Support NeoGAF

[What did he mean by this?]

How many movies did the ending to this setup?

Black Panther - They'll probably announce a week from now that Evans and Stan will be in it.
Spider-Man - Tony Stark will adopt him literally figuratively.
Thunderbolts - If the Avengers are criminals now, then Ross and UN need their own team.
Infinity War - something something Vision
Thor 3 - "Where are Thor and Banner right now?"

 

[Quick]

Yeah, I'm not totally sure how we get Zemo going from "You think I wanted more of you in the world?" to leading a group of anti-heroes/villains. But at the same time I can totally see Ross putting together the Thunderbolts as a government-backed team to replace the Avengers (since most of them are AWOL now), and they end up getting wrecked in IW when Thanos arrives.

I meant that more as a general note. We have this character and this location, both associated with The Thunderbolts.

I don't actually know how Zemo could wind up joining a team of enhanced people, which goes against his MO in Civil War. Maybe he's forced into it, or he has a further agenda which The Thunderbolts would only help in achieving.

I'll let the writers figure that out, if Marvel ever gets around to incorporating them in a movie, or giving them their own movie.

 

[PrankT]

Watching this a second time, it's mostly even better. There's a lot of subtle texture in the performances and tiny details that just fit.

But, the central problem i see people having with the film came into focus for me this time: they do a terrible job of ever properly articulating Cap's perspective and rely on the audience having seen Winter Solider to understand why Cap doesn't trust the government any more.

They also don't have him explicitly drive home the "they went after Bucky with orders to kill on sight based on just a tiny bit of easily faked evidence... which was in fact faked!"

That's the only thing that jarred me on second viewing after reading all the critical stuff spilled here.

Also, it's surprising how many reviews I saw mistake Lagos, Nigeria (opening) and/or Vienna, Austria (UN bombing) for Wakanda. We don't see Wakanda until the mid-credits scene.

Edit: I still thoroughly loved it, my point here is that on this viewing I could see where the "team cap is always wrong" camp is coming from.

I thought his view was pretty clear that political agendas change and he wasn't comfortable with anyone else pulling the strings and controlling that power, regardless of who they were. Didn't think it needed more background, but perhaps I need to see it again as well.

 

[icespide]

How many movies did the ending to this setup?

Black Panther - They'll probably announce a week from now that Evans and Stan will be in it.
Spider-Man - Tony Stark will adopt him literally figuratively.
Thunderbolts - If the Avengers are criminals now, then Ross and UN need their own team.
Infinity War - something something Vision
Thor 3 - "Where are Thor and Banner right now?"

black panther and spidey for sure. the others you mention are a stretch

 

[thecouncil]

Just because he's a super soldier and has enhanced strength, it DOES NOT mean he can suddenly become heavier and counter the lift generated by the helicopter that was already in the air.

When he jumped and SOMEHOW weighed the chopper down enough to bring it back to the pad, that whole scene lost any good-will I was willing to give it.

When he bounces his shield off multiple people and it returns to him, it doesn't keep me from thinking it's freakin' awesome despite the reality of the situation.

 

[Discotheque]

It would be pretty stupid to throw Zemo into a team now or even revisit him tbh

I know marvel has a villain problem and people seem to think the only solution is to make them recurring (but the best of them in the genre rarely have been so.....) but this one was pretty good and really felt like a one off imo

 

[HoJu]

someone at my screening clapped when Hawkeye first appeared lol

 

[RoninChaos]

I can't deal with Aunt May being hot.

 

[NastyBook]

Panther was the ONLY hero able to ultimately keep his personal anguish in check at the end.

True, but for Stark, his anguish was also doubled due to Steve's betrayal of his trust by not telling him he knew that it was Bucky that murdered his parents. I had absolutely no problem with Tony snapping there and kicking both their asses. I wouldn't have been surprised if BP had reacted the same if their positions were switched.

 

[Quick]

black panther and spidey for sure. the others you mention are a stretch

Ross asking Cap where Thor and Banner currently are does come in with Thor: Ragnarok, since Ruffalo is in it.

With Infinity War, the Infinity Stones do come into play, with Vision possessing one of them.

Thunderbolts are probably the only stretch.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

True, but for Stark, his anguish was also doubled due to Steve's betrayal of his trust by not telling him he knew that it was Bucky that murdered his parents. I had absolutely no problem with Tony snapping there and kicking both their asses. I wouldn't have been surprised if BP had reacted the same if their positions were switched.

If he wanted to beat their asses that would be one thing. I'd be in support of that even.

He clearly didn't want to stop at a beatdown though.

 

[Fhtagn]

I thought his view was pretty clear that political agendas change and he wasn't comfortable with anyone else pulling the strings and controlling that power, regardless of who they were. Didn't think it needed more background, but perhaps I need to see it again as well.

