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[ColdPizza]

This is way too common and not just in the US, police officers in any country rarely seem to be sufficiently trained to deal with aggressive mentally ill people. And yet they're the ones that are supposed to be. The woman had the worst possible luck though, the probability of getting fatally hit by a stray round through a wall has to be disappearingly small.

Police need to be taught that standard deescalation methods don't work on people suffering through a psychiatric episode, odds are it will just provoke them and trigger a confrontation. Being calm, collected and acting casually like the situation isn't tense at all is more likely to calm them down than trying to intimidate them into submission. A friend of mine has worked a lot in psychiatric emergency clinics and he's a huge, muscly, scary looking dude. He's not their first choice at all if they get a psychotic or manic patient who's acting aggressively - he's the guy they keep in reserve. Their first choice is the grandmotherly nurse in her 60s because she's the least likely person to be perceived as provocative.

I came here to post this. Thank you. It seems police only ever escalate a situation in which a mentally ill person is involved.

 

[caleb1915]

This is way too common and not just in the US, police officers in any country rarely seem to be sufficiently trained to deal with aggressive mentally ill people. And yet they're the ones that are supposed to be. The woman had the worst possible luck though, the probability of getting fatally hit by a stray round through a wall has to be disappearingly small.

The biggest portion of people injured or killed by firearms aren't victims of violent crime, most of the time it's in situations exactly like this. Stray bullets, accidental discharges, improper handling, and there are a lot of innocent people becoming victims of these situations because people don't understand that bullets keep going after you miss your target. They ricochet, bounce, and punch through walls like they were made to do, and having cops ready to shoot dozens of rounds into a suspect because they're scared of any bodily harm happening to them at all. This means their own judgement of saving themselves from even possibly being hit by a bat from one man was more important than his life, or the lives of the people in the vicinity after they decided to discharge their weapons near other residents.

It never gets considered by the police while they're firing their weapons near the side of a street, in front a house in the middle of a neighborhood, near a crowd of people at a bus stop, and anywhere in between; the people caught in between have had their lives forfeited because an officer is afraid of being physically harmed.

 

[What did he mean by this?]

I remember being in school and feeling horrible having to read stories about little kids playing in their rooms being hit by stray bullets from gang violence. They were always characterized as abominable actions by irresponisible ruthless coldhearted individuals that we were told to stay far away from.

But here when a cop does it, it becomes a "tragic accident".

 

[EGM1966]

Jesus what are US police actually taught? It clearly doesn't involve restraining possibly disturbed individuals in a sensible manner that's for sure. TBH doesn't seem to involve minimum force restraint at all these days.

 

[GaimeGuy]

They murdered 2 people

 

[GrizzleBoy]

They murdered 2 people

That's bad. Someone should do something about that.

 

[Skyzard]

How vigorous is the training and testing for police gun use again?

 

[Dabanton]

How vigorous is the training and testing for police gun use again?

Seeing as it seems every incompetent and scared of their shadow cop has one, obviously not vigorous enough.

 

[GK86]

How vigorous is the training and testing for police gun use again?

"Ok, pull the trigger. Got that? Ok, now repeat after me, 'My life and/or my partner's life, was threaten.'

Sprinkle a little crack dust if you must."

 

[Sapientas]

I fucking hate copspeak.

"resulting in the discharging of the officer's weapon", as if it somehow the gun fired itself by its own accord.

I guess they covered so many cops that it became routine to use this shitty language.
And this one is mild, most of the time they spice it up with some "victim blaming"

 

[Funky Papa]

I guess they covered so many cops that it became routine to use this shitty language.
And this one is mild, most of the time they spice it up with some "victim blaming"

I'd argue that "combatant" instead of "agressive" is already quite loaded.

 

[The Kree]

I fucking hate copspeak.

"resulting in the discharging of the officer's weapon", as if it somehow the gun fired itself by its own accord.

