excelsiorlef
Member
Umm Dyke March has been a thing basically world wide for ages
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Chicago gay pride parade expels Star of David flags
- Thread starter phanphare
- Start date
Umm Dyke March has been a thing basically world wide for ages
TestOfTide
Banned
Doing some quick research, the fact that it is Blue does in fact have Zionist implications even if it weren't related to the Israeli flag, so I will concede that point.
Ok then. If they refuse to call out Netanyahu at all then good on the parade for kicking them out.
the second example I posted contradicts this but I remember you saying that you just didn't believe it so :shrug:
like I said before the color blue is intertwined with Judaism
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-blue-of-the-ocean-the-sky-and-the-tzitzit/
But the second example happened in the context of the first right?
ghostofsparta
Member
it's almost as if all minority groups aren't the same. Mind blowing!
taking this at face value I do not believe so
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=187012131831478&id=100015680762441&hc_location=ufi
TestOfTide
Banned
Yes, but historically the Star of David wasn't originally associated with any particular color.
The choice of a blue star of David was started by the zionist movement.
I mean, for the organizers. Plus again, she had the opportunity to think for a second and realize that regardless of her intentions this symbol is quite reasonably interpreted as a symbol of Zionism and thus put it away for that reason.
If she didn't intend it that way, then it sucks, but blame Zionists for taking the symbol, not the people reacting to it.
Why is the onus on the Jewish person to hide their symbol for fear of misinterpretation and not the onus of people responding to it to critically analyse it and realise that it is not being used in the way that is upsetting to them?
hipbabboom
Huh? What did I say? Did I screw up again? :(
Well anyone can be an effective bigot without too much effort. Now being racist is certainly also open for all to try as well but unless you have the proper infrastructure to support you, the effectiveness may vary wildly.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I've always understood pride as representing a stand for gay rights while uniting the LGBT community under a single banner. Political, yes, but now it is being used to leverage other unrelated issues. Many people openly supported the idea of removing imagery that would offend or cause distress to certain groups. I'm just saying, you can't cheer for BLM in Toronto, and then tell Palestinians to shut up in Chicago, when both instances are equally valid. Jews can still participate, they just cant carry a flag that represents oppression to a large subset of the community.
Just to be clear, I do still disagree with this on principle, but we have now set a standard that this is an acceptable complaint.
For real. I don't see how someone can be "bigotted" against an international, government protected organization that has been openly oppressing and abusing them for decades. I still think we should put such differences aside and all march together during pride, but hey, we've crossed this bridge so away we go!
What a load of crap. The Star of David is a Jewish symbol first and foremost. It is on the Israeli flag because Israel is a Jewish country. Even in that country there are a lot of Jews who don't agree with Zionism, yet will still hold that symbol dear to them.
You don't get to decide what that symbol represents. Millions of people will look at that and see a Jewish symbol, not an Zionist one.
Exactly.
The Shadow
Member
This right here.
This is incredibly disingenuous. Nothing about being Jewish means you have to fly flags with the star of David in the same position as it is on the flag of Israel.
More importantly. The onus is on the active communicator to communicate clearly. I was more specific about it earlier in the thread. Feel free to read what I said earlier.
This is the exact reason that the onus is on the communicator here. People can't get inside your head. They have no idea about why you are using a symbol. At best you're choosing to ignore the alternative meanings, a form of communication in itself.
I might claim that the BLM flag and/or representation makes me feel unsafe. On what basis would we decide that that claim is dismissible but a claim that an identifiably Jewish flag makes someone feel uncomfortable is legitimate?
Nothing about being Palestinian in ethnicity means you have to fly a Palestinian flag, either! Nothing about being gay means you even have to attend pride marches! Edit: I think the positioning of the star on the flag could be justified on the basis of aesthetics, rather than some supposed tactical motives.
From the sound of it, she did communicate clearly.
So if I fly this flag and say "I am not a Zionist", I am OK?
Raven117
Member
But you know...I've been thinking about this...It probably shouldn't surprise us and it actually shows how tone deaf society can really be. I mean, if all marginalized groups banded together, they probably wouldnt be a minority, they'd be the majority.
Further, why would one group feel truly feel sympathy for another group regardless of whether they are marginalized? In theory, why would a Zionist care about a Pride March and vice versa (unless of course the Zionist is a homosexual)?
I guess, in the end, its more ironic than anything else. It actually shows to demonstrate that the human propensity to exclude the unfamilar, the different runs exceedingly deep regardless of whether its happened to an individual or not.
Just a thought. Nothing more.
And I've explained my point several times in here.
Ok
Why do you get to decide that?
I'm not going to touch this, because this attitude is part of the problem.
Most Israelis I know that are not Zionists are uncomfortable with the Israeli flag at least.
I'm not deciding what it means, I'm pointing out plausible readings of it. One is a symbol of Jewishness, one is a symbol of Zionism/Israel. Are you really going to argue that the latter isn't a valid reading? I mean it's on the Israeli flag.