Yeah but that's an easily refuted argument outside the context of hydra, etc. it's an anarchist argument actually. "There is no authority but yourself." - Crass

 

[Ashhong]

The Speech is great when given to Spidey. But for the MCU, it's perfect for Peggy.

I feel like Sharon Carter really did it a disservice though. Poorly acted scene imo

 

[icespide]

Ross asking Cap where Thor and Banner currently are does come in with Thor: Ragnarok, since Ruffalo is in it.

With Infinity War, the Infinity Stones do come into play, with Vision possessing one of them.

Thunderbolts are probably the only stretch.

I dunno a few lines doesn't seem like "setting up a movie" to me

 

[carlsojo]

I can't deal with Aunt May being hot.

Neither could Tony!

 

[DeathyBoy]

I feel like Sharon Carter really did it a disservice though. Poorly acted scene imo

No, you move.

 

[DedalusJoyce]

I really liked Zemo I do don't see why people have a problem with him. When a movie is basically based around the concept of internal rift within the avengers you can't have a villain with some shitty world domination plan. His motivations were clear and I could sympathies with him can't be said for any other marvel villain so far.

 

[inky]

I can't deal with Aunt May being hot.

Spoiler

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Yeah but that's an easily refuted argument outside the context of hydra, etc. it's an anarchist argument actually. "There is no authority but yourself." - Crass

HYDRA infiltrating Shield?
The WSC trying to nuke a major metropolis?
Ross creating Abomination?
Banner and Tony creating an AI authority that goes on rampage?
AIM controlling the VP?

I mean, disagree, fine. But to reduce it to "lol just HYDRA" is silly.

 

[Ashhong]

No, you move.

Should have given the line to Cap, who says it later to someone as something Peggy told him before

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I feel like Sharon Carter really did it a disservice though. Poorly acted scene imo

I don't know if I'd call it poorly acted, but I guess it did have room for improvement. Probably should have hit me a bit harder than it did.

 

[Quick]

I dunno a few lines doesn't seem like "setting up a movie" to me

I wouldn't say Ross talking about Thor's and Hulk's whereabouts or Vision talking about "understanding" the mind stone are legit set-ups to Infinity War or Ragnarok exactly, but it does at least let the viewer think about it.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Should have given the line to Cap, who says it later to someone as something Peggy told him before

I just find it weird they cast an actress known for TV work as Sharon, and never had her appear in AOS.

 

[carlsojo]

Just saw it. Thought Zemo was awesome. Love that it was just an ordinary guy taking on the Avengers.

 

[MMarston]

Spoiler

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Fhtagn]

HYDRA infiltrating Shield?
The WSC trying to nuke a major metropolis?
Ross creating Abomination?
Banner and Tony creating an AI authority that goes on rampage?
AIM controlling the VP?

I mean, disagree, fine. But to reduce it to "lol just HYDRA" is silly.

Exactly!

And how many got mentioned in this film, by Cap? None.

That's my point.

(I loved this film btw, my only point is that on my second viewing I get where people who think Cap was dumb in this film are coming from; they didn't have him defend his position well.)

 

[PadWarrior]

Alright taking our older child to see this morning. Will go again with the wife when we can get someone to watch the baby. Can't wait!!!

 

[dankir]

I think if Suicide Squad does well then Marvel will decide on a Thunderbolts film.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Exactly!

And how many got mentioned in this film, by Cap? None.

That's my point.

(I loved this film btw, my only point is that on my second viewing I get where people who think Cap was dumb in this film are coming from; they didn't have him defend his position well.)

I think the biggest weakness of the film is indeed how packed it is. It assumes you have seen all the movies, so it also assumes you remember all the things I listed. Which most people probably wouldn't.

His position is definitely more defensible than the movie lets you think. Not to say that he's necessarily "right," but still.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

I just want to say my man that Zemo had upside down in the water death sink, went out like a baws.

"Heil Hydra!" and he was out.

Spoiler

Although I wondered why he couldn't just lift his head out the the sink when Zemo left...

 

[Sean C]

I really liked the movie, and it's a damn impressive achievement at what is basically an Avengers movie, but on some level I'm kind of disappointed at how much Captain America's own corner of the cinematic universe was overshadowed as a result of cramming all the Avengers into it. This is most obviously the case with Sharon, who's barely in it at all, but even Bucky gets very little space in the story for characterization after being reawakened in the last movie. Like the moment where Tony demands to know if he remembers them, and he remarks that he remembers all of them; there's very little in the way of that sort of insight into his mind. Tony, ironically, has the most fleshed-out dramatic arc in the film (probably his best since the original Iron Man).