As if the gun fired itself seven times in this case. It's a big joke.

 

[lordfuzzybutt]

2 threads in a night.

Fuck. This is so messed up.

 

[rjinaz]

The lesson that people should be learning here is to not call the police, especially on family, unless you really feel like it's time for desperate measure. I can't say for sure how I would have handled the situation if it were my family member but what I do know is that two people are dead now.

 

[XenodudeX]

The guy had a bat. Why not use a taser or something? Jesus

 

[akira28]

2 threads in a night.

Fuck. This is so messed up.

Christmas is fucked up forever for the families involved. The officers...will they just suppress it all to cope, or justify it, and suppress it still?


This is why they are now saying to not call 911 for mental health emergencies because the police show up. How counter-intuitive is that?

 

[lordfuzzybutt]

Christmas is fucked up forever for the families involved. The officers...will they just suppress it all to cope, or justify it, and suppress it still?


This is why they are now saying to not call 911 for mental health emergencies because the police show up. How counter-intuitive is that?

Counter-intuitive and sad. Yep.

 

[Danj]

I fucking hate copspeak.

"resulting in the discharging of the officer's weapon", as if it somehow the gun fired itself by its own accord.

Do they not issue American cops with things that aren't guns, like batons or whatever? If the guy only had a bat, was it really necessary to shoot him?

 

[Zomba13]

Soooo...are tasers just not an option?

Tasers might accidentally kill the person.

Best to just use guns, that way you can be sure they are dead.

 

[shoreu]

These are trained law enforcement professionals entering a scene where they've been given information about the situation and they still manage to kill an innocent person. Meanwhile in the gun thread, ignoring the statistics, we have folks saying they'd protect their home in an imaginary invasion scenario like a more clinical John Wick.

Half of those people have never been shot at. They don't know how they'd act and they think killing a person is probably easy.

 

[Fury Sense]

option a:
- consider all police officers to be armed and dangerous

option b:
- be white, middle class+

option c:
- better police policies
- safer subdual standards
- better officer training standards
- transparency in police activity (ex: bodycams)
- fair prosecution of murderers who happen to be cops
- public education of rights & how to deal with police situations
- realign police goals and culture to focus on protecting communities

 

[Chariot]

Best option is being insanely rich. I think the bonus on that is so big that even your skin colour hardly matters that much. Fortune 500 and you're good.

 

[FormallyMegadrive]

I fucking hate copspeak.

"resulting in the discharging of the officer's weapon", as if it somehow the gun fired itself by its own accord.

It's worded that way so the general public reads it and associated the blame with the gun being faulty, not the policeman.

 

[Shredderi]

These are trained law enforcement professionals entering a scene where they've been given information about the situation and they still manage to kill an innocent person. Meanwhile in the gun thread, ignoring the statistics, we have folks saying they'd protect their home in an imaginary invasion scenario like a more clinical John Wick.

Barely, according to all the info I got when I went on to read up on police training programs in different parts of the world. The period you have to train in order to get a gun and a badge is alarmingly short in the US. It seems woefully inadequate. The results speak for themselves.

 

[Friggz]

Sounds like typical police SOP. Nothing to see here folks.

 

[Kirye]

I had a similar situation happen a few weeks ago where I was constantly being told to call the police, and I refused because I believed it could be resolved without them. It did.

After reading this I no longer have any doubts in my decision.

 

[FartOfWar]

Best option is being insanely rich. I think the bonus on that is so big that even your skin colour hardly matters that much. Fortune 500 and you're good.

