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China has won AI battle with U.S., Pentagon's ex-software chief says

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godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.

"We have no competing fighting chance against China in 15 to 20 years. Right now, it’s already a done deal; it is already over in my opinion," he told the newspaper. "Whether it takes a war or not is kind of anecdotal."

China was set to dominate the future of the world, controlling everything from media narratives to geopolitics, he said.

Chaillan blamed sluggish innovation, the reluctance of U.S. companies such as Google (GOOGL.O) to work with the state on AI and extensive ethical debates over the technology.

I remember reading an article that mentioned that China could detect masked protesters in the Hong Kong riots using AI that analyzed the gait of people from surveillance cameras on the streets. That is an unethical use of AI, but highly effective if you are an authoritarian government.


What do you think GAF? Should the US ignore ethical concerns and pursue AI/cyber security research in order to have a chance at fending off future foreign attacks? Or is this just propaganda for the US government to acquire such control and achieve totalitarian objective?
 
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Kev Kev

Member
I dunno about the war part, I don’t think either country wants that. It’s expensive and unpopular with the people. That’s all coming off a little too gloomy doomy, tbh.
 

6502

Member
Seeing how they use that technology and how shitty your govt. and social issues are, I think it is a blessing you are behind on ai.

You have killer robot drones and a fuck ton of nukes. Tik tok algorithms and 5g tech isn't going to take the usa out.

But you do need to stop printing money for your bankers and brokers and invest in your infrastructure to maintain super power status.
 

Yoda

Member
lol what AI? The article has literally no concrete examples. AI is largely a buzzword for MBAs in its current form in the industry. I work at one of the FAANG companies which is supposedly well known for its AI... I can assure you behind the scenes it's really rudimentary and not that impressive. For what it's worth (anecdote), I've worked w/ a PhDs in ML from China (he previously worked at Baidu) and it's the same story there as well.
 

Ownage

Member



I remember reading an article that mentioned that China could detect masked protesters in the Hong Kong riots using AI that analyzed the gait of people from surveillance cameras on the streets. That is an unethical use of AI, but highly effective if you are an authoritarian government.


What do you think GAF? Should the US ignore ethical concerns and pursue AI/cyber security research in order to have a chance at fending off future foreign attacks? Or is this just propaganda for the US government to acquire such control and achieve totalitarian objective?
Just gonna leave the notion that whenever former employees of the US mil make claims like this, it's psyops and usually 180 degrees backwards.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
China is already ahead of the US in many aspects of technology and military, we're just in denial ......

in Space, we just got saved by SpaceX, otherwise they would run circles around NASA and the US
So true.

A lot of people in the west still think China, India etc... are a bunch of dirt poor farmers scraping by making counterfeit products.

They are amazed when they come to US or Canada they actually got a brain, money, skills, and can pay more for a house than the average local as if a magic genie just invented them.

A lot of Americans dont even have a passport, so they've never travelled the world. What they think is what they see on TV, which is often foreign countries portrayed as scummy or run by warlords.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
“Google didn’t work the government! Now look what happened!” I know when I’m being sold something 😒
LOL.

If I was Google, unless the government contract is giant and they dont meddle with them, I wouldnt work with the government either.

If government is so keen on products, services and technology, they seem to have bottomless pockets so they can do whatever they need to do themselves. Hire their own people, make their own 5000 people AI department and do what every other organization does.... run like an efficient business on your own success.

I always find it amazing that for lots of key things like medical, utilities, building bridges and shit like that, you'd think government would be the ones running the show with awesome in house divisions doing it for sake of health and safety and cheaper because you're not being held to profiteering corporations trying to make fast money.

Yet, government never seems to be able to run divisions like this.

I never knew this till not long ago, but even things like blood test clinics (which i thought are government run clinics) can be executed by medical corporations like here where there's places called Life Labs. You'd think blood tests and analysis would be a government controlled thing. Not outsourced to a company trying to make money.
 