 

[Exotoro]

are the accords still action after everything? im assuming so but then captain america comes up to sam's cell like there's not guards watching highly dangerous criminals

 

[orthodoxy1095]

are the accords still action after everything? im assuming so but then captain america comes up to sam's cell like there's not guards watching highly dangerous criminals

TV says yes.

 

[IconGrist]

are the accords still action after everything? im assuming so but then captain america comes up to sam's cell like there's not guards watching highly dangerous criminals

Did you miss all the knocked out guards?

 

[Quick]

Just saw it. Thought Zemo was awesome. Love that it was just an ordinary guy taking on the Avengers.

I really like the fact that The Avengers (either together or separately) have faced some serious threats, but Zemo was the one to truly fracture the team, and he's just someone with a major grudge.

 

[Sean C]

are the accords still action after everything? im assuming so but then captain america comes up to sam's cell like there's not guards watching highly dangerous criminals

Yes, they are.

I'm not sure how this is going to play out in the next Spider-Man and Ant-Man films, as this seems like it'd be a major issue for their status quos.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Yes, they are.

I'm not sure how this is going to play out in the next Spider-Man and Ant-Man films, as this seems like it'd be a major issue for their status quos.

Ant-Man was a heist movie, so doing a similar heist-style, covert mission would fit in with the Accords.

 

[BlackGhost]

I can't deal with Aunt May being hot.

Aunt May is one of the hottest females in the Marvel cinematic universe. WATTBA

 

[Cipherr]

Just because he's a super soldier and has enhanced strength, it DOES NOT mean he can suddenly become heavier and counter the lift generated by the helicopter that was already in the air.

When he jumped and SOMEHOW weighed the chopper down enough to bring it back to the pad, that whole scene lost any good-will I was willing to give it.

/shrug I can pull moments like that from just about every SH movie. It ain't real and it ignored physics just about totally.

Hell there's even a line in Civil War where I think Spiderman literally says "That shield of yours just doesn't abide by the laws of physics at all does it?" lmao

are the accords still action after everything? im assuming so but then captain america comes up to sam's cell like there's not guards watching highly dangerous criminals

You missed the scene before cap approaches the cells. It shows the guards all over the complex unconscious and sprawled about after a lost battle. Its indicated that Cap and those on his side attacked that floating facility and overpowered them all and broke out their friends.

And yes the accords are still active, which is going to change how the follow up movies have to be executed big time. Half of them are criminals and not really 'allowed' to intervene with incidents. Thats part of why I don't understand people using the criticism that 'nothing really changed'. This movie moved the dynamics of the characters and will effect future films a LOT.

 

[Garlador]

There were a couple of scenes I wish the film had that I was surprised didn't get more of a mention.

Hawkeye has been through what Bucky has; he was mind controlled to kill people and did so in Avengers 1. I wish he had called Tony on that, or been a bit more upfront with him when Tony went for the low-blow of bringing up his family. Hawkeye's appearance in the film was even "what are you doing here?" "Disappointing my kids..." He was doing the right thing, at the expense of his family, and Tony threw that sacrifice in his face.

And Peter and Tony have one HUGE thing in common; both of them are driven by GUILT. They briefly, BRIEFLY touched on it with Peter making a few comments about Uncle Ben - "when you could help someone and you don't" or something like that - that I was hoping was going to have a bigger payoff, especially with Steve and Tony's whole fight over personal responsibility (cue "great power comes great responsibility").

Even Spider-man fighting on Iron Man's side was one giant jerkass manipulation by Tony; he forces a 15-year-old kid to suit up and fight for him or he'll tell his Aunt what's going on, tells him only that Captain America and his team are dangers and needs help bringing them in, and we have Tony now bringing a child into his own personal war. Tony needs help...

I'm hoping since Iron Man is showing up in Spider-man: Homecoming that, in a reversal, Peter will be therapeutic for Iron Man. Tony's not doing well, and hasn't since Avengers 1. Civil War makes it clear he hasn't really "recovered" from the events of the previous films and he's still haunted by guilt, to the point of self-destruction and pushing people (even Pepper) away from him. Peter knows that full well, but Peter is the best hero in comics for turning that guilt into something positive, to knowing there is a responsibility to the power and gifts he has. I'm hoping Tony can see Peter as a "fresh start" and avoid the mistake of dragging him into his own personal guilt-driven world of self-destruction.

 

[Corpsepyre]

So, just watched it. Decent film. Very Marvel, is the apt thing to say here, I guess. Not better than Winter Soldier, in my opinion, however.

They really need to work on their villains. Highly under-developed caricatures, the lot of them.

The big action scene was done well, but the constant Downey Humour throughout, as I call it, brought it down a notch. I find that sort of humour very annoying, and it's over-done now.

Thought Spider-Man was cool, and that one scene with Ant-Man was terrific.