You can be a mayor and theyll still shoot your dogs:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_mayor's_residence_drug_raid

 

[Nightbird]

The guy had a bat. Why not use a taser or something? Jesus

Can't go for the kill with a taser

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Reno 911 cops aren't that incompetent

 

[TheJLC]

The guy had a bat. Why not use a taser or something? Jesus

Depends. In order to use a taser A) You have to be taser certified. (Most officers are not qualified) B) Be up to date with yearly taser re-certification. C)Make sure the district has enough tasers for you. (Usually not the case) D) Make sure the taser is working. E) Meet the conditions necessary to have a successful taser deployment. (It's not point, shoot, and target goes down)

 

[Hyun Sai]

These are trained law enforcement professionals entering a scene where they've been given information about the situation and they still manage to kill an innocent person. Meanwhile in the gun thread, ignoring the statistics, we have folks saying they'd protect their home in an imaginary invasion scenario like a more clinical John Wick.

 

[Icedburden]

It is quite sad that police are hardly trained to deal with the mentally ill. If they are, it's usually in a very thinly veiled way. Sad.

In Chicago it's more like shoot black people first, ignore questions later.

Kill anything that is black. Ask questions later. That is the cops piece of shit way.

Yes, all cops are evil. The ignorance is amazing.

they don't. people blame the guns. the guns will just blame the bullets. always passing the buck.

It will ALWAYS be people passing the buck in the end.

You must be white.

Very mature of you.

 

[Boss Mog]

Reminder: Chicago police detain Americans at abuse-laden 'black site'

There was an episode of The Good Wife about that place, but I didn't know it actually existed.

 

[Chariot]

You can be a mayor and theyll still shoot your dogs:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_mayor's_residence_drug_raid

My bad then. But you still got better odds. They only shot his dogs opposed to his human family.

 

[ISWThunder]

Yes, all cops are evil. The ignorance is amazing.
.

I didn't say all cops are evil. But Chicago cops have earned a reputation for not receiving punishment for their crimes. The NY Times had a piece on it recently.

"For example, the data for 2015 shows that in more than 99 percent of the thousands of misconduct complaints against Chicago police officers, there has been no discipline. From 2011 to 2015, 97 percent of more than 28,500 citizen complaints resulted in no officer being punished, according to the files.

"although very few officers were disciplined in the years covered by the data, African-American officers were punished at twice the rate of their white colleagues for the same offenses, the data shows. And although black civilians filed a majority of the complaints, white civilians were far more likely to have their complaints upheld, according to the records."

But thanks for standing up for one of the most corrupt and racist police departments in the country. I'm sure they need your help.

 

[xnipx]

Why wouldn't they send someone in a riot suit with a shield and baton to deal with a bat wielding mentally ill man instead of some pussy beat cop ready to shoot 7 times before he pisses his pants?

 

[Subpar Scrub]

This is way too common and not just in the US, police officers in any country rarely seem to be sufficiently trained to deal with aggressive mentally ill people. And yet they're the ones that are supposed to be. The woman had the worst possible luck though, the probability of getting fatally hit by a stray round through a wall has to be disappearingly small.

Police need to be taught that standard deescalation methods don't work on people suffering through a psychiatric episode, odds are it will just provoke them and trigger a confrontation. Being calm, collected and acting casually like the situation isn't tense at all is more likely to calm them down than trying to intimidate them into submission. A friend of mine has worked a lot in psychiatric emergency clinics and he's a huge, muscly, scary looking dude. He's not their first choice at all if they get a psychotic or manic patient who's acting aggressively - he's the guy they keep in reserve. Their first choice is the grandmotherly nurse in her 60s because she's the least likely person to be perceived as provocative.

Where do you live, that you perceive the police of every country to be incompetent?

 

[Trojan X]

This is way too common and not just in the US, police officers in any country rarely seem to be sufficiently trained to deal with aggressive mentally ill people. And yet they're the ones that are supposed to be. The woman had the worst possible luck though, the probability of getting fatally hit by a stray round through a wall has to be disappearingly small.