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Keihart

Member
Tiktok won
Season 2 Reaction GIF by Friends
 

Reallink

Member
Chaillan blamed sluggish innovation, the reluctance of U.S. companies such as Google (GOOGL.O) to work with the state on AI and extensive ethical debates over the technology.

By extensive ethical debates I assume he means trying to decide what kind of LGBTQ BIPOC the AI is.
 

Mistake

Member
So true.

A lot of people in the west still think China, India etc... are a bunch of dirt poor farmers scraping by making counterfeit products.

They are amazed when they come to US or Canada they actually got a brain, money, skills, and can pay more for a house than the average local as if a magic genie just invented them.

A lot of Americans dont even have a passport, so they've never travelled the world. What they think is what they see on TV, which is often foreign countries portrayed as scummy or run by warlords.
Lol what. The most impressive thing in china I saw was an automatic mahjong table
 

BeforeU

Oft hope is born when all is forlorn.
Yet world's most talent is still attracted to US and US companies. This is what makes USA great. If Google doesn't want to help, there are other companies like Palantir, Amazon. This is what capitalism is. China will never be the most desirable place to live.
 
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ShadowLag

Member
Just gonna leave the notion that whenever former employees of the US mil make claims like this, it's psyops and usually 180 degrees backwards.

This right here, an ex-Pentagon guy just publicly blurts out for the entire world to hear that his own side is behind China on AI tech? That's like an ex-general randomly coming out and giving Vogue Magazine the current locations of all of our dark ops teams and how armed they currently are.

Who knows why he said this, but it's definitely not as it seems.
 

PSYGN

Member
[...] extensive ethical debates over the technology.
And that right there is what I think is the key difference. They don't have near as many red tapes as we do. That comes with the cost of losing lives, but they don't care - it allows them to see the fault of their work faster and make several iterations by the time one of our stuff gets the okay. They also don't feel guilt about copying something, in fact they take pride in being able to recreate something for much cheaper. They produce so much of our goods, you'd be naive to think they aren't reverse engineering it at the same, even tossing us back a free spyware now and then. Anyway, just imagine how much more work can be done if people didn't have to waste time at meetings or be restricted to use only certain tools to get the job done. Of course they're going to surpass us in time especially in ethically guarded topics like human life.
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
We are falling behind the evil totalatarian unethical Chinese regime. Unless we want them in charge we need to become an evil totalatarian unethical regime. But it would be us, so that's ok.
 

SiteSeer

Member
my reading between the lines is that this guy doesn’t want ethics to stand in the way of turning on skynet.
 
It would be foolish not to invest in more cybersecurity measures after all of the embarrassing hacks the US suffered. Mark my words, but that will be the future of warfare.
 

Cyberpunkd

Member
lol what AI? The article has literally no concrete examples. AI is largely a buzzword for MBAs in its current form in the industry. I work at one of the FAANG companies which is supposedly well known for its AI... I can assure you behind the scenes it's really rudimentary and not that impressive. For what it's worth (anecdote), I've worked w/ a PhDs in ML from China (he previously worked at Baidu) and it's the same story there as well.
Can confirm, AI and ML right now is simply feeding the algo with countless examples, which are mostly still classified as humans in the hope that at some point something will come out of it. Cue example of a junior doctor being able to spot cancer on an X-Ray much better than any computer.
 

EverydayBeast

thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
China won’t win it the Olympic are different and you could argue the Chinese out USA on the hot seat early on but USA survived, Chinese winning AI battles is pretty significant there could be a Chinese Elon Musk out there.
Mic Drop GIF
 

Raven117

Member
So true.

A lot of people in the west still think China, India etc... are a bunch of dirt poor farmers scraping by making counterfeit products.

They are amazed when they come to US or Canada they actually got a brain, money, skills, and can pay more for a house than the average local as if a magic genie just invented them.

A lot of Americans dont even have a passport, so they've never travelled the world. What they think is what they see on TV, which is often foreign countries portrayed as scummy or run by warlords.
Boom this.

Only 1/3rd of Americans even have passports. I understand that many folks don't have the means to travel....but damn man...what does your world view even look like?