Overall, a good one-time watch, as most Marvel films USUALLY are, minus Winter Soldier, which I've seen a few times. I just found it was more compelling, minus the dumb action setpiece finale.

Critics, on the other hand, definitely blew it these last couple of months. BvS was definitely not the disaster it was made out to be, and neither was Civil War a masterpiece it's being touted as.

A good film, yes.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Hawkeye has been through what Bucky has; he was mind controlled to kill people and did so in Avengers 1. I wish he had called Tony on that, or been a bit more upfront with him when Tony went for the low-blow of bringing up his family. Hawkeye's appearance in the film was even "what are you doing here?" "Disappointing my kids..." He was doing the right thing, at the expense of his family, and Tony threw that sacrifice in his face.

Didn't even think of that. Totally could have happened.

 

[george_us]

Hate to break it to ya buddy but Black Panther's coming out February 2018.

What the...*checks Wikipedia*

Goddammit.

 

[adamsapple]

When Captain America grabs that helicopter and starts pulling it back in, I wasn't sure why the audience wasn't cheering. The moment is totally set up for it and it is great.

Look at those arms!

And if IMDB is to be believed, there is absolutely no airbrushing involved. Those are 100% genuine grade A Evan's Guns. He actually tore the one in his left arm because of the strain he was putting on it for this scene, and it shows.

 

[Rymuth]

I'm back from the second viewing. I hate to admit it but... yes... after seeing it again knowing exactly what happens... Captain America was wrong. He was wrong not because his ideology was wrong, but because he did not take into consideration the practicality of his decisions. He absolutely has a point about being wary about authority and giving up their operational freedom to a panel. But having a point is only meaningful if you can back that up with actions that support it and which make people see it your way. He had a point but went about everything in the wrong way. There were warning signs everywhere that he was making emotional decisions over rational ones, but it was made worse because he framed those decisions as ideological ones.

This doesn't mean Tony was right, it just means Steve made a bad situation worse by not adapting and not recognizing that he could de-escalate if he became the better man. Black Widow was absolutely right when she said "how we stay together is less important than us staying together" because being together would mean they could still talk things out and solve the problems together. Once they split up, everything went to shit.

I still support Captain America and his ideals, I think he is the better man at the end of it all, but in terms of his actions and reactions throughout the film, upon reflection, they were wrong and they made him and his best friends all wanted criminals, and made a large part of the world see that the Accords were necessary after all.

Very nicely put. That was cathartic to read.

Tony could've yielded too and chose not to sign, once again it was Tony's way or nothing.

I disagree. Tony tried to reason with Cap several times. During the Cap vs Tony team, Widow asked if that was the plan and he answered that they should start taking things seriously. Cap's team going all out whilst Tony's were trying to take them in.

Flashfoward to the final fight and Tony, during the throes of his grief, gave Cap two chances to stand down but he didn't.

The 'You move' speech foreshadowed it all. Cap's way or the high way.

 

[Cipher Peon]

Most people in my cinema just fanning themselves or giggling. Thank God. There's nothing more annoying than someone who nitpicks on everything while in the cinema.

I disagree hard. People nitpicking and interacting with the movie is the reason why I go to cinema and why I watch blockbusters on opening weekend. The more casual and interactive, the better! Really enjoyed the insight of the people I sat next to who all had their comments, criticisms, and notes of interest that were eloquently shared while the movie played.

Best line in the movie. Or tied with BP's 'I don't care'

One of my fav lines.

"My name is Clint."
"I don't care."
Me: "SAME"

I do not like Hawkeye.

 

[carlsojo]

So uh did anyone else get the vibe that Vision was crushing on Wanda?

 

[Bracewell]

I can't believe Zemo managed to make me go "You know what, fuck the Avengers" even for a second. He was a damn good villain. Given some things he said in the movie, and his origin, is he really not related to Hydra in any way? Did he pull off this entire plan just using the intelligence Natasha released publicly in the Winter Soldier?

And this might seem like a really stupid question, but are Martin Freeman's character and William Hurt's character related? Freeman's American accent is improving by leaps and bounds, but I wasn't sure if he said that his last name was Ross too.

So uh did anyone else get the vibe that Vision was crushing on Wanda?

Oh yeah.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

So uh did anyone else get the vibe that Vision was crushing on Wanda?

It was pretty obvious.

 

[kirblar]

I can't believe Zemo managed to make me go "You know what, fuck the Avengers" even for a second. He was a damn good villain. Given some things he said in the movie, and his origin, is he really not related to Hydra in any way? Did he pull off this entire plan just using the intelligence Natasha released publicly in the Winter Soldier?

And this might seem like a really stupid question, but are Martin Freeman's character and William Hurt's character related? Freeman's American accent is improving by leaps and bounds, but I wasn't sure if he said that his last name was Ross too.

Same last name, unrelated in the comics IIRC.