Police need to be taught that standard deescalation methods don't work on people suffering through a psychiatric episode, odds are it will just provoke them and trigger a confrontation. Being calm, collected and acting casually like the situation isn't tense at all is more likely to calm them down than trying to intimidate them into submission. A friend of mine has worked a lot in psychiatric emergency clinics and he's a huge, muscly, scary looking dude. He's not their first choice at all if they get a psychotic or manic patient who's acting aggressively - he's the guy they keep in reserve. Their first choice is the grandmotherly nurse in her 60s because she's the least likely person to be perceived as provocative.

Disagree with the first paragraph. From what i have seen so far, the police in the uk in general are far more considerate and trained compared to the US. In general, death is the LAST resort. I have seen the UK police been in more fist and taser fights then they would use a gun. Heck even when a knife is used against them, they are 8 out of 10 do the utmost to deescalate the situation verbally first and if the subject actually attacks them, they will either do their bast to move out of the way or back off first to think of a new tactical approach, and leave tasing or defend with a baton as a level 2 option. Also, if the call they receive is anything related to family, they will hardly ever reach out to their gun and instead approach with caution because from their experience it 9 out of 10 involve a dispute that could be calmed down verbally first and if they need to apprehend a suspect in that situation then tasers would be a backup resort if they cannot handle the situation physically in numbers. Heck, 10 out of 10 times, they would chase a subject if they ran away from them, not shoot them in the back regardless if they were brushed the wrong way. Man, if the police is represented in movie form, the police in the us is like equalibrium and judge dredd, and the uk police is probably like lethal weapon without immediatelly resorting to guns when they know they have other option such as accessing the accessing first to see if any other options are valid. Anyway, my point is sorry US, you got a massive problem. If i call a UK police, at least I have confident that i am not signing any death warrant on anybody let alone myself whether they are black or white, unlike what i have seen far too frequently in the US in comparison.

 

[DroidDev]

WHAT. THE. FUCK.

 

[ehretreue.m.h]

Jeez, calls 911 for help for their relative who was experiencing mental trouble that needed help and then he and someone else end up with ALP.

Come on police, how was this dude approaching exactly that necessitates firing on him?

 

[kaizoku]

Disagree with the first paragraph. From what i have seen so far, the police in the uk in general are far more considerate and trained compared to the US. In general, death is the LAST resort. I have seen the UK police been in more fist and taser fights then they would use a gun. Heck even when a knife is used against them, they are 8 out of 10 do the utmost to deescalate the situation verbally first and if the subject actually attacks them, they will either do their bast to move out of the way or back off first to think of a new tactical approach, and leave tasing or defend with a baton as a level 2 option. Also, if the call they receive is anything related to family, they will hardly ever reach out to their gun and instead approach with caution because from their experience it 9 out of 10 involve a dispute that could be calmed down verbally first and if they need to apprehend a suspect in that situation then tasers would be a backup resort if they cannot handle the situation physically in numbers. Heck, 10 out of 10 times, they would chase a subject if they ran away from them, not shoot them in the back regardless if they were brushed the wrong way. Man, if the police is represented in movie form, the police in the us is like equalibrium and judge dredd, and the uk police is probably like lethal weapon without immediatelly resorting to guns when they know they have other option such as accessing the accessing first to see if any other options are valid. Anyway, my point is sorry US, you got a massive problem. If i call a UK police, at least I have confident that i am not signing any death warrant on anybody let alone myself whether they are black or white, unlike what i have seen far too frequently in the US in comparison.

I'd be surprised if any UK domestic ended in police killing someone like ever .....

Also I'd be confident that the police would be trained to talk people down and de-escalate a situation in a professional manner.

Of course if they were worried that a gun could be pulled out of anyone's pocket at any moment in time I'm sure they'd be a lot more cautious and reckless.

Honestly the only time you should need a gun is when dealing with fucking criminals, robbers, gangsters etc.

 

[commedieu]

Sad to see people defending america with "git! If you dont like it!" As if citizens are only supposed to give little to no damn about daily executions? And just complain about the traffic.