Hell, I bet its only a FRACTION of people in the U.S. have even been to China, India, and all that.
 

Thaedolus

Gold Member
Boom this.

Only 1/3rd of Americans even have passports. I understand that many folks don't have the means to travel....but damn man...what does your world view even look like?

Hell, I bet its only a FRACTION of people in the U.S. have even been to China, India, and all that.
I’ve been to well over a dozen countries and China is nowhere on my list of places I’d still like to go. I’d love to see some of the marvels as it looks like a beautiful country, but no thank you to the authoritarian regime.

And most Americans don’t need passports because if they want to experience strange cultures with good food we just head to the southern states
 

RAÏSanÏa

Member
Reads like he thinks winning is forcing companies to work with the state to develop Ai technology unethically. Something to consider about where his fraught criticisms are coming from. No doubt he had some ideas that could be valuable contributions to the work in unintended ways, regardless, perhaps it's best that he moved on.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
The government contractors will not pay for top tier CS talent. They can afford it, but they won't. FANG is paying like 400k TC for 10 years experience CS major. Lockheed is not paying that for anyone except maybe executives.

Also the way government contracts work is anathema to how ML works. ML is billions of dollars to produce some coefficients for a neural network, using all of the various open source software available and using advanced cloud infrastructure to make the data collection to ML pipeline as smooth as possible. 5 years ago working for a defense contractor I was still burning fucking source code to CDs to hand merge software diffs to our non-cloud repository.

The irony is that the government is so worried about spying that they neuter their own ability to do engineering by WAAAAY more than they lose in terms of spying. China doesn't have to steal anything and they have already crippled US defense research. You want to know why you pay so much in taxes to the military industrial complex and get so little in return? The simple answer is that the money people are not the same people who make the rules. The security people make a rule that slows down engineering by 50%? They don't give a fuck they are not the ones paying for additional people or schedule slippage. Fuck I would spend 40 hours of engineering time evaluating a choice between two $100 parts because every purchase of materials had to have a lengthy justification.
 
I remember reading an article that mentioned that China could detect masked protesters in the Hong Kong riots using AI that analyzed the gait of people from surveillance cameras on the streets. That is an unethical use of AI, but highly effective if you are an authoritarian government.

The west has the same technologies, only difference being is that we are not willing to unleash them on our own population.
Not wanting to due to ethical concerns doesn't mean that we don't have the capability.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
The government contractors will not pay for top tier CS talent. They can afford it, but they won't. FANG is paying like 400k TC for 10 years experience CS major. Lockheed is not paying that for anyone except maybe executives.

Also the way government contracts work is anathema to how ML works. ML is billions of dollars to produce some coefficients for a neural network, using all of the various open source software available and using advanced cloud infrastructure to make the data collection to ML pipeline as smooth as possible. 5 years ago working for a defense contractor I was still burning fucking source code to CDs to hand merge software diffs to our non-cloud repository.

The irony is that the government is so worried about spying that they neuter their own ability to do engineering by WAAAAY more than they lose in terms of spying. China doesn't have to steal anything and they have already crippled US defense research. You want to know why you pay so much in taxes to the military industrial complex and get so little in return? The simple answer is that the money people are not the same people who make the rules. The security people make a rule that slows down engineering by 50%? They don't give a fuck they are not the ones paying for additional people or schedule slippage. Fuck I would spend 40 hours of engineering time evaluating a choice between two $100 parts because every purchase of materials had to have a lengthy justification.
If you worked in the private sector at a big company that simply sells shit to stores (like I have) you'd love the autonomy. Whether it's making a judgement call on costs, approving yes/no or even ordering company lunch. As long as your decision is sound and not stupidly overboard one way or the other, people are mature enough to accept decisions.

You'd think big corporations would be the biggest penny pinching profiteering cheapskates ever, but that's not the case. There's always a balance between gunning for money and analysis based on a finite resource - time and manpower.

