Are we still equating all the problems caused in the middle east to strickly Islam?Is Cenk Uygur still saying Maher believes 1 billion Muslims 'are bad guys'?
Are we still equating all the problems caused in the middle east to strickly Islam?
That's what happened in the last threadI am not. Don't know about you.
Whatever the outcome it is great to see them both sit down to have a real conversation
No one actually does this, except for a hardcore fringe. Could you point out where in the other thread (or any thread) this happened? I can think of maybe Hindle and one or two others. I'm not even sure about them.Are we still equating all the problems caused in the middle east to strickly Islam?
Are we still equating all the problems caused in the middle east to strickly Islam?
Islam may cause some problems in the Middle East and elsewhere. It does not cause all problems. Islam may be one factor that increases the chance of people going crazy, holding crazy views, or doing crazy things. It is not the only factor.
I mean, let's assume that Islam is the main source of the majority of problems in the Middle East. But how would something like that even be addressed? You can't force a mass deconversion of people or divorce a religion from many cultures abruptly; you'll only end up antagonizing people and push them further away from what you wanted. (Suggestions of committing genocide are even more laughable.) And combating fundamentalism without addressing the foundation of inequality, poverty, and political instability upon which it is built will only address a symptom of the issue. Any other ideology or religion could be propped up to serve the same purpose. Any beliefway could be twisted to serve an ideal. There are several underlying factors that are conducive to the problems we would like to see solved, but the approach some are taking is unhelpful at best. And usually, the Muslims that are not affected by such factors around the world are moderates or very strongly against extremism, fundamentalism, so I'm not convinced that it's a Muslim issue (or that characterizing it as such makes it easier to tackle). Otherwise, we would have never seen the historical, progressive changes in the Christian world if the problem was so simplifiable.Let me clarify the position that reasonable people often take:
Islam may cause some problems in the Middle East and elsewhere. It does not cause all problems. Islam may be one factor that increases the chance of people going crazy, holding crazy views, or doing crazy things. It is not the only factor.
Islam may cause some problems in the Middle East and elsewhere. It does not cause all problems. Islam may be one factor that increases the chance of people going crazy, holding crazy views, or doing crazy things. It is not the only factor.
Yep, all of their criticisms have been emotionally charged and intellectually lazy.I think it's a shame that some of his most prominent critics are hacks like Reza Aslan, Glenn Greenwald, and Salon writers like C.J. Werleman who refuse to engage in good faith.
That's a much more reasonable position to take than the absolute nonsense that was "Islam is the only religion that acts like a Mafia" and "Islam is a motherlode of bad ideas" illogical bullshit that was being tossed around on Maher. But it's also such a weak position that it might as well not be a position at all.
Never said it was. Just pointing out that what's being said in this thread is far far far different from the crap spewed on the Maher segment that started this thing.Harris didn't say the first quote,
and Harris' second quote speaks specifically to the unwillingness of secular liberals to acknowledge the bad ideas in Islam
That's a much more reasonable position to take than the absolute nonsense that was "Islam is the only religion that acts like a Mafia" and "Islam is a motherlode of bad ideas" illogical bullshit that was being tossed around on Maher. But it's also such a weak position that it might as well not be a position at all.
I That guy is probably the best debater I've seen since Hitchens.
See this is just a lack of understanding what is prescribed in the doctrine of Islam.
You or Harris really don't get to decide what is 'true Islam' and what isn't. And your aversion to making specific criticisms of some versions of Islam in favor of absurdly simple minded broad attacks on the whole of the faith is really mind blowing.
Not only that, but are we really going to blame everything on Islam and not:
access to education
tyrants and dictators in the 20th and 21st century
war
poverty
and so on. Correlation doesn't imply causation after all.
Never said it was. Just pointing out that what's being said in this thread is far far far different from the crap spewed on the Maher segment that started this thing.
Bad ideas in Islam or bad ideas in some interpretations of Islam? Because I have no issues at all with the second. But the first is straight up simpliistic overly generalized nonsense and a very very different statement to make than the one Chairman Yang made.