This country is broken at the moment. This needs an immediate solution. It is an emergency. Citizens fearing police more than terrorism, etc...To see that all met with "well bye." Just adds to the reason its broken. Its as if people want others to live in a constant state of anger and rage.

I understand that people dont grasp this because they are lucky enough not to. But take your pick, almost any metric you compare, education, health, opportunity, leaves america bested by our allies. Corruption is rampant, and government is not beholden to the people. I think someones land is taken or poisoned every week, Police are the least of the problems but it's a mindset thats passed down by the way weve let this go on.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

What would Flavor Flav say about this?

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Kill anything that is black. Say you felt threatened. That is the cops piece of shit way.

Ftfy.

They aren't even asking questions.

 

[SyenceLabb]

These are trained law enforcement professionals entering a scene where they've been given information about the situation and they still manage to kill an innocent person. Meanwhile in the gun thread, ignoring the statistics, we have folks saying they'd protect their home in an imaginary invasion scenario like a more clinical John Wick.

You can't be serious, breh.

 

[CygnusXS]

Update:

Father of 19-year-old killed by Chicago Police: Officer knew 'he had messed up'

The father of a 19-year-old man shot fatally by a Chicago Police officer Saturday morning said the cop knew he “messed up” after firing at the man and a 55-year-old neighbor who also was killed on the West Side.

Antonio LeGrier told the Chicago Sun-Times he saw the white or Hispanic officer standing on the grass 30 feet from the bodies after he heard the gunshots in the 4700 block of West Erie Street.

“F—, no, no, no. I thought he was lunging at me with the [baseball] bat,” LeGrier said the officer yelled following the shooting that claimed the lives of college student Quintonio LeGrier and Bettie R. Jones.

“In my opinion, he knew he had messed up. It was senseless,” Antonio LeGrier, 47, said of the dark-haired officer who had fired.

“He knew he had shot blindly, recklessly into the doorway and now two people are dead because of it.”

Coming barely a month after a white officer was charged with murdering 17-year-old Laquan McDonald last year, Saturday morning’s shooting that killed two African-Americans increased the pressure already on the police and Mayor Rahm Emanuel.

After learning of the double fatality, and the shooting and wounding of another man later in the day by Chicago Police, Emanuel issued a statement:

“Anytime an officer uses force the public deserves answers, and regardless of the circumstances, we all grieve anytime there is a loss of life in our city. With that in mind, I have been informed that the Independent Police Review Authority has opened investigations into each shooting, and that all evidence will be shared with the Cook County State’s Attorney’s Office for additional review in the days ahead.”

CPD issued a statement Saturday saying officers involved in the shooting — the statement did not give a precise number — “will be placed on routine administrative duties for a period of 30 days.” It noted the policy, implemented by interim Supt. John Escalante, will be the new protocol for all police-involved shootings.

That statement also extended condolences for the shooting of Jones and pledged the department’s full cooperation with the investigation by the Independent Police Review Authority.

Responding officers, according to the statement, “were confronted by a combative subject resulting in the discharging of the officer’s weapon which fatally wounded two individuals. The 55 year old female victim was accidentally struck and tragically killed. The department extends it’s deepest condolences to the victim’s family and friends.”

The elder LeGrier said his son was home for the holiday break from Northern Illinois University, where he majored in electrical engineering technology.

...

The younger LeGrier, who had been in foster care since he was four years old, was brought Friday morning by his mother to the building on Erie that his father owns, Antonio LeGrier said. The father said he invited his son to a family holiday gathering, but he chose to stay in the second-floor unit where his father lives.

Quintonio LeGrier’s mother, Janet Cooksey, said she was angry with police and wanted a personal apology from the mayor.

“When is this going to stop?” said Cooksey, who last saw her son on Friday. “My son wasn’t a thug on the street or a violent person.”

Because of psychological issues, Cooksey said he could become “hyper” and “a little loud” at times.

...

Antonio LeGrier said his son tried to bust the door open, but he kept him from breaking it down and called for police.