Millions of people will look at that and see a Zionist symbol as well? What's your point here?
I agree with all of this yes.
Right, she clearly communicated that she was a Zionist.
I mean that's up to the event organizers. I wouldn't say they were wrong either way, but in this case it'd just be a different issue entirely.
You're looking for some sort of magical laws to govern how we should act that you aren't going to find. The best we can do is be empathetic and take issues like this case by case. General guiding principles are the best we can get, and even those are on shaky epistemological grounds.
So my point is that there seems to be an arbitrary distinction regarding what stands as "legitimate" claims of upset.
But she was flying the flag as a representation of her Jewish identity, not of her Zionist identity.
guggnichso
Banned
Edit: Well, whatever.
Of course there is an arbitrary distinct. That's more or less how society works.
I don't think a Zionist gets to make that choice.
the Star of David represents Judaism just like the cross represents Christianity and the star and crescent represent Islam
none of us decided that because it predates all of us by a significant amount of time
it just is at this point
there are countries where Islam is recognized as the official religion of the country. there are countries where Christianity is recognized as the official religion of the country. does their every action affect the symbols used by the religion as a whole? is it just because there is only a single country where Judaism is recognized as the official religion of the country?
Not in a just and equal one. This attitude seems to endorse making one minority feel less welcome at the behest of another, which doesn't seem like a productive long-term strategy for securing rights and support.
Yes they do. I can be Jewish and a Zionist and decide that I want to represent one or another.
I think that would be a difficult thing to prove. I can't imagine there being much evidence of BLM openly oppressing a certain minority group. And as I said, I do still disagree with all this on principle, and now we can see why.
BLM vs Police -> ok, the average person would not have an issue taking a stand against the police department, and would never consider them a protected group. Pride decides police uniforms are out. Fine.
Israel vs Palestine -> Now some poor Pride organizer is faced with a dilemma of international politics. Do we side with Israel or Palestine to appease the attendees and resolve the issue of the fucking Chicago pride parade.
It's absurd that pride has been reduced to this nonsense (as it pertains to the parade, obviously it's not nonsense otherwise). I wholeheartedly agree that we should not be at this point, but we are, so what can you do?
I'm not denying it is a symbol of Jewishness, I'm well aware of that as I'm sure most people on this board are. I'm denying that for some reason that interpretation has to take precedence. That's the same issue I've brought up this whole thread that people are dancing around.
Please stop with this line of argumentation, I've responded to you on this exact topic multiple times. The answer is it probably shouldn't. But the star of David is, and you really can't argue against this without burying you head deep into the sand, also a symbol of Zionism.
If your last question is serious instead of rhetorical, then it's because of the particular history surrounding the symbol in this usage, and what it means in association with the Israeli state.
You say that there are limitations to how far we can expect our own upset to be legitimate grounds for the removal of people we disagree with from public events that we attend, and that, generally, "feeling upset" may not be such a reasonable ground.
I'm not saying this is how a particular society works. I'm claiming that societies have to use arbitrary distinctions, because we think in ways based on arbitrary distinctions. We don't have magical laws that we can appeal to in order to avoid making arbitrary distinctions. The best we can do is try to make good arbitrary distinctions.
No it's not. Zionists are not a minority in anything other than a statistical sense. Zionists do not need to be protected as Zionists. No one needs to coddle a political view about settler colonies.
Well you would want to be able to do that to get away from the bad label of Zionism in a lot of situations. Sorry, but other people are going to interpret symbols you use in light of the fact that you're a Zionist. You have no out other than not telling people.
That's hardly all you're saying with that.
CornBurrito
Member
This wasn't the Pride Parade.
But Jews are a minority.
So you prioritise the reader's interpretation over the author's intention in all of your semiotics?
Based on the pics, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with what she was wearing or the flag. It wasn't an Israeli flag, just a star of david symbol on the pride flag. And she told the organizers she was representing herself as a gay jew, and not as a comment on the israeli/palestine conflict. Bad look on the organizers part, and their whole "she confirmed she was a zionist!1!!" sounds like a hilariously transparent way of just kicking her out because other people clearly had a problem with conflating jewish people and jewish symbols with israel's agenda. Sometimes the far left goes too far.
yeah we're not going to find common ground on this so we can just agree to disagree
I mean is any abrahamic religion LGBT friendly? Like if I was gay I wouldn't want to see anything like that at our parade.
"Oh yeah our religion says homosexuality is a sin but our small spinoff denomination says its not" ok, but your denomination doesn't represent the religion.
I know Isreal is more LGBT friendly than everywhere else in that region though. So that's one good thing
"Oh yeah our religion says homosexuality is a sin but our small spinoff denomination says its not" ok, but your denomination doesn't represent the religion.
I know Isreal is more LGBT friendly than everywhere else in that region though. So that's one good thing
But, as many posters in this thread including yourself have pointed out, there is a distinction between the two. One being a minority in one way does not entitle them to protections from things unrelated to it.
Generally I think the former is more important than the later. This isn't exactly a brand new opinion either.