What about the people from the West that don't have to deal with those things and yet go join ISIS?
Trying to say Islam has nothing to do with some of the problems in the Middle East is as dumb as saying its the cause of all problems in the Middle East.
Not only that, but are we really going to blame everything on Islam and not:
Tell me how many Muslims are in the US and how many have left to join ISIS?
I wouldn't even include places in Europe because due to lax immigration laws, typically those individuals aren't as educated as Muslims in the US.
What about the people from the West that don't have to deal with those things and yet go join ISIS?
Trying to say Islam has nothing to do with some of the problems in the Middle East is as dumb as saying its the cause of all problems in the Middle East.
How is that Islam's fault? Islam isn't all like showing up to a dudes house and asking them to commit murder. If they are already messed up in the head, they are messed up in the head and are going to use any excuse to act those feelings out.
The Canadian terrorist dude wasn't some nice dude, he had a police record, and not ones that consists of parking and speeding tickets.
I like how if a "terrorist" commits murder - lets blame it on religion. Never "mental illness," no, that excuse is only reserved for white people who go on a murder rampage. But no, a religious dude - that guy was totally sane and just did it out of religion.
How is that Islam's fault? Islam isn't all like showing up to a dudes house and asking them to commit murder. If they are already messed up in the head, they are messed up in the head and are going to use any excuse to act those feelings out.
The Canadian terrorist dude wasn't some nice dude, he had a police record, and not ones that consists of parking and speeding tickets.
I like how if a "terrorist" commits murder - lets blame it on religion. Never "mental illness," no, that excuse is only reserved for white people who go on a murder rampage. But no, a religious dude - that guy was totally sane and just did it out of religion.
You've missed the plot completely. Harris addresses your accusations.
See this is just a lack of understanding what is prescribed in the doctrine of Islam. It is closer to the first testament (worse) than it is to the new testament.
Sam has pointed out with polls, and actual statistics that vast numbers of muslims in many countries that are considered "moderates" still believe you should be put to death or placed in prison for leaving the faith. Women are still considered second rate citizens and these are with the moderates!!!
So, yes Islam is a problem. Until there is serious reforms and reinterpretations of it's doctrines it will continue to be a problem even if all those social and economic issues are addressed.
Nobody is doing that.
That guy is probably the best debater I've seen since Hitchens, and is an unfair match for pretty much anyone.
I think Reza Aslan is interesting and has insight but he does get a bit of knee-jerk reaction to anyone criticizing Islam. For example, if you look at his response to the Maher/Harris bit on CNN, he goes off on how FGM is practiced in Christian dominated countries in Africa (which is true) . . . but he then acted is if it is not done at all in Islamic countries and that is blatantly false and he knows it. It was profoundly disappointed to hear him be so deceptive.Interesting interview. I think Cenk handled it pretty well after some early missteps. We need more of these types of extended conversations.
A side note. As someone who generally agrees with Sam, but likes to have my views challenged. I think it's a shame that some of his most prominent critics are hacks like Reza Aslan, Glenn Greenwald, and Salon writers like C.J. Werleman who refuse to engage in good faith.
The dumb generalizations come from people misrepresenting things he said.But only after having to back away from initial dumb generalizations
Son of Sam is
I think Reza Aslan is interesting and has insight but he does get a bit of knee-jerk reaction to anyone criticizing Islam. For example, if you look at his response to the Maher/Harris bit on CNN, he goes off on how FGM is practiced in Christian dominated countries in Africa (which is true) . . . but he then acted is if it is not done at all in Islamic countries and that is blatantly false and he knows it. It was profoundly disappointed to hear him be so deceptive.
Glenn Greenwald suffers from a really bad case of "blame America first" disease. It seems he can find a way to blame any problem in the world on American policy. I think he must have had issues with authority at some point and he now bashes government non-stop.
I don't know C.J. Werleman but he sounds like a jackass.