Soon, there was silence.

Antonio LeGrier said he then called Jones, who lived a floor below. He said he warned her, “My son is a little irate. Do not open the door unless the police arrive.”

Antonio LeGrier said Jones told him she saw his son outside with a baseball bat.

When police arrived, Antonio LeGrier said he heard Bettie R. Jones yell, “Whoa, Whoa, Whoa!”

Antonio LeGrier had reached the third step, as he made his way down from the second floor, when he heard the gunshots.

“I identified myself as the father and I held my hands out,” Antonio LeGrier said.

He said he then saw his son and Jones lying in the foyer. Antonio LeGrier said Quintonio LeGrier was still alive but Jones was not moving.

“My son had some emotional problems. Did it warrant him getting shot and killed? I don’t believe it,” Antonio LeGrier said.

Antonio LeGrier said he has since spoken with police and the Independent Police Review Authority — as well as two civil-right lawyers. Police had told him that his son was shot seven times and had called 911 before he did.

Officers responded to a call of a domestic disturbance, according to a statement from the Chicago Police Office of News Affairs.

“Upon arrival, officers were confronted by a combative subject resulting in the discharging of the officer’s weapon, fatally wounding two individuals,” the statement read.

Jones was pronounced dead at Loretto Hospital at 4:51 a.m., the Cook County Medical Examiner’s office said. LeGrier was pronounced dead at Stroger Hospital at 5:14 am.

Neighbors said Jones was shot in the neck soon after she opened the door for police.

Jones’ daughter Latisha Jones said she woke up when she heard three gunshots. She walked to the front door and saw her mother bleeding on the ground, she said.

“She wasn’t saying anything,” Latisha Jones said, who added that she could feel her mother breathing before she was taken away by paramedics.

Latisha Jones said that police shot her mother from outside the home after she opened the door.

...

As other family members nodded, she said, “Don’t open the door when the Chicago Police come. Don’t even call. They come to kill. Serve and protect? They should take that off their car and put, ‘We kill.’ Go to Iraq and fight. Serve in war, instead of this marshal law.”

Antonio LeGrier and Glover-Jennings noted that some other homes on the blocks have security cameras that might have recorded the shooting.

...

“They’re idiots,” Hatch said of the police. “All the spotlight on them and they shoot up this place? These people are out of control.”

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/...old-killed-chicago-police-officer-knew-messed

The victims:

Sam Charles
‏@samjcharles

Daughter of 47-year-old woman shot by police says she was shot opening a door for officers

https://twitter.com/samjcharles/status/680714386890190848?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

 

[besada]

I'd be surprised if any UK domestic ended in police killing someone like ever .....

Also I'd be confident that the police would be trained to talk people down and de-escalate a situation in a professional manner.

Of course if they were worried that a gun could be pulled out of anyone's pocket at any moment in time I'm sure they'd be a lot more cautious and reckless.

Honestly the only time you should need a gun is when dealing with fucking criminals, robbers, gangsters etc.

There appear to have been three officer involved fatal shootings in the UK this year. One was a gun wielding nut job who had already fired off multiple shots, one was a guy who tried to break some other guys who were being held on gun charges out of a prison van, and one appears to have been a domestic dispute gone out of control, in which the person shot had a firearm and discharged it at or around police.

 

[Milly Osworth]

Im picturing chief Wiggum types that shoot the doorbell to ring it. Cops in the US are scary.

 

[RS4-]

To be fair, according to the manual that police seem to go by these days, tasers are only for use after the suspect is already cuffed.

Either that or when the person is already dead. And then fire a few more shots, just to be sure.

Sad story.

 

[Two Words]

I fucking hate copspeak.

"resulting in the discharging of the officer's weapon", as if it somehow the gun fired itself by its own accord.

They love using the passive voice. Using an action voice is far too sobering.

"The cop shot and killed two people."