tesseract]

i'm whatever sweden is

if america doesn't trajecorate (wut) its systems to incoming automation, it will fall

 

[FStop7]

Yay but there needs to be strict governance, proper taxation, and a strong public infrastructure.

 

[Malfunky]

Have you read Animal Farm?

Animal Farm was written by a hardcore socialist who expressed admiration for anarchist-communists and the like (read Homage to Catalonia). It's an anti-Stalinist work, not anti-communist or socialist, if that's where you're aiming.

Socialism doesn't need to have anything to do with "government knowing best," by the way. It's about the social ownership of the means of production. Worker owned and run companies. Industry for use, rather than profit. Communes, unions, and the like instead of corporations and private (different from personal) ownership. Government is only an apparatus to confederate these units, and even that is theoretically made obsolete under full communism. Abolition of the state is one of the ultimate aims of most left-wing ideologies, Marxist communists and anarchists alike. Bernie Sanders and his "Nordic country" examples and aspirations aren't really under this fold. He and they are a social democrat and social democracies, which no serious socialist would really claim to be ideal.