An analyst making $60,000 has the right to call the shots on approving costs to sales. Of course, there's possibility a higher level manager or director will overrule him and do it anyway "for the sake of strategy and keeping in good terms with Walmart!!!", but just about everyone has enough pull to give direction. A Marketing Assistant out of school can call the shots to teams to do this or that regarding marketing process or marketing assets.

I approve and disapprove shit all the time. Could be worth millions or $10,000. If someone wants to go to the VP whining for an overruling, go ahead, but typically people respect the answer given by anyone. And nobody wastes time on $100 parts. I even made a company policy approved by execs that for certain costs under $1000, you dont even need out departments approval. Just process the invoice and keep the back up files just in case. Nobody wants to be hit with sifting through 1000s of emails worth $40 or $400. There were times people ask for approval of like $12. No joke. Good on them for following old protocols long time ago, but it gets to a point we'll absorb low level costs as is. Were not spending manpower to analyze a $12 claim.
 
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Raven117

Member
I’ve been to well over a dozen countries and China is nowhere on my list of places I’d still like to go. I’d love to see some of the marvels as it looks like a beautiful country, but no thank you to the authoritarian regime.

And most Americans don’t need passports because if they want to experience strange cultures with good food we just head to the southern states
And if I want to experience bad food with mayonnaise culture, I just head north. :D

The world is much different now, but China is worth seeing if anything for the education. A few tourists dollars doesn't make or support an authoritative regime, but it will expand your view considerably.
 

Chiggs

Member
China is already ahead of the US in many aspects of technology and military, we're just in denial ......

in Space, we just got saved by SpaceX, otherwise they would run circles around NASA and the US

This. Sorry, folks, but Western Civilization is fat, stupid and on the way out.

If you've got kids, teach them Mandarin.
 
China won’t dominate very long as the human spirit thirsts for freedom.

LOL, look at our men now, many are confused about their own gender......meanwhile in China, they have men surplus.......many are hard core nationalists. .....they ban sissy men, gays, gender-confused men in their media.......it's just a matter of short time before they invade Taiwan (within 10 years my prediction).....and not a goddamn thing we can do about it......

and this is just within 10 years, once their GDP and their military budget surpass ours, the US will be at their mercy........
 

Wildebeest

Member
These new neural nets can do some really uncanny things, but there is a real emperor's new clothes aspect to them. Sure, you could just do a minority report thing and lock up people it tells you to without worrying about ethics, but you could also just do the same thing by throwing darts at a map.
 
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This. Sorry, folks, but Western Civilization is fat, stupid and on the way out.

If you've got kids, teach them Mandarin.

Western civilization is drunk with liberalism, multiculturalism poison.......look at us now, gender-confused, drown with social issues, fighting amongst ourselves
 

daveonezero

Banned
I have doubts the USA and China even exist in 15 to 20 years after the economic collapse they are causing.

by then encryption breaking AI won’t really matter. Hopefully things will be quite decentralized and more resilient to such things.

also the US government isn’t some moral and ethical saint. Just because in paper they aren’t working with big tech doesn’t mean they aren’t working on these things.

the strategies of China and the US are different.

The US uses corporate contractors to do most of its highly sensitive and classified projects.

the highest clearances don’t even have access.
 
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Delicieuxz

Neo Member
What do you think GAF? Should the US ignore ethical concerns and pursue AI/cyber security research in order to have a chance at fending off future foreign attacks? Or is this just propaganda for the US government to acquire such control and achieve totalitarian objective?
I think that, unfortunately, there's very little reason to expect that the US government would be dissuaded by ethical concerns even when it has no competition.
 

Kev Kev

Member
LOL, look at our men now, many are confused about their own gender......meanwhile in China, they have men surplus.......many are hard core nationalists. .....they ban sissy men, gays, gender-confused men in their media.......it's just a matter of short time before they invade Taiwan (within 10 years my prediction).....and not a goddamn thing we can do about it......

and this is just within 10 years, once their GDP and their military budget surpass ours, the US will be at their mercy........
lol calm down buddy
 

VN1X

Banned
Good, let them make our games now so we can get some actual next-gen tech up in this bitch!
 
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