About what? I'm not even sure what you're disagreeing with me about.
Father_Brain
Banned
As I said above, the group she's part of, A Wider Bridge, nominally supports a two-state solution but refuses to condemn any Israeli action or policy that undermines it.
They're a reactionary, pro-status quo organization that seeks to exploit LGBTQ issues to divert conversation away from criticism of Israel's human rights record and that regularly abuses the charge of anti-Semitism to smear.critics of Israel. There's nothing progressive about them.
Yes, I believe in such limitations. I believe there is a difference between feeling upset and identifying a legitimate threat. I have my history with the Catholic Church, and would probaby have a good giggle if their iconography got booted from Pride, but I don't think that it's actually necessary to do.
They are generally good people, and if they are at Pride, participating in good faith, and not spreading a message of hate, then I believe they deserve a chance. As do Jews carrying Star of David flags, as do police in uniform.
I do not like the direction that Pride has been taking recently, but I also can't help but shake my head at some of the hypocrisy I see ("it's ok until it happens to me").
Agreed.
honestly I don't think I'll be able to continue this line of discussion with you because I find your views about how you feel Jews should express their identity to be deeply offensive
but the notion that Jews should abandon a significant part of their cultural heritage because Zionism sucks is what I disagree with, basically
What I'm tired of are those who chime into topics like this and add something about being surprised that marginalized groups (reality, an isolated incident) and expect us to then offer an explanation when they themselves haven't even done a cursory glance at the OP or other posters on the first page adding information and context.
Fact, this has nothing to do with the Pride Event. There's an issue when isolated incidents are painted as a huge community problem. It's the same vein as white people asking me, as a Black person to explain away stereotypes relating to my race. That burden is completely unreasonable and is a form of microaggression (light racism ala just racism).
It's one thing to raise issues with Police in Toronto Pride, because they have no place in pride, historically speaking vs a small incident like this.
It's antisemitism. But I just tire of minorities getting painted with a broad brush and have to answer for things that the majority would never.
Fact, this has nothing to do with the Pride Event. There's an issue when isolated incidents are painted as a huge community problem. It's the same vein as white people asking me, as a Black person to explain away stereotypes relating to my race. That burden is completely unreasonable and is a form of microaggression (light racism ala just racism).
It's one thing to raise issues with Police in Toronto Pride, because they have no place in pride, historically speaking vs a small incident like this.
It's antisemitism. But I just tire of minorities getting painted with a broad brush and have to answer for things that the majority would never.
I generally think people should be aware of the message other people receive when they try to communicate someone. I don't think that should be deeply offensive, but I'm sorry you feel that way. I'll take your feelings into account, but ultimately I think the greater good is served with this understanding. I'd like to point out that I went to decent lengths to use empathetic language in this thread with only one exception. I'm not intending this to put anyone down. I'm doing this because I think it's in everyone's self interest.
But the issue is putting the star of David in the middle of a flag is not a significant part of the cultural heritage of Jews. It is however the main symbol of Zionism and Israel. Frankly I think this would be a whole other issue if the symbol was simply offset. But it isn't, and whether out of intention, ignorance, or apathy that means something.
Is it? I grant that may be part of what is going on here, but such a simplistic answer without critical investigation doesn't help anything and is a bit ironic considering the rest of your post.
You can't make this shit up.
Which kind of makes me think someone is making this shit up to may gay people/pride look bad.
I mean pride organizers have to realize a shit ton of people get triggered/feel unsafe around openly LGBT people right? Right? Of course they do their answer is "deal with it this is who I am"
Which I would agree with, as more people are becoming accepting of homosexuality you are going to have to be accepting of more different types of homosexual people that finally feel like they can express their identity... except apparently they can't.
Which kind of makes me think someone is making this shit up to may gay people/pride look bad.
I mean pride organizers have to realize a shit ton of people get triggered/feel unsafe around openly LGBT people right? Right? Of course they do their answer is "deal with it this is who I am"
Which I would agree with, as more people are becoming accepting of homosexuality you are going to have to be accepting of more different types of homosexual people that finally feel like they can express their identity... except apparently they can't.
Why do you?
Dude Abides
Banned
The star on rainbow flag is the symbol of her specific organization, not just Jewishness. Her organization is pro Israel with an LGBT focus.
I already answered this in the thread, i.e. I didn't decide that. I'm not making any claims as to what should be see as the true, or "first and foremost" meaning of the symbol. Please read my other posts.
I took notice of that and I appreciate that, of course. I would not have engaged you for this long had you been disrespectful.
this I understand. earlier in the thread you made it seem like Jews just need to abandon the Star of David full stop. I already agreed that a blue Star of David in the center of a flag could absolutely be seen as problematic but I refuse to accept that the Star of David should be abandoned outright because of Zionism.
also I will repeat my main issue with stories like these is that Zionism has hijacked certain aspects of Judaism and tainted them for a lot of people. I accept that. I will not, however, accept that Jews need to abandon their heritage because of that.